Who pays on the first date? - CNN article

[Shining One]

When men treat their date, it's typically conditional on the woman ordering sensibly. No woman worth her salt would rack up a dinner bill 5x the man's by consuming FIVE drinks to his one, and then allow him to pay for her.

Unfortunately, not all women follow this rule. Neither of them even reached for their purses.

[Els]

Unfortunately, not all women follow this rule. Neither of them even reached for their purses.

 

Why do you have to wait for them to reach? If you don't want to pay for them, then just tell the waiter you are paying separately, and pay your share. Take some action, don't just go along with it and then complain about being taken advantage of after.

[Els]

Can you imagine what a thread on here would be like if a guy said that he asked a girl out on a date, then refused to pay for her? At the very least, that guy probably isn't getting a 2nd date unless she thinks he's very attractive. .

 

Why do you even want a 2nd date with a woman who orders 5 drinks to your one and then doesn't even make a move to pay her share? It's not even about the drinks anymore, it's about her character. When you go out with someone who's treating you (especially if it's a person you don't know very well), basic manners states that you don't rack up a bill 5x of theirs. If you do, then you insist on paying your share. To do otherwise is pretty inconsiderate.

Edited September 13, 2015 by Elswyth

[Els]

Good advice....to keep a guy single and dateless

 

Meh, most of the women I know are considerate enough to keep the bill reasonable when they are treated on a date. And mind you this is from a culture where it's pretty much expected that the guy will pay and waiters don't even ask him whether or not he's paying for both.

 

But if you people believe that all women behave like the one in Shining One's example, it's no wonder there's so much fiery debate on this topic. Carry on...

[readynow]

And since you're knocking down this fat little £49/hour ($75.60 USD, or $3k/week, $157k/year) and you're just banking it while the guy spends, spends, spends... for the pleasure of being in your company?

 

Since we're talking about me personally, my guy's 'spend' is a minute amount compared to what he earns. That amount is loose change to him. Can you compare it to the thousands his friends spend on a Friday night drinking and gambling etc? I would say I was a very cheap alternative! The amount i'm paid is not even near comparable to his. But really, it's not even about the actual figure he spends. What if I were with a poor guy? Would I expect the same? No, and I explained that above. £60 or £7 is all the same to me if I'm with a great guy:love:. He's happy and our relationship is very give and take. Last Thursday, I helped him with his grocery shopping because he's been away on business and his mom would be at his for a few days before he returned. I ran into a nosy aunt at Waitrose and made the mistake of mentioning that I was helping my man with his shopping. She looked at me angrily and warned me to stop letting men take advantage of my generosity Obviously, I explained the situation:D

 

 

 

Whistles. I'd love to earn that amount per hour, and be in a relationship with a woman that pays for most of our dates, costing her £60 (~$100 USD) per week, because she derives pleasure from...

 

Also guys, just to correct any wrong impressions, when I say my hourly rate is £49/hr, it's not like I'm rich or anything. I'm working in a new lab where the leads have to be self employed and charge an hourly rate instead of a salary. That also covers the hiring of your own equipment which must do in order to get accurate samples, assistants to type things up etc (yawn) So, yeah, my actual take home is less than that. I only said that to explain that my time is very valuable and precious. I'm explaining because 'someone' was asking why I was being boastful.

 

Anyway, I don't think I have anymore to add to this debate. I think we should all be happy to do what make us happy and date people we have things in common with. I love your ways of thinking though, so carry on! All good!

[Shining One]

Bottom line, men get pissed when we pay for an expensive night out for a girl who was never interested in us to begin with. Whenever I hear a guy complaining about paying for a date, that is the reason. It's one thing to pay for a date that has a chance of going somewhere, and another thing entirely to pay for some girl who knew immediately she wasn't into the guy, but still ordered a ton of stuff and made no effort to chip in.

This is what it comes down to. If things had progressed with those women, the cost would not have bothered me. I have no problems with spending money on women who are actually into me.

Meh, most of the women I know are considerate enough to keep the bill reasonable when they are treated on a date.

This is likely a regional or cultural thing. None of the women I've actually ended up in relationships with or kept as friends behaved like this. Like me, they did not grow up in this area.

