things have been going downhill, but last night about put me over

[notdeadyet]

Hi. I am a long time lurker on this and another site and I have read some books lately on relationship issues and I am to the point I need to get something off my chest and get some input from others.

 

 

I am afraid this will be long and rambling and I am afraid I will come off sounding more like a whiner than anything but I am just so frustrated and sad and exasperated, I am afraid I am going to say or do something that will just throw gas on the fire.

 

 

I'll try to give some brief background but there is more to the story than I can fit here and you can ask me for more specific info.

 

 

Background I am early 50s, my wife turned 48 yesterday (more on that to come) We will be married 20 years next month. two kids DD 13, DS 11. We moved into a brand new development in an ideal suburb last summer. Don't know our neighbors well but everyone seems nice and most are attractive professionals in their early 30s-mid 40s with a few others closer to our age to slightly older.

 

 

THE BACKSTORY: for the past few years, my wife's libido has been dropping off the charts and she has realistically lost probably 90% of her libido and desire for me.

 

 

We also had some marital issues going back a little before that and have seen a couple counselors. The 'D" word was brought up a couple times at that time but we both agreed we didn't want that and we both went into counseling in good faith.

 

 

Things seemed to get better and we moved forward and all in all life has been pretty decent for the most part.

 

 

in regards to her desire, things have been going downhill rapidly over that last couple years. We still average making love about every week-week 1/2 but she is getting very disengaged is basically just appeasing me.

 

 

I initiate essentially 99% of the time now and she will lay there scratching her head and pushing her hair out of her face and scratching her nose and I'll catch her looking at the clock. Some times she won't even touch me with her hands. Often times she will have a look of pain and disgust on her face no matter how many buckets of quality lube we use or how slow and gentle I go. (and I am just normal sized if you know what I mean)

 

 

This happens more often than not now.

 

 

last week she was doing this real bad and I finally stopped and said we could try again when she was more in the mood (which I know she probably won't be)

 

 

I honestly did try my hardest not to act upset or make an issue of it, but I am sure she could sense my frustration.

 

 

The next morning she apologized and said she's just having issues with desire and discomfort. we tried to have a talk about it but she is very reserved in such discussions and has a tendency to get very defensive and angry no matter how gentle and understanding and nonjudgemental I try to be.

 

 

She admitted that much of the time she is...and I quote.... "taking one for the team." and she is doing it to appease me.

 

 

In regards to her discomfort, she has seen a doctor for this and was told it's menopause and this is how it is. She was prescribed an estrogen pill and she states it has helped slightly but it's still an issue much of the time and the doctor basically said it's something every woman has to deal with so basically tell your husband to shut up and live with it.

 

 

During our discussion she did say she wanted more nonsexual affection during the day, which I would normally be fine with as I am a naturally affectionate person. But anymore when I try to hug her, I can feel her tense up and turn away from me slightly. when I try to kiss her she will give me a "grandma smack" and turn away. If I reach out to touch her she will pull away. We haven't kissed deeply or passionately in years. Just lots of grandma smacks and a few longer kisses during sex that I know she is just doing to appease me.

 

 

Now I need to add at this point that we used to have an awesome sex life that would make porn stars jealous. She would have anywhere from a handful to over a dozen orgasms per session. Now we are lucky if we have one little one and I know darn well she is faking a number of those just to get it over with. I haven't called her out on the faking because I don't want to make her any more self conscious or throw any more gas on the fire.

 

 

I also need to add that she is a beautiful woman and still turns heads of even guys in their early 30s. I have always been average looking and average height and weight and I am shaved bald, but I have not let myself go. I am 5'11", 185 lbs. I don't have visible abs anymore but I do work out and have visible muscular development in my arms, shoulders, pecs etc and I do not have a pot or beer belly (I don't drink at all, more on that later) I groom well and dress well in public (love my jogging pants and tshirts at home LOL) I have a skilled/technical career and a decent skilled income. We have a beautiful new house in an idyllic suburb, the kids are doing well and we have two nice cars and two nice motorcyles in the garage. Point being, I am no slouch.

 

 

(she also has good career, works fulltime and has an annual income either slightly more or slightly less than mine)

 

 

The background problem is I am starting to get very dissatisfied and frustrated and sad over the lack of intimacy and passion in our marriage. I really really really miss the passion and closeness we used to have.

 

 

And I'm not really mad at her or disappointed in her or anything like that. It's that this is making me feel undesirable and unworthy and I feel like a creeper and a pervert when I want to make love to her.

 

 

And while I do NOT have a history of jealousy or possessiveness or a suspicious nature at all, I will admit that lately I have been getting concerned that if some else came along that caught her eye, she'd be gone in a heartbeat.

 

 

I have actively looked for signs of an affair or that there was someone else out there. I have gotten into her emails, her Facebook, her phone etc. I have gone through her purse, her car, her drawers etc with a fine tooth comb like a detective to see if I come across anything that might point to a 3rd party but have found nothing.

 

 

To my knowledge she has never strayed.

 

 

One of the issues here is I am getting so frustrated and sad that I am afraid it's getting so if there is some kind of event or stressor, that it will push me over and I'll say or do something that pushes things over the edge.

 

 

And so that brings us up to last night. I was afraid last night would be that even and I hoping I can cool off and chill out before things get worse.

 

 

I don't intend this to be a cliffhanger but I need to stop and collect my thoughts before proceeding on and to give you a chance to read this post on the background and ask me any questions you up to this point.

 

 

I do want to add that nothing truly bad happened last night and there was no true "event." she did not actually cheat and there wasn't any big fights or anything, but I do feel like I/we may have dodged a bullet. But I don't know if another round might be getting chambered in the gun.

 

 

more to follow.

