Hoping to stop the downhill plunge.... Update.

[xxoo]

It also helps that she's a very affectionate woman outside of sex. She likes to hold hands, always reaches out to touch me, and when she rides behind me on my motorcycle, makes sure I know she's there.

 

I think this is so important.

 

One thing that I notice is that, when the sex drops off, it is often long after the above dropped off. If the man doesn't raise a fuss when the above drops off, and only raises a fuss when the sex drops off, it's too late, imo. And it really does send the message that he only cares about the sex.

 

When the above drops off, it's a big sign. It's time to dig deep and tune up the relationship, because she's checking out. By the time sex drops off, she's been checked out for a while, and she's probably built up resentment that he hasn't seemed to even care.

[oldshirt]

 

 

For example, your wife pulling away when you try to kiss her, stiffening up etc. It's probably not because she doesn't love or care for you, but more likely, because she does, but doesn't trust that you won't want sex. Sure, you may not in this instance, but "sometime" you will. And she just doesn't. Not with you, not with anyone. As my ex says, she just shut off.

 

 

.

 

I imagine this is a big part of it. I can totally see that her being uncomfortable with affectionate physical touch because she's afraid I'll try to pursue more.

 

This is one of the reasons I am going to try to not initiate or pursue sexual contact for he time being.

 

My intent is to be the world's best husband and good friend and good guy blah blah untill the point that I can do no more.

 

At that point I'll have credibility and the ability to negotiate either addressing the issues in a positive manner (which could include treatment for the menopause-related libido issues among other things) or an open marriage or divorce.

 

Thank you for sharing your experiences even though it is one of my biggest fears.

 

I will say that at present my wife is willing at least try. As long as she is willing to try, I will do my best to be the best husband I can be so that she has reason to put for the effort. And if she doesn't, then it will be her choice.

[S2B]

I imagine this is a big part of it. I can totally see that her being uncomfortable with affectionate physical touch because she's afraid I'll try to pursue more.

 

This is one of the reasons I am going to try to not initiate or pursue sexual contact for he time being.

 

My intent is to be the world's best husband and good friend and good guy blah blah untill the point that I can do no more.

 

At that point I'll have credibility and the ability to negotiate either addressing the issues in a positive manner (which could include treatment for the menopause-related libido issues among other things) or an open marriage or divorce.

 

Thank you for sharing your experiences even though it is one of my biggest fears.

 

I will say that at present my wife is willing at least try. As long as she is willing to try, I will do my best to be the best husband I can be so that she has reason to put for the effort. And if she doesn't, then it will be her choice.

 

Your wife is willing to 'try' what? Can you be specific?

 

 

There is no try...only DO. Doing action (contrary action) will bring new results...

 

What is it that your wife is willing to DO now that she hasn't been doing recently?

 

 

If her new action isn't aligned with what you have in mind - it's useless.

 

I'd want to know exactly what she plans to do differently.

 

Did she tell you what that is?

[autumnnight]

OS, it sounds like you are a measrued and objective man, and that is a very good thing.

 

One thing I think some people forget is that, just like things in a marriage don't go from awesome to "oh no" instantly....they don't go from "oh no" to "now she has it right" instantly.

 

It's easy to say, shape up or ship out yesterday.

 

But when people have slidden into bad patterns, and especially once they have allowed insecurity or guard or even resentment to slip in....it IS a process...no matter what Yoda says

 

I have had some unpleasant patterns in my own life before. I can attest that in none of them did my improvement become instant because I just woke up and "did." Trying - yes, trying - was a big part of the process. Trying, working, not quite getting it right, so trying again.

 

Sometimes I think microwaves and the internet have made us forget how people work.

[oldshirt]

Your wife is willing to 'try' what? Can you be specific?

 

 

There is no try...only DO. Doing action (contrary action) will bring new results...

 

What is it that your wife is willing to DO now that she hasn't been doing recently?

 

 

If her new action isn't aligned with what you have in mind - it's useless.