But if you people believe that all women behave like the one in Shining One's example, it's no wonder there's so much fiery debate on this topic.

I certainly don't have a large enough sample size to draw any conclusions, but most of the women who I dated from OLD who were "born and raised" in this area behave like this. Heck, a group of my female coworkers are "single for Happy Hour" almost every Friday.

[autumnnight]

I don't know where you're from, but if a man makes it clear he's paying, I ALWAYS choose from the lower priced end of the menu. If he wants to pay for that date, I always thank him and tell him I'd love for it to be my treat next time (and I mean it)

 

However, threads like this make me paranoid. None of the IRL men I know seem fixated on this or seem to feel the way many of you LS men feel about women....but maybe they do? Maybe they are great on the date, and then they go home and rant online about what a greedy beeyotch I am?

 

Maybe dating isn't for me...

[carhill]

IME, in general, men don't discuss such topics, especially among other men IRL because men are competitive and seek to dominate and out-do each other as a function of social dominance. However, the equations do run through our mind. For myself it was generally after pulling off the greasy coveralls, climbing into the shower to clean up for a date and figuring how much of my day's labor would be spent on a stranger I wanted to get to know better. That's really what it boiled down to. Run the equation, make a decision and move on.

 

The last first date I went on, actually a fairly modest date, would have bought groceries for the cat and myself for a week. Such equations may be irrelevant to folks with plenty of disposable income where dating is WAM but for those of us who aren't in that situation it's on our mind, even if not widely discussed.

 

I get a taste of the other side, something I've rarely tasted, when wealthy friends treat me because they like my company. Some even get mad when I offer to pay for my share, or more sneakily, retire to the lavatory and pay the bill on the way back to the table. Still, I gotta admit it does feel pretty good to get treated. I hope that's how the ladies felt when I took them out on dates, whether they liked me or not.

[mrldii]

I don't know where you're from, but if a man makes it clear he's paying, I ALWAYS choose from the lower priced end of the menu. If he wants to pay for that date, I always thank him and tell him I'd love for it to be my treat next time (and I mean it)

 

However, threads like this make me paranoid. None of the IRL men I know seem fixated on this or seem to feel the way many of you LS men feel about women....but maybe they do? Maybe they are great on the date, and then they go home and rant online about what a greedy beeyotch I am?

 

Maybe dating isn't for me...

 

I'm with you, autumn...and not just limited to the "Who Pays?!?" debacle. Since discovering online discussion boards, I've often wondered if "the views being expressed" are simply those of disgruntled/previously-burned/socially-awkward men (who would frequent anonymous, virtual venues for their social interactions)

 

OR

 

if the anonymity afforded by online discussion boards allows for more candor and so these men ARE simply saying what is going through the minds of each and every man I encounter on dates in the real world, as they smile, nod, and pleasantly chat with me

 

all the while such venom, hatred, and bitterness is seething through their veins, just waiting for the *right* moment to be shared, with a vengeance.

 

[Shining One]

I don't know where you're from, but if a man makes it clear he's paying, I ALWAYS choose from the lower priced end of the menu. If he wants to pay for that date, I always thank him and tell him I'd love for it to be my treat next time (and I mean it).

This I can appreciate. I wish I had met more women who did this.

However, threads like this make me paranoid. None of the IRL men I know seem fixated on this or seem to feel the way many of you LS men feel about women....but maybe they do?

I'm curious. What conclusions are you drawing about how I feel about women from my posts?

Maybe they are great on the date, and then they go home and rant online about what a greedy beeyotch I am?

I doubt they are complaining about you since you're actually being considerate and offering to cover the next date.

[bachdude]

I don't know where you're from, but if a man makes it clear he's paying, I ALWAYS choose from the lower priced end of the menu. If he wants to pay for that date, I always thank him and tell him I'd love for it to be my treat next time (and I mean it)

 

However, threads like this make me paranoid. None of the IRL men I know seem fixated on this or seem to feel the way many of you LS men feel about women....but maybe they do? Maybe they are great on the date, and then they go home and rant online about what a greedy beeyotch I am?

