I need some help here

[jmargel]

WWIV,

 

Personally she doesn't have total control over this. If she wants to stay changes need to be made by *both* of us. If she wants to stay and keep things the same then I'm gone. I want both of us to have control over this. I don't want it to be a tug-o-war match, I want it to be compromises and giving to the other what each of us needs.

[Moose]

Originally posted by jmargel

Moose, I told her last night that I want her out quickly. This was a shock to her, let her absorb what I said and then make a decision. If I demand an answer now by asking or pushing her out the door, she could easily tell me she will stay but then leave. I want her to actually *think* about this rather than giving me an answer based on fear or emotion.

No duh.......it's too late now.....you have to sit it out at least for the couple of days you graciously gave her. And again.....your'e not pushing her out the door......your just telling her, "Fine.....if you feel that way, leave.....go give it a try.......but don't expect open arms when you come back".......you're teaching her that she doesn't know it all.........and WWIU is absolutley correct......although you want to deny it, your wife is in control of all of this.......

[jmargel]

Moose I am going to ask her tonight and I did not tell her I was giving her a couple of days. And what you quoted is the truth. If she wants to go, fine then go. I will not be welcoming her back. If she wants to stay then like I said before we both work on this.

 

Every situation is different what might have worked for you doesn't mean it would work for me. Just like half the people here think marriage makes two people become one, while the other half doesn't think so.

[Moose]

Originally posted by jmargel

Moose I am going to ask her tonight and I did not tell her I was giving her a couple of days. And what you quoted is the truth. If she wants to go, fine then go. I will not be welcoming her back. If she wants to stay then like I said before we both work on this.

 

Every situation is different what might have worked for you doesn't mean it would work for me. Just like half the people here think marriage makes two people become one, while the other half doesn't think so.

You're absolutley right. I don't mean to sound like I know it all.....I don't. But your wife's type is so classic! This is a person that needs to wake up and smell the java........I just happen to know what turns people like her around. Ultimatums and compromise doesn't work. I hope you're right......I really do.

[Debster]

My god, you are acting like such a doormat.

Not to be mean here, but if I was your wife, I would have lost all respect for you.

Who wants to be with someone they can walk all over?

And yes, I know you think that this will be a joint decision, but I for one don't buy a cent of it.

She has you by the gonads.

[jmargel]

Debster if you really have to talk that way to me, please don't post here. The only way she is going to *wake* up about this is to really think things through. Not me pushing her out the door and her pleading No. Above all of this you have to remember I LOVE her and I do want things to work out. My intentions are not getting rid of her. They are to stand my ground on what I need and what she needs.

 

Trust me, I know her pretty good. If I do that sort of thing she will go running off without getting a chance to realize what she's done. This is the time for her to decide. Like I said she needed to absorb some things last night and I will be asking her today.

[MWC_LifeBeginsAt40]

Originally posted by jmargel

WWIV,

Personally she doesn't have total control over this. If she wants to stay changes need to be made by *both* of us. If she wants to stay and keep things the same then I'm gone. I want both of us to have control over this. I don't want it to be a tug-o-war match, I want it to be compromises and giving to the other what each of us needs.

 

This is what you've been asking/telling Brandy all along. Is she listening? No. What now?

 

Is it going to be enough for you to hear only words from her tomorrow? How much time are you going to give her to act out the requests? Is she to drop her pool playing cold turkey and let down her team? If it has to do only with playing pool, could a compromise be made for her to find a league elsewhere? She can find some other way to spend time with her dad.

 

Can you insist that you accompany her to her dad's place since she won't leave when her ex is there? Would she think that is too smothering? I'm sorry but that's not the way you want this marriage, and if she sees it as smothering you two will not be able to work this one out. Where would YOU be willing to compromise on this one?

 

Is she willing to stand up to her father and ask him to get along with you? I think she needs to do this and really TRY to let you be a part of her family, but you also need to try and make nice with her father even if you feel like decking him.

 

Counselling? You won't make her go, you can't make her go, but if she is not willing to go, then she needs to offer an alternative compromise. What will that be?

 

You are giving her too much time to think, and I know from my own experience she probably has way too many thoughts circling around in her head. IMO the two of you need to sit down with a sheet of paper and write down everything you are both and each willing to do to make your marriage work.

 

Stay up all night if you have to. Get it done. Set some goals. Make arrangements to review how each week is going. If it sounds like you're running the marriage like a business, it's because that's exactly what it is going to have to be until you both are comfortable that things are consistently moving in the right direction. Sure there will be setbacks, and bumps, and how you deal with them as a couple will determine the strength of the marriage.

