FWB getting more serious? Or not? Wazzup?

[sleeplessindallas]

I have mentioned my FWB here in the past. He and I have been friends for about six years. Prior to my live-in, he and I had an occasional romp that we enjoyed tremendously, but it was always a no-strings deal, and I was perfectly okay with that. Chronic illness prevented his wife from being able to have sex, and I always was more than happy to respect that he wanted to stay married to her and stand by her. He was one of the most loving and devoted husbands I have ever known, and although he was off limits to me, I wished I could find someone like him (although maybe a little better looking). We have always been such good friends that he would ask me about things like what I thought a good gift for his wife would be and that sort of thing. For the few years that I was involved with my live-in, I was completely faithful to him and this friend always understood that and respected it. We remained good friends and talked once every week or two. He was raising teenagers as was I, so frequently that was the subject of our chats, as were many, many other common interests.

 

Last Fall he called to tell me his wife had left him, and our friendship sort of sporadically intensified. He’d call more than once a week if he was having a really bad time with it. He just wanted her to come home and we would talk about that sort of thing. He would be blaming himself and telling me where he thought he had failed her, and stuff like that. My angle on the thing was that she was the one who had failed because she didn’t speak up and talk to him about what was troubling her before taking such a dramatic step. (One day I just blurted out, “Excuse me for saying so, but that is just the chicken-s**t way of doing things! How about being an adult and TALKING about stuff? It’s not your fault that she didn’t do that.” I was wild that he was blaming himself for her behavior.)

 

After my live-in moved out and we broke up, this guy asked if he could come by for a booty call and I agreed to it. He was way off his game, though, and it ended up being mostly a bust. Whatever. I really didn’t care.

 

So now we’re at about ten months since the wife moved out and it doesn’t look like she’s coming home. She occasionally spends a weekend with him, but always makes sure there is some distraction (like a grand-child) that prevents them from being able to talk about what is going to happen between them. She just avoids any talk about it. He is going broke trying to keep their property and make payments on it, and she is living in a city about an hour away. It’s just strange. I don’t see this ending the way he wants it to at all, and I think she is using him now, probably for his money.

 

So although we haven’t tried another booty call, we have talked a lot lately; even more than we ever have. The nature of our conversations has been a little different, more along the lines of that dating/getting to know you stuff. We’ve always talked about a lot of things, but the character of these conversations has been notably different in a way that I can’t quite put my finger on. Maybe it’s that in the past, we would talk on the way home from work, for instance, but now we are able to talk for a couple of hours at a time and late into the night or something.

 

All this being said, last week he called to tell me he had had a strange incident at a store where a woman he knew worked. He’s probably known this woman for twenty years. Apparently he must have been flirting with this woman (yes, he does flirt a lot, but when it comes right down to it, he is usually just being a harmless southern flirt) because as he came out of the bathroom at the store, she was waiting for him and planted a big kiss on him! He was floored. But what he said next floored me. He said, “So, I suppose if I end up getting laid I probably shouldn’t tell you.”

 

Not being one to weigh my words or play games, I just reacted with, “Hell, I don’t care. Of course you can tell me. I tell you when I do.”

 

I tried to back him into a corner about what would make him even think something like that, but he just said that all of this is very new to him.

 

I was left wondering what he thinks. Part of me was indignant that he even presumed I would care. I was left with this train of thought that went along the lines of, “It’s not like we’re dating. It’s not like I have any claim to this guy. What the hell is he thinking? As far as I know, our relationship has not changed, nor would I even consider getting really involved with him until and unless his wife decides what she is going to do.”

 

I don’t know if I would even want to get involved with him. It’s never been an option so it isn’t something I have ever really considered seriously. I’d like to keep it that way for now – an unknown.

 

So I guess the question at this point is: Am I misinterpreting this because I suspect it means he has considered, or even thinks he is having a more serious relationship with me and doesn’t want to mess it up by telling me he got laid?