 

Maybe dating isn't for me...

 

Judging by this post, autumnight, I doubt any sane guy is going to go back and rant about you.

 

If a guy asks out a woman, he should pay. It was his invitation and therefore his treat. If a women said to me, after the first date, "I'd be happy to treat next time", I would probably still insist on paying, but it would be a major + + for me. Not because I care so much about money, but because it is such a considerate attitude.

 

Do keep in mind, some of us have had girlfriends that ran up our bank accounts so it is a sensitive issue for us (even though it is our fault for not setting proper boundaries), as are some issues sensitive for you from your past.

 

But the problem is hateful people then go on generalize and stereotype an entire gender from their limited experiences. Forums have a disproportionate number of posters that fit into this category, in my opinion.

[No Limit]

I find it truly fascinating that this is such a big topic in the US. In Germany everyone pays for themselves and even then it's hard to get a guy to spend some money for himself; last time I decided to hang my chin out there and asked if he wanted to maybe drink some coffee at Starbucks he said "Nah, too expensive". Well, no offense, but if someone doesn't have 4€ to spare for a cup of coffee...

[loveflower]

I don't know where you're from, but if a man makes it clear he's paying, I ALWAYS choose from the lower priced end of the menu. If he wants to pay for that date, I always thank him and tell him I'd love for it to be my treat next time (and I mean it)

 

However, threads like this make me paranoid. None of the IRL men I know seem fixated on this or seem to feel the way many of you LS men feel about women....but maybe they do? Maybe they are great on the date, and then they go home and rant online about what a greedy beeyotch I am?

 

Maybe dating isn't for me...

 

ya...guess dating is not for me either.

 

Personally I don't even feel comfortable that anyone spends money on me. but if a man didn't even have the chivalry and generosity...the man just looks very diminutive to me...not manly

[salparadise]

I'm with you, autumn...and not just limited to the "Who Pays?!?" debacle. Since discovering online discussion boards, I've often wondered if "the views being expressed" are simply those of disgruntled/previously-burned/socially-awkward men (who would frequent anonymous, virtual venues for their social interactions)

 

OR

 

if the anonymity afforded by online discussion boards allows for more candor and so these men ARE simply saying what is going through the minds of each and every man I encounter on dates in the real world, as they smile, nod, and pleasantly chat with me

 

all the while such venom, hatred, and bitterness is seething through their veins, just waiting for the *right* moment to be shared, with a vengeance.

 

 

I think it's a mixture, not one or the other. There are a lot of people who simply do not participate in online forums, and I'd guess their perspectives represent a wide spectrum. There are probably a few who use these discussions to unleash pent up frustrations and are overly zealous in their use of words, and they might be a bit overrepresented here.

 

But I believe most are at neither extreme and just like being able to talk about the stuff that is unmentionable in other contexts... same for the ladies. I do think it's interesting to see how widely varied the viewpoints are.

 

I tend to presume that most people, men and women, see both sides of most issues and have viewpoints within one standard deviation of the mean. So the forums are a constant reminder that one should not assume much, pay attention to social cues, and communicate in subtle ways to avoid misunderstanding while not engaging in awkward conversations IRL.

 

I dated a woman most last year who had a high sense of entitlement and in the context of this thread was a user. So that is still occupying my consciousness and caused me to reevaluate. In fact, I'm firmly in 21st century mode these days... no intention of going back to the Victorian era anytime soon.

[Robert Z]

all the while such venom, hatred, and bitterness is seething through their veins, just waiting for the *right* moment to be shared, with a vengeance.

 

 

I doubt it. But a lot of women do think nothing of allowing a man to spend a small fortune when she really has no interest beyond what she can get. This is why I have no problems paying for sex. I always paid anyway. But now at least I don't get a bunch of attitude on top of it.

 

Course when I was dating it was automatic that the man paid for everything. And that was fine as long as the woman was being sincere. In fact I would feel strange having a woman pay.

Edited September 14, 2015 by Robert Z

[mrldii]

I doubt it. But a lot of women do think nothing of allowing a man to spend a small fortune when she really has no interest beyond what she can get. This is why I have no problems paying for sex. I always paid anyway. But now at least I don't get a bunch of attitude on top of it.

