Hoping to stop the downhill plunge.... Update.

[sandylee1]

I agree with every step on your plan except not initiating. The lower drive person who doesn't initiate tends to get used to the other person initiating, and they just....don't. It doesn't necessarily always mean they don't want to, just that they are used to NOT being the initiator. I would recommend maybe not initiating as much and keeping a record of rejections. I think it will give you a truer picture.

 

I'm not going to slam you for seeing sexual intimacy as important enough to be a dealbreaker because it is for me too. And that doesn't make either of us shallow. It makes us human.

 

I can relate to this actually. I have the lower drive although I initiate, it's usually my H who does. Ages ago, I got the feeling he was testing me to see how long it would take if he didn't initiate. I began to get worried/upset when he hadn't initiated and was feeling as though he might not be into me anymore. So........I splashed out on some sexy lingerie and modeled it for him..........that did the trick.

[dreamingoftigers]

Does she like to be touched non-sexually?

 

And what you describe about sex seems to be a form of rejection during.

 

I totally get that.

 

Its very painful. You want to get into / be into the moment with your SO and it's like they are thinking about laundry. You still have needs but you feel like a chore because they don't seem all that into it until you're halfway finished, if that.Like, why even bother?

 

Although for me lately with hormones I still have regular sex with husband (because, dammit, it took years to get here and we are having it whether I want to or not!) I find it takes me longer to get really into it myself. I just feel really irritated even during.(it's not him. I just feel really irritated by everything all day long. Went through that during last pregnancy for the first trimester4-5 months too). Even during sex UNTIL I get deep stimulation on my cervix. Then I feel really relieved. I assume you are pretty knowledgeable about your wife's sexuality.

 

I doubt it is completely you.

I did notice my mother sure wasent as game for my fathers a-whole behaviorwhen she was going through it. Her mentality was more "tough luck." She went back to university and got another degree. It changed after she was done though. went back to being codepende.nt.

[Got it]

Off topic

 

 

Dreaming - congrats on the pregnancy from one prego woman to another.. I totally get the hormonal tidal wave!

[BlueIris]

And she knows that if the sexuality completely shuts down, she knows I will leave. I don't need to say these things because she already knows it.

 

My challenge her is not to get her to have sex. My challenge is to get her to like me enough and have enough trust and comfort with me to actually want to.

 

How this plays in with the menopause issue is if I bring it up to seek treatment for it, she will just think I'm doing it to get more poontang and she will shove back and resist. In order to address the menopause issue in good faith, she has to miss the intimacy and closeness and actually want to seek treatment of her own accord.

 

Do you like her?

Are you intimate in any way other than having sex?

 

I'm not understanding the point of staying because it sounds as though you stay only to have unresisted sex and not have to divide things up. That's why I wonder if you like her.

[oldshirt]

 

And what you describe about sex seems to be a form of rejection during.

 

 

 

.

 

 

 

WOW! That is a good way to put it!

 

 

When we had our little talk a couple weeks ago the term I used was that it felt like her body was rejecting me.

 

 

If I go to hug her, I can feel her stiffen up and cant her body away from me slightly. If I try to kiss her, she either turns me a cheek or gives me a quick, light grandma smack. If I touch her arm or something she'll pull it away.

 

 

But yes, during sex, I do feel rejected and like she is disconnected and just letting me use her body to masturbate with.

 

 

It's actually getting so that when we have sex, I feel less bonded and connected that before going into it. There have even been times I feel downright dirty and like I was some kind of molester or masher or something.

 

 

That is another reason while I am pulling back sexually and not initiating or hitting on her or anything.

 

 

If she's in the mood and wants some love'n, I will do my best to please her and make it good for her. But if she's not initiating then I'm not either because it was actually having the opposite effect that what it is supposed to.

[oldshirt]

Do you like her?

Are you intimate in any way other than having sex?

 

I'm not understanding the point of staying because it sounds as though you stay only to have unresisted sex and not have to divide things up. That's why I wonder if you like her.

 

 

 

Ouch! That's kinda harsh.

[oldshirt]

Can't find a thread of yours from last week. Can you link me, or give me the short version? Don't like to hear about you struggling, brother.

 

 

 

The thread is here in the marriage section titled - "Things have been going downhill for awhile......."

 

 

The first few posts are under a different name however (notdeadyet). I tried to post it under an alternate screen name so I could be anonymous and not have people judge their responses based on my past posts but I goofed it up.