 

I'd want to know exactly what she plans to do differently.

 

Did she tell you what that is?

 

For starters she is still having sex with me when I make a definitive initiation even though I know her heart isn't in it. I consider that trying and putting in the effort.

 

She also has sought treatment for her menopausal symptoms (which also include the hot flashes etc all)

 

 

 

So compared to the other posters here who's spouse's have basically said, "too bad, so sad. Live with it." I'd say she's doing much better than others out there and she does deserve some credit there.

 

As far as what SHE plans to do, that remains to be seen. Before I bring this up to her or give her any ultimatums or anything like that, I need to have my affairs in order and my sht together.

 

Once I have my shyt together and squared away, then I'll address her.

[Ladyjane14]

Where are you getting that I am turning away from her?

 

 

How do you suggest I turn towards her?

 

You're turning away with this sexual initiation gambit. It's not authentic.

Be authentic.

 

 

Give that book I told you about a try. Get two copies and read it together. Work on friendship and HONEST communication. Clearly, she's still interested in pleasing you, hence the sexual contact even when she's not particularly turned on, so you've got something there to work with.

 

I guarantee you that women want the same thing as men... a REAL emotionally intimate connection. The problem here seems to be that neither of you know how to go about getting it.

[oldshirt]

You're turning away with this sexual initiation gambit. It's not authentic.

Be authentic.

 

 

Give that book I told you about a try. Get two copies and read it together. Work on friendship and HONEST communication. Clearly, she's still interested in pleasing you, hence the sexual contact even when she's not particularly turned on, so you've got something there to work with.

 

I guarantee you that women want the same thing as men... a REAL emotionally intimate connection. The problem here seems to be that neither of you know how to go about getting it.

 

The problem is the quality of the sex is so bad that it's getting deleterious to our relationship and connection.

 

She's already thinking that everything I do or say is to get more sex.

 

I have to shore up the other areas of our relationship before addressing the sex issues more.

 

If she initiates, I'll give her love'n that porn stars will stand and applaud, but I'm not initiating it first for the time being.

[oldshirt]

I think this is so important.

 

One thing that I notice is that, when the sex drops off, it is often long after the above dropped off. If the man doesn't raise a fuss when the above drops off, and only raises a fuss when the sex drops off, it's too late, imo. And it really does send the message that he only cares about the sex.

 

When the above drops off, it's a big sign. It's time to dig deep and tune up the relationship, because she's checking out. By the time sex drops off, she's been checked out for a while, and she's probably built up resentment that he hasn't seemed to even care.

 

This is very wise.

 

I wish I had heard this a long time ago in my youth.

[qubist]

This is very wise.

 

I wish I had heard this a long time ago in my youth.

Oldshirt: If I understood you right, please correct me if I'm wrong, your plan of action is to be the best husband you can possibly be, and prove that to her before you can address you issue of lack of sex. what I don't understand is why are you going to stop initiating sex during this period. don't you think that sex is part of being a good husband? don't you want to send a message That Hey I want sex but I'm also a good husband?

[Ladyjane14]

The problem is the quality of the sex is so bad that it's getting deleterious to our relationship and connection.

 

She's already thinking that everything I do or say is to get more sex.

 

I have to shore up the other areas of our relationship before addressing the sex issues more.

 

If she initiates, I'll give her love'n that porn stars will stand and applaud, but I'm not initiating it first for the time being.

 

You're missing the physiological ingredient. Orgasm releases oxytocin in women and vassopressin in men... the "love hormones". Good sex helps to bond you as a couple. It's a chemical reaction that supports emotional connection and says in essence "THIS is my mate".

 

Now, if over the years you've left this woman feeling like a sperm repository.. YOU need to rectify that. And you do it by understanding and then explaining WHY good sex is paramount to the relationship.

 

Your "good husband" plan backfires because this connection is critical. And... it backfires because no matter what your actual intention might be, it comes off as game-playing.