 

Course when I was dating it was automatic that the man paid for everything. And that was fine as long as the woman was being sincere. In fact I would feel strange having a woman pay.

 

 

We are going waaaay off the topic of the article, here, but you since you quoted me to take exception to one part of my post...

 

I have been a woman for the entire 55 years of my life and, during that very, very long time, I have had numerous female friends, with whom I discuss pretty much everything.

 

I have never heard of this phenomenon, that is so frequently mentioned in online discussions, of the preponderance of women who have jobs, cars, pay rent/mortgages, and can afford clothing for dates,

 

but must rely on men to purchase their food for them, lest they starve to death. Do they sit in front of restaurants, well-dressed and well-coifed, holding a sign that says: "Will date for food"? If not, how do you men find these women?

 

[Taramere]

I think it's a mixture, not one or the other. There are a lot of people who simply do not participate in online forums, and I'd guess their perspectives represent a wide spectrum. There are probably a few who use these discussions to unleash pent up frustrations and are overly zealous in their use of words, and they might be a bit overrepresented here.

 

But I believe most are at neither extreme and just like being able to talk about the stuff that is unmentionable in other contexts... same for the ladies. I do think it's interesting to see how widely varied the viewpoints are.

 

Online dating probably plays a major role too. Back when I used to date (I cannot abide the notion of online dating, but that's what everybody seems to do now) when you went out with somebody, there was generally already some interest on both sides. I think in that scenario, people are less likely to be focusing on issues like the cost of the date - more likely just excited about spending some time with a person they feel optimistic about and have chemistry with.

 

Plus people who are doing online dating seem to meet up with so many "prospects". It's probably like the difference between applying for your dream job, and spamming 20 different companies with your CV. You're not going to resent the cost of the stamp to send off the application for your dream job. If you don't get the job, you're probably going to be bitterly disappointed - but you're not going to be thinking "damn it, I really resent having spent money on that stamp". The cost of the stamp would be the last thing on your mind.

 

But the person spamming all those different companies and getting nowhere...they're going to start thinking about and resenting the postage costs.

[Timshel]

Online dating probably plays a major role too. Back when I used to date (I cannot abide the notion of online dating, but that's what everybody seems to do now) when you went out with somebody, there was generally already some interest on both sides. I think in that scenario, people are less likely to be focusing on issues like the cost of the date - more likely just excited about spending some time with a person they feel optimistic about and have chemistry with.

 

Plus people who are doing online dating seem to meet up with so many "prospects". It's probably like the difference between applying for your dream job, and spamming 20 different companies with your CV. You're not going to resent the cost of the stamp to send off the application for your dream job. If you don't get the job, you're probably going to be bitterly disappointed - but you're not going to be thinking "damn it, I really resent having spent money on that stamp". The cost of the stamp would be the last thing on your mind.

 

But the person spamming all those different companies and getting nowhere...they're going to start thinking about and resenting the postage costs.

 

An analogy I agree with.

 

When did dating become so complicated? What has happened that people can't wait between dates to ask someone out? Then they become overwhelmed with the cost(s) of dating?

 

Lot's of dates with no result will equal some resentment of money not spent wisely. As any impulsive spending will make regret, no?

 

I don't online date and have never but from reading threads regarding who should pay and what has become of the expenses makes me wonder why people subject themselves to this type of second guessing/torture.

 

How about keep your chin up, work hard and engage in some altruistic activities and if a person meets someone of interest, a natural flow based on circumstance will occur. I'm from the ice age. This is not rocket science and when you have a natural attraction, things do fall into place.

 

Why is everyone trying so hard??

[autumnnight]

And here is another thing:

 

I am very sorry that Bonnie or Judy took advantage of Joe. However, I will not be insincerely dating Joe, and I will NOT be paying for Bonnie and Judy's mistakes....because I am not Bonnie or Judy. If you are so upset about Bonnie or Judy that you are going to be suspicious of every subsequent woman, then please do some counseling before dating me. I don't punish Joe for Bob's mistakes or hurts, and I don't expect to be a proxy either.