Edited September 27, 2015 by notdeadyet

[notdeadyet]

LAST NIGHT:

This instalment will be about the events of last night that really stung me for some reason and have my brain all scrabbled up all over the board.

 

 

Yesterday was her birthday and I have been making plans to take her out and have some fun. For an unrelated reason she has been kooped up in the house and really needed to get out for some fun. As more background, she is definitely not a social butterfly and doesn't like to mingle or smalltalk or chitchat much and she only has a very group of friends that she considers close and is very comfortable with. I called around to our usual circle of friends and no one was able to get out last night. So I ended up contacting some neighbors of ours that we have chatted with a number of times and have been wanting to get to know better and be on more friendly terms with and they were the only ones able to get out.

 

 

I appointed myself the DD and said people could drink and be merry and I would get everyone where they wanted to go and be their chauffer and get everyone back home safe and sound. We went out to a number of places, had some drinks and generally had a lot of fun with laughs and getting to know each other. towards the end of the evening out on the town my wife had had a lot to drink and was definitely drunk. She was loosening up and I could tell that she was getting to her horny stage of drunk. I was thinking "ALRIGHT!" and hoping that when we got home, we may have some fun and celibrate her bday in style.

 

 

But what actually started happening is she started getting very flirty and touchy with the neighbor man and was basically either giving me the brush off or was trying to get me to hold her drinks or fetch people more drinks and basically being her go-for. I wasn't having any part of that and refusing to be people's go-fer.

 

 

before we left she even started dirty dancing with him and was laughing and having a good time and grinding herself up and down on him. I would normally be ok with that and we have been out dancing hundreds of times and it has all been in good fun and I must make clear I am NOT the jealous or suspicious type and I am not controlling nor do I tell her what she can and cannot do.

 

 

What was upsetting and hurting me was she hasn't danced like that or flirted or laughed like that with me in years.

 

 

We soon decided to head back to the house and hang out at our house. We headed home but when we got back, several of the men (4) from the neighborhood were hanging out drinking and shooting the crap in another neighbors driveway.

 

 

Instead of heading into our house, my wife and the couple we went out with headed over to the other neighbors driveway and pulled out chairs and sat down and started hanging out with them.

 

 

We knew a couple of them by face and name but did not know them well. They all seem nice and are all attractive and successful men in their 30s with attractive wives but it was just guys there hanging out.

 

 

anyway my wife again started getting very flirty and talking smack with these other men and of course they were digging it and were egging her on and she was definitely digging the attention they were giving her and of course they were making a bid deal about her bday and guessing she was 35 etc etc.

 

 

I was basically ok with this but I was really hoping that she would want to come home and party with me if you know what I mean. I didn't want to be a party pooper so I stayed and did my best to be a fun neighbor and enjoy the company.

 

 

Now I must make clear, that even though I don't drink, I can party with the best of them and can tear it up cold sober than most guys half my age can drunk. It's not like I am a fun hater or stuffed shirt.

 

 

so she is drunk and flirty and flirting up all these guys which is way out of character for her. She rarely drinks at all, very rarely gets legally intoxicated and since we have been together she has never got into any trouble or done anything bad while drunk. I do want to make that point clear as well.

 

 

They all started playing "Truth or Dare" and all were egging her on to reveal racey truths and get her to do dares. A couple times I had to impose what I called "Spousal Vetos!" but for the most part it was kept at harmless Saturday night fun amongst social neighbors.

 

 

After two hours of this the female of couple we went out with announced she was going home and left my wife as the only female with 5 other men and myself.

 

 

She was wanting to keep going and wanting to keep playing the games and I said we could stay a few more minutes and that it was after midnight and we had things to do this morning.

 

 

After a few more minutes I said it was time to go and got up told the gang good night and thanked them for having us over. She stood fast and ignored my announcement to leave and appeared to continue to play.

 

 

I put on my "This is not a request or option voice" and tapped her solidly on the shoulder. She sat there looking pissed for a moment or two and then got up and we went home.

 

 

When we got home she fiddle-farted around the house to avoid me and basically gave me the cold shoulder. We got ready for bed and she plopped herself in bed and was snoring like a lumber truck in about 2 minutes.

 

 

Here is what is bothering me in all of this. She has never given me a legitimate reason to question her fidelity before but the hairs on the back of my bald neck were standing up and I truly sense in the pit of my gut that if I had not been there and had not put on the brakes when I did and had not taken her home, that she would have done something truly inappropriate.

 

 

Now please understand I am not saying she would have gang banged the whole neighborhood. But I really believe that at minimum she would have behaved in a manner that would have discredited her and us as a couple in the neighborhood. and I can't rule out that she may possibly have even had some kind of actual contact with one of more of them if I hadn't been there and other neighbor wife hadn't been there.

 

 

It does also bother me that she was dancing and flirting and getting touchy with our neighbor in a way that she hasn't with me in a long long time.

 

 

But what probably bothers me most in all of this is that on her birthday, she would rather flirt up and play jr high sex games with a group of our neighbors and be irked at me, rather than end the night in a special way with me.

 

 

Now this was her bday and not mine, so it's not like I was feeling entitled to night of hot sex. I was going to play it cool and do whatever she wanted and wasn't going to push for sex if she didn't want to. I would have been cool if she just wanted to go out or some fun and then come home and chill and maybe have some close time or cuddle time if she wasn't up for actual sex.

 

 

But it really hurt me that she basically didn't want ANYTHING to do with me and wanted to spend the night acting like a party girl to bunch of other men we don't even know well.

 

 

There is more that I will add in another instalment but I have other things I have to do to day and will add more later.

 

 

my question for the moment is, am I just being a whiny bitch and out of line for feeling pissed and frustrated? Or do I have a legitimate grievance here????