 

I can honestly say that it isn’t wishful thinking on my part – right now the idea of any serious relationship with anyone is pretty scary to me and I don’t know if I would want one. It never even crossed my mind that our relationship might be escalating/evolving into something more than a good friendship because he still has this whacked out wife issue to deal with. I know he’s thinking she isn’t going to come home, but I know he still hopes she will. Do you think he thinks I am waiting in the bullpen in case she decides to bail? After I got off the phone that day and thought about it, it occurred to me that I hoped I didn’t hurt his feelings by telling him I didn’t care if he got laid.

 

The next night he called to tell me it had happened, so I guess he resolved whatever reservations he had about telling me. Another possibility is that he actually didn’t get laid, but was testing me to see how I would react. I was fine with it because I really don’t care.

 

I don’t know if I’ve described this adequately, but I’m curious about what you think. I’m open to any psycho-analysis you care to do on me, too, for that matter. I have a pretty good idea what’s going on with me as concerns this guy, but you might have insights I haven’t even thought of or considered.

 

Have at it! :-)

[Shaaz]

Originally posted by sleeplessindallas

I was fine with it because I really don’t care.

 

Umm... you just spent twenty paragraphs describing this one event. It seems to me you're only fooling yourself if you pretend you don't care!

 

You clearly have a really complicated relationship with this guy that goes way back.

But I know from experience that getting a divorce is very, very, very, very, very stressful. He is going to be seeking interactions with people that re-affirm that he is attractive, interesting, and desirable, even while having really confused and mixed feelings about getting back together with his wife. You guys seem to have a history where you've played that role for each other: booty call when you're feeling horny or insecure.

 

Look, he's messed up right now, and there's little we can do to figure out what's going on in HIS head without hearing from him. Plus, you are NOT going to be able to solve his relationship problem... that will take time for those two to figure out.

 

What's important is what's going on in YOUR head... and maybe that's why you're posting?? You made some comments that indicate your feelings aren't entirely platonic, e.g. "He was one of the most loving and devoted husbands I have ever known, and although he was off limits to me, I wished I could find someone like him"... and now "I don’t know if I would even want to get involved with him." Except that you ARE involved -- you have long conversations, you worry about what he thinks, you every so often have sex or might have sex or not -- do you think about your other friends this often and this intensely? Are you actively seeing other people, thinking about the possibilities of relationships with others, and just helping this poor guy through a rough time when he calls you?

 

"Do you think he thinks I am waiting in the bullpen in case she decides to bail?"

Well, are you?

[sleeplessindallas]

*** "Do you think he thinks I am waiting in the bullpen in case she decides to bail?"

Well, are you?***

 

Well, in a word: No.

 

I really don’t feel like I am waiting at all for him. I think that if he ever does resolve his issues and he ends up single, he might be an interesting person to date if I’m available and if I feel like dating. There’s nothing to say that would ever happen, and I’m certainly not going to waste precious amounts of my own life waiting to see if that is going to happen. Nopey nope nope.

 

Honestly, if another prospect were available I wouldn’t hesitate for a second to date someone, assuming I wanted to. Part of the deal for me is I am very ambivalent about dating at all right now, and that may play into my indignation that he seemed to think I would care if he got mixed up with that woman. Today I was out working in my garden and I realized I am a very, very happy single person and the prospect of sharing my life with anyone again is very unappealing to me right now. This is why an occasional booty call works for me – I really like the “no-strings” aspect of it.

 

I may be ‘involved’ with him. But not. I thought I was involved as a friend. Often, we might talk two days in a row, and then not again for a week or more. It’s very sporadic.

 

Realistically, I would be very happy for him if his wife just came home. To me, that would be the ideal resolution for him because that is what he wants, so that is what I want for him.