[Shining One]

I am very sorry that Bonnie or Judy took advantage of Joe. However, I will not be insincerely dating Joe, and I will NOT be paying for Bonnie and Judy's mistakes....because I am not Bonnie or Judy. If you are so upset about Bonnie or Judy that you are going to be suspicious of every subsequent woman, then please do some counseling before dating me. I don't punish Joe for Bob's mistakes or hurts, and I don't expect to be a proxy either.

You're quite correct. It's wrong to force a new partner to pay for the wrongs of a previous partner. I look at it a bit differently though.

 

Bonnie and Judy took advantage of me and I learned from that experience. I learned that I do not like the traditional arrangement of "man always pays". Thus, I now choose to date women who believe in equal contribution. No one gets punished in this arrangement.

[carhill]

I'm actually curious how many first dates most guys go on that lead nowhere.

 

IME, over about 20 years before meeting my exW, I'd put a reasonable estimate at one in five went to a second date. The really hard part was getting to a first date, so much so that I became a quite sizable shareholder in what became Exxon/Mobil since I bought stock each time I got a first date rejection. Heh. That went towards buying exW her engagement ring, heh, another male tradition.

 

More recently, during my D, I dated one woman for about six weeks and five dates. The last date she did chip in for seeing a movie after dinner. Since she later broke of the dating experience, perhaps that was foreshadowing. Otherwise, I paid for all the dates for both ladies. No one held a gun to my head. Obviously, I could have insisted on a different arrangement and perhaps past messages in my psyche on any attempts failing drove that decision-making process. Thankfully, I don't have to be concerned with that stuff anymore. Yikes.

[Timshel]

One of the reasons men get upset about paying is because some women say they want a traditional relationship where men pay, but they don't uphold the traditional female role. Basically, they want the best of both worlds.

 

I used to date a girl years ago, when I was young and stupid....er. She lived with me, but didn't contribute towards paying the bills. She didn't really clean much, nor did she cook at all. She had a job, but she didn't make much money, and what money she did make, she blew. Anyway, near the end, we had an argument about her getting a car. I was a bit tired from driving her back and forth to work, so I suggested she save for a car. She said that as her boyfriend, I should want to buy her a car. I told her that I was already paying all of the bills, and I didn't really think it was fair that I also buy her a car. She said it was my job. Even though she had excuses for why she didn't do any traditional "women's" jobs, I was still expected to do the man thing...pay for her. That is the sort of mentality a lot of women have.

 

Another reason some men complain about paying is because dating dynamics have changed. How many times have we heard that it's a numbers game these days? Well, those numbers add up! There are a few women on here that say they have been on 50 to 100+ dates. How many of those did she pay for? Odds are, the men are paying for most of those. I'm actually curious how many first dates most guys go on that lead nowhere. I've always been lucky.

 

This is a new dating game and one, as a woman, am not on board with. There are so many holes, things that are wrong with the way men and women approach dating.

 

I am not going to be 'pc' and you can bet your vjay that I have feminist idealism ingrained from my earliest childhood memories.

 

Numbers are bs. Anyone playing the numbers game should also be throwing away lots of money on lottery tickets. So let's toss money at lottery, curse that you did not win and then be ecstatic when you win $50 or $1,000 after you have lost $8,000 gambling, because that's what it is.

 

You are a sucker and congratulations, you are keeping organized gambling alive and well.

 

Same with OLD or trying to meet someone in an inorganic way and then gripe at the money you've tossed away with it. Oh Well. It's a numbers game for those who play it.

 

I am not on a high horse. I am calling it the way I see it and I walk the line.

 

If you want to take out and date many people to increase your odds then realize that you also increase your losses and stop pissing about this very simple mathematical equation.

 

If you choose to play the numbers game then say up front: I will not pay for the date today as I paid for two dates earlier this week and if I pay today, I will resent you and think you are an accckhole because I have poor budgeting skills and do not know how to be still and not date anyone at all.

[Frank2thepoint]

However, threads like this make me paranoid. None of the IRL men I know seem fixated on this or seem to feel the way many of you LS men feel about women....but maybe they do? Maybe they are great on the date, and then they go home and rant online about what a greedy beeyotch I am?