[notdeadyet]

anyone? Am I just off base?

[toolforgrowth]

You have a legitimate grievance. She isn't respecting you and seems to be looking for an affair partner. I'd quietly talk to an attorney and put a voice activated recorder under the seat of her car. You need to put a stop to this ASAP and show her there are consequences for her actions.

[GorillaTheater]

Man oh man, I'm seeing my life flash before my eyes.

 

I'm about the same age as you, NDY, and I've been married even longer. This may or may not help, but I'll share my story and how I handled it. Understand I'm not advising you to handle it the same way because I'm not convinced that I didn't fumble it.

 

Around the time of our 25th anniversary, I began to notice my wife pulling away. I tried different things to fix it, but as we both know that ain't a one-man job; both spouses need to be on board. One of the defining moments in our recent marriage was her flirting pretty heavily with a friend of ours. She didn't have drinking as an excuse; she was perfectly sober. I shut it down as laughingly as I could fake, and when I talked to her afterwards ,telling her how uncomfortable that made me, I got the hell gas-lighted out of me.

 

It was a two-prong attack: "well, I guess I can't have any friends then" and "maybe it's YOU who are being inappropriate with women" implying that this was some kind of diversionary tactic on my part. I wasn't at that point familiar with terminology like"gas-lighting", but I sure knew when I was being BS'ed. If my wife was capable of that, what else was she capable of? That question nearly did my head in.

 

So what to do? I did the usual stuff to try to figure out if she was up to no good, but could never find anything. (There were a few other incidents besides this one that were setting off alarms). Another thing I did was get a hold of myself and essentially, get some emotional distance as I went into watchful waiting mode. Ironically, me distancing myself drew her closer, either as some kind of rubber-band effect or just being more carefree and confident, or both. That last sentence is important.

 

Things are okay now, but one thing that remains is my mindset. I went through all the worst-case scenarios in my mind, and survived them all. If my marriage implodes tomorrow, it'll suck and there will be hassles, but I know I'll be okay. That last sentence is even more important.

 

Have you talked to her about that night?

[notdeadyet]

Thanks for the responses. I will respond to your posts later this evening as I only have a few minutes right now.

 

 

 

 

I have a quick question about something else that came up Sat night.

 

 

As we were sitting around with the neighbors after we got back, people were talking about another woman they knew that was seeing guys off of Tinder.

 

 

My wife is not very tech or computer savy but she knew what Tinder was and seemed like she knew what the ramifications of someone being on Tinder was all about.

 

 

I had heard of it and knew it was some kind of dating site but when everyone looked at me and asked, "you do know what Tinder is right?" I had to confess I really didn't and so they had to explain to me it was basically a hook-up app that people used for hook ups.

 

 

The fact that my wife seemed to know all about it is another thing that set off some alarm bells. She works with some young, single gals so it's not shocking that she's heard of it, but she definitely gave off the vibes she was more familiar with it than I was (which admittedly isn't saying a whole lot.)

 

 

I don't want to be paranoid or jump to any wild conclusions or anything, but my question is, how do I check her laptop or phone etc to see if she has been on there?

 

 

I at least want to see if she knows about it through firsthand experience. I want to know how I find if she's been surfing Tinder or any other hook up sites or apps?

[toolforgrowth]

Man oh man, I'm seeing my life flash before my eyes.

 

I'm about the same age as you, NDY, and I've been married even longer. This may or may not help, but I'll share my story and how I handled it. Understand I'm not advising you to handle it the same way because I'm not convinced that I didn't fumble it.

 

Around the time of our 25th anniversary, I began to notice my wife pulling away. I tried different things to fix it, but as we both know that ain't a one-man job; both spouses need to be on board. One of the defining moments in our recent marriage was her flirting pretty heavily with a friend of ours. She didn't have drinking as an excuse; she was perfectly sober. I shut it down as laughingly as I could fake, and when I talked to her afterwards ,telling her how uncomfortable that made me, I got the hell gas-lighted out of me.

 

It was a two-prong attack: "well, I guess I can't have any friends then" and "maybe it's YOU who are being inappropriate with women" implying that this was some kind of diversionary tactic on my part. I wasn't at that point familiar with terminology like"gas-lighting", but I sure knew when I was being BS'ed. If my wife was capable of that, what else was she capable of? That question nearly did my head in.

 

So what to do? I did the usual stuff to try to figure out if she was up to no good, but could never find anything. (There were a few other incidents besides this one that were setting off alarms). Another thing I did was get a hold of myself and essentially, get some emotional distance as I went into watchful waiting mode. Ironically, me distancing myself drew her closer, either as some kind of rubber-band effect or just being more carefree and confident, or both. That last sentence is important.

 

Things are okay now, but one thing that remains is my mindset. I went through all the worst-case scenarios in my mind, and survived them all. If my marriage implodes tomorrow, it'll suck and there will be hassles, but I know I'll be okay. That last sentence is even more important.

 

Have you talked to her about that night?

 

I echo his sentiments about you pulling away. My ex wife had a full on physical affair. When I found out, I went scorched earth on her and pulled completely away. Divorce was filed and I was fully on board with kicking her out of my life. The same woman who said that neither me or our marriage was a priority to her suddenly started trying to get my attention and was visibly disappointed when I didn't allow it.

 

By the time her affair was over, I started hearing all about how ashamed she was and how she wanted to start spending time together again. I flat out said NO WAY and proceeded with divorce.

 

To this day she tries to be super nice to me, even though she's remarried. And every time I brush her off, she acts sad.

 

Showing them that you can live happily without them is the best thing you can do.

[GorillaTheater]

I don't want to be paranoid or jump to any wild conclusions or anything, but my question is, how do I check her laptop or phone etc to see if she has been on there?

