Hoping to stop the downhill plunge.... Update.

[oldshirt]

This is an update to my thread from last week. Mods can merge if they see fit but I wanted to shift gears and move forward.

 

 

So thank you every for your input on my other thread. Everyone has added a piece of the puzzle and I've come up with a plan on what I am going to try to do.

 

 

Since I am obviously not going to discuss this with her, I am going to share it with you for a number of reasons. One is it is probably always going to be a work in progress and I'll still need some input and ideas. And mainly because I've slacked off in recent months and I'll need encouragement, someone to hold me accountable and probably an occasional kick in the pants.

 

 

I know some of the things on my list will generate some criticism and head shaking.

 

 

I'll split this up into a couple posts for an easier read.

[oldshirt]

I've come up with some general goals and after some thought, I've come up with some deal breakers as well.

 

 

My ultimate long term objective is to have full, happy and healthy life that includes love, intimacy and an at least tolerable sexlife.

 

 

I will give my wife first dibs and a major headstart since we have a 20+ year history and a home and family together, but my ultimate goal isn't to remain married in and of it'self per se. As I stated above, my ultimate goal is for me to have those things. If she doesn't want them with me, that's her prerogative, but I am not going to live without just because she wants to live without.

 

 

I do hope it can be with her and I sincerely believe we can. So my secondary shorter term goals revolve around us finding common ground and working things out for the common good of both of us.

 

 

DEAL BREAKERS:

 

 

The deal breakers will be -

 

 

- she comes out and declares that she no longer has any intimate/romantic/sexual feelings for me, but wants to remain on as roommates.

 

 

- She of course throws in the towel and wants out.

 

 

- I discover or she admits to involvement with someone else or she states she wants to move on and find someone else.

 

 

- She starts to treat me with the contempt and bitterness that she did a few years ago that landed us in counseling discussing the possibility of divorce. Back then we both opted to try to reconcile. If she starts doing that again, that will not be my choice this time.

[oldshirt]

So here is my plan for moving forward. As I stated above, I know some will disagree with some of it but some of this is based off of what I know to be issues and have demonstrated positive results during similar episodes. Past success is no guarantee of future success but it's a good place to start vs starting where there was known failure in the past.

 

 

Here is what I am planning to implement ASAP -

 

 

- Be a more involved husband and father in the home. I admit to getting a little lazy and a little too indulged in my little hobbies and past times. This includes time here on LS. I'll still check in, but it will be on my time, not family time. My indulgence in my pasttimes has always been her biggest complaint. I am going to try to take away as many complaints as possible.

 

 

- Start hitting the gym more regularly and more effectively. I have slacked off her too and have put on the weight to prove it. I'm still not fat, but the old jeans don't fit so well any more. As of tonight, I am 5'11" and 184.2Lbs and my belt hooks on the 5th notch from the end. I'll use that as my "before" measurements to track progress.

 

 

- I'm also going to update the wardrobe a bit and bump up the grooming and such. I bought a new box of Whitestrips today in fact in hopes of having the pearly whites a little whiter by the end of the month. I may do a little tanning too as I'm starting to glow in the dark. Nothing extreme just a little color so I don't look like a ghost.

 

 

- I'm going to bump up the snooping to see if there are any 3rd party involvements. I haven't seen any evidence of that yet, but I am going to take an honest look before I rule it out.

 

 

- I am going to work on being my happy, smiling self and work real hard on my outcome independence. No more whining or complaining or bargaining etc etc. I actually have not done any of this for the past year and a half or so but I am really going to commit to not doing it at all going forward.

 

 

- I am going to take sex out of the equation for now. In other words I am not going to hit on her, initiate or make any attempts to have sex with her. If she initiates or wants some lovins, I will love her up to the best of my ability. But if she doesn't initiate somehow, I won't either.

 

 

This may seem counter intuitive but it's actually for several reasons. one is I want to ensure that I am not pressuring her at all or making her feel that is all I want. Another is I want to show that I can relate to her in other ways. And also, I want to see how long before she notices or even wants any lovins. If it's 6 months down the road and she hasn't said a word or made one attempt, then I'll have my answer.