 

As far as this particular incident goes: You know how you can search your soul to see if you are having any response to something emotionally? I did that, and I really and truly have no feelings about it. Nada, zip, zilch. I guess the point is that if I were dating him I probably would care, but as things stand I have absolutely no visceral reaction to him getting laid of any kind. I have no claim to him, no expectation of fidelity (how absurd), and no investment of any kind in anything he chooses to do. This is why I think it blew me away that he thought he should keep it from me. I’m really not fooling myself – if I were upset about it I have no earthly reason not to say so. I would be posting something to the effect of, “Why does it matter to me? Why do I care what he does?” But I just don’t care. To me it’s just a “whatever” in the most ambivalent way possible. Or maybe even “Good for him!” because I know he needed to do this.

 

Yeah, we are probably guilty of turning to each other in times of need. I have no problem with that assertion.

 

I do spend a lot of time thinking about friends. If something is going on with a friend, it’s not at all unusual for me to spend a fair amount of time thinking about them or what they’re feeling, or considering possibilities for resolution of their issues. I think that just means I care about them. This guy’s issues are as important to me as the issues of my other friends, but not really more so or more intensely. Among my friends, his issues are current, so I talk with him more, so I think about it more. The thing is that a posting in a forum can make it seem as if someone is obsessing about something, but in my case, I just prefer to post as thoroughly as I can because, also in a post, things can get misconstrued very easily. Realistically, I posted this original post and then promptly forgot about it and haven’t given him a thought all day until I just came in, woke up my computer and found I had left this page up. I was a little startled to realize I hadn’t given him a thought all day, but I was having fun gardening and mowing my lawn and cleaning the pool and talking to friends... I have far too busy a life to worry about this stuff very much. I just found his statement odd in the context of our relationship and wondered if maybe I should be more careful of his feelings when I’m being flippant about not caring what he does. He is, I agree, a mess right now and I don’t want to hurt him.

 

Also, it may be relevant that he and I are both approaching 50. I say that because I think it is important to realize that both of us have been around the block a few times, so to speak. We’ve both “been there, done that” with the whole family thing (I was married once for about twenty years, he twice – this time ten years, no kids for him), the house, and that whole scenario where maybe we would have been thinking about our biological clocks or whatever. I feel no pressure at all to find a husband or make a life with someone. If it comes to pass some day, that’s fine, and if it doesn’t, I’m perfectly fine with that. I am content with a pretty full life.

 

Concerning my thoughts about wishing I could find someone like him: When I first met him I was still married to a guy who ultimately decided he didn't want to be married any more. When this friend and I would talk he would tell me about some of the sweet things he did for his wife, and how much and why he adored her, and i just remember wistfully wishing my own marriage was that good. That was a long time ago, and I haven't entertained thoughts like that in a very long time.

[R O B J.]

The way most all grow up conceiving of romantic love is as follows:

 

It's being with someone who is sexually attractive and will assume complimentary social roles with you but who more importantly is you best best best friend.

 

That is how all guys I have ever know idealise the perfect relationship. Realize this idealized friendship at its base level is indestinguishable from the type of friendship he seeks with his best guy buddy. The only diffference being that when the sexual attraction and ego gratification of being with a women kick in, we become even more concerned & caring than is otherwise possible for a normal friendship.

 

thus when he asks / suggests not telling you about the flirting, he is trying to balance his uncertainty about your relation to eachother (you're great friends with eachother , he finds you attractive - therefor you're definitely a potential partner in his book ) while at the same time be totally open and honest / sharing with you like buddies would be. For men it is hard to maintain a distinction between behavior which is appropriate for the love of oir buddies "just friends" and that which is appropriate for the love of our SOs (and more troubling even is when we are uncertain as to the woman's feelings for us)

 

A GUYS THINKING:

I mean you agreed to sleep with me before (therefor I must rate at least the bare minimum of sexual acceptability to you) and we are seemingly the most sharing and caring of friends, therfor why not?

 

(this two things are all a guy needs to think, this could be it)

[sleeplessindallas]

Wow, ROBJ, that was really interesting and insightful for me. He has frequently told me that sometimes he is amazed at the things that he tells me and can talk to me about that he has never told anyone else. I just shrug because I can talk to any of my guy buddies about anything. (Lest you think it is anything wrong or illegal, it is more along the lines of work stuff that he *can’t* tell anyone, or sexual fantasies he’s had, but he knows his ‘stuff’ is safe with me.)

