Hoping to stop the downhill plunge.... Update.

[JADIE]

It has been my experience that the stereotypical woman cannot understand where you are coming from because they do not understand how men view sex and intimacy.

 

As a sex-starved spouse, I understand what you are doing and why.

 

Me too. 100% agree with OP's approach. I think any woman in a marriage or contemplating marriage should read Shaunti Feldman's book For Women Only. In it, she details research that shows just how devastating it is to a man to have his wife behave as a masturbatory receptable. No quicker way to to completely emasculate him and destroy the relationship. I think the description one of the participants gave was that he'd rather trim the backyard hedge in the rain than go through sex with his wife when she made it clear she was just laying there doing her duty.

 

Ick. I couldn't do that to somebody. Firm believer in bioidentical hormone replacement therapy...it changed my life.

[MidwestUSA]

I'll fill in a couple of blanks for BH.

 

I don't know what the latest on TV is, but there's a lot to be said for hormone replacement therapy, and estrogen cream right to the vagina helps with atrophy.

 

And, as my gyne put it to me, it's literally 'use it or lose it'. The more sex I had, the better 'condition' I was in to have sex. Blood flow.

 

That doesn't change the fact that you have to want it. I don't think OP's wife, under her current circumstances, is going to be initiating much.

 

I'm not going to address the 'pink pill'. I don't think there's enough evidence out there on it yet, approval or not.

 

2 cents, from five years out.

[oldshirt]

.

 

If there's anything missing (and you did address this to some small extent), it's that I see a medical issue here and it's not being addressed to the appropriate extent that I think it should.

 

 

I think your wife is absolutely doing something to care about you and her marriage by "taking one for the team." You are right to credit her for this. And the rest of the crowd here would do well to credit her also. This is not a sexless marriage. It's not one where one spouse has decided to deprive the other of a sex life.

 

 

 

Ultimately, you may need to wait until she broaches the subject (so that you're not perceived as just nagging her for more sex) but perhaps there will be a right time for you to share that you've done some research on how sex might become more pleasurable and less painful for her.

 

 

 

 

.

 

THANKS FOR GETTING THIS!!!!!

 

 

The menopause IS a significant factor. How much exactly I don't know yet, but it is a major player in this.

 

 

As you noted, I can't push her to continue to seek treatment for the libido and vaginal discomfort issues at present because she will just think I am trying to get her to alter her body chemistry so I can get more poon.

 

 

But if I scale back in the sex department and shore up the other areas of our relationship and home life, I will have more credibility and she will feel more secure. And hopefully she will actually want to have more closeness and bonding through sexuality and will voluntarily seek treatment options of her own volition rather than simply complying to my whining.

 

 

Thanks for understanding that piece of the puzzle and helping to explain!

[oldshirt]

oldshirt, my impression is that you may be the smartest and most insightful poster on this entire relationship forum. If you can't figure out how to resolve your situation, it can't be. The only caveat is that you are close to the situation unlike the situations you respond to, but I think that is only a minor concern.

 

You have a plan, you have a timeline, you have criteria for a decision. Pulling back from initiating sex gives perspective and you will see if she even notices. Of course you know your wife will not initiate - if she has any desire at all, it is responsive desire, no doubt. She may only initiate out of desperation if she thinks you're leaving.

 

I'd say you are ready to leave - and right to think that - and are just giving things one last cast of the dice to be sure.

 

I was in the same situation, and since nothing changed whatever I did, I left. It was the best decision I've ever made, and I've been very happy ever since. I quickly found a fantastic woman who is everything I've ever hoped for in a relationship and a person. I think you can do as well.

 

 

 

Thanks for the vote of confidence Central although I must admit, it is a little unsettling. I will confess I kind of get a little reassurance when the other posters tell me I am doing it wrong. If I'm wrong in my approach that means there may be another avenue that I am missing that might work.

 

 

However if I am right, and I do everything in my ability to do and I still fail, that means it really is all she wrote :-( And I am not sure I am ready for that yet.

 

 

But you are right, I am not a detached and disinterested 3rd party in this situation. I am chest-deep in it and not the least bit unbiased. I no doubt have a number of blind spots and people are helping me shine some light on to. It's a whole different story when you are on the other side of the computer screen.

[qubist]

Ok, I knew from the start of this thread that me not initiating sex would be controversial and hard for some to understand.

 

I don't know how else to word it or explain it. I know that some will not agree with it even if they do understand it. So for those of you that don't understand it, read back through my responses to this question and try to piece it all together.

 

If you understand what I am saying but simply don't agree with me, I understand. And I accept the possibility that I may be wrong and doing the wrong thing. If I realize I am making a mistake, I will try to rectify it.

 

But I don't know how else to explain it other than what I already have. If people still don't get it, I am at a loss of how to explain so they do.

 

 

See my responses in bold below.

First of all let me express how much I admire your logic and courage, It's soooo easy for us to sit here and type do X,Y and Z, but to actually doing it is another story. you are not just suggesting X,Y and Zs to some virtual friend, you are actually planing it for yourself and willing to take all risks that might come with it. for that I tip my hat to you and wish you all the luck.