 

 

Actually at the end of the month is our 20th anniversary. If our anniversary comes and goes and doesn't say a word or lift a finger, that will be a pretty big flag.

 

 

 

 

-I am going to put a little more time and energy into a side gig I've recently started doing. It's not anything major but if I can get it up and running, it will pull in a few more dollars a month. It's mostly a hobby that I will be happy if it will pay for it's self. It will never be a true money maker.

 

 

- Get a little more educated about menopause and learn more about treatment options and ways to adapt and deal with it better in the bedroom.

 

 

- and finally, while I won't bitch or whine, I will hold her accountable if she does something disrespectful, bitchy or inappropriate. I won't bitch or whine, but if she does something that is clearly disrespectful or inappropriate or discourteous, I will address it.

 

 

 

 

So that's it, that is my plan for moving forward. I will be open for suggestions, feedback, criticisms and I'll definitely need some encourage and a kick in the pants now and then as I have been slacking lately and getting lazier in recent months. When I start slacking, I can refer back to this post and remind myself of what I need to be working on.

[OldRover]

Old Shirt,

 

Sounds like you just don't care where your marriage is going. If that's the case you'd probably be happier on your own.

 

Did the counseling do any good, and do you want to reconcile? If so, you can still work on it, and help her get thru menopause... which can be an ugly time of life.

[S2B]

As far as her menopausal issues - have you gone with her to the doctor and asked what treatments can be useful and what can be done to change things? I'd go with her.

 

She may not be as bad off as she says - so I'd get info straight from her doctor. Surely there are treatments that can be considered. Find out what they are.

 

But still, you've also explained she offers no intimacy - so even IF her libido is restored - she may not plan to offer you that close connection and a sense of touching you. You need her willingness to participate full blast in the relationship.

 

Since you won't consider counseling - it's hard to suggest getting help... But eliminating a professional is a shame.

 

IF your wife isn't willing to put in her share of effort to the marriage - there's little you can do to improve it.

 

I'll be interested to see what she does about the anniversary. Do let us know.

 

Do you plan to give her a gift?

[Grumpybutfun]

Man, this is tough. I was hoping you would try the couples therapy as it would have been more helpful. I agree that the only thing you can do is work on yourself and become the man you would admire, and she respects again. However, I also agree that there has to be an end if you do the work and she doesn't reciprocate your efforts. Honestly, we have exactly one life to live and I would rather live mine alone than with someone who is in constant battle with me or indifferent to me. My wife and I talk about this all the time and have made dealbreakers and lack of sex, infidelity and indifference are three of our big dealbreakers.

Also, just because I'm a health nut and fitness freak...do not base your health on your weight....it fluctuates with muscle growth. Go online and figure out how to measure your body and go by inches. Also, if you aren't lifting, start lifting. As we age our muscle is the first to go. I'm lifting more now than I ever have.

I don't think personal hobbies are a bad thing. My wife and I both enjoy ours and then come back to each other with new experiences to share....even the stuff on LS. However, if she feels they are bad, ask her specifically for what she wants you to do. What does she need from you? I ask my wife that once a week in humility and compassion...what do you need from me? I have gotten some interesting answers over the years. She tells me it makes her feel I am concerned about her life. Women are different than us...they need to feel we are connected emotionally to them and their stuff is different than our stuff. We need to feel needed and they need to feel desired and wanted....not just sexually but romantically. Also, I don't know what her doctors have been telling her or what she is reading but menopause has many treatments now that will stop loss of libido if that is something she wants to work on. All she has to do is ask her OBGYN.

Ok, I know you know all this...just putting it out there.

Keep us posted and I wish you the best no matter what happens with you and your wife,

Grumps

Edited October 7, 2015 by Grumpybutfun

[sandylee1]

I have to credit you for giving this such deep thought and coming up with a strategy.....it's highly commendable. Many men wouldn't think this through like you have.

 

I think it's a good plan that will get you where you want to be in the end.

 

I particularly like the being a more involved husband and father part.

 

Good luck.

