66Charger Posted September 12, 2015 Share Posted September 12, 2015 Conflicting statements, however I will refrain from hijacking Noireks thread other than what were my original intentions. Be at peace. Surfs up Link to post Share on other sites
autumnnight Posted September 12, 2015 Share Posted September 12, 2015 While some are obviously brutal in their posting style, "loving the sinner but hating the sin" can be a difficult concept for some WS to grasp. We're all fallible and human, but a forum labeled "Infidelity" is by its nature a discussion of the actions, conduct, reasons and consequences of cheating. This isn't a quilting bee. There are as many thin-skinned recipients here as there are attack style posters... Mr. Lucky I Havre no troubles with that concept.....but I'm sorry, sometimes it's obvious their hate is not just at the sin. An ewmotionally intelligent person can her firmwithout being rude. And as for the BS ressuring the WS....OBVIOUSLY I am not talking about right after Dday. I'm talking about these peoples spinning years and dwecades later. This isn't about miscommunication. My posts as well as others who can see WS as eequal humans are NOT hard to understand. In short, the OP is pretty much right. I'm out. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
understand50 Posted September 13, 2015 Share Posted September 13, 2015 I Havre no troubles with that concept.....but I'm sorry, sometimes it's obvious their hate is not just at the sin. An ewmotionally intelligent person can her firmwithout being rude. And as for the BS ressuring the WS....OBVIOUSLY I am not talking about right after Dday. I'm talking about these peoples spinning years and dwecades later. This isn't about miscommunication. My posts as well as others who can see WS as eequal humans are NOT hard to understand. In short, the OP is pretty much right. I'm out. I agree with autumnnight. Too many here are just posting to hurt and not offer advice on the original question. I try, but do not always succeed to at least answer the original question. I also try and keep my comments away from them personally, but hone in on their actions. I have never told my children they are stupid, just that they did a stupid thing. We must remember that we are only getting one side of the story, and a small subsection at that. I am sure if the Adams were to write out a minute by minute account, assuming that they could, the story would change or we could point out inconsistencies. What would it matter? Their story is between them as is their reconciliation. I have seen posts that wildly talk about actions on a WS, when the BS reporting never wrote about or hinted about a action. It is just projection. In Noirek case, as a reformed WS, she and her husband are working on reconciliation. We should respect that, just as we should respect VBM wanting to find out the "why" of his and Ann's situation. His "why" wound up being devastating. We should also try and understand the terror, and pain of a WS, when they are trying to do the right thing. Telling the BS, they are, have been cheating must be a hard thing to do. The fact that it is the only way that may lead to reconciliation. Point is, there is pain on both sides, one knowing you caused the pain, and have not a good reason with being in the complete wrong, and other knowing they have been betrayed on a fundamental level. A kind work, along with solid advice, as you see it, can go along way. Beating up on a WS, just because you were betrayed, is not helpful, and in the end just causes more pain. What was asked for for in most if not all case, was advice on how to reclaim their life and morals. We should keep this in mind. My 2 cents. Noirek, as always the best of luck, and I hope you find what you are looking for. Link to post Share on other sites
autumnnight Posted September 13, 2015 Share Posted September 13, 2015 Why don't you do your husband a favor and leave so he can find a decent woman... No you don't. You never loved him or you wouldn't have been banging other dudes... You did it because you wanted to. Your marriage was fine, you just rewrite history so you could spread your legs... Pig IS a fine word. You and the OM were rutting like pigs... If your BH is smart he'll leave... No one will ever trust you again... You're not a real mother; you cheated on their father... Send your husband here so we can help HIM... Have you done x,y,z,a,c,e,u,r yet? Job? If you cared about your BH you'd quit using your work schedule as an excuse... You're not serious. I'm through wasting my time with you. I feel sorry for your husband. I feel sorry for your kids... I have read all of the above and more on forums. And I used BH because I almost NEVER see WHs talked to that way....not even by BWs Link to post Share on other sites
