things have been going downhill, but last night about put me over

[oldshirt]

Honestly, I think the balanced solution lies somewhere in between "woo her into your bed" and "make the bitch pay."

 

This was one drunken night. Yeah, it should be addressed, but doing the 180 over a birthday evening is a bit......much. So is doing the jump through hoops to ear sex routine.

 

I think honest conversation and loving behavior are the most normal, what offline people do, bet.

 

Yes it must be a balanced solution and not one of the extremes that both Sanylee and Toolforgrowth suggest.

 

Yes, I need to find a way to address her lack of desire for me and I need to have boundaries on what is and what is not acceptable behavior.

 

But at the end of the day she has to "want" to be with me and want to do things with me. It's not something I can demand or order her to do, nor is ignoring her or blowing her off going to fan the flames of desire.

 

For any marriage to be happy and healthy, there has to be fun and nuturing and respect etc along with responsibilities of paying the bills and getting the kids to all their stuff.

 

The 180 is for when someone has done something unacceptable and its time to move on with hour own life. That hasn't occurred yet.

 

How can I enforce consequences when the only thing I have to go on is a gut feeling she MIGHT have done something had I not been there???

 

What consequences are applicable when she wasn't in the mood to make a beast with two backs with me at the end of night on her bday????

 

Do you see the dilemma?

 

The real issue is more chronic and goes deeper into our dynamics than one night out that didn't go as I had hoped.

 

The real issue for me is her decreasing desire for me and her interest in sexuality with me that has been declining for a period of years and may be do at least in part to physiological forces that neither one of us can truly "fix."

 

Yes I was honked off the other night but I have nothing concrete to train the rifle sights on. I can tell her it upset me flirted with other dudes and then turned her back to me in bed, but she will just DARVO me and accuse me of whining and simply wanting more sex and making her feel inadequate again, and I really won't have anything to counter any of that with because it would just be me whining at that point.

[oldshirt]

.......in short, any actions I take will need to be reasonable and commensurate with what has actually happened and not what I feel in my gut MIGHT have happened.

[xxoo]

Why are you even talking about consequences?

 

There is a marriage problem. It involves both of you. Have you even attempted to understand why she might be feeling distanced from you in the past few years? Is this something that you just ignored until the birthday event?

 

I'm going to make some guesses here. I'm guessing that she is resentful because she feels like she must have sex with you, like it or not, because of the history of what happened when the babies were born. And that resentment got worse as you obviously noticed that she wasn't enjoying the sex, even displayed faces of discomfort, but you still expected it.

[autumnnight]

.......in short, any actions I take will need to be reasonable and commensurate with what has actually happened and not what I feel in my gut MIGHT have happened.

 

And THIS is one of many reasons I have so much respect for you

[autumnnight]

You two need counseling.

 

1) for her to learn what respect and honor looks like

How do you know she doesn't know what honor looks like..because she was inappropriate ONE night while drunk?

 

2) for you to learn to communicate with her without expecting her to get angry (that sucks!)

Yes.

 

3) for you to discuss any unresolved I'll feelings between the two of you and get them resolved

 

4) to allow your needs/wants to be heard AND considered

Yes, because it is a marital partnership, both their needs are important

 

5) for the dynamics and power shift within this Union to be balanced out

How do WE know what the overall balance of power is?

 

6) to determine if she expects to change her words/actions towards you

 

 

It's not right that your opinion, needs and desires have become invisible because you are afraid of her outcome.

 

Speak up man! Do it nicely. Get some help and guidance in getting to a better place within your marriage by having a voice and speaking YOUR truth!

 

For many, it starts with saying: when you do _____ I feel this. When you say ____ I hear ____ and it makes me feel ____. What can we do to change that? Let's work together towards a common goal of making this marriage better.

 

Responses in bold

[toolforgrowth]

Why are you even talking about consequences?

 

There is a marriage problem. It involves both of you. Have you even attempted to understand why she might be feeling distanced from you in the past few years? Is this something that you just ignored until the birthday event?