 

I can see why the distinction of guy-buddy-stuff vs. girlfriend stuff would be really troubling if you don’t know where you stand with someone, and I’ve certainly never given him any reason to think we were anything other than buddies. I guess he is trying to sort that out, and so far he has gotten nothing but guy-buddy responses from me.

 

I had forgotten that when his wife first left, he had asked me, “So if I get a little worked up sometime and I need a booty call, should I check with you first?” I think I probably told him that it didn’t matter to me, although I do recall being flattered that I appeared to be at the top of his list.

 

I’m not deliberately trying keep him off balance so much as I really don’t know how I would feel about a relationship with him, and I sure don’t want to have any influence at all in what ultimately happens in his marriage. I don’t want him to think I am waiting in the bullpen mainly because I really don’t know. I could be, but I might not be. Potential? Sure. But strictly that. I’ve not reached any conclusion in my heart of hearts about how I feel about him because I choose not to. And I think I would have to date him if I were ever going to figure that out, and his marriage is going to have to be over before that could ever happen. I think he might have a lot of potential, but I really don’t know. He’s just always been a friend and I am honestly still rooting for his wife to come home.

 

So here’s the funniest thing: I was thinking about responding to these posts tonight, and my 16-year-old daughter was home. She has met this guy and I told her a couple of months ago that we were talking about the possibility of dating (the night he came by for that booty call and I couldn’t very well tell her we were waiting for her to leave), but that I had basically told him I wouldn’t really consider it until he had gotten a resolution to the wife issue. So I told her that he had told me he had had this odd encounter with this woman during which she had kissed him. I told her that he had said, “So, if I get mixed up with this woman, I probably shouldn’t tell you, huh?” She said, “What??!!” And I said, “Yeah, I was trying to figure out where THAT came from.” So she responds with, “Uh, so do you like me, too?” ROFLMAO!!! Why didn’t I just ask her in the first place instead of going to all the trouble of posting this?

 

Is this something I should confront and hash out with him or is it better to just let it lie for now? Since my response was to question why he would even have such thoughts, he probably already realizes the jig is up, I’m onto him, and he has tipped his hand. Should I just ignore it?

[Shaaz]

Since you're ambivalent/leaning towards not wanting to have a relationship with this guy -- and especially because he's in a super vulnerable place right now with his potential divorce -- I would vote for NOT discussing it with him. You've sent him the message (whether intentionally or no) that you don't feel you have any hold over him... i.e. that you may not consider your relationship as moving towards serious. I'm not sure it would help him to talk it out any further.

 

He may be interested in having a relationship with you. An alternative is that he may really want you to be jealous because he is in an insecure place and it would make him feel better. Given my experience with all the crazy feelings surrounding getting divorced, he may want both, or either, depending on the day or the hour. A double reason not to get into it with him now: wait until he's worked out things enough so that he's really left his wife, and may be thinking more clearly about you!

 

That's my take on it, anyway.

[RecordProducer]

I think he just didn't want to hurt you in case it would hurt you. That's all. If he wanted to be serious with you, he wouldn't have told you any of it nor would he sleep (or tell you that he slept) with other women.

No, you didn't hurt him by telling him you don't care. He is the one who doesn't care. If he cared, he would have tried to be in a relationship with you, he wouldn't need provocation, tricky questions, and head games in order to let you know how he feels or find out how you feel. But very sweet of him to be concerned about your feelings.

[sleeplessindallas]

I haven't heard from him since he called to tell me about his escapade.

 

I can only hope this means he is getting what he needs. :-)

[sleeplessindallas]

So the latest...