Dutchman1 Posted September 13, 2015 Share Posted September 13, 2015 (edited) I have no idea why blaming the BS is the MO for therapists... Its like they're all taught in Infidelity 101 that an affair is a symptom of a broken marriage. It's not. It's a symptom of a broken person.. And that if the WS was happy in the marriage they wouldnt cheat. What is really happening is the WS isn't happy with themselves and justifies selfishness to get that happiness. When (or if) the WS figures out everything they needed was in themselves to begin with and having an affair they BETRAYED THEMSELVES as well as others, well, thats a smack upside the head. I do a lot of eye rolling to myself. I believe this is the answer to the question of WHY ...etc. This is far out the best answer I ever read. I believe Noirek is not less than anybody alive, and it has no real meaning to lash out. But Bs and Ws have to be equal and respect each other. I believe the work is on the Ws to ( with help of IC and Bs ) rebuild her or himself. They can never forget, it becomes a part of who they were onetime. To never forget that the cheating took something away never to be replaced by the same, and it has altered the past, presence and the future. when you are forgiven it is time to work on forgive yourself. Long ago I came home early unexpected to find my ex-wife being the burger in a sandwich. It chanced my life completely. nothing in my life was ever as before. I made it , being a happy married man and grandpa of 5 grandkids now. The magnitude of cheating is so immense it still haunts me in my dreams sometimes. The ex is not going to be there next X-mas as she is terminal of liver failure she started drinking because of guilt. very sad as she is leaving 3 young kids behind and none of the fathers are in the picture. People have no clue when they cheat for love or a cheap trill. Noirek keep looking after yourself and your family. Dutchman 1 Edited September 13, 2015 by Dutchman1 spelling Link to post Share on other sites
Mrs. John Adams Posted September 13, 2015 Share Posted September 13, 2015 Most of the time....I have been treated with understanding and respect. Occasionally....the poster pushes too far.... I understand..what i did 32 years ago. My husband KNOWS i know what i did. Your opinions...truly do not matter. I am not here looking for help. My story is my story....don't try to rewrite my story. The parts of my story you think i did wrong....don't matter...I am WAY past all of that. John and i are truly in a very good place. We do not need to be fixed. We are well aware we did many things wrong...but do not waste your time trying to fix us. I am not subservient...I am not abused....I am not living in pain ...I am not suffering. John treats me like a princess...and i treat him like a king. We love and respect each other...and we place the needs of each other above our own. I am a VERY lucky woman. If I have given the impression i am sad and in pain ...i apologize.... when we trigger...when we think about the affair...we are sad...because more than anything we wish we could undo it....but we live a wonderful life. We are deeply in love, sexually active, we have many blessings....children, grandchildren, good health...we travel..to places many only dream of. We have a beautiful home and good jobs....but more than all this...we have each other...John is my best friend...my lover....and my provider....for 43 years. I am here to try to help others...especially other ww who are trying to find their way. I am not here to pass judgement. In the long run...what i think is irrelevant. I don't like to see others being attacked for any reason...but i also feel it is important that people are honest. 2 Link to post Share on other sites
nightmare01 Posted September 14, 2015 Share Posted September 14, 2015 nightmare...john and i were talking about this today...there is an article in the wall street journal today about affairs. It was quite interesting. i told John everything...in retrospect...I wish i had not... but then i think even though it hurt...maybe it is good that he knows everything and that he knows i withheld nothing. Trickle truth must be very difficult to overcome....and i sympathize more than words can say for the BS....I am a fixer...and it makes me feel so bad when i cannot fix it for others. It took me such a long time to understand what it was that john needed....and i so want other Ws to do better than i did i hope your wife is giving you all you need...and i understand if you lash out...just remember ...the WS here are not YOUR ws i understand and try not to take it personally....but sometimes it does hurt....and i realize how very lucky i am Your post shows a level of empathy and understanding that in my experience is very rare among WS. You're a good person who has obviously worked very hard with your husband. In the end though the healing that is necessary for the BS has to come from the BS. Regardless of whether or not we stay in the marriage our healing is our responsibility. Just as we BS did not "make" our WS have their affair, our WS cannot by way of their actions or words make us heal. The work the WS does or does not do only has to do with whether or not the marriage continues. If a WS does not display empathy and do the work necessary to fix themselves so they are at least somewhat safe to trust again, then it's likely the marriage will end. Conversely if the WS does discover empathy within themselves, if they tell the truth and by so doing show respect for their BS in allowing to make their own decision, it becomes more likely the marriage will continue.. and although that marriage will never be the same it can still be good. Our WS can't fix us, just as we can't fix our WS. We are each responsible for our own healing. Again - I'm very impressed by your post. I wish you and your husband well. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