 

I'm going to make some guesses here. I'm guessing that she is resentful because she feels like she must have sex with you, like it or not, because of the history of what happened when the babies were born. And that resentment got worse as you obviously noticed that she wasn't enjoying the sex, even displayed faces of discomfort, but you still expected it.

 

We're talking about consequences because she disrespects him and was all over other men. It doesn't matter that it was only one night.

 

Would you be so understanding if your husband doesn't enjoy sex with you, got drunk on his birthday, and was grinding up against other women?

 

The OP can do what he wants. But I've already been down this path, and it led to infidelity. It wasn't until she faced harsh consequences for her inappropriate behavior that she actually started treating me like a human being again.

 

My two cents. Feel free to take 'em or leave 'em. But at this rate, I have a feeling about what's going to happen next. He'll be posting about D-Day and will have joined the ranks of BH's. And by then it'll be too late.

[autumnnight]

I gotta get off forums....

 

How many people think going in like some "Me boss of woman who need behave" caveman is going to help this marriage?

 

I get it. Lots of men on LS have been betrayed. But just because you're a hammer doesn't mean everything is a nail.

Edited October 4, 2015 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
Redact full quote of immediately preceding post

[xxoo]

We're talking about consequences because she disrespects him and was all over other men. It doesn't matter that it was only one night.

 

Would you be so understanding if your husband doesn't enjoy sex with you, got drunk on his birthday, and was grinding up against other women?

 

If my husband had pain with sex, I'd be primarily empathetic and concerned for him. I would seek intimacy in ways that don't cause him pain, and encourage him to get the help that he needs to enjoy sex again--for him as well as for me. That's how he handled it when sex hurt me after babies, so I'd just follow his example.

 

She's been disrespected as well. The consequences are the current state of the marriage.

 

The grinding would be a whole different story if the OP were getting sexed up, as well. He might even encourage it. So it's really not about "good" and "bad", but rather about the relationship.

[oldshirt]

Let me address the "pain" issue so you have a more informed perspective of it and not jump to conclusions about my behavior.

 

There have been a good number of times we have been having sex and she will have a grimace on her face. I will stop and ask if she is ok. She will invariably answer "yes."

 

If I ask if she wants me to stop, she will say to keep going but just "hurry up."

 

If I ask if she's having pain, she will say, "it's fine." (And we all know what "fine" means.

 

If I stop, she gets mad like she did last week.

 

When I say she needs to communicate about having discomfort so we can either find something that doesn't hurt or address the discomfort, she gets defensive and angry feeling that I am criticizing her no matter how soft and sensitive I try to be.

 

So it's not like I am raping her and pressuring her to screw me through the pain. I try to be as accommodating and sensitive as possible, but she needs to bear some responsibility for her comfort as well and it usually isn't untill we are into the act and see the grimaced that I even know anything is wrong.

 

And it's not every time we have sex but it's getting to be more often than not.

 

So it's not like I am some ogre that is demanding she screw me dispute her discomfort. I am actually taking more initiative and responsibility to address her discomfort than she is.

[oldshirt]

If my husband had pain with sex, I'd be primarily empathetic and concerned for him. I would seek intimacy in ways that don't cause him pain, and encourage him to get the help that he needs to enjoy sex again--for him as well as for me. That's how he handled it when sex hurt me after babies, so I'd just follow his example.

 

She's been disrespected as well. The consequences are the current state of the marriage.

 

The grinding would be a whole different story if the OP were getting sexed up, as well. He might even encourage it. So it's really not about "good" and "bad", but rather about the relationship.

 

Read my post above about the pain issue and please tell me how I have disrespected her in any way.

 

And as far as getting "sex up" the other night, I can only speak for myself but I do NOT get sexed up by getting the cold shoulder and brush off from my wife while she dirty dances and plays sex games with other men!

 

I was as bout as far from being sexed up as you can get. I was the one that pulled her away from it when enough was enough. I did NOT encourage it.

[oldshirt]

Ok so here is an honest question.