 

She needs to understand that you're not looking for a jungle gym.. you're looking for genuine intimacy on all levels.

 

Read the book.

[GunslingerRoland]

I feel like if you are going to try to fix things, but you have a checklist of reasons you'll leave, you are pretty much doomed before you start. I get where you are coming from with what you need out of your marriage. But IMO you have to say, I'm going to fix my marriage and this is what it'll look like in the end. Rather than saying I'm going to stick around, unless....

 

But I do admire you for looking at yourself and what you need to fix for yourself.

[oldshirt]

You're missing the physiological ingredient. Orgasm releases oxytocin in women and vassopressin in men... the "love hormones". Good sex helps to bond you as a couple. It's a chemical reaction that supports emotional connection and says in essence "THIS is my mate".

 

Now, if over the years you've left this woman feeling like a sperm repository.. YOU need to rectify that. And you do it by understanding and then explaining WHY good sex is paramount to the relationship.

 

 

 

I feel like we are talking in circles.

 

I am not cutting her off and I am not going to reject her. If she wants some lovins, I will gladly give it to her.

 

I am simply saying I will not be hitting on her sexually or trying to initiate sex with her for awhile (the duration of which is yet to be determined)

 

She is not going to be deprived of anything she wants. If she doesn't want any sex, she won't initiate. If she doesn't want it, then she won't be missing it.

 

And trust me, we have discussed the importance of sex in a relationship many times and she knows fully well how important it is to me.

 

This is not something that just popped up out of the blue last Tuesday that hasn't ever been mentioned. This has been an issue to various degrees for several years. We have been through MC twice for related issues. We each know where the other stands.

[Ladyjane14]

I feel like we are talking in circles.

 

I am not cutting her off and I am not going to reject her. If she wants some lovins, I will gladly give it to her.

 

I am simply saying I will not be hitting on her sexually or trying to initiate sex with her for awhile (the duration of which is yet to be determined)

 

She is not going to be deprived of anything she wants. If she doesn't want any sex, she won't initiate. If she doesn't want it, then she won't be missing it.

 

And trust me, we have discussed the importance of sex in a relationship many times and she knows fully well how important it is to me.

 

This is not something that just popped up out of the blue last Tuesday that hasn't ever been mentioned. This has been an issue to various degrees for several years. We have been through MC twice for related issues. We each know where the other stands.

 

Well, good luck with it then.

I've seen how this one comes out... so you're gonna need it.

[autumnnight]

I feel like we are talking in circles.

 

I am not cutting her off and I am not going to reject her. If she wants some lovins, I will gladly give it to her.

 

I am simply saying I will not be hitting on her sexually or trying to initiate sex with her for awhile (the duration of which is yet to be determined)

 

She is not going to be deprived of anything she wants. If she doesn't want any sex, she won't initiate. If she doesn't want it, then she won't be missing it.

 

And trust me, we have discussed the importance of sex in a relationship many times and she knows fully well how important it is to me.

 

This is not something that just popped up out of the blue last Tuesday that hasn't ever been mentioned. This has been an issue to various degrees for several years. We have been through MC twice for related issues. We each know where the other stands.

 

It has been my experience that the stereotypical woman cannot understand where you are coming from because they do not understand how men view sex and intimacy.

 

As a sex-starved spouse, I understand what you are doing and why.

[Ladyjane14]

It has been my experience that the stereotypical woman cannot understand where you are coming from because they do not understand how men view sex and intimacy.

 

As a sex-starved spouse, I understand what you are doing and why.

 

"Stereotypical" or not... what he's planning is most likely going to blow up in his face. When you've lived with somebody for more than 20 years, you're going to recognize a mind game when you see one. And that's what this is.

 

"Stereotypical woman's" response.... "**** him. He wants to see how long he can go... fine by me." When it's a game, EVERYBODY gets to play. You see how that works? More heartache and resentment, because to his mind, his best effort has been rejected.