[Moose]

Above all of this you have to remember I LOVE her and I do want things to work out.

ALL the more reason to do what I said. YOU'RE NOT PUSHING HER OUT THE DOOR. And when I said to let her know your arms won't be welcoming her back......I meant, that's the impression you need to give her. You don't actually mean it.....you just want her to think it.

 

YOU'RE NOT PUSHING HER OUT THE DOOR.

 

YOU'RE NOT PUSHING HER OUT THE DOOR.

 

YOU'RE NOT PUSHING HER OUT THE DOOR.

 

YOU'RE NOT PUSHING HER OUT THE DOOR.

 

YOU'RE NOT PUSHING HER OUT THE DOOR.

 

Did I say it enuff now?????

[jmargel]

Well Moose.. what am I suppose to do now this very minute? Call her up at work and tell her she's leaving?

 

As for my requests, she needs to start doing them right away. She doesn't have to quit the pool team, however staying out after the matches where her ex is there I will not accept. Nor will I accept any interaction outside the matches, either at her dad's place or wherever. When this season ends, she is not to be on the same team as her ex. Personally I would like to join her next season myself as something to do with her. That any discussions between me & her or our marriage do not get discussed to her dad (she has been telling me she's stopped this already when I asked). That more quality times gets spent with each other, to start enjoying life and each other. I need her to be honest, no lies, no secrets, etc.. As for her father I would appreciate if she would mention to him about how our riff is upsetting her and she would like us to get along once again.

 

That she shows that she wants to be with me and puts our marriage #1 priority in her life and she needs to show the respect I deserve.

 

If she can't follow any of these then I can't continue. Whatever she needs from me I will listen and do the same for her.

[New_Wife]

Originally posted by jmargel

Debster if you really have to talk that way to me, please don't post here. The only way she is going to *wake* up about this is to really think things through. Not me pushing her out the door and her pleading No. Above all of this you have to remember I LOVE her and I do want things to work out. My intentions are not getting rid of her. They are to stand my ground on what I need and what she needs.

 

Trust me, I know her pretty good. If I do that sort of thing she will go running off without getting a chance to realize what she's done. This is the time for her to decide. Like I said she needed to absorb some things last night and I will be asking her today.

 

 

JMargel, Debster is posting to you why? Do you think she's trying to tick you off? I don't. I think she's trying to show you something you simply refuse to see. You love your wife. we get that. 26 pages later - we know. But I've gotta say, if you hadn't identified anyone's names - I would've thought you were the girl. You write her letters, give her days, tattle on her to her mommy, send her emails, blah blah blah. Do you ever wonder why all of these women empathize with you so much? It's because you act just like a woman. I know the 90's were all about self-help books and finding your feminine side, but you ARE the feminine side of your marraige. And we're not in the 90's anymore. I know it's sexist, but men should never beg. never. The only even remote begging that should happen should involve pants around ankles and a very naughty wife - but that's not the situ here by a long stretch. I know a bunch of ladies are gonna get their hackles up over this because they think they want their own husands to be more sensitive, but truly, a begging, letter writing, whining man is the biggest turn off I can imagine. Do you have any male friends? Have you run this by any of them???

 

Now, I could be all nice here and pat you on the head and tell you how awful that bad bad wife of yours is - but tell me this - how's that been working for you so far? Seen a lot of positive changes have you?

 

Let's be honest here. You CANNOT change another person. If someone told you that you could - they lied. You can only change yourself and your way of dealing with someone. If they change as a result, cool. If not, you stay or go but deal with the fact that YOU are making that choice. YOU and YOU ALONE are choosing to either be miserable or not. If you don't like the way you feel - figure out what you can change about yourself and your life and do it.

 

Now, you take issue with Debster & my delivery - that's cool. But tell me - what are you really getting from the "oooh pooor jefffy" that's been going on? Is it some sort of ego stroke? Do you need a committee vote to convince your wife of her wrongness? Do you feel more justified in having your own opinion? Because honestly, I think someone needs to pull you aside and have a man to man about the way you're acting. Enough Wahhhh already. Do something or don't. But admit it. You want change? Then change.

 

I still wish you good luck, but I'm not gonna feed your little pity party anymore. It constipates me.

[MWC_LifeBeginsAt40]

good luck and have the talk tonight no matter how tired she is.

 

As for new-wife's comments, there is nothing wrong with showing your feminine side. My ex was very "girly" in our marriage but he was a man too, a very good man and a very good father (and Mr Mom). He showed his sensitive side, and I am the least senstiive person I know.

 

I screwed up with all my lies and cheating and not doing anything for the marriage, just doing everything for myself. He didn't try as hard as you have been trying, and for us it went on for several years.