 

Those of you saying she needs to have consequences, what in your opinion(s) is a fair, measured consequence that is reasonable and commensurate with her dancing with another man in full view of and with full knowledge of both spouses?

 

Remember they didn't sneak off. They didn't grab a quick grind when no-one was looking. They went out on the dance floor in full view of both other spouses and returned after a song or two.

 

And what is a measured and commensurate consequence for sitting around a neighbors driveway playing truth or dare and talking smack when her husband was sitting right beside her the entire time.

 

Again no-one sneaked off and said or did anything. The whole thing played out under full view and knowledge of her husband.

 

And what is a measured and commensurate consequence for not having sex with me on her bday. What is the current sentence for that?

 

I can't and won't, do any consequences for what 'might' have happened if I wasn't there. I will only consider actions for what I know did happen.

 

I may be willing to discuss my hurt feelings and disappointment about my gut feelings but I can't impose any sanctions or consequences on something that didn't actually happen.

 

So what consequences are available for what did occur?

[xxoo]

Let me address the "pain" issue so you have a more informed perspective of it and not jump to conclusions about my behavior.

 

There have been a good number of times we have been having sex and she will have a grimace on her face. I will stop and ask if she is ok. She will invariably answer "yes."

 

If I ask if she wants me to stop, she will say to keep going but just "hurry up."

 

If I ask if she's having pain, she will say, "it's fine." (And we all know what "fine" means.

 

If I stop, she gets mad like she did last week.

 

When I say she needs to communicate about having discomfort so we can either find something that doesn't hurt or address the discomfort, she gets defensive and angry feeling that I am criticizing her no matter how soft and sensitive I try to be.

 

So it's not like I am raping her and pressuring her to screw me through the pain. I try to be as accommodating and sensitive as possible, but she needs to bear some responsibility for her comfort as well and it usually isn't untill we are into the act and see the grimaced that I even know anything is wrong.

 

And it's not every time we have sex but it's getting to be more often than not.

 

So it's not like I am some ogre that is demanding she screw me dispute her discomfort. I am actually taking more initiative and responsibility to address her discomfort than she is.

 

I've been a woman in pain during intercourse. I've done the "it's fine" because I'm worried about leaving him frustrated. Letting him down. Being a bad wife.

 

He was the one to tell me, in no uncertain terms, that he didn't want to have sex that hurt me, or that I didn't enjoy. He insisted on abstaining from that. And I shouldn't worry about him. That I should focus on enjoying a cuddle and taking care of myself.

 

That was a HUGE relief to me, and heartwarming, and made me love him even more. That's the approach that worked for us, so it's what I recommend.

 

If you know she's uncomfortable, why even pursue it? I know, you want sex. I know sex is bonding. I know. But where is the concern for what it's doing to her sexual feelings for you? The long term damage it may be doing to your sex life? That break from sex, so that she can get healed after a birth, or adjust to menopausal symptoms, is an investment in a life long sexual relationship.

[oldshirt]

I've

 

If you know she's uncomfortable, why even pursue it? I know, you want sex. I know sex is bonding. I know. But where is the concern for what it's doing to her sexual feelings for you? The long term damage it may be doing to your sex life? That break from sex, so that she can get healed after a birth, or adjust to menopausal symptoms, is an investment in a life long sexual relationship.

 

I don't keep pursuing it once I know she's hurting. That's my point.

 

I do try to explore remedies and alternative techniques and accommodations. But I need her to work with me and meet me part way.

[xxoo]

I don't keep pursuing it once I know she's hurting. That's my point.

 

I do try to explore remedies and alternative techniques and accommodations. But I need her to work with me and meet me part way.

 

But what I'm hearing on this thread loud and clear is "I'm not living as roommates".

 

There is the weird assumption that women are looking for ways to get out of sex. Women who are healthy WANT sex. The goal should be to get your wife healthy so that she wants sex. The primary reaction should be concern--for your wife, not concern about sex disappearing forever.

