"Independence from men,,,,,"

[Toodaloo]

the more appropriate advice might well be "you must ensure your most important relationships are with people who genuinely appreciate the work you are prepared to put in - and who demonstrate that appreciation by putting time and effort into the relationship themselves."

 

I am just highlighting this.

 

Because its true.

 

As for men stepping up their game. It goes like this. If you want that strong, loving independent woman to love you then you have to be the strong independent loving man for them to love! Be the person you want to date/ live with.

[Els]

So needing a person isn't needing a person. Got it.

 

If you don't see any difference in what I said, then it should not matter too much to you if a woman tells you:

A) "Yeah, I should probably get me a husband. Women need a man after all. Wanna marry?" instead of

B) "I need you in my life"?

[Guyouthere]

Or because their husbands died first and left them alone. The kids don't come over to visit. I visit a nursing home to see my aunt and you'd be surprised how many of those people do not get visits from their children. It's sad.

 

Women don't need a man. I was quite happy before I met my husband. I know plenty of single middle aged women who aren't married and have very full lives.

 

My dad was in a nursing home,, and I saw that too…. the lack of caring by the children of the others in there. It is sad a society can raise people as self centered as that.

 

It brings to mind what just happened here….

 

My gold friend who knew my ex wife and also greatly made a difference in how I healed after her, because she cared and no one else really did, she recently died herself in hospice at 35 years old.

 

She had a rare affliction called myasthenia gravis which she battled for years.

 

She cried in my arms somethings because she said few even came to see her. I was one of the few who did, and I saw her just a few days before she died, and I know I made her happy because she was smiling watching my videos I played for her, while she layer in bed unable to move. She had a glow on her face, so I know she really appreciated me being there for her.

 

As for needing a man, or woman,,,

 

What I see is that people THINK they are happy, but in reality they are not truly fulfilled, as much as they might THINK they are.

 

There is no substitute for cuddling, hugging sex, or others on that "list".

[RedRobin]

A nice house, business, trips, etc.,,,,,

 

None of that will and can substitute for the love of a man.

They can't cuddle, hold you, love you, and the real list goes on.

 

Lots of plenty of women in nursing homes who have money, and yet found themselves alone because they were too "independent".

 

Do you know any women in nursing homes? I know a few. And have volunteered in nursing homes.

 

The vast majority are alone because their husbands died. And they either don't want to be a burden on their children or their children don't visit.

 

Seems to me, a better plan is for women to marry younger men if they don't want to be alone in old age, lol.

 

My take away from volunteering is that there are no guarantees... Better to find a circle of friends and family... And if you are also blessed with the love of a GOOD man...even better! But if he is no good... Then better to be single. Lots of men are not good and either don't know how or dont want to be partners. It is not up to women to take in the stray dogs.

 

Edited...and I see I am not the only person on the thread who is questioning how you linked independence and dying in nursing homes. So when a homeless man dies, do we blame him for being too independent? Or if a man dies in a nursing home, you blame him too? Or is it just women who get the blame?

Edited September 25, 2015 by RedRobin

[autumnnight]

God still made us male and female.

 

Neither should be alone, and it goes against basic nature to feel so.

 

It is about fulfillment.

 

Happiness comes from being fulfilled.

 

 

I am very glad this works for you.

 

Even the Bible makes allowances for being single (In fact, in I Corinthians it is encouraged).

 

We should be content in our own circumstances. If I am incomplete and discontent unless I have someone else to "complete" me...my relationship is not going to be very healthy or unselfish.

 

I don't "need" to have a significant other to be happy and content. My family, my faith, my life...they all fulfill me.

 

However, with the right person, I would love to have a partner in life (man).

 

But....if you are talking about those closet misandrist women who have a chip on their shoulders? Yeah, I agree with you that that isn't natural...or attractive.

[autumnnight]

Men need a woman to be fulfilled.

 

Women need a man to be fulfilled.

 

Anything else, and it doesn't lead to a truly fulfilling life as designed by God.

 

Happiness comes from being happy with yourself as well as being fulfilled.

 

So in reality, it is all dependent on each other.