[oldshirt]

Was your wife abused or molested as a child?

 

 

 

She's never indicated that and there's no reason to believe that has ever happened. I've never came right out and asked though and I see no reason to.

 

 

She's never been sappy or sentimental or high maintenance or anything but she was always reasonably warm and affectionate and often downright horny. Before the kids came, it was often she that initiated sex and cuddling etc.

 

 

Her stiffening up and turning away when I try to hug or kiss her, even nonsexually, or pulling away if I try to touch her is a fairly recent development. Like probably in the last several months or so. She hasn't always been this way.

[BlueIris]

Ouch! That's kinda harsh.

 

I'm sorry. I don't mean it harshly, just matter of factly. I hope this isn't also or more harsh, just wondering... if you really break it down, do you even like her? I could see why you might not. And if you don't feel emotionally intimate toward her or the two of you don't do emotionally intimate things other than sex, then if I were in your position, I'd probably be staying just to avoid the divorce pain in the neck and have sex sometimes. Maybe that would make me a bad person, but to be honest, sometimes I can only handle so much and have to take a holding pattern until I have the strength to act again.

[oldshirt]

responses in bold below.

 

 

 

 

We know menopause isn't what is in the way of her being decent, affectionate and warm and inviting.

 

So I am less likely to blame ANY of this on menopause.

 

 

I have illusions that everything is due to menopause, but I do think it is a factor.

 

 

When it seems a partner's personality/affection/ability to connect and show loving behavior - there's a reason. You need to know what that reason is.

 

Historically that reason has been that she hasn't felt appreciated or respected in that I don't do enough to with the kids or the household. Our counselor had us do the 'Love Language' test and her love language was strongly acts of service and mine was physical touch (go figure right). I have worked hard to become more involved with the kids and family and household and she has said I've made a great improvement over the last couple years.

I know I have been kind of slacking in those regards lately so that is where I am going to start.

 

 

If she expects to starve you/the marriage of loving words and actions = then there's not much to work with.

 

That's kinda what I'm wondering. If that is the case, I'll know before too long.

 

Actions tell me everything. Since she isn't acting loving and connected - my money would be on a bet she is interested in someone else.

 

Sorry to say that - but I'm a gal and am past her age...

 

 

I am bumping up my vigilance for that. She has the next couple days off so the VAR is going into service. I haven't found anything suspicious in going through her phone, email or facebook. There is also no evidence of any infidelity in the past.

I do have an open mind to that possibility and am looking to see if I can find any evidence of that.

 

 

How did the anniversary go? Did she get you a gift? Offer any affection at all today?

 

 

Anniversary is in a few weeks.

I will write more about our day out today shortly.

 

 

[Ladyjane14]

She's never indicated that and there's no reason to believe that has ever happened. I've never came right out and asked though and I see no reason to.

 

 

She's never been sappy or sentimental or high maintenance or anything but she was always reasonably warm and affectionate and often downright horny. Before the kids came, it was often she that initiated sex and cuddling etc.

 

 

Her stiffening up and turning away when I try to hug or kiss her, even nonsexually, or pulling away if I try to touch her is a fairly recent development. Like probably in the last several months or so. She hasn't always been this way.

 

Well, look at your underlying attitude. You might not think it's putting off a stink, but I don't see how it couldn't. You're essentially in all-about-me mode.

 

If you're looking to end up divorced and alone in the most excruciatingly drawn-out manner... then kudos on the plan. If you want a long-term, intimate relationship with an actual woman... then heed some of the advice you've had above on women's issues, and turn toward your wife instead of away from her ala John Gottman The Seven Principles for Making Marriage Work.

 

Friendship is the key to the castle, but your approach is adversarial. You can't get the connection you're looking by turning away, and even if you were to start a new relationship, you'd end up in the same place because you'd repeat the same thought pattern.

[oldshirt]

Well, look at your underlying attitude. You might not think it's putting off a stink, but I don't see how it couldn't. You're essentially in all-about-me mode.

 

If you're looking to end up divorced and alone in the most excruciatingly drawn-out manner... then kudos on the plan. If you want a long-term, intimate relationship with an actual woman... then heed some of the advice you've had above on women's issues, and turn toward your wife instead of away from her ala John Gottman The Seven Principles for Making Marriage Work.

 

Friendship is the key to the castle, but your approach is adversarial. You can't get the connection you're looking by turning away, and even if you were to start a new relationship, you'd end up in the same place because you'd repeat the same thought pattern.