 

How much of this is repeating a pattern from when the kids were born and her body didn't want sex for a while? How much of her saying "I'm fine" is because she remembers how you reacted then?

[why1234]

Hi Oldshirt. I was in the exact situation you were in. I spent about a year looking for the solution. Your mileage may vary, but here is what worked and didn't work for me.

 

What didn't help:

 

Communication - wife wanted to talk more, share more. She wanted me to open up. I opened up more than I had ever before. Didn't work at all. Sure it improved our relationship but did nothing to make her more interested in sex.

 

Being more considerate and doing more - I thought I could fix things by being nicer. Buying her presents. Taking her on romantic trips to Europe. Didn't work at all.

 

Backing off - Not bringing sex up. Giving her a sex holiday. Didn't work at all.

 

Basically, I tried everything people are suggesting here.

 

What helped:

 

The Red Pill. This is hard work, and it took about six months to get to the tipping point but once it kicked in, it transformed our marriage. We went from 2-3 times a year duty sex to great sex 3-4 times a week.

 

Per TRP, you can't talk your wife into desiring you. You have to put yourself into the physical and mental condition so that your wife will desire you - just because you're married doesn't mean she will desire you.

 

To implement TRP, what you need to do is get yourself into the best shape possible. Physically it means lifting weights, eating right, shedding fat. Mentally, it means you have to wean yourself from being a clingy wimp when it comes to your wife. Clingy wimp = letting your wife make all the decisions, letting your wife nag, doing far more for your wife than she does for you, etc. etc. If she doesn't want to have sex, you can't make her want to have sex. All you can do is improve yourself and become the kind of man that women (that includes your wife) would want to have sex with.

 

What kind of men do women want to have sex with? Basically, women like strong men, men who don't get pushed around, and most of all don't get pushed around by their wives. Men who look and act masculine (I don't mean macho, I mean confident). Men who don't give a s*** what the people around them think about them because they have inner peace.

 

What kind of men do women not want to have sex with? Men who whine. "Yes dear" men who dutifully do everything their wives want to do. Men who are fat, out of shape, and let themselves go (which it sounds like you're not). Men who think bringing home a paycheck, providing for the family, and being a good father, entitles them to sex even if they're unattractive or wimps. Men who get angry or butthurt just because they don't get sex. Most of all, men who beg for sex.

 

It also says that you can control only what you can control, namely yourself, and that you have to own your problems. Wife doesn't want to have sex? That's your problem, and you have to fix it, not her.

 

TRP is on reddit. I recommend the marriedredpill. It's very controversial, to give you fair warning. You may not like it, and many women think it's politically incorrect.

 

At first, I thought TRP was kind of crazy, but I had nothing to lose. And after I read Women's Infidelity, I knew that my wife may eventually have an affair with someone so I took the plunge.

 

All I can say is that I tried everything, and TRP is the only thing that worked for me. Your mileage may vary.

[why1234]

Just to add:

 

1) Very few women lose their libido. Women's Infidelity (you should read this, it will tell you that your wife is in Stage 1 of a slippery slope) and most high quality sources will tell you women love sex as much as men do. When the right person comes along, she will want to have sex with him. Passionate sex.

 

2) Don't blame your wife for the situation, because she can't make herself desire you (only you can do that). Let me ask you: are you attractive? Let me rephrase that: are you getting hit on all the time by women who are as attractive as your wife or more attractive than her? If yes, you should make sure she knows it. If no, then it's not surprising that your wife isn't attracted to you.

 

3) Are you the leader or the follower in your household? Do you make most of the important decision? Are you the strong one emotionally in the relationship? Do you have to get her permission if you want to buy a new car? New drill?

 

4) Do you put your wife on a pedestal? Does she know that? Women don't want to have sex with men they have to look down on. If you put her on a pedestal, she has no choice but to look down on you.

 

5) Yes there has to be consequences, but if you are saying you are going to punish her, then consider this: you can only punish her if she lets herself be punished. She's not going to let you punish her if she doesn't respect you. She's not going to respect you unless you're worthy of respect. So, what can you change about YOURSELF that will make you worthy of respect?