 

 

I at least want to see if she knows about it through firsthand experience. I want to know how I find if she's been surfing Tinder or any other hook up sites or apps?

 

Here's a thread on another infidelity site that captures the ins and outs of the tech side of Trust But Verify:

 

Standard Evidence Post - Talk About Marriage

[ShatteredLady]

Just a little question on your first post. Has she been to a SPECIALIST & had a complete hormone work-up? Your GP saying its just menopause & you BOTH just have to suffer is twaddle!!

 

I know her behavior has been bad & that's a whole other subject but you do say she's upset about her drop in libido & she's pushed for medical help. Some docs know little to nothing about women's issues & are so insensitive.

 

My friend had similar problems with age & the change. She went to a specialist doc with great reviews. She now has prescriptions which she describes as 'Turning her into a horney teenage boy!'. Her poor husband is exhausted!! She's obsessed with him

[Popsicle]

I don't think your wife is cheating.

 

But it seems like she is prime for it.

 

She should appreciate and be happy that her husband a) is not apathetic and gets jealous about her flirting. B) still desires her after 20 years.

 

But maybe she's just over you, period, and her desire is not coming back. In which case you should think about what you want to do about that if that is the case.

[privategal]

LAST NIGHT:

This instalment will be about the events of last night that really stung me for some reason and have my brain all scrabbled up all over the board.

 

 

Yesterday was her birthday and I have been making plans to take her out and have some fun. For an unrelated reason she has been kooped up in the house and really needed to get out for some fun. As more background, she is definitely not a social butterfly and doesn't like to mingle or smalltalk or chitchat much and she only has a very group of friends that she considers close and is very comfortable with. I called around to our usual circle of friends and no one was able to get out last night. So I ended up contacting some neighbors of ours that we have chatted with a number of times and have been wanting to get to know better and be on more friendly terms with and they were the only ones able to get out.

 

 

I appointed myself the DD and said people could drink and be merry and I would get everyone where they wanted to go and be their chauffer and get everyone back home safe and sound. We went out to a number of places, had some drinks and generally had a lot of fun with laughs and getting to know each other. towards the end of the evening out on the town my wife had had a lot to drink and was definitely drunk. She was loosening up and I could tell that she was getting to her horny stage of drunk. I was thinking "ALRIGHT!" and hoping that when we got home, we may have some fun and celibrate her bday in style.

 

 

But what actually started happening is she started getting very flirty and touchy with the neighbor man and was basically either giving me the brush off or was trying to get me to hold her drinks or fetch people more drinks and basically being her go-for. I wasn't having any part of that and refusing to be people's go-fer.

 

 

before we left she even started dirty dancing with him and was laughing and having a good time and grinding herself up and down on him. I would normally be ok with that and we have been out dancing hundreds of times and it has all been in good fun and I must make clear I am NOT the jealous or suspicious type and I am not controlling nor do I tell her what she can and cannot do.

 

 

What was upsetting and hurting me was she hasn't danced like that or flirted or laughed like that with me in years.

 

 

We soon decided to head back to the house and hang out at our house. We headed home but when we got back, several of the men (4) from the neighborhood were hanging out drinking and shooting the crap in another neighbors driveway.

 

 

Instead of heading into our house, my wife and the couple we went out with headed over to the other neighbors driveway and pulled out chairs and sat down and started hanging out with them.

 

 

We knew a couple of them by face and name but did not know them well. They all seem nice and are all attractive and successful men in their 30s with attractive wives but it was just guys there hanging out.

 

 

anyway my wife again started getting very flirty and talking smack with these other men and of course they were digging it and were egging her on and she was definitely digging the attention they were giving her and of course they were making a bid deal about her bday and guessing she was 35 etc etc.

 

 

I was basically ok with this but I was really hoping that she would want to come home and party with me if you know what I mean. I didn't want to be a party pooper so I stayed and did my best to be a fun neighbor and enjoy the company.

 

 

Now I must make clear, that even though I don't drink, I can party with the best of them and can tear it up cold sober than most guys half my age can drunk. It's not like I am a fun hater or stuffed shirt.

 

 

so she is drunk and flirty and flirting up all these guys which is way out of character for her. She rarely drinks at all, very rarely gets legally intoxicated and since we have been together she has never got into any trouble or done anything bad while drunk. I do want to make that point clear as well.

 

 

They all started playing "Truth or Dare" and all were egging her on to reveal racey truths and get her to do dares. A couple times I had to impose what I called "Spousal Vetos!" but for the most part it was kept at harmless Saturday night fun amongst social neighbors.

 

 

After two hours of this the female of couple we went out with announced she was going home and left my wife as the only female with 5 other men and myself.

 

 

She was wanting to keep going and wanting to keep playing the games and I said we could stay a few more minutes and that it was after midnight and we had things to do this morning.

 

 

After a few more minutes I said it was time to go and got up told the gang good night and thanked them for having us over. She stood fast and ignored my announcement to leave and appeared to continue to play.

 

 

I put on my "This is not a request or option voice" and tapped her solidly on the shoulder. She sat there looking pissed for a moment or two and then got up and we went home.

 

 

When we got home she fiddle-farted around the house to avoid me and basically gave me the cold shoulder. We got ready for bed and she plopped herself in bed and was snoring like a lumber truck in about 2 minutes.

 

 

Here is what is bothering me in all of this. She has never given me a legitimate reason to question her fidelity before but the hairs on the back of my bald neck were standing up and I truly sense in the pit of my gut that if I had not been there and had not put on the brakes when I did and had not taken her home, that she would have done something truly inappropriate.

