"Independence from men,,,,,"

[PaperCrane]

Tell me about it. On a more positive note, the last one I took in didn't have a wire obsession. He simply kept me protected from psychotic toilet paper and paper towel rolls...

 

 

...by removing them from their storage places and ripping them to shreds in my living room. Apparently, he was fiber-deficient and chose to self-medicate.

 

Oh neat! They'd get along with my cats. No paper towels shall ever infringe upon our lands, lest they become playthings to entertain my felines at 4 a.m..

 

I also have to keep an eye on what I say around my walls. The cats talk to them too much and I think they're giving out my secrets.

 

On the whole topic of the OP though, I feel that irregardless of independence or changing societal norms, people need a partner to feel a sense of fulfilled happiness. Sometimes part of that is the feeling of being useful to them, or being needed. Each person has their own needs structure.

 

For me, I like feeling that I can be useful to the person I love. Not that I'm just there as an ornament decorating their life, rather that I'm part of it and enhancing it as they're enhancing my own. A level of interdependence not to be mistaken for co-dependence. A happiness not created by them, but a happiness built stronger because of them. To get there I understand that I do need a woman.

 

Maybe I have a wrong way of thinking. I'm sure I'll find out sooner or later.

[Grumpybutfun]

Well, this was taken from another thread (and it is what I wrote on it), but certainly worth its own discussion…. so here goes…..

 

 

the idea that "I don't need a man".

 

Thats also against basic human nature as well as nature itself.

 

It is flawed thinking, and I see a lot of it out there now and believe it a result of todays conditioning of women as a whole.,.. and part of the larger picture of destroying the family unit.

 

I find that sad, but it is very pronounced out there now, and unfortunately so many women will fall for it, and it only leads to a lonely life in the end. They will and can have a lot of material things, but none of them will give them what they are made for, and that is the love of a man.

 

Many women seek out their own "independence" at a cost, and don't realize it, because it is so alluring, they can't help but ignore the lie.

 

What about this phrase "women don't need a man" makes you feel threatened? There is something you are internalizing from the changing status in women's rights and opportunities? Perhaps, this is about your insecurities and fears?

 

Honestly, I'm old fashioned and very into traditional roles for me and my bride, such as protection and nurture. I'm her rock and she is my soft place to land. My amazing wife doesn't need me. She is one of the most capable people I know. She likes me, loves me because I'm me, not because she needs my money or my muscles.

 

It is better, IMO, if women have equal opportunities and don't need men, because men know they are with us because they want to be, not because they need someone to financially or physically take care of them. I see that more as a father role and I want a partner, not a child.

 

Best,

Grumps

[Maggie4]

I meant to say "but I hope I don't need a woman to be happy".

 

Damn it. Now I'm unhappy.

 

ooh.. you slipped..

[ThugLifing]

He actually did say this, yesterday, about how much happier everyone was "back then."

 

http://www.loveshack.org/forums/general/general-relationship-discussion/549393-why-so-many-rules

 

:rolleyes:

 

Lol.

 

OP - what has changed since back then is there is more equality for women. Thankfully women have been able to evolve because their role in society wasn't always a fun one "back then" since it wasn't (and still isn't 100%) equal. I'm 28 and wasn't around then, but I would guess while you may have thought women were happier being housewives then, they just couldn't express themselves freely to say otherwise.

 

I guess I could be labeled a feminist and I'm a man. From what I know a feminist is someone who wants equal rights for all people no matter the gender. I'm far from gay, have no trouble getting laid, will only date respectable, intelligent, and yea, your feared independent women. My masculinity isn't threatened this and don't understand why yours seems to be.

 

I'm not sure how old you are but your way of thinking sounds immature. Man up and get with the times or you're going to be the lonely one waiting forever for your lady servant to wed and pro create with.

[RecentChange]

Needs vs. Fulfillment...

 

I don't NEED a man.... To provide for me, etc. I am the bread winner, and in many ways fulfill some of the traditionally male roles in a relationship. I can open my own jars, do the yard work, and change the oil in my car

 

(Grew up with a single father - who always taught me to never be dependant on a man - he wanted to make sure I could stand on my own two feet)

 

But I enjoy sharing my life with a man, and I like the fulfillment being in a relationship brings to my life.

 

Do I NEED love, and a satisfying relationship? Yes, I think I do. Do I NEED man to fulfil other roles in my life, take care of me etc, no not really, I have that covered.

 

As for this individuality affecting the traditional family - maybe so, as I have never wanted to be a mother, and have no intention of ever having children. That is one role that never appealed to me.