Edited October 2, 2015 by why1234

[autumnnight]

But what I'm hearing on this thread loud and clear is "I'm not living as roommates".

 

There is the weird assumption that women are looking for ways to get out of sex. Women who are healthy WANT sex. The goal should be to get your wife healthy so that she wants sex. The primary reaction should be concern--for your wife, not concern about sex disappearing forever.

 

How much of this is repeating a pattern from when the kids were born and her body didn't want sex for a while? How much of her saying "I'm fine" is because she remembers how you reacted then?

 

xxoo, you are one of the good ones. But I have to say, after reading lots of forums and knowing lots of women....it is sadly amazing how many women DO want to get out of sex. You'd be amazed at how they defend their refusal and band together to crucify men who want it. I even know of one woman who is proud of the fact that she withholds from her hubby for weeks at a time if they have an unpleasant conversation.

 

I don't think OS's wife is doing this, but I do think she is avoiding facing and solving the issue due to embarrassment, fear, whatever.

 

I do agree that chest beating and putting her in her place won't work, and oldshirt is wise not to get caught up in that crap.

[autumnnight]

Why aren't you considering marriage counseling?

 

I know he said they have been a couple of times.

 

I was married to someone who avoided discomfort and tended to be defensive. Marriage counseling with such a person can be......exhausting. They tend to remember what they want to remember and resist the rest. Not saying Mrs. Old is this way....but my ex and I broached the sex topic. Once the counselor mentioned that the man having the lower drive wasn't as uncommon as people think, that was all he needed to hear. Every time we talked after that he said, "The counselor said it wasn't uncommon. I'm not abnormal" as if that was the point.

 

Depending on how things went the other times, he may just not have the strength for it.

 

I do, however, think with the right counselor (probably male), it would be worth trying.

[oldshirt]

But what I'm hearing on this thread loud and clear is "I'm not living as roommates".

 

There is the weird assumption that women are looking for ways to get out of sex. Women who are healthy WANT sex. The goal should be to get your wife healthy so that she wants sex. The primary reaction should be concern--for your wife, not concern about sex disappearing forever.

 

How much of this is repeating a pattern from when the kids were born and her body didn't want sex for a while? How much of her saying "I'm fine" is because she remembers how you reacted then?

 

I get what you are saying and there is probably some truth to it.

 

I'm sure my posts here on an anonymous forum probably do come off as me sounding a bit like an ass or a whiner.

 

The truth is, after the kids were born I really didn't whine or pressure her or anything. I have no doubt she knew I wasn't thrilled but I did my best not to bitch or threaten or whine.

 

Where things blew up wasn't the birth of the kids, where things blew up was several years ago when she had PMDD so bad she was unbearable to live with and had to have surgery and put on meds to keep from killing all of us and then a few years ago when we were having serious relationship issues and ended up in another counselors office.

 

Yes she knows living as roommates is not an option. I can't help that she knows that. She knows the kind of man I am and I had to be upfront and honest with both her and the counselor that we either have a full service marriage or we have a cooperative coparenting relationship from two different households.

 

Maybe she would feel more safe and secure if she thought I would be by her side no matter what. But that is not the reality and I am not going to live a lie.

 

The reality is love and marriage are conditional.

 

There are things I have to do as well as things I cannot do if I want to stay married to her and have her love me. If I don't do those things, she walks. People seem OK when it's women that have conditions and stipulations.

 

But I have conditions and stipulations too and one of those is a marital sexlife. If she wants to be done with sex and live a life of celibacy, that's her choice and I won't begrudge her that. I just won't follow her down that path.

 

If she falls in love with and wants to be with someone else, that too will break my heart and I'll be sad, but again I won't try to keep her with me if her heart is somewhere else.

 

I talk tough here in the forums but I actually am a very reasonable and negotiable person. I do seek middle ground and solutions through diplomacy and working through problems. But at the end of the day, there is the bottom line and the bottom line is I can't do roommates.