[hudson701]

Good luck with the body transformation you should see a significant change in 6 months. Stick to it, add some muscle and rip up a bit and it will do wonders for your mental health and confidence. Be selfish, get happy and other women will begin to notice you. Your wife will then follow suit. This is the cornerstone of the red pill. Once you rep sect yourself you will have her back.

[oldshirt]

thanks for the encouragement and feedback everyone. Here are a few random bullet points in no particular order to address some of your questions and points as well as just a couple FYI points.

 

 

- I am not all that opposed to MC. She is the one that hated it and never wanted to go back. I will go and do it in good faith provided she is the one that offers it as an option and I feel that she is acting in good faith.

 

 

-I will offer whatever support and encouragement I can on the menopause issue but in order for me to bring it up I have to regain her trust that I am not doing it simply because I want more sex out of her. At the moment she thinks everything I do or say is to get poon.

 

 

- Weight training is a major part of work outs. I am just using weight and waistline as an easy to document benchmark. I have had a little set back out of the gates on the work outs as I came down with a nasty cold several days ago and been a sluggish, green snot monster. I'm trying to do what I can now but it's probably not accomplishing much at the moment.

 

 

- I actually do care where my marriage is going and I do want it to succeed. My original post started out very dark because I was hitting the wall with frustration and dissatisfaction and the whole birthday incident was a major trigger. Since I have gotten good words of advice and encouragement here and since I have compiled and enacted this plan, I actually feel a lot better and feel encouraged.

 

 

And here are a few extra FYI points:

 

 

- I have been really busy with work (I am on call at night) and I have had a nasty cold so I have been sleeping in guest room for the last week or so. She's been real busy with some other stuff and we literally have not laid a finger on each other or hugged or smooched or any physical contact whatsoever for a week or so.

 

 

But last night she kind of indicated she wanted me back in the bedroom in a roundabout way and she asked for a hug before I went off to the guest room for bed.

 

 

That's encouraging right?????

 

 

- Today the weather is nice where we are and we both have the day off and the kids are in school. I have planned for us to take the motorcycle out and go for a picnic in a nice state park that she has never been to before and then we'll hit a matinee to see a Rom Com that looks cute.

 

 

I know she is assuming I will try to score some tail before we leave or when we get back but I am going to be a perfect gentleman all day.

 

 

I'll report back on how the day goes.

[autumnnight]

I agree with every step on your plan except not initiating. The lower drive person who doesn't initiate tends to get used to the other person initiating, and they just....don't. It doesn't necessarily always mean they don't want to, just that they are used to NOT being the initiator. I would recommend maybe not initiating as much and keeping a record of rejections. I think it will give you a truer picture.

 

I'm not going to slam you for seeing sexual intimacy as important enough to be a dealbreaker because it is for me too. And that doesn't make either of us shallow. It makes us human.

[Got it]

Oldshirt, I have no editorial about your plan. You know the situation best and I defer to you. I just want to say kudos for being so proactive and energetic on a multi prong approach to do everything you can to improve things. Regardless of what happens, you are trying to turn over ever stone possible before calling it quits.

 

I hope your wife steps up but either way what I hope and predict most is your long term happiness because you are being true to yourself and being as an active a partner as possible. Kudos.

[Mr. Lucky]

- I am not all that opposed to MC. She is the one that hated it and never wanted to go back. I will go and do it in good faith provided she is the one that offers it as an option and I feel that she is acting in good faith.

 

To me, this approach fails the same standard autumnnight cited in your "no initiating" point - you're only hurting yourself and your marriage. Waiting for someone who's against MC to suggest it is a self-fulfilling prophecy.

 

You need to take point in this regard as it's hard to see the relationship have much hope without a structured approach to improvement. As a medical professional, don't think you'd let a stubborn infection go untreated and the marital equivalent is what you're proposing here...

 

Mr. Lucky

[OldRover]

To me, this approach fails the same standard autumnnight cited in your "no initiating" point - you're only hurting yourself and your marriage. Waiting for someone who's against MC to suggest it is a self-fulfilling prophecy.

 

You need to take point in this regard as it's hard to see the relationship have much hope without a structured approach to improvement. As a medical professional, don't think you'd let a stubborn infection go untreated and the marital equivalent is what you're proposing here...