 

What's happened in alot of these situations is that there have been too many "unfortunate incidents", as Gottman refers to them, which have created resentment and distance. These need to be resolved where possible, and even when they are... Oldshirt will most likely still be the one initiating sex 99% of the time. But just because it might take a little extra effort to get the engine started doesn't mean it won't run.

 

Authenticity. Genuine friendship and respect. There aren't any substitutes for that. Knowing that you are understood and that another person DEEPLY cares about your feelings, that's what creates real intimacy. You can spruce up your wardrobe, whiten your teeth, or scrub the toilets, and it means you've got nicer cloths, a brighter smile, and a fresher smelling bathroom. It doesn't get you the emotional connection you crave.

[xxoo]

I agree that what is needed is genuine connection. Remember back to when you were dating, the conversations you had, the interest you took in each other. That's the sort of intimacy that fuels sex in the marriage bed. The games might provoke a desperate response, but won't fix the underlying issue. You'll soon be back in the same place.

[autumnnight]

"Stereotypical" or not... what he's planning is most likely going to blow up in his face. When you've lived with somebody for more than 20 years, you're going to recognize a mind game when you see one. And that's what this is.

 

"Stereotypical woman's" response.... "**** him. He wants to see how long he can go... fine by me." When it's a game, EVERYBODY gets to play. You see how that works? More heartache and resentment, because to his mind, his best effort has been rejected.

 

What's happened in alot of these situations is that there have been too many "unfortunate incidents", as Gottman refers to them, which have created resentment and distance. These need to be resolved where possible, and even when they are... Oldshirt will most likely still be the one initiating sex 99% of the time. But just because it might take a little extra effort to get the engine started doesn't mean it won't run.

 

Authenticity. Genuine friendship and respect. There aren't any substitutes for that. Knowing that you are understood and that another person DEEPLY cares about your feelings, that's what creates real intimacy. You can spruce up your wardrobe, whiten your teeth, or scrub the toilets, and it means you've got nicer cloths, a brighter smile, and a fresher smelling bathroom. It doesn't get you the emotional connection you crave.

 

You've never been in a sex-starved marriage where you twisted yourself into a pretzel to try to get your partner to want you, have you?

[Mr. Lucky]

I am simply saying I will not be hitting on her sexually or trying to initiate sex with her for awhile (the duration of which is yet to be determined)

 

She is not going to be deprived of anything she wants. If she doesn't want any sex, she won't initiate. If she doesn't want it, then she won't be missing it.

 

Since you've said she'd currently be satisfied living platonically, this decision on your part seems to ensure there won't be a sexual connection. While you might have the right reasons, feels like the wrong result.

 

And trust me, we have discussed the importance of sex in a relationship many times and she knows fully well how important it is to me.

 

If this is true, why embark on an approach that ensures a sexless outcome ???

 

Mr. Lucky

[S2B]

This is an old thread that rides through a lot of similar patterns.

 

It's long - but the OP was willing to try everything...

 

 

http://www.loveshack.org/forums/breaking-up-reconciliation-coping/separation-divorce/274558-25-years-together-time-end-108.html

 

 

It may be worth taking a look at it.

[oldshirt]

Ok, I knew from the start of this thread that me not initiating sex would be controversial and hard for some to understand.

 

I don't know how else to word it or explain it. I know that some will not agree with it even if they do understand it. So for those of you that don't understand it, read back through my responses to this question and try to piece it all together.

 

If you understand what I am saying but simply don't agree with me, I understand. And I accept the possibility that I may be wrong and doing the wrong thing. If I realize I am making a mistake, I will try to rectify it.

 

But I don't know how else to explain it other than what I already have. If people still don't get it, I am at a loss of how to explain so they do.

 

 

See my responses in bold below.

 

 

Oldshirt: If I understood you right, please correct me if I'm wrong, your plan of action is to be the best husband you can possibly be, and prove that to her before you can address you issue of lack of sex. what I don't understand is why are you going to stop initiating sex during this period.