 

 

Where are you getting that I am turning away from her?

 

 

How do you suggest I turn towards her?

[Daisy2013]

Old Shirt, I don't have any advice to offer as I'm a mess myself. I just wanted to say I hope things work out in your favor. You always offer good advice and in fact, whenever you have posted a reply to someone, I always make sure to read it. Good luck on your journey and may it bring you peace and happiness in whichever direction it goes.

[BikerAccnt]

Oldshirt, your situation sounds very much like what mine was.

 

 

Like yours, mine all started with Menopause. Something my ex will even now admit. We are actually still great friends, even though no longer married.

 

 

Now that we are able to talk dispassionately about it, I've found out some things I suspected, but never knew for sure.

 

 

For example, your wife pulling away when you try to kiss her, stiffening up etc. It's probably not because she doesn't love or care for you, but more likely, because she does, but doesn't trust that you won't want sex. Sure, you may not in this instance, but "sometime" you will. And she just doesn't. Not with you, not with anyone. As my ex says, she just shut off. IT was like a switch for her, and the switch broke. Seeing as I still talk to her monthly, I know that she hasn't dated, or seen anyone , male or female, since I left 8 years ago. Till this day, she tells me she has no interest, and though lonely at times, she won't date because eventually, they will want sex.

 

 

Also, she refused, and still won't, do anything to rectify things. She's won't take hormones or medication. This is a natural part of life ( and I suppose it is) and she won't take drugs to change how she feels.

 

 

That is why I left. It was her way or the highway. No compromise for the relationship, hell, she wouldn't even "take one for the team." I did everything I could think of, read every book imaginable, went to IC, nothing mattered. If one person in the marriage doesn't see something as a problem , then...

 

 

She tells me now she knows how unfair it was to me, but that she never wanted me to leave. She'd have been perfectly happy to live with me as platonic best friends. Something I couldn't do.

 

 

I know menopause doesn't effect everyone the same way, and for some it has no noticeable effects. I relate my story not to make you feel worse, but to let you know I don't think it's all that uncommon either.

 

 

As I said, you wife sounds a lot like my EX, and I hope you can work it out. I wish I could have worked it out. I still care a great deal about my ex, and think she's a wonderful woman. But I can't live with just a best friend, I need more than that.

 

 

I sincerely wish you the best.

Edited October 8, 2015 by BikerAccnt

[autumnnight]

I knew this would be a point of controversy. I have debated this internally myself but for our/my situation I think it is best, at least for this point in time.

 

 

Let me make a couple distinctions. We are not in a sexless marriage and she rarely rejects my sexually. In fact I really couldn't even tell you the last time she said no. I could probably get off the computer right now and sneak her down to the guest room for a quicky while the kids are outside. The issue isn't that she wouldn't do it, the issue is she would just be laying there looking at the clock and telling me to hurry up/be quiet/stop doing that etc etc.

 

 

My issue isn't really the frequency of sex or that she is rejecting me. It is the quality of sex and her detachment during it.

 

 

Our chronic issue over the last few years and what I had to take accountability for in counseling is that she doesn't feel supported and appreciated by me and thinks I am just in it for sex. She doesn't feel appreciated and loved and supported nonsexually.

 

 

This is a different slant than the usual scenario of the guys that haven't had sex in the last year and who's wives have gotten fat and lazy and entitled because the guys are waiting on them hand and foot.

 

 

This is why there are a number of guys on these two threads telling me to "grow some balls and show the bitch who's boss and make her respect you blah blah blah. "

 

 

That is the standard advice for the beta boys who have been waiting on their wives hand and foot hoping they will throw them a bone now and then.

 

 

I believe that for the time being, need to take the opposite approach and take the pressure off of her to have sex and to reconnect on an interpersonal and nonsexual level before the sexual issues can be directly addressed.

 

 

Many men do need to get their wives to respect them and see them as a virile man that can leave them and find another woman. But that is not the universal issue and "grow some balls" is not the universal answer.

 

 

I believe I need to get her to actually like me and feel safe and comfortable around me before she can respect and have a true desire for me.

 

 

She already knows I want to have sex all the time. I have made that quite clear over the last 20 years. (the longest we've ever gone without is 3 weeks and that was after the kids were born)

 

 

And she knows that if the sexuality completely shuts down, she knows I will leave. I don't need to say these things because she already knows it.