 

Mr. Lucky

 

Oldshirt,

Lucky makes a good point, if there's not an effort made by someone (and preferably both), then it's pretty hard to save the marriage.

 

Personally, I hope you can save it and reunite with your wife for a happy and satisfying life, but you do have some challenges and need to change some attitudes, on both side. Best to you.

[S2B]

I don't see how being weak and not stating what you need from her is going to help.

 

 

Sit her down and say "this is not working for me!" "This is what I need from you to consider staying married"... Then cite your requirements. If she says yes, she intends to participate more - then make a list with a specific plan about how you get to those goals. The plan should include a doctors help in solving her medical issues, how she plans to connect with you more (intimacy) and her getting completely 'into' sex with you.

 

 

That's a short list.

 

 

If there's no honesty, no goal, no idea how to get to that goal - then time is just a wasting...

 

 

This takes action! Sitting and waiting is not useful. She may not ever change a thing. Speak up! Tell her exactly what you need. If she doesn't intend to make effort - then you have your answer. If she dies intend to change how she participates - then get a plan of action together so you can see what changes she's making.

 

 

Change can happen now. I don't see any value in 'waiting' six months to map out her inaction.

 

 

Get her on board - tell her what the plan is and how you two can reach a better marriage as a goal.

[perol]

Having read your backstory I applaud your self improvement goals but I question why you think your wife will care in the least, she's made it clear that she's just not interested in fixing anything.

[autumnnight]

I don't see how being weak and not stating what you need from her is going to help.

 

 

Sit her down and say "this is not working for me!" "This is what I need from you to consider staying married"... Then cite your requirements. If she says yes, she intends to participate more - then make a list with a specific plan about how you get to those goals. The plan should include a doctors help in solving her medical issues, how she plans to connect with you more (intimacy) and her getting completely 'into' sex with you.

 

 

That's a short list.

 

 

If there's no honesty, no goal, no idea how to get to that goal - then time is just a wasting...

 

 

This takes action! Sitting and waiting is not useful. She may not ever change a thing. Speak up! Tell her exactly what you need. If she doesn't intend to make effort - then you have your answer. If she dies intend to change how she participates - then get a plan of action together so you can see what changes she's making.

 

 

Change can happen now. I don't see any value in 'waiting' six months to map out her inaction.

 

 

Get her on board - tell her what the plan is and how you two can reach a better marriage as a goal.

 

Regardless of Reddit, the red pill, or 4chan say.....a strong arm ultimatum isn't always the way to go.

[BetrayedH]

Can't find a thread of yours from last week. Can you link me, or give me the short version? Don't like to hear about you struggling, brother.

[BikerAccnt]

Oldshirt,

 

 

I wish you the best of luck. But have others have stated, waiting for her to take the initiative may not work.

 

 

I waited for my ex to decide she wanted sex/counseling too. I waited 7 long sexless years before I left. Don't be me. Be more proactive in this regards. Let her know how very, very important this is to you.

 

 

I really hope this works out for you.

[S2B]

Regardless of Reddit, the red pill, or 4chan say.....a strong arm ultimatum isn't always the way to go.

 

I never said strong arm anyone.

 

I stated to express what his needs are...she can either make effort to participate - or not.

 

Either way, he will have his answer.

[oldshirt]

To me, this approach fails the same standard autumnnight cited in your "no initiating" point - you're only hurting yourself and your marriage. Waiting for someone who's against MC to suggest it is a self-fulfilling prophecy.

 

 

I'm not waiting for her to suggest MC.

 

 

I said if she brought it up and wanted to do MC, I would participate in good faith.

 

 

I'm just not going to initiate it if she shows no interest in doing it. I'm not going to try to twist her arm on something she doesn't want to do.

 

 

If she's perfectly happy to see walk out the door without doing anything about it, then I have my answer. I don't think it's going to come to that (at least I hope it doesn't) but if she's willing to let the marriage dissolve without seeking professional assistance, then I see no point in me trying to promote MC.

[dreamingoftigers]

Hold on.

 

I may be late to this party.

 

Why EXACTLY are we in crisis mode?

 

Serious question.

 

I am chiming inon this thread for a couple of reasons.