 

as I have said many times before, I want to take the pressure and the emphasis off of the sex because she isn't into it and has stated she is taking one for the team. If I take the pressure off of the sex and work on other areas of myself and our relationship without it being about the sex, then I'll have more credibility than if I'm just whining about sex all the time.

 

don't you think that sex is part of being a good husband?

 

not when the sex is awkward, uncomfortable, stressful (for both parties) and leaves both people feeling dirty and less connected.

 

AGAIN, FOR THE UMPTEENTH TIME PEOPLE, I AM NOT CUTTING HER OFF OR REJECTING HER. I AM NOT GOING TO BE DENYING HER SOMETHING THAT SHE WANTS. IF SHE WANTS TO MAKE LOVE I WILL GLADLY MAKE LOVE TO HER TO THE UTMOST BEST OF MY ABILITY.

 

I AM SIMPLY NOT GOING TO BE HITTING ON HER ALL THE TIME OR INITIATING IT. SHE CAN HAVE AS MUCH SEX AS SHE WANTS, BUT WE NEED TO KEEP IN MIND THAT THE ISSUE HERE IS SHE DOESN'T WANT IT MOST OF THE TIME IF EVER.

 

don't you want to send a message That Hey I want sex but I'm also a good husband?

 

 

again, her issue is that she thinks that's all I want and that it is always about sex. Her issue is NOT that she doesn't know I want to have an active marital sex life.

[oldshirt]

Since you've said she'd currently be satisfied living platonically, this decision on your part seems to ensure there won't be a sexual connection. While you might have the right reasons, feels like the wrong result.

 

 

 

If this is true, why embark on an approach that ensures a sexless outcome ???

 

Mr. Lucky

 

A few different reasons, the big one is the one I've stated over and over, to take the pressure off of her so she's not so defensive and thinking that all I care about is sex.

 

 

And I'll admit, some of it is a test for lack of a better word. If six months from now she hasn't laid a finger on me or brought it up at all, I'll have my answer and a new plan (and it won't be a plan on how to stay together and work things out)

 

I don't think that is going to be the case however. What I think is going to occur is instead of having sex every week, it will be every 2 or more weeks but with the pressure taken off of her and with her making some subtle "green light" moves, it will be occurring at times she is at least somewhat in the mood and game for it and it won't be as awkward and uncomfortable for us.

 

And if I can show that I am ok with that, she may be more willing to address some of the things that are impeding her desire and pleasure without thinking that I am just whining and notching about not getting enough sex.

 

I am willing to sacrifice quantity for better quality.

[oldshirt]

 

And I'll admit, some of it is a test for lack of a better word. If six months from now she hasn't laid a finger on me or brought it up at all, I'll have my answer and a new plan (and it won't be a plan on how to stay together and work things out)

 

I don't think that is going to be the case however.

 

 

 

What I think is going to occur is instead of having sex every week, it will be every 2 or more weeks but with the pressure taken off of her and with her making some subtle "green light" moves, it will be occurring at times she is at least somewhat in the mood and game for it and it won't be as awkward and uncomfortable for us.

 

 

 

 

I want to throw this in there, I don't think she's actually going to go endless weeks or months before she makes a move.

 

Maybe I'm being naive but I think in the next handful of days she is going to want some kind of love' n from Big Daddy Oldshirt.

 

Typically I make a hard initiation for full contact sex about once a week or so. And I'll often make some kind of play for a BJ or HJ or FJ some time in between.

 

It's been about two weeks with no sexual contact at all and she has started to get a little cuddly and made some subtle flirts in the last day or so.

 

I have been sick the last week however with green stuff coming out my nose and bubbling and gurgling in my chest when I try to breathe so I am not really counting this past week at all.

 

Part of this is just to see what her threshold is. If it 2 weeks and she is good to go and is at least somewhat enthusiastic about it and good with it - then it is simply a difference in sex drive and that can be worked with.

 

I can live with good (or at least acceptable) sex every two weeks, better than I can crappy and disengaged sex every 1 week.