 

He was my doormat. He finally realized it, but we gave our marriage another chance, which was last summer. We didn't draw up our requirements, or our needs, which was a mistake. We printed off the Emotional Needs questionaire from marriagebuilders - it sat on the dresser for six months! So it was painfully obvious by the end of summer that neither of us had our hearts in it.

 

I believe he loved me, as you love Brandy, but he had already done his "trying". Even though we said we'd both try, I think it was his way of seeing if I was really into this marriage.

 

There comes a time when you realize enough is enough. I don't think you are there yet. I think your marriage still has a good chance but it won't be easy.

[whichwayisup]

Uhmm, he came here for advice, not to be roasted. I don't get right now why NEW WIFE you're even posting then. Can you actually give advice freely and NOT hurt somebody's feelings or piss them off?? Just irks me that you can't see the pain this man is in and he's just asking for everybody's thoughts. No reason to personally attack him. If you don't like what he's saying or how he is handling HIS LIFE then don't read and post on his thread.

[billybadass36]

I may have missed this early on, but is there a reason why you can't take her dad and/or this ex of hers out for dinner or a beer and sit down and just talk like adults? I know her dad got violent with you after you smarted off a little a while back, but is there any way you can let that go and try to start over...ya know...take the moral high ground a little, try to sort this out with the boys? Bury the hatchet so to speak? I mean, you think her dad is in cahoots with her ex to try to interfere with your marriage, but you're not giving them much incentive NOT to. If you showed these guys that you're a decent guy who B won't just up and leave, and that, hey, you're a decent guy to have a beer with, too.

 

I just don't know why you perceive that everyone's out to get you and out to ruin your marriage. I wonder what her dad's perspective on this thing is...even though he's an abuser or whatever. There's got to be a reason for her wanting to be at the pool hall after the match is over. There's got to be a reason for her to want to go "practice" at his house all the time.

[Moose]

Well Moose.. what am I suppose to do now this very minute? Call her up at work and tell her she's leaving?

Too late for that now. You're on the right track here:

As for my requests, she needs to start doing them right away. She doesn't have to quit the pool team, however staying out after the matches where her ex is there I will not accept. Nor will I accept any interaction outside the matches, either at her dad's place or wherever. When this season ends, she is not to be on the same team as her ex.

Perfect! This is what she needs to know right away. Any resistance and she needs to walk. Period. And when I say she needs to walk......I mean, the very second she says she won't comply. NO ACCEPTIONS< NO COMPROMISE.

Personally I would like to join her next season myself as something to do with her.

That would be cool!

That any discussions between me & her or our marriage do not get discussed to her dad (she has been telling me she's stopped this already when I asked).

This is a given.......even if you do get along with your in-laws and they feel like your second family......never, EVER talk about your marriage, or ask advice about your marriage from your in-laws......never a good idea!

I need her to be honest, no lies, no secrets, etc..

She needs to understand that this isn't a tall order. As a matter of fact, telling the truth is the easiest thing to do.

As for her father I would appreciate if she would mention to him about how our riff is upsetting her and she would like us to get along once again.

There was an explorer, I think it's the guy that discovered Mexico, that when he found it he gave his men an strange order........burn the ships. Why? He knew that if things got tough, and it looked as though they couldn't conquer the land, his crew would jump on the ships and run home. She needs to sever the tether. I don't know if I spelt that right......but getting alone with her Dad is half the battle. She needs to leave his nest so to speak.......

[blind_otter]

Women who have suffered abuse in their lives can become addicted to drama. What you need to do is determine for yourself what you want your life to be about. The drama your wife creates and propogates, the indecisiveness and her inability to find the strength to face her inner demons -- or the effort to create a healthier, happier you. Determine how much you are willing to take and set the boundaries. Never base your decision or boundaries on what others will think.

 

Consequences and threats MAY facilitate a change, but true change occurs when she decides it is of value to do so. It's entirely her choise and choosing. Stop blaming yourself for her inability to deal with her issues. I know from firsthand experience that it is terrifying and uncomfortable to make the effort to be healthy in a relationship. My point is this. She is not in denial. She is choosing what to value. Which is her insecurities and the sick way she believes behaving in a marraige should be.

 

The way to cure this problem is simply yet insidiously difficult. You are a caretaker. She is a taker, right now. She says you drive her crazy. She is putting the blame for her own dysfunction on YOU, and you are feeding that monster with your efforts to help her/fix her. Understanding the source of her dysfunction is one thing. Trying to fix it is another.