 

 

 

See below from I Cor 7:

 

25 Now about virgins: I have no command from the Lord, but I give a judgment as one who by the Lord’s mercy is trustworthy. 26 Because of the present crisis, I think that it is good for a man to remain as he is. 27 Are you pledged to a woman? Do not seek to be released. Are you free from such a commitment? Do not look for a wife. 28 But if you do marry, you have not sinned; and if a virgin marries, she has not sinned. But those who marry will face many troubles in this life, and I want to spare you this.

 

29 What I mean, brothers and sisters, is that the time is short. From now on those who have wives should live as if they do not; 30 those who mourn, as if they did not; those who are happy, as if they were not; those who buy something, as if it were not theirs to keep; 31 those who use the things of the world, as if not engrossed in them. For this world in its present form is passing away.

 

32 I would like you to be free from concern. An unmarried man is concerned about the Lord’s affairs—how he can please the Lord. 33 But a married man is concerned about the affairs of this world—how he can please his wife— 34 and his interests are divided. An unmarried woman or virgin is concerned about the Lord’s affairs: Her aim is to be devoted to the Lord in both body and spirit. But a married woman is concerned about the affairs of this world—how she can please her husband. 35 I am saying this for your own good, not to restrict you, but that you may live in a right way in undivided devotion to the Lord.

 

36 If anyone is worried that he might not be acting honorably toward the virgin he is engaged to, and if his passions are too strong and he feels he ought to marry, he should do as he wants. He is not sinning. They should get married. 37 But the man who has settled the matter in his own mind, who is under no compulsion but has control over his own will, and who has made up his mind not to marry the virgin—this man also does the right thing. 38 So then, he who marries the virgin does right, but he who does not marry her does better.[c]

 

Wanna rethink your stance?

[Guyouthere]

See below from I Cor 7:

 

25 Now about virgins: I have no command from the Lord, but I give a judgment as one who by the Lord’s mercy is trustworthy. 26 Because of the present crisis, I think that it is good for a man to remain as he is. 27 Are you pledged to a woman? Do not seek to be released. Are you free from such a commitment? Do not look for a wife. 28 But if you do marry, you have not sinned; and if a virgin marries, she has not sinned. But those who marry will face many troubles in this life, and I want to spare you this.

 

29 What I mean, brothers and sisters, is that the time is short. From now on those who have wives should live as if they do not; 30 those who mourn, as if they did not; those who are happy, as if they were not; those who buy something, as if it were not theirs to keep; 31 those who use the things of the world, as if not engrossed in them. For this world in its present form is passing away.

 

32 I would like you to be free from concern. An unmarried man is concerned about the Lord’s affairs—how he can please the Lord. 33 But a married man is concerned about the affairs of this world—how he can please his wife— 34 and his interests are divided. An unmarried woman or virgin is concerned about the Lord’s affairs: Her aim is to be devoted to the Lord in both body and spirit. But a married woman is concerned about the affairs of this world—how she can please her husband. 35 I am saying this for your own good, not to restrict you, but that you may live in a right way in undivided devotion to the Lord.

 

36 If anyone is worried that he might not be acting honorably toward the virgin he is engaged to, and if his passions are too strong and he feels he ought to marry, he should do as he wants. He is not sinning. They should get married. 37 But the man who has settled the matter in his own mind, who is under no compulsion but has control over his own will, and who has made up his mind not to marry the virgin—this man also does the right thing. 38 So then, he who marries the virgin does right, but he who does not marry her does better.[c]

 

Wanna rethink your stance?

 

I admire you because out of all of the posts here, you present a Christian and biblical view of it. That says a lot to me.

 

God did say that it is was not good for "man to be alone", goes back to Genesis.

 

God made the woman for the man, and for the purpose that he should have a companion

[readynow]

God did say that it is was not good for "man to be alone", goes back to Genesis.

God made the woman for the man, and for the purpose that he should have a companion

 

That's assuming everyone on this website believes in 'God' and 'Genesis'. But let's pretend that we do, doesn't that mean it is the man that needs the woman and the woman needs nothing? If a table was built for me, the table doesn't need me at all!

 

I personally do not NEED a man. I NEED a job, a car, a roof over my head, clean water, food and sleep. I have a man and I love him very much but I didn't need him when we met - I was very happy alone - and I won't need him if he were to leave me, I'll be very happy again after the heartbreak has healed. He knows that I don't NEED him and he loves knowing I'm with him because I really like him.