 

But if it's months and months and she hasn't mentioned a word or lifted a finger, then we are dealing with an entirely different animal.

[S2B]

If I had EVER had sex with anyone in my life who exhibited resistance and/or body language that indicated they wished to 'get it over with' or dissatisfaction in willingness to participate/enjoy the connection - it would have been THE LAST time I ever got within range of them.

 

Never, ever would I tolerate that.

 

IF a person that was supposed to love and cherish me portrayed body language that they were disgusted with intimacy/sex with me - I wouldn't waste a hot second with them ANY longer!!!

 

When it comes time that you need to beg for decency - it's past time of expecting things to work.

 

She has sent a message and it's loud and clear.

 

 

I'd never beg someone to love me the way I want to be loved.

 

 

Your wife is selfish and self centered. She has 'other openings and a hand" right? IF she thought she could do vaginal sex she's got options of offering satisfaction FOR you!

 

I'm sorry to be bold - and yes, I'm a woman - but your wife doesn't have any consideration for how YOU feel - and makes no attempt to do so.

 

And for that I think you're beating a dead horse.

 

When the horse is dead and never getting up - you admit it's dead and move on.

 

 

I haven't seen anything that you've posted that gives hope that she intends to participate.

 

 

Expectations mean everything. You keep expecting she will change. She's not changing so we have no indication that this will ever be anything but what it is... Her being selfish and you hoping she changes.

 

I think if you served her divorce papers you might actually find out if she's relieved or she intends to change to save the marriage. Anything short of that and you just blowing wind into a tornado.

[BetrayedH]

Ok, I read the other 11 pages and the remainder of this one.

 

I have a lot I could say, most of which has been said already.

 

If there's anything missing (and you did address this to some small extent), it's that I see a medical issue here and it's not being addressed to the appropriate extent that I think it should.

 

I'm not a doctor (and that will be readily apparent here shortly) but my understanding is that with menopause, hormone changes, and age in general, the vagina loses "something." It loses elasticity, or tissue, or something and cannot handle the friction that it once did. And no amount of lube seems to be sufficient to make sex pleasurable.

 

I think your wife is absolutely doing something to care about you and her marriage by "taking one for the team." You are right to credit her for this. And the rest of the crowd here would do well to credit her also. This is not a sexless marriage. It's not one where one spouse has decided to deprive the other of a sex life.

 

Again, I'm not a doctor but I have seen advertisements of late that address this issue for women. I have no idea if they work. But I'd be researching it. Ultimately, you may need to wait until she broaches the subject (so that you're not perceived as just nagging her for more sex) but perhaps there will be a right time for you to share that you've done some research on how sex might become more pleasurable and less painful for her.

 

Again, I have a lot of other general opinions about this situation but I feel that this is one area that has been under-represented in these discussions so far. At minimum, I'd want to see what options exist to try to eliminate this one (and perhaps key) problem in your marriage. This may have NOTHING to do with you or her libido or her desire for you and everything to do with sex being downright painful for her to endure. I would want to do everything possible to eliminate that variable, for both of you.

Edited October 10, 2015 by BetrayedH

[central]

oldshirt, my impression is that you may be the smartest and most insightful poster on this entire relationship forum. If you can't figure out how to resolve your situation, it can't be. The only caveat is that you are close to the situation unlike the situations you respond to, but I think that is only a minor concern.

 

You have a plan, you have a timeline, you have criteria for a decision. Pulling back from initiating sex gives perspective and you will see if she even notices. Of course you know your wife will not initiate - if she has any desire at all, it is responsive desire, no doubt. She may only initiate out of desperation if she thinks you're leaving.

 

I'd say you are ready to leave - and right to think that - and are just giving things one last cast of the dice to be sure.

 

I was in the same situation, and since nothing changed whatever I did, I left. It was the best decision I've ever made, and I've been very happy ever since. I quickly found a fantastic woman who is everything I've ever hoped for in a relationship and a person. I think you can do as well.