 

When each person learns to take full personal responsibility for his or her own feelings of pain and joy, they stop pulling on each other and blaming each other. When each person learns to fill themselves with love and share that love with each other, instead of always trying to get love, the relationship heals.

 

Learning how to take100% responsibility for your own feelings is one of the essential ingredients in creating a healthy relationship. This means learning to be conscious of what you are feeling and being open to learning about what you are doing to create your own feelings, instead of being a victim and believing that others are causing your feelings.

 

Until you are both able to do this, nothing will change.

 

I feel for you, JM. I wish you all the best.

[New_Wife]

Originally posted by whichwayisup

Uhmm, he came here for advice, not to be roasted. I don't get right now why NEW WIFE you're even posting then. Can you actually give advice freely and NOT hurt somebody's feelings or piss them off?? Just irks me that you can't see the pain this man is in and he's just asking for everybody's thoughts. No reason to personally attack him. If you don't like what he's saying or how he is handling HIS LIFE then don't read and post on his thread.

 

Yeah, he did come here for advice, and I gave mine. You don't like it - that's your right. I didn't roast him. You don't know me, so you can take my word or not, but I am very clear when I am roasting someone and this wasn't anything near such a thing.

 

As to giving advice without hurting or pissing off - I don't know what color the sky is on your planet, but on mine - the truth hurts. The truth may set you free, but damn if it won't piss you off first.

 

Look, what happens to doorman sensitive guys? The poster above MWC, cleary demonstrated it, didn't she? lies, cheating, etc. If a guy is gonna lay down on in front of a door with "Welcome" stamped on his forehead - he forfeits his right to whine about it when someone takes a step. I hold to my advice. You don't have to like it - but I offered it in truth and in hope that it might wake him up. Have you looked at why you are so bothered by it with anyone? Say a professional? Just a thought.

[MWC_LifeBeginsAt40]

Originally posted by blind_otter

Women who have suffered abuse in their lives can become addicted to drama. What you need to do is determine for yourself what you want your life to be about. The drama your wife creates and propogates, the indecisiveness and her inability to find the strength to face her inner demons -- or the effort to create a healthier, happier you. Determine how much you are willing to take and set the boundaries. Never base your decision or boundaries on what others will think.

 

Consequences and threats MAY facilitate a change, but true change occurs when she decides it is of value to do so. It's entirely her choise and choosing. Stop blaming yourself for her inability to deal with her issues. I know from firsthand experience that it is terrifying and uncomfortable to make the effort to be healthy in a relationship. My point is this. She is not in denial. She is choosing what to value. Which is her insecurities and the sick way she believes behaving in a marraige should be.

 

The way to cure this problem is simply yet insidiously difficult. You are a caretaker. She is a taker, right now. She says you drive her crazy. She is putting the blame for her own dysfunction on YOU, and you are feeding that monster with your efforts to help her/fix her. Understanding the source of her dysfunction is one thing. Trying to fix it is another.

 

When each person learns to take full personal responsibility for his or her own feelings of pain and joy, they stop pulling on each other and blaming each other. When each person learns to fill themselves with love and share that love with each other, instead of always trying to get love, the relationship heals.

 

Learning how to take100% responsibility for your own feelings is one of the essential ingredients in creating a healthy relationship. This means learning to be conscious of what you are feeling and being open to learning about what you are doing to create your own feelings, instead of being a victim and believing that others are causing your feelings.

 

Until you are both able to do this, nothing will change.

 

I feel for you, JM. I wish you all the best.

 

This popped into my head after reading the above:

 

Instead of telling each other what you will change to make the other happy, say to yourself "This is what I want to do to make myself happy. What do YOU want to do to make yourself happy Brandy?"

[moimeme]

The only way she is going to *wake* up about this is to really think things through. Not me pushing her out the door

 

Sorry, JM, but as long as you wait for her to 'think about it', you're still falling into the same bad cycle. None of this 'I want her to think about it' garbage anymore. She has had plenty of time to think about it. Tell her she quits the pool and starts spending more time with you or else goodbye. And then follow through. She can get into a bowling league, take up running, or do a million other things to make friends and exercise her competitive side but as long as she's going to those games, she'll be doing what she pleases and lying to you about it. She said she had already started looking for a place, for heaven's sakes!

 

Like I said before, IF she loved you, she would not have been doing any of those things to you. You want badly to believe she loves you but I don't think she does.

[jmargel]

Sorry but that draws the line. I will only keep this updated in PM with certain individuals. Stating that my own wife doesn't love me has gone over the line. This is now becoming more of an attack on her than anything else.

[ThumbingMyWay]

I have been reluctant to post on this thread. But I have read every single post.