autumnnight Posted September 14, 2015 Share Posted September 14, 2015 Your post shows a level of empathy and understanding that in my experience is very rare among WS. You're a good person who has obviously worked very hard with your husband. In the end though the healing that is necessary for the BS has to come from the BS. Regardless of whether or not we stay in the marriage our healing is our responsibility. Just as we BS did not "make" our WS have their affair, our WS cannot by way of their actions or words make us heal. The work the WS does or does not do only has to do with whether or not the marriage continues. If a WS does not display empathy and do the work necessary to fix themselves so they are at least somewhat safe to trust again, then it's likely the marriage will end. Conversely if the WS does discover empathy within themselves, if they tell the truth and by so doing show respect for their BS in allowing to make their own decision, it becomes more likely the marriage will continue.. and although that marriage will never be the same it can still be good. Our WS can't fix us, just as we can't fix our WS. We are each responsible for our own healing. Again - I'm very impressed by your post. I wish you and your husband well. So basically unless a WS (notice how you didn't include the F) makes certain that whatever they say reiterates how awful they are/were, they are not showing the appropriate level of empathy. If a WS ever, even years and years down the road, implies that maybe their penance should be over...they don;t have empathy. Or they CAN ask about being treated equally as long as they add the "I will always be a cheater" disclaimer somewhere in there. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
katielee Posted September 14, 2015 Share Posted September 14, 2015 I think, after a time, the actions should be separated from the cheater. I certainly don't want my husband or myself to have the identity as a cheater for 4 months of crap in our life. Heck, we're 50 and have been together 30 years. If the WS has healed themselves and not stuck in shame (shame being very selfish) they should be able to talk about the affair with the emotion of it happening to someone else. They are no longer that person. Therefore, when the BS brings it up the WS should be ok with it. The BS hurt goes on for a long time - they'll likely feel some pain about the situation for the rest of the marriage/their life even. I see nothing wrong with the BS bringing up something 30 years later and the WS expressing such sorrow that this it happened. They may no longer be that person who made that choice (And I feel very strongly that people evolve and become new people - often!) but why on earth wouldn't they offer compassion, empathy and understanding to the person they hurt. What the heck skin is it off their back? I think that is what Mrs JA is talking about. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Mrs. John Adams Posted September 14, 2015 Share Posted September 14, 2015 anytime we hurt someone else....regardless of who it is...as responsible adults...we should be sorry we hurt them.Why should it be any different if it just happens to involve infidelity and our spouse? Empathy...is a very humbling emotion....and if we have empathy for the pain we caused our spouse....it is a humbling experience. We need not REMAIN in the depths of empathy 24/7 the rest of our lives....but we can certainly be reminded how far we have come in our healing. I do not think about my affair often...and my husband does not remind me of it often. But when we do think about it...it still makes us sad that it happened. We don't stay in the sadness....we move on. Life is full of peeks and valleys, highs and lows...happiness and sadness....We live life the best way we know how....we fill it with love....and we don't dwell on the things that make us sad. No one wants to be reminded of the ugly parts of their lives...but we all have those moments in life we wish we could redo. Hopefully, we learn from those experiences and we become better and make better choices. I am defined this way...I am a wife, mother, grandmother, daughter, sister, aunt, cousin and friend....and i am a Christian.....I am not perfect...but i do my very best to not cause anyone else pain as i journey through this life. I make mistakes...and i take responsibility for them....but i am not defined by my mistakes...I am defined by what i do right. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
autumnnight Posted September 14, 2015 Share Posted September 14, 2015 I'm honestly asking....have I EVER said a WS should not be sorry, should forget about their actions, etc. etc. etc. I don't understand why we keep needing to remind people that they should be sorry. We already know this. This is what I would love to see on a forum: A FWS being able to assert themselves without having to recite the mea cupla disclaimer Other posters responding to that without having to make sure the FWS is "still sorry" and hasn't forgotten. Link to post Share on other sites
Mrs. John Adams Posted September 14, 2015 Share Posted September 14, 2015 What do you mean...assert themselves? Link to post Share on other sites