[oldshirt]

Just to add:

 

1) Very few women lose their libido. Women's Infidelity (you should read this, it will tell you that your wife is in Stage 1 of a slippery slope) and most high quality sources will tell you women love sex as much as men do. When the right person comes along, she will want to have sex with him. Passionate sex.

 

2) Don't blame your wife for the situation, because she can't make herself desire you (only you can do that). Let me ask you: are you attractive? Let me rephrase that: are you getting hit on all the time by women who are as attractive as your wife or more attractive than her? If yes, you should make sure she knows it. If no, then it's not surprising that your wife isn't attracted to you.

 

3) Are you the leader or the follower in your household? Do you make most of the important decision? Are you the strong one emotionally in the relationship? Do you have to get her permission if you want to buy a new car? New drill?

 

4) Do you put your wife on a pedestal? Does she know that? Women don't want to have sex with men they have to look down on. If you put her on a pedestal, she has no choice but to look down on you.

 

5) Yes there has to be consequences, but if you are saying you are going to punish her, then consider this: you can only punish her if she lets herself be punished. She's not going to let you punish her if she doesn't respect you. She's not going to respect you unless you're worthy of respect. So, what can you change about YOURSELF that will make you worthy of respect?

 

Excellent posts Why.

 

The irony here is I have advised many men here on LS by saying exactly what you have said.

 

I signed on here at LS after getting through our last round of counseling a few years ago. Prior to that I had been on Married Man Sex Life and have read a number of books and articles by Athol Kay so I am familiar with red pill teachings.

 

I needed that red pill to get through the issues we were having at that time and thought I had come out the other side and survived. Then this past weekend pulled the rug out from under me and I trigger big time.

 

Why Athol Kay and his gang were so helpful is as opposed to the vast majority of the "alpha male" chest thumpers is MMSL also recognizes the importance of "good beta."

 

It was the beta that I needed to work on and it was turning up the beta while still maiming my core values and boundaries is what got us through it. If I had kept pounding my chest which is what most red pill proponents advise you to do, she would've been long gone and I would be the *******.

 

This is ultimately going to play out somewhat similar.

 

I am still devising a plan and that plan will include maintaining my core values and boundaries, but I know I am going to have to give a little too.

 

Where you are correct is she has to WANT to be with me. But Muscles and leadership can only go so far. Those work in the short term picking up chicks in bars. But for a 20 year marriage, she also has to like me and see a benifit of staying with me vs all the other guys out there that also have muscles and a strong personality.

 

Many of the alpha traits and behaviors come naturally to me (and some don't), the supportive and nurturing beta stuff, I have to work at.

[Marc878]

Uh I hate to tell you this but it doesn't seem to me that she has much respect for you.

 

You're probably to Mr. Nice plus you are afraid of her.

 

She no doubt senses your weakness and it has become very unattractive.

 

Better start turning that around.

 

Like NOW!!!!!!

[xxoo]

 

The reality is love and marriage are conditional.

 

There are things I have to do as well as things I cannot do if I want to stay married to her and have her love me. If I don't do those things, she walks. People seem OK when it's women that have conditions and stipulations.

 

But I have conditions and stipulations too and one of those is a marital sexlife. If she wants to be done with sex and live a life of celibacy, that's her choice and I won't begrudge her that. I just won't follow her down that path.

 

I don't see you considering the possibility (and in my experience as a woman: the reality) that a lapse in sex due to huge life change does not mean she wants a life of celibacy.

 

Can you love her through a life change that affects her sexuality for a season? What if she were sick with cancer? Does it matter if it's chemo or PMDD or menopause that's affecting her hormones if the impact to her sexuality is the same? Do you care about her experience and her struggle?

 

It really seems that is all about you for you, and maybe all about her for her at this point (although she was definitely putting your needs first for a long time). The solution is more thought and care for the other.