Oldshirt, you've been a longtime poster and support so I would like to help back if I can.

 

2. I watched my mother go through menopause (fun times!)

 

3. I have recently become pregnant and I am having a great wash of hormones.

 

Why these things might be relevant:

 

It seems as if you are about to 180 to try to "fix things" or abort.

 

Which, totally no offense here: seems very " all about you."

If X doesn't happen by Y, then I know she won't provide Z, and I'm outta there.

 

I can hear other male posters already suggesting that if you accept "low sex/no sex" for a period of time, it means you are a pansy whose woman has you by the balls or whatever.

 

I am not suggesting that you go low/no sex anyway.

 

However, it seems that many men (and women) lack a fundamental understanding of just how much fun menopause isn't.

 

During my recent pregnancy I have gone from generally happy and high-libido to feeling like SOMEONE IS POKING ME ALL DAY LONG.

 

That level of irritation. Like some jackarse is sitting beside me going poke poke poke........poke poke poke....ALL DAY LONG.

 

And it's entirely hormonal.

 

Symptoms: spurts of road rage

wondering if I am turning into my father

having empathy for my father

angrily remembering how mad I've been at my father (haven't felt this way in years)

getting snappy with husband and daughter over little things, feeling justified in the moment but realizing my perspective is off.

Visiting Loveshack more often

Fantasizing a lot

Extremely lowered sex drive.

Just feeling so Damn irritated.

EXHAUSTION.

Feeling good one moment and then just feeling irritated again.

Trouble sleeping, little more fearful.

Wanting to be cuddled more often

Ignoring work.

Ignoring housework but being irritated that it isn't done.

Irritated with husband who has been the best he has been in years.

Really irritated with husband.

Feel like I am either being ignored or poked by husband.

Really love being around husband and getting hugged by him.

Irrational mood swings and thought patterns.

 

I AM NOT looking forward to menopause.

 

My mother went through it when I was a teen.

It's amazing natural selection didn't take one of us out.

 

It settles though.

But it is a rough patch.

 

Are you a long-haul guy or a "replace marriage with whatever walmart special comes along?" guy.

 

I also bet she knows if she doesn't put out with xyz frequency that she's on the oldshirt chopping block.

 

Imagine feeling poked, prodded and irritated ALL DAY and the one person who could be patient and supportive of you having one of their feet out the door and you know it. or feeling like they only want you around to clean the bathroom (let's say) and whereas you spent a lot of decades loving cleaning the bathroom, you need to do it a little less often becauseyou feel like irrationally irritated by that and everything else instead. Plus it hurts to clean the bathroom now. It doesn't make the bathroom a better or worse place.

 

screw it. it was a terrible analogy. rejection sucks. it's confusing and it hurts.

but hormone scrap is really not fun either and you suck if you leave your wife because of it .

 

because: you married a female, this isn't some arsewwhole "she's withholding and doesn't loveyou" "she ran off with the poolboy" "you aren't attractive anymore" "wishes you earned more" bullshyte thing.

 

It's a natural part of us aging. It's a bitchy, irritating, no friggingfun part of the package.

[oldshirt]

Oldshirt,

 

 

I wish you the best of luck. But have others have stated, waiting for her to take the initiative may not work.

 

 

I waited for my ex to decide she wanted sex/counseling too. I waited 7 long sexless years before I left. Don't be me. Be more proactive in this regards. Let her know how very, very important this is to you.

 

 

I really hope this works out for you.

 

Understand that I don't go to the bathroom without a plan. I'm not going to just sit twiddling my thumbs indefinatly waiting to see what she'll do.

 

 

If nothing happens by the holidays, I'll start making preparations to put the house on the market, looking for a new place, consulting an attorney etc etc.

 

 

If nothing has happened by 6 months, I'll have a new plan in place and will start executing that.

 

 

It ain't gonna be 7 years of sitting and waiting.

[xxoo]

I'm not waiting for her to suggest MC.

 

 

I said if she brought it up and wanted to do MC, I would participate in good faith.

 

 

I'm just not going to initiate it if she shows no interest in doing it. I'm not going to try to twist her arm on something she doesn't want to do.