 

So no, I don't need a man at all. I even do DIY and kill spiders better than him!

[Woggle]

I think women have a hard time understanding after a few decades of hearing the fish and bicycle stuff why men hate to be with a woman who makes him feel useless and disposable and right or wrong that is how I would feel if my wife should she didn't need me. Nobody wants to be with somebody who feels the need to tell you how disposable you are to them. Women wouldn't like it either if a man constantly told you how unneeded you are so why do you expect a man to be with a woman that can take or leave them?

 

Technically nobody needs anybody but women don't make it a point to say they don't need their friends or need their family or anybody but the men in their lives. To me that shows they have some sort of chip on their shoulder against men and I would advise men to stay away from them just like I would advise women to stay away from men like this.

[Taramere]

I think women have a hard time understanding after a few decades of hearing the fish and bicycle stuff why men hate to be with a woman who makes him feel useless and disposable and right or wrong that is how I would feel if my wife should she didn't need me.

 

I think telling somebody "I don't need you" is a pretty hostile thing. It's hard to see what purpose there would be to saying that, other than to hurt somebody's feelings or perhaps express defensiveness. "You don't want/need/care about me...well, it doesn't matter because I don't need you". It might be unkind, or it might be lashing out - but either way it's childish. However, on this board we analyse things in a way that we probably wouldn't want to analyse them with a partner. I wouldn't tell somebody "I don't need you!" However, the fact remains that I don't really need them to survive. If a person contributes hugely towards my happiness (as tends to happen in a relationship) then obviously if they suddenly abandon me that's going to hurt horribly and I might even feel that I can't be happy again, without them.

 

But the bottom line is that unless I'm seriously ill/at the end of my life/otherwise in a situation where I can't take care of myself, it's a situation I'll survive. Not only that, but I'll experience happiness again simply by doing things that make me happy. We experience loss and heartbreak, and managing these things teach us that our ability to be happy is not generally killed with a loss. Even a major loss - though some particular losses might be especially hard to bear and might leave us with a few scars that will never heal. You can have scars that never heal, and still be capable of experiencing happiness. You can feel sad about not being with a partner who you connect with in a great way, yet still be capable of experiencing happiness.

 

Happiness is something we feel within ourselves. It's not something that others necessarily have the power to dispense or take away. People try. They provide lists about what is needed in order to make a human being - any human being - feel happy and fulfilled. In some ways, it's a bit of a controlling thing. "What you need, in order to be happy, is to do what I tell you. If you don't live your life as I dictate you should then you will never be happy." We'll all experience both happiness and sadness in our lives, and there's not really anything anybody else can do anything about, regardless of how much of a grasp they think they have on the art of being happy and fulfilled.

 

Nobody wants to be with somebody who feels the need to tell you how disposable you are to them. Women wouldn't like it either if a man constantly told you how unneeded you are so why do you expect a man to be with a woman that can take or leave them?

 

Of course they'll feel crappy in response to such an uncaring statement.

 

Technically nobody needs anybody but women don't make it a point to say they don't need their friends or need their family or anybody but the men in their lives. To me that shows they have some sort of chip on their shoulder against men and I would advise men to stay away from them just like I would advise women to stay away from men like this.

 

Exactly. You can not need somebody, in the very basic sense of the word "need" but still feel a great sense of loss if they leave your life. You'll feel it, but you'll deal with it....and it won't kill off your ability to be happy.

Edited September 25, 2015 by Taramere

[Woggle]

Taramere I agree with everything you say but often when women say stuff like this it is meant in a misandrist way and you can sense it in her demeanor. I like being with a woman who doesn't need my money or what I provide materially but I know she doesn't see me as some disposable entertainment who she would just shrug off if I dropped dead. It seems that is the way some women see the men in their life.

[Got it]

I think it is sad to believe that we need external validation to be fulfilled. Very unBuddistlike (as there are most definitely other religions than Christianity).

 

My husband and I don't need each other to be fulfilled, but we want each other. We actively choose each other every day not out of need or self incompletion but out of desire and love.

 

Maybe different ways to look at it but I see "needing" someone to be an unhealthy codependency and not coming to them as a healthy and mature adult.