 

 

Now please understand I am not saying she would have gang banged the whole neighborhood. But I really believe that at minimum she would have behaved in a manner that would have discredited her and us as a couple in the neighborhood. and I can't rule out that she may possibly have even had some kind of actual contact with one of more of them if I hadn't been there and other neighbor wife hadn't been there.

 

 

It does also bother me that she was dancing and flirting and getting touchy with our neighbor in a way that she hasn't with me in a long long time.

 

 

But what probably bothers me most in all of this is that on her birthday, she would rather flirt up and play jr high sex games with a group of our neighbors and be irked at me, rather than end the night in a special way with me.

 

 

Now this was her bday and not mine, so it's not like I was feeling entitled to night of hot sex. I was going to play it cool and do whatever she wanted and wasn't going to push for sex if she didn't want to. I would have been cool if she just wanted to go out or some fun and then come home and chill and maybe have some close time or cuddle time if she wasn't up for actual sex.

 

 

But it really hurt me that she basically didn't want ANYTHING to do with me and wanted to spend the night acting like a party girl to bunch of other men we don't even know well.

 

 

There is more that I will add in another instalment but I have other things I have to do to day and will add more later.

 

 

my question for the moment is, am I just being a whiny bitch and out of line for feeling pissed and frustrated? Or do I have a legitimate grievance here????

 

Maybe its her own midlife crisis?

Maybe she feels stifled, trapped, old....matbe she wanted to let her hair down and feel drunk, free, uninhibited...you were right there...she didnt let you go to bed then sneak out to flirt?

I'll tell you women getting older, feeling listless and wanting to have fun, feel satisfied, feel part of a group and long for carefree fun...not an A, just not feeling old and washed up...the struggle is real.

If you try to father her or push closeness it seems to backfire.

Id not suffer blatant disrespect if I were you but she seems to be in a little internal turmoil right now. The passion may not be there. Its time for a heart to heart before you assume the worst of her.

[notdeadyet]

You have a legitimate grievance. She isn't respecting you and seems to be looking for an affair partner. I'd quietly talk to an attorney and put a voice activated recorder under the seat of her car. You need to put a stop to this ASAP and show her there are consequences for her actions.

 

I appreciate you took the time to respond. However I am not sure there are any actions that need consequences. What I am going to do, sanction her because she hung out with some neighbors instead of having sex with me on her birthday?

 

 

Same with the lawyer, I can't see an attorney because my wife of 20 shot the **** with some neighbors on her birthday instead of having sex with me.

 

 

I don't have any evidence of her ever cheating and she didn't cheat the other night. The only time she was ever out of my sight Sat night was when she went to the bathroom at the club and I saw her go in and come out and I didn't see any guys go in or come of there.

 

 

If I start seeing attorneys and she catches wind of it, she will find someone else and there will be a divorce whether I want one or not.

 

 

Same with the recorder. I don't have any real evidence. If she catches me spying on her, I'll be toast.

[notdeadyet]

Man oh man, I'm seeing my life flash before my eyes.

 

I'm about the same age as you, NDY, and I've been married even longer. This may or may not help, but I'll share my story and how I handled it. Understand I'm not advising you to handle it the same way because I'm not convinced that I didn't fumble it.

 

Around the time of our 25th anniversary, I began to notice my wife pulling away. I tried different things to fix it, but as we both know that ain't a one-man job; both spouses need to be on board. One of the defining moments in our recent marriage was her flirting pretty heavily with a friend of ours. She didn't have drinking as an excuse; she was perfectly sober. I shut it down as laughingly as I could fake, and when I talked to her afterwards ,telling her how uncomfortable that made me, I got the hell gas-lighted out of me.

 

It was a two-prong attack: "well, I guess I can't have any friends then" and "maybe it's YOU who are being inappropriate with women" implying that this was some kind of diversionary tactic on my part. I wasn't at that point familiar with terminology like"gas-lighting", but I sure knew when I was being BS'ed. If my wife was capable of that, what else was she capable of? That question nearly did my head in.

 

So what to do? I did the usual stuff to try to figure out if she was up to no good, but could never find anything. (There were a few other incidents besides this one that were setting off alarms). Another thing I did was get a hold of myself and essentially, get some emotional distance as I went into watchful waiting mode. Ironically, me distancing myself drew her closer, either as some kind of rubber-band effect or just being more carefree and confident, or both. That last sentence is important.

 

Things are okay now, but one thing that remains is my mindset. I went through all the worst-case scenarios in my mind, and survived them all. If my marriage implodes tomorrow, it'll suck and there will be hassles, but I know I'll be okay. That last sentence is even more important.

 

Have you talked to her about that night?

 

Thanks for sharing your experience. A few things you said have really struck a cord with me and there are some things I am going to try.

 

 

To answer your question, No I have not talked to her about it at all yet. I wanted to wait until I heard back from some people here first to make sure I am not just off my rocker and getting paranoid.

 

 

Even though I haven't talked to her yet, I can give you a pretty accurate dialogue of how it would go. This is based off of the times we have tried to talk about things in the past. Here is how it would look.

 

 

Me - "I was hoping we could have came home and had some special time together the other night on your birthday. I was kind of disappointed that you would rather hang out with some neighbors we really don't even know until the middle of the night rather than come home with me. And I am not comfortable with how much you were flirting and bantering with those other men."

 

 

Her - "Oh so here we go again. It's always about the sex for you isn't it" I can't do anything right and it's never enough for you. It's always about you isn't it. I can't hang out and get to know the people that live on our street because you want to have sex. "

 

 

I am paraphrasing and condensing of course, but that is exactly how it would go.

[notdeadyet]

Just a little question on your first post. Has she been to a SPECIALIST & had a complete hormone work-up? Your GP saying its just menopause & you BOTH just have to suffer is twaddle!!