[Woggle]

I am not one of those guys who needs a woman dependent on me but when a woman feels the need to shout how much she doesn't need men I always get the feeling there are some misandrist tendencies and it is better to stay away. Any adult should be able to stand on their own but constantly saying how useless the other sex is in your life is a red flag to me.

[Nikki Sahagin]

Well, this was taken from another thread (and it is what I wrote on it), but certainly worth its own discussion…. so here goes…..

 

 

the idea that "I don't need a man".

 

Thats also against basic human nature as well as nature itself.

 

It is flawed thinking, and I see a lot of it out there now and believe it a result of todays conditioning of women as a whole.,.. and part of the larger picture of destroying the family unit.

 

I find that sad, but it is very pronounced out there now, and unfortunately so many women will fall for it, and it only leads to a lonely life in the end. They will and can have a lot of material things, but none of them will give them what they are made for, and that is the love of a man.

 

Many women seek out their own "independence" at a cost, and don't realize it, because it is so alluring, they can't help but ignore the lie.

 

Well I don't believe that men and women NEED each other but we do WANT each other. We are biologically driven to mate and have relationships as well. We feel lonely/lost/depressed when we are able to mate or connect.

 

 

But culture has made a dramatic move from women being property/belongings to autonomous human beings so I think that's where 'I don't need a man stems from.'

 

 

What people NEED is mutual relationships not half-sided ones where the woman is the skivvy or the man is flashing all the cash.

[Guyouthere]

Well I don't believe that men and women NEED each other but we do WANT each other. We are biologically driven to mate and have relationships as well. We feel lonely/lost/depressed when we are able to mate or connect.

 

 

But culture has made a dramatic move from women being property/belongings to autonomous human beings so I think that's where 'I don't need a man stems from.'

 

 

What people NEED is mutual relationships not half-sided ones where the woman is the skivvy or the man is flashing all the cash.

 

I never saw women as property, it is wrong to do so. Men and women both want AND need each other. Biologically we are made that way. I think the woman should pay sometimes or else I might get tempted to put her through my meat grinder and make some shark chum. hehehe

[Toodaloo]

Right, here goes, I actually feel very strongly about this.

 

I don't need a man. While many of the men in my life are or have been nothing short of awesome there have been one or two that quite frankly near on destroyed my life and left me battling with all manner of problems, Over the years men have been directly involved in the loss of the following;

1. my sanity

2. my financial well being

3. my home

4. my life...

 

Now please tell me why on earth I should be so utterly stupid to suppose that I need a man in my life.

 

Looking back 2 years I was miserable, half dead, ill, living in filth, working my ass off as the one who supported us both financially... The misery also made me enormously fat in my pathetic attempts to cheer myself up.

 

Today I am single. My house is clean and tidy most of the time, I am healthy, more productive in my work, my expenditure is down and my enjoyment of life is up.

 

I have plenty of hugs when I want them. All I have to do is ask. If I want an orgasm I wank. If I feel "unfulfilled" I find projects to work on that make me feel more fulfilled.

 

But above all of that I want a man in my life. Not any old dross. I want a man that compliments my life and for me to compliment his. I want that connection and partnership.

 

I don't need it - I want it.

 

There is a very big difference.

 

All this clap trap about women breaking down society is utter tripe. Men have an equal part in that too. One thing I have found is that many middle aged single men have in fact run home to Mummy. So women are still holding up the men even in adulthood.

 

Come on guys. Step up your game. We have learnt how to live well with out you. Now its time for you to learn how to live well with out us. Perhaps then we have a chance of being able to fulfill our desires with people we want to be with rather than stick it out with people who are not really worth the bother.

[Woggle]

Right, here goes, I actually feel very strongly about this.

 

I don't need a man. While many of the men in my life are or have been nothing short of awesome there have been one or two that quite frankly near on destroyed my life and left me battling with all manner of problems, Over the years men have been directly involved in the loss of the following;

1. my sanity

2. my financial well being

3. my home

4. my life...

 

Now please tell me why on earth I should be so utterly stupid to suppose that I need a man in my life.

 

Looking back 2 years I was miserable, half dead, ill, living in filth, working my ass off as the one who supported us both financially... The misery also made me enormously fat in my pathetic attempts to cheer myself up.

 

Today I am single. My house is clean and tidy most of the time, I am healthy, more productive in my work, my expenditure is down and my enjoyment of life is up.

 

I have plenty of hugs when I want them. All I have to do is ask. If I want an orgasm I wank. If I feel "unfulfilled" I find projects to work on that make me feel more fulfilled.

 

But above all of that I want a man in my life. Not any old dross. I want a man that compliments my life and for me to compliment his. I want that connection and partnership.

 

I don't need it - I want it.