 

And arguing what God did/does falls on deaf ears, and is actually insulting, to assume everyone else follows these philosophies and assumptions.

[readynow]

Technically nobody needs anybody but women don't make it a point to say they don't need their friends or need their family or anybody but the men in their lives. To me that shows they have some sort of chip on their shoulder against men and I would advise men to stay away from them just like I would advise women to stay away from men like this.

 

I would never tell my man or anyone in my life that I didn't need them. That is so unnecessary and unfair. Just like I would be very hurt if my man felt the need to tell me that. I'm speaking more from the POV of the OP making it seem independence from men (or vice versa) is an impossible thing.

[eye of the storm]

My exH goes from relationship to relationship because he needs a woman to be happy/fulfilled. They usually end because the woman is unable to make him truly happy inevitably they leave and he is on to the next one.

 

Now, I will admit that I did not get into a super healthy relationship but it lasted a bit over 5 years and I was happy with myself. He did not complete me. He was like the icing on a cupcake. I like cupcakes, icing makes cupcakes better, but even if I don't have icing I would still enjoy the cupcake.

 

I do not need a partner to be fulfilled. I need to be happy with myself. I need to be fulfilled with myself. Partners leave, partners die. Things happen. You must be a whole complete person all by yourself. If you are not then you are cheating your partner and making them responsible for your emotions.

[Taramere]

Taramere I agree with everything you say but often when women say stuff like this it is meant in a misandrist way and you can sense it in her demeanor. I like being with a woman who doesn't need my money or what I provide materially but I know she doesn't see me as some disposable entertainment who she would just shrug off if I dropped dead. It seems that is the way some women see the men in their life.

 

People can be horrendous in the things they say to hurt eachother, and rarely more than when they're in defensive mode or when they believe somebody is trying to disempower/sabotage them in some way (and when people are in conflict, they do tend to go down that road of being increasingly mistrustful of the person they're in conflict with).

 

It can take a lot for one person to break or put a halt to the kind of downward spiralling exchange that is peppered with hateful or disparaging comments that are made in a defensive manner. Especially as those comments often are likely aimed at hurting the other person or sabotaging their self confidence.

 

Most people aren't completely callous, hateful psychopaths who see others as disposable - even if occasionally they can come across that way. Obviously if you encounter somebody who really does seem to be that way, the only thing to do is cut your dealings with them.

 

If it's more a case of people saying stuff like that because they're lashing out defensively, I think the best thing is to lay down boundaries. Let them know that unless they commit to a better, less abusive way of dealing with whatever pain they're feeling then whether or not they need you they're going to have to find a way of managing without you.

[Grumpybutfun]

People can be horrendous in the things they say to hurt eachother, and rarely more than when they're in defensive mode or when they believe somebody is trying to disempower/sabotage them in some way (and when people are in conflict, they do tend to go down that road of being increasingly mistrustful of the person they're in conflict with).

 

It can take a lot for one person to break or put a halt to the kind of downward spiralling exchange that is peppered with hateful or disparaging comments that are made in a defensive manner. Especially as those comments often are likely aimed at hurting the other person or sabotaging their self confidence.

 

Most people aren't completely callous, hateful psychopaths who see others as disposable - even if occasionally they can come across that way. Obviously if you encounter somebody who really does seem to be that way, the only thing to do is cut your dealings with them.

 

If it's more a case of people saying stuff like that because they're lashing out defensively, I think the best thing is to lay down boundaries. Let them know that unless they commit to a better, less abusive way of dealing with whatever pain they're feeling then whether or not they need you they're going to have to find a way of managing without you.

 

Exactly, I see this less as a gender thing (sexist, misandrist or misogynistic) and just as people protecting their ego. Boundaries are hard for people to get...they don't know how to place them and they don't know how to respect them. Maturity helps sometimes but sometimes people have such a lack of empathy, compassion or self realization they just can't understand the concept of controlling impulses.

G

[veggirl]

A good man is someone I do need in order to be my most happy!

 

I also need my family and my best friends to be my most happy. I don't see the difference, I absolutely do need people in my life to be my most happy!

[Woggle]

People can be horrendous in the things they say to hurt eachother, and rarely more than when they're in defensive mode or when they believe somebody is trying to disempower/sabotage them in some way (and when people are in conflict, they do tend to go down that road of being increasingly mistrustful of the person they're in conflict with).