 

I haven’t called this guy since he told me about his adventure. I’ve been really busy with a lot of other stuff. This morning I came out of an appointment to find a message on my cell phone, “You don’t call me. You don’t write me. You don’t blow me. I’m very disappointed here. I’ll holler at ya later!” I cracked up instantly. And I called him right back and we laughed. You know, I figured his ego was in pretty good shape, he was busy with the store clerk, and he didn’t necessarily need any attention from me, so I just hadn’t bothered to call him. Eventually we always reconnect, so whatever. Mainly he had called to tell me his crazy wife had shown up for the weekend, but alone this time, and they had had some time to talk. Apparently, she doesn’t want to be around while he finishes raising his kids. I said, “Oh, so she doesn’t want to be bothered by your kids, huh?” (I know he has bent over backwards for her kids and now they are grown and gone.) He said that was kind of a harsh way of putting it but it was, in fact, the truth. He sounded much more chipper and optimistic, though, about his marriage.

 

I can’t figure out what difference I make to his life in anyway. He’s got his hands full, as far as I can see. He’s made some comments in the past about our relationship, like once saying he wished I were just his, and other complimentary stuff like calling me classy, and I once said something to the effect that I wasn’t THAT exciting, and he said, “Oh, you really ARE that exciting, believe me.” He's accused me of being weak when I have gone to visit my former live-in. So I still feel like I don’t really understand his deal at all. On one hand, I feel like he is continually baiting me to see if I’ll be emotionally involved, but then he throws this other stuff at me that tells me I shouldn’t, so I don’t. And then I think he is trying to say he is disappointed that I’m not (not calling him, not chasing him, not getting emotionally involved). When I got involved with my live-in and stopped boinking this guy, he started saying I had “dumped” him. Not. I just had a live-in boyfriend that I was faithful to. As much as he respected it, he also seemed hurt that I wouldn’t fool around with him any more. It seems he has always made sure I kept him at arm’s length emotionally, and then appears to be disappointed when I manage to keep it that way.

 

What makes guys like this tick? Is it an ego trip? I mean, we’re great friends and probably always will be, but I can’t figure out what in the hell he really wants from me. I guess it boils down to the fact that I would consider a relationship with him if I thought he was serious, but one day I think he might be and the next I have no idea. I don't know if I read too much into some of the things he says, or if he is deliberately baiting me and trying to figure out if he should (or dares to) get serious about me. For instance, I find it intriguing that he called me as soon as he could after his wife left. From the conversation, I can't figure out if he wanted to see how I reacted, or if I would say something like, "Well, that sucks for me" (which some woman did say to him about the situation once recently), or if he keeps expecting/hoping I'll break and admit to some deep feelings for him, or I'll get jealous, or what. As it stands right now, I've not ever played any games with him or said something I didn't mean. It wouldn't be uncharacteristic of me to just say, "You know, maybe you ought to just tell me what it is you want or expect or hope will happen here, and then we can get it out in the open and hash it out for real." Or maybe he just wanted to share the latest in this chapter in his life. I'm just scratching my head here.

[swirlingdaisy]

Hooray for his wife, for having the good sense to leave his cheating a$$. I had to crack up when you were initiallly writing about how he was so devoted to her and that he respected her. I think you're both quite delusional and could easily make your debut on Jerry Springer.

[sleeplessindallas]

And you know, Daisy, twenty-five or thirty years ago, when I was much more innocent, I thought life only came in black or white, too. I thought people were either good or bad, and relationships were either good or bad. But having had a boatload of experiences and a good education in criminal justice, I have come to realize that life only comes in shades of gray, and very rarely is as cut-and-fried as you perceive this.

[sleeplessindallas]

I realize that there is more to my perspctive than I have explained here, so I'm going to try to see if I can explain myself a little better.

 

I was married to a cheater for twenty-one years. He was a narcissistic monster who completely neglected his three kids and me, and ultimately decided he didn't want to be married any more. He ended up marrying one of his lovers who is twenty years his jumior and who will tolerate his cheating because of the culture she was raised in. She's Chinese, doesn't speak a word of English and was raised traditionally. She lives to serve him. Apparently that is what he wanted. He clearly did not want to have a marriage – he was never home, always chasing either the next business deal or the next skirt, and I ended up a (married) single parent. When we did get divorced, my kids didn’t even notice he was gone, basically. My youngest said, “Well, it’s not like I ever really had a father anyway.”