 

There is a very big difference.

 

All this clap trap about women breaking down society is utter tripe. Men have an equal part in that too. One thing I have found is that many middle aged single men have in fact run home to Mummy. So women are still holding up the men even in adulthood.

 

Come on guys. Step up your game. We have learnt how to live well with out you. Now its time for you to learn how to live well with out us. Perhaps then we have a chance of being able to fulfill our desires with people we want to be with rather than stick it out with people who are not really worth the bother.

 

I so sympathize with this because I used to feel this way about women but if you ever want a happy and healthy relationship you need to get past this idea of making every man pay for the sins of other men. I had to do it if I ever wanted a good relationship with a woman and the same applies with women.

[Taramere]

I so sympathize with this because I used to feel this way about women but if you ever want a happy and healthy relationship you need to get past this idea of making every man pay for the sins of other men. I had to do it if I ever wanted a good relationship with a woman and the same applies with women.

 

I don't know that Tood is making men generally pay for the sins of guys she has been in a relationship. Probably for both you and Tood - and lots of other people out there, you've had experiences that have forced you to analyse how you manage relationships and how you tend to be treated within relationships. But that process can be very painful, and will often involve a lot of anger towards past and even potential partners....which is where, I suppose, the "making all men/women pay for a few men's/women's ins" perceptions can come in.

 

I believe that many women out there invest a great deal of their time and energy into relationships. Taking a great deal of responsibility for the other person's happiness. Sometimes that tendency to invest highly can slip over into slight co-dependency. A desire to fix people in order to have a great relationship with them. To take responsibility for anything that goes wrong. There are men who are inclined towards that too, but I don't think it's a common male tendency in quite the way that it's a common female tendency.

 

Sometimes that slight co-dependency will in fact lead to a great relationship (most usually when the other person genuinely appreciates and responds to the effort). Other times it attracts manipulative people and destructive relationships into the life of the high emotional investor. Then when the relationship does finally end, the emotional investor's sense of failure, anger, revelations about effort being derided rather than appreciated etc can be acute. As can the shame of realising that some of the wonderful qualities associated with investing a great deal, emotionally, into relationships has its dark side...for which the emotional investor might have to take some responsibility before they move on.

 

Somebody who is a helper/emotional investor by nature will probably always need to return to being that sort of person in order to feel harmonious. Maybe, after a bad relationship, they will be more inclined to devote their energies to friends, family, colleagues, people who need help, animals, causes etc...and take more care to ensure that they invest in people/situations where the level of appreciation and validation returned to them is higher than they ever experienced within a bad relationship. And I say women, but I know that's unfair - because I think the same applies to men who tend to invest a great deal emotionally.

 

Ideally, the high emotional investor will find a partner who appreciates their efforts and who don't take the opportunity to exploit, manipulate or boost their own ego at the emotional investor's expense. In practice, unfortunately that often is the outcome for people who invest a lot emotionally. They might be fantastic for other people to be in a relationship with for as long as the emotional investor is placing their own needs on the backburner in the quest to focus on the other person's happiness - but the relationship might feel far less wonderful and fulfilling for the emotional investor themselves.

 

The most usual advice for people who want a good, solid relationship is "you must be prepared to work hard at a relationship..." But, for some people, the more appropriate advice might well be "you must ensure your most important relationships are with people who genuinely appreciate the work you are prepared to put in - and who demonstrate that appreciation by putting time and effort into the relationship themselves."

Edited September 25, 2015 by Taramere

[GoodOnPaper]

Come on guys. Step up your game. We have learnt how to live well with out you. Now its time for you to learn how to live well with out us.

 

What does that even mean? You seem to value a high level of responsibility -- I have that in spades and all that did was get me deemed as "boring" to girls. It's short-term attractive qualities, not the long-term ones that seem to be rewarded. How does one "step-up" in that fashion?

[Els]

 

Lots of plenty of women in nursing homes who have money, and yet found themselves alone because they were too "independent".

 

Actually the vast majority of people alone in nursing homes were in marriages or LTRs at some point of their life - they either divorced/separated or their partner died before them. Having a relationship/marriage, even a good one, is not an insurance against being alone at some point in the future.

 

Anyway, what's your point? Do you really want to be with a woman who just needs a man, any man, to fill a man-shaped void? If so, there are such women out there, go for them. Some men prefer to be desired and wanted instead of 'needed', and those men are more compatible with the women you dislike.

[Robert Z]

Yes, life is better & more fun with him in it. He's an added bonus not a necessity.

 

I'm sure he would be glad to know that you don't really need him.

 

 

Just a buddy and a good roommate eh?