 

 

If she's perfectly happy to see walk out the door without doing anything about it, then I have my answer. I don't think it's going to come to that (at least I hope it doesn't) but if she's willing to let the marriage dissolve without seeking professional assistance, then I see no point in me trying to promote MC.

 

Doesn't this strike you as at least a little stubborn?

 

Choices:

A. Do not even mention MC

B. Twist her arm and force her into MC

C. Bring up marriage counseling with the intention of hearing her thoughts on the subject, and have a discussion about the pros and cons.

 

What about C?

[oldshirt]

I agree with every step on your plan except not initiating. The lower drive person who doesn't initiate tends to get used to the other person initiating, and they just....don't. It doesn't necessarily always mean they don't want to, just that they are used to NOT being the initiator. I would recommend maybe not initiating as much and keeping a record of rejections. I think it will give you a truer picture.

.

 

I knew this would be a point of controversy. I have debated this internally myself but for our/my situation I think it is best, at least for this point in time.

 

 

Let me make a couple distinctions. We are not in a sexless marriage and she rarely rejects my sexually. In fact I really couldn't even tell you the last time she said no. I could probably get off the computer right now and sneak her down to the guest room for a quicky while the kids are outside. The issue isn't that she wouldn't do it, the issue is she would just be laying there looking at the clock and telling me to hurry up/be quiet/stop doing that etc etc.

 

 

My issue isn't really the frequency of sex or that she is rejecting me. It is the quality of sex and her detachment during it.

 

 

Our chronic issue over the last few years and what I had to take accountability for in counseling is that she doesn't feel supported and appreciated by me and thinks I am just in it for sex. She doesn't feel appreciated and loved and supported nonsexually.

 

 

This is a different slant than the usual scenario of the guys that haven't had sex in the last year and who's wives have gotten fat and lazy and entitled because the guys are waiting on them hand and foot.

 

 

This is why there are a number of guys on these two threads telling me to "grow some balls and show the bitch who's boss and make her respect you blah blah blah. "

 

 

That is the standard advice for the beta boys who have been waiting on their wives hand and foot hoping they will throw them a bone now and then.

 

 

I believe that for the time being, need to take the opposite approach and take the pressure off of her to have sex and to reconnect on an interpersonal and nonsexual level before the sexual issues can be directly addressed.

 

 

Many men do need to get their wives to respect them and see them as a virile man that can leave them and find another woman. But that is not the universal issue and "grow some balls" is not the universal answer.

 

 

I believe I need to get her to actually like me and feel safe and comfortable around me before she can respect and have a true desire for me.

 

 

She already knows I want to have sex all the time. I have made that quite clear over the last 20 years. (the longest we've ever gone without is 3 weeks and that was after the kids were born)

 

 

And she knows that if the sexuality completely shuts down, she knows I will leave. I don't need to say these things because she already knows it.

 

 

My challenge her is not to get her to have sex. My challenge is to get her to like me enough and have enough trust and comfort with me to actually want to.

 

 

How this plays in with the menopause issue is if I bring it up to seek treatment for it, she will just think I'm doing it to get more poontang and she will shove back and resist. In order to address the menopause issue in good faith, she has to miss the intimacy and closeness and actually want to seek treatment of her own accord.

[oldshirt]

Doesn't this strike you as at least a little stubborn?

 

Choices:

A. Do not even mention MC

B. Twist her arm and force her into MC

C. Bring up marriage counseling with the intention of hearing her thoughts on the subject, and have a discussion about the pros and cons.

 

What about C?

 

 

 

 

 

Gosh, no one has ever accused me of being stubborn before LOL

 

 

I'm not sure why you mentioned "B" because I said I would not twist her arm to go to counseling. I do not consider that an option.

 

 

We've been to counseling a couple times. She knows it's out there and available and she knows it has had some benefit in the past. And she knows I would be accepting of it and would participate in good faith if we were to go. If crap started going down, she knows it's an option and that I would go. It would be up to her. It's not something I am going to push any more.

 

 

And frankly I don't think we are at crisis point at the moment. I may be naïve but I don't think this is something that is out of our hands and requires professional intervention at this point.