[ShatteredLady]

To be completely honest this thread terrifies me! I have cancer & I'm about to go through surgeries including hysterectomy. Is this my future? At the time in my life that I desperately need safety, security, love & understanding all I'm thinking is 'Is this the end then?'. On a really bad night, panic attacks, shaking with fear, thoughts of leaving my young children motherless I created a regrettable panic post here.

How does a woman get through this kind of nightmare without loosing everything? I completely understand the need for a passionate sex life. Should we just get divorced now? Why have "In sickness & health" in marriage vows when it can severely effect the "To have & to hold"?

Serious medical conditions are so overwhelming. Is it unreasonable to expect any person, regardless of history & promises, to be burdened with something I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy?

 

How many marriages end in misery & divorce when menopause hits? Half of the human race goes through this. I need to learn more about how some marriages stay strong & secure....I dread ending on the trash heap. Loosing my ability to have more children, loosing my hair, loosing, loosing, loosing....looser

[why1234]

You're a well-informed man Oldshirt. I must say that I've read your post on other threads and I've been impressed.

 

Are you applying dread?

 

Do you have options? If your marriage collapsed, do you have outcome independence such that you could shrug and go on, albeit with pain?

 

Do you need your wife less than she needs you?

 

Let me rephrase. You need your wife less than she needs you. Do you accept that? At your age, and given your description of yourself and your wife, you know that you will likely upgrade and she will downgrade if you divorce.

 

If your know red pill, you know that you have to be willing to give her up if you want to keep her. Only if she realizes you would rather let her go than put up with her disrespect will she respect you. You surely know that.

[oldshirt]

To be completely honest this thread terrifies me! I have cancer & I'm about to go through surgeries including hysterectomy. Is this my future? At the time in my life that I desperately need safety, security, love & understanding all I'm thinking is 'Is this the end then?'. On a really bad night, panic attacks, shaking with fear, thoughts of leaving my young children motherless I created a regrettable panic post here.

How does a woman get through this kind of nightmare without loosing everything? I completely understand the need for a passionate sex life. Should we just get divorced now? Why have "In sickness & health" in marriage vows when it can severely effect the "To have & to hold"?

Serious medical conditions are so overwhelming. Is it unreasonable to expect any person, regardless of history & promises, to be burdened with something I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy?

 

How many marriages end in misery & divorce when menopause hits? Half of the human race goes through this. I need to learn more about how some marriages stay strong & secure....I dread ending on the trash heap. Loosing my ability to have more children, loosing my hair, loosing, loosing, loosing....looser

 

 

 

Shattered Lady don't let my issues shake your faith in your husband, your marriage, your family or of men in general.

 

 

If your man knows that you love him, respect him, admire him and desire him, he will walk through hellfire, crawl through broken glass and twisted steel and will stand beside you through thick and thin.

 

 

It's when he has serious and legitimate doubt about those things that he will question whether he is barking up the wrong tree or not.

 

 

My issues are not whether my wife's vagina works or not. My issues are whether she loves, respects and desires me or not. If she doesn't, then I question whether there is any reason for me to be with her or not even if she is in perfect health and vitality and even if there is money in the bank and the happy, smiling kids are bringing home straight-A report cards.

 

 

If I were secure in her love/respect/desire for me, then no disease, no hardship and no tragedy or poverty would shake my devotion to her.

 

 

If I knew she loved, respected and desired me, then her jay-jay could fall clear off and it wouldn't shake my commitment to her. we'd work around it and keep on truck'n.

 

 

In my case she has looked me in the eye and told me if she knew how I'd be, she never would have married me. She has given me the ILYBNILWY. She has told me that she might as well be on her own for what little I have done for her.

 

 

Now all of those things were said in anger a few years ago when we were having relationship issues that landed us in the MC's office and she has since recanted and things have been a lot better, but you can see why my faith in her has been shaken.

 

 

So when some "life change" comes along, you can see why I may be a bit hesitant to assume that it is simply a shift in hormonal balance and I simply need to be more supportive and understanding.

 

 

We have come along ways since those dark days, but that doesn't mean that the "all-clear" siren has sounded or that I haven't wondered when the next shoe will fall.