 

It can take a lot for one person to break or put a halt to the kind of downward spiralling exchange that is peppered with hateful or disparaging comments that are made in a defensive manner. Especially as those comments often are likely aimed at hurting the other person or sabotaging their self confidence.

 

Most people aren't completely callous, hateful psychopaths who see others as disposable - even if occasionally they can come across that way. Obviously if you encounter somebody who really does seem to be that way, the only thing to do is cut your dealings with them.

 

If it's more a case of people saying stuff like that because they're lashing out defensively, I think the best thing is to lay down boundaries. Let them know that unless they commit to a better, less abusive way of dealing with whatever pain they're feeling then whether or not they need you they're going to have to find a way of managing without you.

 

I understand this because I used to be like this but I know when I was like this I was anything but strong. People lash out because they are scared which is what I was back then. I still have fears but I know better how to control them in healthy ways. I think I became stronger when I stopped thinking like that.

[Dolfin80]

I think I'm one of these women you are talking about.

 

I don't seem to want or need a man.

 

I'm not that attracted to them and seem to enjoy doing things by myself.

 

I never get lonely, so I don't seem to have any desire to find anyone.

 

I don't see what all the fuss is about. Don't really know why people seek out relationships because I have no desire to do that.

 

I seemed to have a very high level of independence where I have no desire nor attraction to men.

 

I have never met anyone like myself either.

[thefooloftheyear]

Having a bunch of cats is always the default option...

 

TFY

[Dolfin80]

Having a bunch of cats is always the default option...

 

TFY

 

Haha I cant have cats cause I travel a lot overseas.

[Quiet Storm]

I love my husband and expect to be with him until the day I die:love:, but I don't need him. My childhood taught me that I can find happiness in the worst of situations. Just like an abused and abandoned dog that still wags her tail, I am strong and will find my joy, regardless.

[Krieger]

Woman do need men because if we went back to the caveman days and hit you over the head and took what we wanted what would females do about it?

 

That being said a lot of woman say they don't need men OK fine stop asking men for things.

 

Society tell us men we are not needed and we are just sperm donors and any female that feel that way are POS IMO.

 

I am totally OK with woman feel they do not need a man to be happy my only beef is when like I said woman say men are not needed in society .

[RedRobin]

Taramere I agree with everything you say but often when women say stuff like this it is meant in a misandrist way and you can sense it in her demeanor. I like being with a woman who doesn't need my money or what I provide materially but I know she doesn't see me as some disposable entertainment who she would just shrug off if I dropped dead. It seems that is the way some women see the men in their life.

 

 

I don't think it is misandrist as much as lots of women get tired of society assuming we are weak and helpless without a man... and it's implied that its not just good enough that we have a man in our life, but we must also be married and he's the head of the household too.

 

 

How would you feel, as a man, to be told that you were worthless as a 'man' if you weren't married? And not only married, but that your spouse was supposed to be in charge too, or else you aren't doing your part as a (fill in the blank). Would you like that? How about if it was getting shoved down your throat on a regular basis that you aren't normal unless you are 'submitting' to your husband or to God's will for your life, as a woman.

 

 

This is more or less what the religious right is telling most of us, if you ask me. I get really sick and tired of this one way garbage directed at women, telling us it's our fault for the breakdown of the family, blabbety blah. You know, it takes two to tango.

 

 

We women aren't little children that NEED tending to, anymore than men are little children that need mommying. It rather sucks to have to keep pointing out that most women just want a happy life with a guy who cares about them and vice versa. I don't think it is any more complicated than that...

 

 

... if it is your perception that there are just bucketloads of misandrist women running around saying they don't NEED men, that's likely because of what I said above. It has nothing to do with their day-to-day relationships with decent men who don't hold the kind of beliefs that make lots of women want to run the other way.

[Els]

I admire you because out of all of the posts here, you present a Christian and biblical view of it. That says a lot to me.

 

God did say that it is was not good for "man to be alone", goes back to Genesis.

 

God made the woman for the man, and for the purpose that he should have a companion

 

If what you're looking for is Christian discussion of the subject, then it might be a better idea to post on Christian forums, or at least on the Spirituality subforum.