[Robert Z]

One thing I have found is that many middle aged single men have in fact run home to Mummy. So women are still holding up the men even in adulthood.

 

 

A search seems to show it is primarily women who are moving back in with their parents.

 

 

The mid-life shame of moving back in with mum and dad: How failed relationships are forcing more and more middle aged women back into their childhood bedrooms

Failed relationships are forcing more middle aged women back into their parent's homes | Daily Mail Online

[mrldii]

I'm sure he would be glad to know that you don't really need him.

 

 

Just a buddy and a good roommate eh?

 

 

What an odd correlation to make!

 

Since I'm also a woman who doesn't need a man, but instead wants a man,

 

I'll bet d0nnivan and her man have tons of [good, healthy, happy and] frequent sex. Having [good, healthy, happy and] frequent sex is one of the best ways to show your man he's wanted.

 

[Els]

What does that even mean? You seem to value a high level of responsibility -- I have that in spades and all that did was get me deemed as "boring" to girls. It's short-term attractive qualities, not the long-term ones that seem to be rewarded. How does one "step-up" in that fashion?

 

Actually most of the responsible guys I know are in relationships/married with women who appear to love them.

 

I'm sure he would be glad to know that you don't really need him.

 

 

Just a buddy and a good roommate eh?

 

On the contrary, the 'roommates' are oftentimes couples who got together just for the sake of having someone, anyone. It's confusing how some of you seem to want women to take a man, any man, even if they aren't attracted to him, just to have someone... that sounds like a surefire recipe for a sexless M.

[Robert Z]

What an odd correlation to make!

 

Since I'm also a woman who doesn't need a man, but instead wants a man,

 

I'll bet d0nnivan and her man have tons of [good, healthy, happy and] frequent sex. Having [good, healthy, happy and] frequent sex is one of the best ways to show your man he's wanted.

 

 

She said she doesn't need him. I was just going by what she said. When I love someone with all of my heart, I need them in my life. I am a big enough person to admit that. Of course I can live without them... like I can live without my arm.

Edited September 25, 2015 by Robert Z

[Els]

You said you don't need him. I was just going by what you said. When I love someone with all of my heart, I need them in my life. I am a big enough person to admit that. Of course I can live without them... like I can live without my arm.

 

Oh come on. I don't think you actually read the OP - this isn't the sort of need he was talking about at all. Needing a man/woman is not the same as getting to know a specific person and feeling that you need them in your life.

[stillafool]

 

Lots of plenty of women in nursing homes who have money, and yet found themselves alone because they were too "independent".

 

Or because their husbands died first and left them alone. The kids don't come over to visit. I visit a nursing home to see my aunt and you'd be surprised how many of those people do not get visits from their children. It's sad.

 

Women don't need a man. I was quite happy before I met my husband. I know plenty of single middle aged women who aren't married and have very full lives.

[Robert Z]

It's confusing how some of you seem to want women to take a man, any man, even if they aren't attracted to him, just to have someone... that sounds like a surefire recipe for a sexless M.

 

 

Who said that? Please provide a quote.

[Robert Z]

Oh come on. I don't think you actually read the OP - this isn't the sort of need he was talking about at all. Needing a man/woman is not the same as getting to know a specific person and feeling that you need them in your life.

 

So needing a person isn't needing a person. Got it.

[Els]

Who said that? Please provide a quote.

 

The OP, aka the starter of the thread you are posting in.

 

God still made us male and female.

 

Neither should be alone, and it goes against basic nature to feel so.

[mrldii]

She said she doesn't need him. I was just going by what she said. When I love someone with all of my heart, I need them in my life. I am a big enough person to admit that. Of course I can live without them... like I can live without my arm.

 

Yup. Just like you don't "need" your arm ("...I can live without my arm"), I can live without a man.

 

Using your analogy, since life is easier with my arm, I choose NOT to lob it off and use care when going about my day-to-day tasks to NOT lose it.

 

[Els]

Or because their husbands died first and left them alone. The kids don't come over to visit. I visit a nursing home to see my aunt and you'd be surprised how many of those people do not get visits from their children. It's sad.

 

Yeah, I was going to add that to my post. The majority of people alone in nursing home are women, partly because women live longer on average, and partly also due to the older man-younger women pairings that are more common than the reverse. If a woman's average life expectancy is 80 and a man's 75, and a woman pairs up with a man who is 10 years older than her, then there is a fairly high chance of her being a widow at around 65, and being alone for the last 15 years of her life unless she meets someone new.

 

Especially given that the majority of geriatrics were raised in an era where men were still the main providers and it was more difficult than it is now for a single woman to support herself, I think it's pretty safe to say that 'independence' has very little to do with the nursing home issue.