 

I know her behavior has been bad & that's a whole other subject but you do say she's upset about her drop in libido & she's pushed for medical help. Some docs know little to nothing about women's issues & are so insensitive.

 

My friend had similar problems with age & the change. She went to a specialist doc with great reviews. She now has prescriptions which she describes as 'Turning her into a horney teenage boy!'. Her poor husband is exhausted!! She's obsessed with him

 

the person that saw her for her menopausal symptoms and put her on the estrogen for her vaginal dryness was a Physician Assistant from her Ob/gyn clinic. She didn't see an actual doctor.

 

 

a half dozen years or so ago she was having a real rough time and I was half afraid she'd kill me in my sleep. We started seeing a counselor who urged her to see a shrink and she ended up seeing a number of doctors and ended up getting diagnosed with a PMS disorder by an internal medicine doctor and ended up getting a uterine ablation and put on some meds for awhile and it really did help a lot.

 

 

But now she is menopausal and all she is being treated for is vaginal dryness and hot flashes with estrogen.

 

 

At this point, I need to determine if our issues are me or our relationship vs simply menopause or hormonal disorders.

 

 

I'd love to have my old wife back but the last thing I want to do is some kind of treatment that makes her "horny as a teenager" if she is attracted to other men and not attracted to me!!!

[notdeadyet]

I don't think your wife is cheating.

 

But it seems like she is prime for it.

 

She should appreciate and be happy that her husband a) is not apathetic and gets jealous about her flirting. B) still desires her after 20 years.

 

But maybe she's just over you, period, and her desire is not coming back. In which case you should think about what you want to do about that if that is the case.

 

I'm glad to hear you don't think she is cheating. I honestly do not think so either. As I tried to make clear in my earlier posts, she does not have a history of inappropriate behavior and I do not have a history of jealousy or being suspicious, paranoid etc etc.

 

 

I am certainly not the world's greatest husband but I have always loved her and tried to do right by her and our family. I'm not tall, dark and handsome or rich but I am a decent person and have always been nice to her. She openly admits that she has not always been nice to me.

 

 

Honestly, her being "over me" probably is my deepest fear. Yes I am concerned she may fall for someone else, but people do develop feelings and attractions for other people at times. That sucks, but it's natural. But to have someone that you have spent 20 years with and had 2 kids with just decide they don't love you and have no feelings for anymore is heartbreaking.

 

 

I hope none of those are the real case here.

[notdeadyet]

Maybe its her own midlife crisis?

Maybe she feels stifled, trapped, old....matbe she wanted to let her hair down and feel drunk, free, uninhibited...you were right there...she didnt let you go to bed then sneak out to flirt?

I'll tell you women getting older, feeling listless and wanting to have fun, feel satisfied, feel part of a group and long for carefree fun...not an A, just not feeling old and washed up...the struggle is real.

If you try to father her or push closeness it seems to backfire.

Id not suffer blatant disrespect if I were you but she seems to be in a little internal turmoil right now. The passion may not be there. Its time for a heart to heart before you assume the worst of her.

 

What you said makes a lot of sense.

 

 

I am not going to father her or push her. You and a couple of the other posters have given me some clarity on what I am going to do in the immediate upcoming days and weeks.

 

 

Unfortunately, having a heart to heart is rarely an option. If I try to talk openly about anything of any significance other than the kids or house repairs, she becomes very defensive and angry and it quickly decends into her accusing me of being self-centered and everything being about sex.

[bubbaganoosh]

Thanks for sharing your experience. A few things you said have really struck a cord with me and there are some things I am going to try.

 

 

To answer your question, No I have not talked to her about it at all yet. I wanted to wait until I heard back from some people here first to make sure I am not just off my rocker and getting paranoid.

 

 

Even though I haven't talked to her yet, I can give you a pretty accurate dialogue of how it would go. This is based off of the times we have tried to talk about things in the past. Here is how it would look.

 

 

Me - "I was hoping we could have came home and had some special time together the other night on your birthday. I was kind of disappointed that you would rather hang out with some neighbors we really don't even know until the middle of the night rather than come home with me. And I am not comfortable with how much you were flirting and bantering with those other men."

 

 

Her - "Oh so here we go again. It's always about the sex for you isn't it" I can't do anything right and it's never enough for you. It's always about you isn't it. I can't hang out and get to know the people that live on our street because you want to have sex. "

 

 

I am paraphrasing and condensing of course, but that is exactly how it would go.

 

And of course she will because your giving her all the ammo she needs to fire one salvo after another.

 

Look it's not bad enough that your getting the brush off in bed but then when you take her out for her birthday she treats you like crap and disrespects you the whole night and then tries to blame you for it, then your method to get the point across ain't working.

 

What you should have done the next day was let her know that her behavior the night before stunk the joint out, that it will be the last time that she ever disrespects you especially in a crowd and then you tell her that this will be the last time it happens.

 

I would also tell her that she needs to see another doctor real quick because the idea of being left out in the cold night after night and the lack of respect is getting old in the tooth and she better start helping herself.

 

Stop trying to whine your way into bed with her. If she wants sex with you then she knows that she needs to see a doctor that specializes in women problems and she has to help herself and by you just going along with the status quo isn't going to do anything but get worse.

 

What you need to do is let her know exactly how you feel about the whole situation and put it in her lap. Then she has the choice to either help herself and get squared away or you know where you stand.

[S2B]

And of course she will because your giving her all the ammo she needs to fire one salvo after another.

 

Look it's not bad enough that your getting the brush off in bed but then when you take her out for her birthday she treats you like crap and disrespects you the whole night and then tries to blame you for it, then your method to get the point across ain't working.