Mr. Lucky Posted September 14, 2015 Share Posted September 14, 2015 Why don't you do your husband a favor and leave so he can find a decent woman... No you don't. You never loved him or you wouldn't have been banging other dudes... You did it because you wanted to. Your marriage was fine, you just rewrite history so you could spread your legs... Pig IS a fine word. You and the OM were rutting like pigs... If your BH is smart he'll leave... No one will ever trust you again... You're not a real mother; you cheated on their father... Send your husband here so we can help HIM... Have you done x,y,z,a,c,e,u,r yet? Job? If you cared about your BH you'd quit using your work schedule as an excuse... You're not serious. I'm through wasting my time with you. I feel sorry for your husband. I feel sorry for your kids... When WS post A-related activities ranging from entertaining the AP in the marital bedroom while kids sleep in another part of the house to leaving small children unattended so they can grab a "quickie" in the driveway, you see "I feel sorry for the children" as an inappropriate response ? Again, we're not discussing model trains here, there are people's lives (sometimes literally), happiness and futures at stake. By definition, the actions involved are deceitful, immoral and dishonest. It's as much incumbent on the OP in any thread to receive the feedback with an open mind as it is on the respondent to parse it correctly. Infidelity isn't a sunshine and rainbows topic... Mr. Lucky 1 Link to post Share on other sites
autumnnight Posted September 14, 2015 Share Posted September 14, 2015 When WS post A-related activities ranging from entertaining the AP in the marital bedroom while kids sleep in another part of the house to leaving small children unattended so they can grab a "quickie" in the driveway, you see "I feel sorry for the children" as an inappropriate response ? Again, we're not discussing model trains here, there are people's lives (sometimes literally), happiness and futures at stake. By definition, the actions involved are deceitful, immoral and dishonest. It's as much incumbent on the OP in any thread to receive the feedback with an open mind as it is on the respondent to parse it correctly. Infidelity isn't a sunshine and rainbows topic... Mr. Lucky Where in the hell did I stay infidelity was rainbows and sunshine People have to make a real effort to misunderstand me this badly Link to post Share on other sites
autumnnight Posted September 14, 2015 Share Posted September 14, 2015 And by assert themselves I mean have the audacity to want to be treated like a human being after a few years Link to post Share on other sites
ladydesigner Posted September 14, 2015 Share Posted September 14, 2015 Lady Designer I am always interested in your POV . I know you are suffering and I am very sorry, and it seems like it's been going on for some time. May I ask if you have a time or date that you can point to where you call time on this? You've been through so much and life is short. Hug I do I am planning on giving this one more year and then I'm going to file. Link to post Share on other sites
Mrs. John Adams Posted September 15, 2015 Share Posted September 15, 2015 autumn...one question...treated like a human by whom? Their spouse? or the people posting here? Link to post Share on other sites
autumnnight Posted September 15, 2015 Share Posted September 15, 2015 autumn...one question...treated like a human by whom? Their spouse? or the people posting here? It doesn't matter. If its this hard, then it's already pretty clear. Link to post Share on other sites
nightmare01 Posted September 15, 2015 Share Posted September 15, 2015 IMO Empathy is necessary from the WS because it could be an indicator of whether cheating will happen again. Lack of empathy, again IMO, is an important human characteristic - without it I believe the step to sciopathy and narcissism is a short one. Frankly, who would want to be in a relationship with a narcissist? I'm unsure what to say about the F (former) annotation. You say that after years the WS becomes a FWS.. but years don't matter - it's what you do during those years that may apply that annotation, making a WS into a FWS instead. Again the WS may be doing XYZ, when the BS needs to see ABC. So just doing what they think is right may not be working.. and many BS are wanting something the WS may not be comfortable doing.. for example, complete disclosure of everything that happened could be a BS requirement, but the WS may be uncomfortable giving those details and so will avoid, or minimize, or "forget", or lie. A WS in this situation may argue they are doing "everything" and so deserve the "F" annotation, but what they are doing is not working. The "F" seems unimportant to me. My past is part of who I am, some.. ok.. a lot of it I'm not terribly proud of. So am I former (whatever)? No. I am just not doing those things now. Are alcoholics ever former alcoholics? Are smokers ever former smokers? Are drug addicts ever former addicts? No, no, and no. They are addicts that are just not currently feeding their addiction. I don't know what to do with the F annotation. To me it doesn't matter. Just pay attention to the now - don't cheat anymore now. There's no guarantee that someone won't cheat. Either a repeat affair, or another person who never had an affair - they could both cheat. Anyone can cheat. I've never cheated in any relationship ever, and yet it's possible for me to cheat tomorrow. My WW had a LTA, she swears she will never cheat again, and I hope she's right, but I know that there are no guarantees. So as I said, I don't understand the whole F annotation. Link to post Share on other sites