 

 

My challenge her is not to get her to have sex. My challenge is to get her to like me enough and have enough trust and comfort with me to actually want to.

 

 

How this plays in with the menopause issue is if I bring it up to seek treatment for it, she will just think I'm doing it to get more poontang and she will shove back and resist. In order to address the menopause issue in good faith, she has to miss the intimacy and closeness and actually want to seek treatment of her own accord.

 

This clarifies a lot for me. I am probably coming at it from a truly sex starved wife perspective (I'm talking 4-5 times a year and none for the last 2-3 years of my marriage). I could have never initiated and it literally would have almost never occurred to him (his words).

[autumnnight]

Also, she refused, and still won't, do anything to rectify things. She's won't take hormones or medication. This is a natural part of life ( and I suppose it is) and she won't take drugs to change how she feels.

 

 

That is why I left. It was her way or the highway. No compromise for the relationship, hell, she wouldn't even "take one for the team." I did everything I could think of, read every book imaginable, went to IC, nothing mattered. If one person in the marriage doesn't see something as a problem , then...

 

 

She tells me now she knows how unfair it was to me, but that she never wanted me to leave. She'd have been perfectly happy to live with me as platonic best friends. Something I couldn't do.

 

I am the wife, so menopause was a non-issue, but this was exactly my ex's attitude - sorry, that part of life is over, deal with it cause I'm not gonna do anything about it. I'm fine - you should be too

 

My hope is that OS's situation does NOT become this at all.

[Mr. Lucky]

Seeing as I still talk to her monthly, I know that she hasn't dated, or seen anyone , male or female, since I left 8 years ago. Till this day, she tells me she has no interest, and though lonely at times, she won't date because eventually, they will want sex.

 

BikerAccnt, how about you? Have you moved on to a new relationship? And if so, I'm curious about any discussion you had with a new partner to avoid the same pitfalls...

 

Mr. Lucky

[Mr. Lucky]

Where are you getting that I am turning away from her?

 

 

How do you suggest I turn towards her?

 

I think there's two schools of thought, both of which I understand.

 

There are those that see menopause as a health issue. If your wife were ill, even if that illness affected her sexual participation, I'd assume you'd stand by her through the challenges.

 

There are others that focus on menopause as a sexual adjustment, similar to most men's declining virility as they age. Importance here is placed on a partner's willingness to put in the effort required to deal with any change.

 

I'd guess most of these situations have components of both sides. And given as to how both health and sexuality are at the core of most of our self-perceptions, your wife's reaction to either can be a wild card in attempting to deal with this.

 

I'd guess as with most things, honest communication remains the key...

 

Mr. Lucky

[BikerAccnt]

BikerAccnt, how about you? Have you moved on to a new relationship? And if so, I'm curious about any discussion you had with a new partner to avoid the same pitfalls...

 

Mr. Lucky

 

 

Hi Lucky,

 

 

Yes, I have. I'm currently involved with a wonderful woman for a bit over 1.5 years. She's also past menopause, but doesn't seem to have some of the same problems/issues.

 

 

We've spoken about this issue in depth on a couple of occasions, and though she says she enjoys sex still, it's not her top need, and she could probably live without it if she had to. (I wish I knew how people can say that)

She knows that the main reason I left my marriage was a lack of physical bonding.

She has however told me, and I mean told me in words, that she knows how important sex is to me, to men, and that because she loves/cares for me, she is happy to have sex with me. That is so much different than what I was used to hearing.

 

 

She has never once told me no. Conversely, I can tell when she really isn't in the mood, or when something else is completely consuming her mind, so I also don't push it. I know she doesn't desire it as much as I do, so I compromise and am happy with less, because 1) it's not that much less that I would prefer and 2) because I know when we make love, it's because she wants to, regardless of it's because she's horny, or because she's doing it out of love. 3) Because when we do make love, we have one hell of a lot of fun.

 

 

It also helps that she's a very affectionate woman outside of sex. She likes to hold hands, always reaches out to touch me, and when she rides behind me on my motorcycle, makes sure I know she's there.

 

 

At this point, I honestly can't ask for more. In this area, she's the opposite of my Ex, and makes me very happy.

[BikerAccnt]

I am the wife, so menopause was a non-issue, but this was exactly my ex's attitude - sorry, that part of life is over, deal with it cause I'm not gonna do anything about it. I'm fine - you should be too

 

My hope is that OS's situation does NOT become this at all.