 

What you should have done the next day was let her know that her behavior the night before stunk the joint out, that it will be the last time that she ever disrespects you especially in a crowd and then you tell her that this will be the last time it happens.

 

I would also tell her that she needs to see another doctor real quick because the idea of being left out in the cold night after night and the lack of respect is getting old in the tooth and she better start helping herself.

 

Stop trying to whine your way into bed with her. If she wants sex with you then she knows that she needs to see a doctor that specializes in women problems and she has to help herself and by you just going along with the status quo isn't going to do anything but get worse.

 

What you need to do is let her know exactly how you feel about the whole situation and put it in her lap. Then she has the choice to either help herself and get squared away or you know where you stand.

 

Yes, I agree with all of these. ^^^^

 

 

Your wife won't have a decent conversation with you when you have a concern? What the heck is that? That's not right! Have a voice and speak your truth.

 

She's treating you terribly and you aren't saying anything. Say what's on your mind!!!

 

She picked that fight so she didn't have to have sex with you! That's manipulating!

 

She's totally disrespecting you in so many areas of your life.

 

She grinded on a man while dancing and you didn't say something? Come on man, that's terrible for her to behave that way!

 

She's too comfortable and believes you won't leave her = so she doesn't have any problem treating you like crap.

 

Affair or no affair - she isn't nice to you. You won't get her to Venice by being nicer to her. Start telling her this is completely unacceptable and if this is the way she expects your marriage to be - then you expect to get out now while you still have your self respect and dignity.

 

The more she thinks you're leaving her - the faster she may consider being nicer and participating more like a wife to you instead of treating you like her doormat.

 

 

Stop being so nice and accommodating!!!! She's not considering your needs, your feelings.

 

So begin pulling away unless she shows a complete change in the way she participates.

 

If she intends to act single and deprive you - then divorce her.

 

 

Earn some respect! She basically doesn't respect you.

Edited September 29, 2015 by S2B

[toolforgrowth]

Yes, I agree with all of these. ^^^^

 

 

Your wife won't have a decent conversation with you when you have a concern? What the heck is that? That's not right! Have a voice and speak your truth.

 

She's treating you terribly and you aren't saying anything. Say what's on your mind!!!

 

She picked that fight so she didn't have to have sex with you! That's manipulating!

 

She's totally disrespecting you in so many areas of your life.

 

She grinded on a man while dancing and you didn't say something? Come on man, that's terrible for her to behave that way!

 

She's too comfortable and believes you won't leave her = so she doesn't have any problem treating you like crap.

 

Affair or no affair - she isn't nice to you. You won't get her to Venice by being nicer to her. Start telling her this is completely unacceptable and if this is the way she expects your marriage to be - then you expect to get out now while you still have your self respect and dignity.

 

The more she thinks you're leaving her - the faster she may consider being nicer and participating more like a wife to you instead of treating you like her doormat.

 

 

Stop being so nice and accommodating!!!! She's not considering your needs, your feelings.

 

So begin pulling away unless she shows a complete change in the way she participates.

 

If she intends to act single and deprive you - then divorce her.

 

 

Earn some respect! She basically doesn't respect you.

 

Fantastic post.

 

My xWW didn't start respecting me until I began treating her like something I'd found on the bottom of my shoe. I backed up every word I said with action.

 

At the end of it all, when her affair was over and our divorce nearly final, she actually uttered these words: "I'm ashamed of my actions, and I respect you as Daughter's father."

 

That was the only time I can ever recall her saying she respected me for anything. That's because I behaved like a man; she disrespected me, so I took her ass to court, fought for my rights, and kicked her to the curb. We hardly ever interact, but when we do, she is extremely polite and accommodating.

 

My marriage ended because I chose to end it. I have never regretted that decision. She knows this, and respects it.

 

Expect her to fight you. Expect her to resist to you putting your foot down. She will be watching you as she does. You must not be afraid to lose her; she needs to see that you are prepared to move on without her, and that you have every confidence that your life will be great if you do.

 

It's time you put the fear of God (metaphorically speaking) into this woman.

[Mr. Lucky]

in regards to her desire, things have been going downhill rapidly over that last couple years. We still average making love about every week-week 1/2 but she is getting very disengaged is basically just appeasing me.

 

 

I initiate essentially 99% of the time now and she will lay there scratching her head and pushing her hair out of her face and scratching her nose and I'll catch her looking at the clock. Some times she won't even touch me with her hands. Often times she will have a look of pain and disgust on her face no matter how many buckets of quality lube we use or how slow and gentle I go. (and I am just normal sized if you know what I mean)

 

 

This happens more often than not now.

 

 

last week she was doing this real bad and I finally stopped and said we could try again when she was more in the mood (which I know she probably won't be)

 

 

I honestly did try my hardest not to act upset or make an issue of it, but I am sure she could sense my frustration.

 

 

The next morning she apologized and said she's just having issues with desire and discomfort. we tried to have a talk about it but she is very reserved in such discussions and has a tendency to get very defensive and angry no matter how gentle and understanding and nonjudgemental I try to be.

 

 

She admitted that much of the time she is...and I quote.... "taking one for the team." and she is doing it to appease me.

 

 

In regards to her discomfort, she has seen a doctor for this and was told it's menopause and this is how it is. She was prescribed an estrogen pill and she states it has helped slightly but it's still an issue much of the time and the doctor basically said it's something every woman has to deal with so basically tell your husband to shut up and live with it.

 

I'm going to come at this from a different direction. In many of the sexless marriage posts here, the low drive spouse is criticized for not making even a minimal effort to provide the intimacy they committed to sharing. Some of these posters have gone months and years between sexual episodes.

 

In contrast to that, your wife is making a effort to keep that connection alive. I understand it's not in the frequency or context you'd like but it sounds like she's struggling too. Id be grateful for what she's doing rather than frustrated by how she's doing it.