 

I agree with both sides……in fact Blind Otter…hit on something that I have recently discovered and am working on in my situation. Although I agree that marriage should be a union of 2 people into 1. But the fact is…..no one can truly live this way and be happy. The only person that can make you happy is YOU.

 

Each person must take 100% responsibility for their feelings without projecting them onto their SO. Each person must be 100% happy as an individual before they can be 100% happy in a marriage. If one does not do this….they will for ever be co-dependent on their SO for happiness. To be come what is called “co-committed”, each person must be an individual first and be happy with who they are….then and only then can a couple achieve happiness as a union. Each of you must encourage each other as an individual. It is vital.

 

 

As for the ‘doormat’ lable. I think there is some truth to this. In fact there are several threads on this….and it is something I have been thinking about. Women don’t what a man that will not be storng for himself. But they also don’t want a bad boy jerk. They want a combination of the 2. How a man achieves the likeness of both is hard to do if you are one or the other.

 

Personally, I have been a doormat for my wife. And the result was her affair….I did not stand up for what I believed in…I just let her do what ever she wanted….and she ran with it…all the way to another man. She had the nice guy in me…the good husband, the good father, the sensitive one. What I wasn’t was a spontaneous, fun, bad boy….the guy who trips her trigger. I realize now, that women need both attributes from there man….at times they need a sensitive passionate man and at times they need a bad boy type bahavoir to keep them guessing and chasing after you.

 

So Jeff,

 

I see a lot of similarities in your situ with mine. You are a fixer, a giver. Brandy is a taker and a person who needs drama in her life. Its all you both know. I wish I had some advice for you….but I am in the same boat….albeit, wife and I are CHOOSING to fix things. My wife is trying and doing great. So the only advice I can give is that BRANDY is the one who has to figure out what it is she wants from this marriage. You cannot choose for her. You have your idea of what marriage is…and she has hers. But from you posts, it seems that Brandy is running….she is hiding from her true feelings. You both need to sit down and have a very sincere heart to heart talk about what you want. If you both cannot come to an agreement on things….and compromise on things, then you will never get past this drama….you both need to let go a little bit….and dig deep inside. I suggested a book for you on a dif thread….”conscious loving” by Hendrick. The book is very deep, but the more I read it…the more it will help my wife and I…it touched on what Blind Otter was getting at….”co-commited” relationship. I believe you and Brandy would benefit from its phylosiphy. I wish you the best Jeff….you have helped me in times of need…..and I hope I can do the same for you.

[moimeme]

Don't be ridiculous, JM. To say that a person who treats you terribly doesn't love you is not an 'attack'. If you didn't secretly fear it was true, it wouldn't bother you to see. You'd laugh it off if you KNEW she loved you. You have to quit hiding from the truth that's staring you in the face.

[whichwayisup]

Great advice Thumbs! As usual...You, my dear, are truely inspirational! Good to hear that things are going well with you ... You've been so quiet on the boards recently so I guess that's why.

 

Jeff, if you're not posting anymore, please send me a PM once in a while so I know how you're doing. I don't know if I've said anything in any of my posts that bugged ya, so if I did, I appologize. Just wanna see you happy and hey, I DO believe that she WILL come around and figure things out. Just may take some time to get there. I think once she realizes what her life will be without you - she'll have a change of hearts and do the right thing.

 

Hang in there.

[jmargel]

Thumbs I have that book. She wanted me to read it to her, we read the first two chapters. I'll ask her to read it with me. WWIV, I will keep you updated. What you said didn't bug me, it's when Moi states that she doesn't love me. She might not be showing me love when she has done those things but IMO that doesn't mean she doesn't love me.

 

In fact I think she has a great love for me and it's one of the things I treasure most in my life.

[whichwayisup]

I KNOW she loves you...I think though that all the feelings are confused and she's totally being taken in by her dad and the ex. It's there inside of her, she just isn't allowing herself to FEEL it and trust it. She's scared and probably won't admit that to anyone, let alone herself. She knows that things are a mess, but she is too scared to fix it...Takes alot of hard work - She DOES have it in her, but I think by her opening up actually means FEELING and maybe dealing with issues she doesn't want to face. As I said before, I do think that she'll come around.. Time is on your side...

[ThumbingMyWay]

Jeff...I think I got thru chapter 3 or maybe it was 4....and...it scared me....in fact I stopped reading it for a while....becasue of how much truth there was to it. I was in denial....and after reading the first few chapters...I knew i couldnt hide anymore.

 

I am almost thru it now...and ready to start the Part 2 activities to help me achieve its goal....which is co-commitment with my self and my wife.