 

With this background, when I met this friend, I really was impressed by his devotion to his wife. He spent his time with her, and devoted himself to their life. The very occasional (maybe a half dozen times over the course of years) time that he turned to me for a little fun, was done during his work hours. He would never, ever consider taking time away from her to see me. And that was fine. If my ex had been a devoted husband, you see, and I had been unable to provide him with sex due to medical problems, I might have really not cared if he went elsewhere. I’m not saying that is how this guy’s wife might see things – I really don’t know - but I am saying how I would have seen things. He is a devoted father and step-father. He does adore his wife. His time has always been spent working on their home or helping her with projects and just generally “being there”, something I never experienced in my own marriage. Perhaps that is why I never really saw him as a cheater, exactly. He was not cheating her out of anything at all. Unlike myself, whose cheating husband cost me the best years of my life and a father to my kids. I don’t know if that makes any sense at all, but it is how I see this. I’d have given my eyeteeth to have had a husband who was as “present” in his marriage as this guy has always been. The fact that he has, on rare occasions, stepped outside his marriage for something he couldn’t get in it, seems a footnote to me in comparison to what he has put into it. I think of all the married guys I know who go out and spend a king’s ransom in the strip clubs, for instance, getting off there, and they’re not considered cheaters(?). Meanwhile their wives have no idea what “guy’s night out” even means. The wife is losing time with him, the children are losing time with him, he’s spending money that rightfully belongs to the family, and who knows what he is being exposed to in those places. This is the type of thing I mean by perspective. A lot of years observing has shown me that all is not black or white in life.

 

I may have more to say later, but I have to leave for work now.

[sleeplessindallas]

Well, that was all pretty stupid, I realize.

 

I do really like this guy and I have enjoyed his friendship as well as the rare tumble. Nonetheless, as I drove to work this morning I realized I was defending someone I don't necessarily agree with. And I was defending a situation I don't necessarily feel completely comfortable with. I also realized as I drove, that probably the reason I have always been so ambivalent about this guy is precisely this issue. I don't need another cheater in my life. He may really have what I would consider to be one of the few justifiable reasons for seeking sex outside a marriage, but that bothers me regardless. If I were involved with him and then I couldn't give him sex, I would be frantic wondering where he was getting it.

 

I guess we can continue to be friends, but if his marriage does actually completely fall apart, I doubt there is any way on earth that he could assure me adequately that he wouldn't cheat on me (if he wanted a relationship with me), and I don't need that. That (probably more than anything else, if I am to be fully honest) is what has kept me so ambivalent all these years, as well as now. That is why I don’t let myself get emotionally involved in my relationship with him, and why I can hear him tell me about another woman without caring one bit. I really don’t want him the way he is right now. Nor do I necessarily think I could ever learn to trust him.

 

I do see it that he maintained his promise to be his wife’s life partner, come what may, and to me, that does say something about a person’s character. He may not have been able to resist the occasional romp because of his circumstances, but he really was always there for her, always helping her, and always would have been. That aspect of him is very appealing to me, and is something I would love to find in a man some day. He has many good qualities about him, and many loveable things, but this stumbling block is something I would probably never get past.

 

It isn’t black and white, but it’s a little too dark for me, I think. What’s hard is that we are such good friends, and he has so many of the qualities I would like to find in a man, but he has what appears to be a fatal flaw. Don’t they all?

 

I appreciate that you made me think. Thank you.

[RecordProducer]

I think you have seen a very dark side of marriage as an institutuion so grey shadows seem like a bright light to you. Your criteria is diminished and it's normal. I think it's time for you to move on, start believeing in love again, and meet someone who is not a cheater, who can show you his love, and appreciate you. You're not in your twenties anymore, you're not the same naive girl, so you won't make the same mistakes. Of course nobody is perfect, but also not too many people are so imperfect like your ex-husband. Keep your head up and look forwrd to falling in love again.