 

Your decision right now - glass half full or half empty? I'd guess she feels your resentment every day and it might be one of the factors in her acting out. Were it me, I'd try a little tenderness...

 

Mr. Lucky

[S2B]

I'm going to come at this from a different direction. In many of the sexless marriage posts here, the low drive spouse is criticized for not making even a minimal effort to provide the intimacy they committed to sharing. Some of these posters have gone months and years between sexual episodes.

 

In contrast to that, your wife is making a effort to keep that connection alive. I understand it's not in the frequency or context you'd like but it sounds like she's struggling too. Id be grateful for what she's doing rather than frustrated by how she's doing it.

 

Your decision right now - glass half full or half empty? I'd guess she feels your resentment every day and it might be one of the factors in her acting out. Were it me, I'd try a little tenderness...

 

Mr. Lucky

 

Maybe you haven't yet read about her drinking night...where she danced with the male neighbor in front of OP - including rubbing against this man and grinding on him while dancing...

 

And then playing flirty games like truth or dare with 5 male neighbors.

 

Then headed home when OP was disgusted and picked a fight with him so she didn't have to have sex with him...

 

 

She doesn't desire or respect him.

 

She looks like she's on the prowl.

 

He needs help being strong enough to expect HER to act like a wife. She's checked out.

[notdeadyet]

I need to make a couple quick clarifications. We did not have a fight the other night. The theoretical conversation that I mentioned in an earlier post is my assumption on how I assume it would have gone if I had brought it up. That assumption is based on past discussions we have had a few years ago when we were in counseling.

 

 

She typically does treat me with common courtesy. That hasn't always been the case though. There was a period of time when she was nice to the homeless drunk under the bridge but every word that came out of her mouth towards me was snide and snotty. That was one of the big issues addressed in counseling and the counselor basically told her if she wanted to be married at all, she better knock that off. And since then I do call her out on it and walk away if she's getting catty.

 

 

I just know in my gut that is how she would have reacted this weekend if I brought it up. It didn't actually happen.

 

 

I also want to reiterate that I have not been whining or bitching about our sexlife for the last couple years. It was another point of contention when we were in counseling but since then I have made a concerted effort not to be complaining or pressuring.

 

 

We did have a reasonably polite conversation last week about the decline in quality that she initiated and she apologized for being basically a dud in bed. I haven't brought anything up since then.

[notdeadyet]

I do have a couple other points I want to share that I didn't put in my opening posts due to time and space but I do want to get it out there so I will write a little more when I get a chance.

 

 

Thank you everyone for the input and feedback. You are giving me some good ideas on how I want to proceed from here.

[lucy_in_disguise]

I will preface by saying I am nowhere near your age, nor have I ever been married.

 

But the night you described sounds like a million nights I've had with friends and significant others when one or both of us have had too much to drink. Inappropriate humor/ flitation, poor decisions.... I'm not sure you can interpolate that she is cheating based on her actions one night when she was wasted. The way she behaved sounds pretty normal for a drunk person who may have some issues on the back of her mind, and wants to let loose for once. Everything she did, she did in front of you. I would interpret this not as disrespect, but poor decision making coming from a wasted person feeling safe with her husband right there to protect her.

 

You say this behaivior is not a regular thing for her, so I wouldnt even bother bringing it up. It was her birthday and it sounds like she had a good time, so let it go. It will juat make her feel bad to know what was fun for her ended up disappointing you- and I think she feels bad enough already. You will have other opportunities to go out and have a special night when you get home.

 

The sex issues obviously are a problem, but Im with Lucky- unlike many other spouses, at least she is trying. She has sought medical help, and still has sex, if only to appease you. I would continue to try to improve things on this front- get some counselling if you need to, get her to a better doctor, but let kindness and love be your guide- not all these other suggestions to treat her like s!ht.

[notdeadyet]

I will preface by saying I am nowhere near your age, nor have I ever been married.

 

But the night you described sounds like a million nights I've had with friends and significant others when one or both of us have had too much to drink. Inappropriate humor/ flitation, poor decisions.... I'm not sure you can interpolate that she is cheating based on her actions one night when she was wasted. The way she behaved sounds pretty normal for a drunk person who may have some issues on the back of her mind, and wants to let loose for once. Everything she did, she did in front of you. I would interpret this not as disrespect, but poor decision making coming from a wasted person feeling safe with her husband right there to protect her.

 

You say this behaivior is not a regular thing for her, so I wouldnt even bother bringing it up. It was her birthday and it sounds like she had a good time, so let it go. It will juat make her feel bad to know what was fun for her ended up disappointing you- and I think she feels bad enough already. You will have other opportunities to go out and have a special night when you get home.

 

The sex issues obviously are a problem, but Im with Lucky- unlike many other spouses, at least she is trying. She has sought medical help, and still has sex, if only to appease you. I would continue to try to improve things on this front- get some counselling if you need to, get her to a better doctor, but let kindness and love be your guide- not all these other suggestions to treat her like s!ht.

 

I want to be comforted by this but something about the other night was different. I wish I could cite objective facts as evidence of something being fishy but I don't have any facts or figures. What I have is a deep gut feeling she didn't want me around and that if I wasn't there standing guard, something would've happened. I don't know how to say this other than my instincts are not telling me she was comforted by her husband watching out for her so she cut loose and had fun. My gut is telling me she was frustrated that her husband was around to cockblock her fun. To be frank, I don't think she feels she had that much fun and that was because of me.

 

We've gone out countless times over the years and partied it up and everything was like you described. This was different. I can't describe how or why it was different without sounding crazy or paranoid, but it was different.

Edited September 29, 2015 by notdeadyet