 

if the anonymity afforded by online discussion boards allows for more candor and so these men ARE simply saying what is going through the minds of each and every man I encounter on dates in the real world, as they smile, nod, and pleasantly chat with me

 

I do agree that the Internet affords the anonymity of a person expressing their unfiltered opinion. But phenomenon that has existed far before public forums, where people say one thing to your face, while say another behind your back. Not too many people are comfortable with expressing their feelings immediately in-person. So an online community is an easy medium for expression.

 

 

all the while such venom, hatred, and bitterness is seething through their veins, just waiting for the *right* moment to be shared, with a vengeance.

 

Let's not assume the worst about men. As long as men are being respectful, they do have a right to their opinion. Many men speak with some fervor due to their experiences about paying for dates. The least this topic would do, is allow both genders to mull over the opinions presented, in consideration in case mindsets are too rigid.

 

 

Why is everyone trying so hard??

 

Seeking companionship is an ingrained habit/desire/compulsion similar to wanting to continue breathing. People subject themselves to this torture that is dating because innately all, if not most, humans do not want to be alone.

[mrldii]

...Let's not assume the worst about men. As long as men are being respectful, they do have a right to their opinion. Many men speak with some fervor due to their experiences about paying for dates. The least this topic would do, is allow both genders to mull over the opinions presented, in consideration in case mindsets are too rigid...

 

 

I don't believe I was "assum[ing] the worst about men". (Ironically,) I was simply stating a concern and opinion of mine, as a woman, on an online discussion board and exercising my right to do so, in a respectful manner.

 

 

 

Anyhoo, as the article stated - and as I'd indicated earlier - I'm one of the 80% who fall somewhere in between and in the middle; according to some other women who've posted, the angst, despair, and confusion over "Who Pays?!?" just doesn't enter into my dating/relating world, etiher, and I refuse to allow it to, despite this contemporary article - and this now-at-7-pages-thread suggesting it simply must.

 

[BlackOpsZombieGirl]

This is a new dating game and one, as a woman, am not on board with. There are so many holes, things that are wrong with the way men and women approach dating.

 

I am not going to be 'pc' and you can bet your vjay that I have feminist idealism ingrained from my earliest childhood memories.

 

Numbers are bs. Anyone playing the numbers game should also be throwing away lots of money on lottery tickets. So let's toss money at lottery, curse that you did not win and then be ecstatic when you win $50 or $1,000 after you have lost $8,000 gambling, because that's what it is.

 

You are a sucker and congratulations, you are keeping organized gambling alive and well.

 

Same with OLD or trying to meet someone in an inorganic way and then gripe at the money you've tossed away with it. Oh Well. It's a numbers game for those who play it.

I am not on a high horse. I am calling it the way I see it and I walk the line.

 

If you want to take out and date many people to increase your odds then realize that you also increase your losses and stop pissing about this very simple mathematical equation.

 

If you choose to play the numbers game then say up front: I will not pay for the date today as I paid for two dates earlier this week and if I pay today, I will resent you and think you are an accckhole because I have poor budgeting skills and do not know how to be still and not date anyone at all.

 

Wow, really?! Being a little hard on him, aren't ya? Your post was in direct response to Enigma's post.

 

So, you think he's a "sucker" because he plays the numbers game by dating more than one woman...and because he's "pissing about" dealing with women who are either relics from the 1950s that don't contribute anything financially and/or sick of dealing with women like you who bend so far to the other extreme that you expect him to "know how to be still" and "not date anyone at all" because he supposedly has "poor budgeting skills"?

 

FYI, there's NOTHING whatever wrong with a guy expecting a woman to contribute her fair share financially when it comes to going out on dates! Why should the guy have to pay for everything? Because he's a male?

 

And yes - it IS a numbers game. How do you expect Enigma or any man to find a woman he's attracted to and compatible with? Do you expect all women to approach him and to ask him out on dates and for them to pay his way?

 

 

You really expect men NOT to date any women at all so they don't complain about spending money on taking these women out on dates?

 

Um, don't you think that's just a teensy weensy bit extreme?

 

 

 

.