nightmare01 Posted September 15, 2015 Share Posted September 15, 2015 I should add that empathy is necessary for the BS - because if they want to stay in the marriage or have any sort of civil relationship with their WS, they need to use empathy and not constantly rub their WS nose in what they did. Link to post Share on other sites
Mr. Lucky Posted September 15, 2015 Share Posted September 15, 2015 Where in the hell did I stay infidelity was rainbows and sunshine You didn't. I said it to underline the fact that a WS is going to receive feedback critical of their actions and chosen path. You seem to be identifying those posts as ad hoc personal attacks when that is neither the purpose nor the intent... Mr. Lucky Link to post Share on other sites
autumnnight Posted September 15, 2015 Share Posted September 15, 2015 I should add that empathy is necessary for the BS - because if they want to stay in the marriage or have any sort of civil relationship with their WS, they need to use empathy and not constantly rub their WS nose in what they did. That is one of my points. At some point, empathy has to go both ways, or it ISN'T a marriage. It is a legal bond where one person is scum and the other never lets them forget it. When I created that list of things I have heard written to WS, part of my point was motive. Most of those things are NOT going to actually HELP a WS; they will just put them on the defensive or alienate them. And most people who understand anything about interactions with people know this. So my question is this: can we REALLY say our motive is helping the WS when we make those kinds of statements or call them names? Probably not. So what IS the motive when we do that? That is what I think we sometimes need to get honest enough to answer. If posting to a WS triggers that much misplaced anger....then IMO the answer is to just have the self-control not to post to someone you are going to feel compelled to call names and attack. It's not that hard. And no, that does not mean hand-holding and coddling. There IS a middle ground. If someone doesn't have the communication skills to find it, I'm not sure what to tell them. Finally, bottom line, there is a time, when one has crossed the line, to say "I'm sorry. I went too far." I have yet to ever see a poster have the humility to do that. Ever. Link to post Share on other sites
Mrs. John Adams Posted September 15, 2015 Share Posted September 15, 2015 I have been apologized to many times by bs who let their emotions get the best of them. This is an emotional place...and sometimes we get frustrated, sometimes we are sad, and sometimes we get angry. If it crosses the line report it. Let the moderators handle it. I have seen posters go too far....both ways. While we need to be compassionate we need to be honest. I think when a WS feels they are ready to place the f in front of it...it is theirs to do so...and no one else to question it. I have had posters tell me I am not a fww...because I did not do things the way they think I should have....so I understand what you are referring to. But quite frankly...as long as my husband knows I am a fww..that's all that matters. I have not seen anyone on this thread be mean or disrespectful to anyone else. Link to post Share on other sites
autumnnight Posted September 15, 2015 Share Posted September 15, 2015 For me, I think it is a general trigger that is bigger than this thread. I have this need to see acknowledgement of fact when it comes to hurting others. That is why, even though I know some very good experts disagree, I would HAVE to see remorse to recover. It is very important to me that if I KNOW I have hurt someone, I acknowledge it and apologize and try to learn to do better. I have a need for others to do the same when they KNOW they have hurt me. I grew up with parents who - while wonderful - NEVER did this. IF they apologized at all, it was "I'm sorry YOU were hurt." Mostly if I dared to mention a hurt, they would go way to the extreme: "I guess we're just awful parents! I guess you just don't need any correction because you know EVERYTHING!" Then I married someone who caould not be wrong....unless he also pointed out how it was my FAULT he was wrong, and he was only reacting to ME. Then I found myself in an online environment where people would go to any length necessary to avoid apologizing and quash any point of view they didn't like...up to and includling offline tactics. So when I am on a thread where I see people doing gymnastics to justify the rude and hurtful treatment of others - even WS - it triggers the heck out of me. Is it THAT hard to say: you know, maybe I DO go too far at times. I'm sorry about that. As a society in general, we have forgotten how to apologize and how to be humble. Link to post Share on other sites
66Charger Posted September 15, 2015 Share Posted September 15, 2015 That is one of my points. Finally, bottom line, there is a time, when one has crossed the line, to say "I'm sorry. I went too far." I have yet to ever see a poster have the humility to do that. Ever. I know of a poster, who pmd me and said "I am sorry, I went to far" Her name is autumnnight. 2 Link to post Share on other sites
Recommended Posts