 

And I hope his situation doesn't become this at all either.

 

 

Autumm, I am aware the situation goes both ways. What I don't understand from a man's perspective, is, that if it is a physical issue, I'd be the first one to run out and get Viagra or some other aid.

 

 

But it's the attitude that matters more. That - The I'm fine, it's not a problem for me thing.

[xxoo]

It also helps that she's a very affectionate woman outside of sex. She likes to hold hands, always reaches out to touch me, and when she rides behind me on my motorcycle, makes sure I know she's there.

 

I think this is so important.

 

One thing that I notice is that, when the sex drops off, it is often long after the above dropped off. If the man doesn't raise a fuss when the above drops off, and only raises a fuss when the sex drops off, it's too late, imo. And it really does send the message that he only cares about the sex.

 

When the above drops off, it's a big sign. It's time to dig deep and tune up the relationship, because she's checking out. By the time sex drops off, she's been checked out for a while, and she's probably built up resentment that he hasn't seemed to even care.

[oldshirt]

 

 

For example, your wife pulling away when you try to kiss her, stiffening up etc. It's probably not because she doesn't love or care for you, but more likely, because she does, but doesn't trust that you won't want sex. Sure, you may not in this instance, but "sometime" you will. And she just doesn't. Not with you, not with anyone. As my ex says, she just shut off.

 

 

.

 

I imagine this is a big part of it. I can totally see that her being uncomfortable with affectionate physical touch because she's afraid I'll try to pursue more.

 

This is one of the reasons I am going to try to not initiate or pursue sexual contact for he time being.

 

My intent is to be the world's best husband and good friend and good guy blah blah untill the point that I can do no more.

 

At that point I'll have credibility and the ability to negotiate either addressing the issues in a positive manner (which could include treatment for the menopause-related libido issues among other things) or an open marriage or divorce.

 

Thank you for sharing your experiences even though it is one of my biggest fears.

 

I will say that at present my wife is willing at least try. As long as she is willing to try, I will do my best to be the best husband I can be so that she has reason to put for the effort. And if she doesn't, then it will be her choice.

[autumnnight]

OS, it sounds like you are a measrued and objective man, and that is a very good thing.

 

One thing I think some people forget is that, just like things in a marriage don't go from awesome to "oh no" instantly....they don't go from "oh no" to "now she has it right" instantly.

 

It's easy to say, shape up or ship out yesterday.

 

But when people have slidden into bad patterns, and especially once they have allowed insecurity or guard or even resentment to slip in....it IS a process...no matter what Yoda says

 

I have had some unpleasant patterns in my own life before. I can attest that in none of them did my improvement become instant because I just woke up and "did." Trying - yes, trying - was a big part of the process. Trying, working, not quite getting it right, so trying again.

 

Sometimes I think microwaves and the internet have made us forget how people work.

[oldshirt]

Your wife is willing to 'try' what? Can you be specific?

 

 

There is no try...only DO. Doing action (contrary action) will bring new results...

 

What is it that your wife is willing to DO now that she hasn't been doing recently?

 

 

If her new action isn't aligned with what you have in mind - it's useless.

 

I'd want to know exactly what she plans to do differently.

 

Did she tell you what that is?

 

For starters she is still having sex with me when I make a definitive initiation even though I know her heart isn't in it. I consider that trying and putting in the effort.

 

She also has sought treatment for her menopausal symptoms (which also include the hot flashes etc all)

 

 

 

So compared to the other posters here who's spouse's have basically said, "too bad, so sad. Live with it." I'd say she's doing much better than others out there and she does deserve some credit there.

 

As far as what SHE plans to do, that remains to be seen. Before I bring this up to her or give her any ultimatums or anything like that, I need to have my affairs in order and my sht together.

 

Once I have my shyt together and squared away, then I'll address her.

[Ladyjane14]

Where are you getting that I am turning away from her?

 

 

How do you suggest I turn towards her?

 

You're turning away with this sexual initiation gambit. It's not authentic.

Be authentic.

 

 

Give that book I told you about a try. Get two copies and read it together. Work on friendship and HONEST communication. Clearly, she's still interested in pleasing you, hence the sexual contact even when she's not particularly turned on, so you've got something there to work with.

 

I guarantee you that women want the same thing as men... a REAL emotionally intimate connection. The problem here seems to be that neither of you know how to go about getting it.