However, I still think (and again i know it easier for me to type X Y and Z) that sex should still be there in some sort. I understand you want to take all the pressure off her shoulder but I think that you should kind of remind her of your needs in the process, you don't have to go aggressive asking for it but there are 10000s of ways to show interest, even if she wouldn't respond to them or react in a way that you would like but at least the message will be out there.

[oldshirt]

First of all let me express how much I admire your logic and courage, It's soooo easy for us to sit here and type do X,Y and Z, but to actually doing it is another story. you are not just suggesting X,Y and Zs to some virtual friend, you are actually planing it for yourself and willing to take all risks that might come with it. for that I tip my hat to you and wish you all the luck.

However, I still think (and again i know it easier for me to type X Y and Z) that sex should still be there in some sort. I understand you want to take all the pressure off her shoulder but I think that you should kind of remind her of your needs in the process, you don't have to go aggressive asking for it but there are 10000s of ways to show interest, even if she wouldn't respond to them or react in a way that you would like but at least the message will be out there.

 

Thanks for understanding that it's a little different when you are the one in the hotseat and have to make it happen.

 

 

In regards to showing interest, you need to understand that I am very sexually assertive in nature. I flirt with her. hit on her. Make little sexual innuendos and jokes, cop a feel, make sexually suggestive comments EVERY. SINGLE. DAY and I have done that daily since we have been a couple. For the last couple years I have only been making a hard initiation about once a week, but the flirting and bantering goes on daily.

 

 

We have also been to counseling twice and discussed the role of sexuality in our marriage.

 

 

She knows where I stand. She knows where she stands.

 

 

I am simply taking some of that sexual pressure off of her so I can address a variety of issues in our relationship without her thinking I am just doing it to get more poon.

 

 

I am still warm and affectionate with her. I still laugh and joke with her. We sat on the couch with my arm around her and holding hands last night.

 

 

I am not cutting her off from warmth and affection. I am not rejecting her if she wants to make love. I am just simply pulling back on the hard initiations and not trying to score with her like I used to.

 

 

On some level, it may not be the perfect strategy. It may even be wrong. But it's what I feel in my gut is the right thing to do at this point in time.

 

 

If I am wrong and you all are right, then you can say I don't you so.

[qubist]

Thanks for understanding that it's a little different when you are the one in the hotseat and have to make it happen.

 

 

In regards to showing interest, you need to understand that I am very sexually assertive in nature. I flirt with her. hit on her. Make little sexual innuendos and jokes, cop a feel, make sexually suggestive comments EVERY. SINGLE. DAY and I have done that daily since we have been a couple. For the last couple years I have only been making a hard initiation about once a week, but the flirting and bantering goes on daily.

 

 

We have also been to counseling twice and discussed the role of sexuality in our marriage.

 

 

She knows where I stand. She knows where she stands.

 

 

I am simply taking some of that sexual pressure off of her so I can address a variety of issues in our relationship without her thinking I am just doing it to get more poon.

 

 

I am still warm and affectionate with her. I still laugh and joke with her. We sat on the couch with my arm around her and holding hands last night.

 

 

I am not cutting her off from warmth and affection. I am not rejecting her if she wants to make love. I am just simply pulling back on the hard initiations and not trying to score with her like I used to.

 

 

On some level, it may not be the perfect strategy. It may even be wrong. But it's what I feel in my gut is the right thing to do at this point in time.

 

 

If I am wrong and you all are right, then you can say I don't you so.

I don't think you wrong I believe you are amazingly confident taking the " hot seat" most people won't I know for sure I wouldn't take it.

just curious has she noticed that you haven't being initiating sex? if she does I wonder if her mind leads her to any other explanation. I know if she asked a question here in this forum why her H is not initiating sex anymore , 90% of the answers would be " he is probably having an affair!!"

[oldshirt]

just curious has she noticed that you haven't being initiating sex? QUOTE]

 

 

 

Not really, however I have been sick the last week and have been in no shape to be hitting on anyone.

 

 

While it has sucked not being able to breathe and honking up green stuff all the time, it has probably come at a perfect time so that it doesn't seem like I have suddenly taken a 180 in my behavior over night.

[S2B]

What happens when/if she initiates sex?

 

Does that fix everything in the marriage?

[qubist]

just curious has she noticed that you haven't being initiating sex? QUOTE]

 

 

 

Not really, however I have been sick the last week and have been in no shape to be hitting on anyone.

 

 

While it has sucked not being able to breathe and honking up green stuff all the time, it has probably come at a perfect time so that it doesn't seem like I have suddenly taken a 180 in my behavior over night.

take care of yourself I hope you'll feel better.

I can't imagine that she wouldn't notice that you are in a "mission". eventually she would. don't you think so?

[oldshirt]

Hello again, I wanted to give a little update as it's been a week since I put my plan into effect.

 

 

I've had a couple snags and bumps in the road as well as making a little progress (or so I hope)

 

 

I have been sick so really haven't accomplished much in the gym although I have been eating better and I am down a couple pounds from last week.

 

 

I have gotten into her Facebook, emails and phone and have not found anything fishy. I did place the VAR in the house a couple days last week when she was home and nothing suspicious turned up on that. I plan to use it some more this week coming up.

 

 

I haven't tried to initiate anything sexual but like I said I have been sick. However something interesting did happen yesterday that Im not quite sure how to interpret so I'll just spell it out and you folks can give me your thoughts.

 

 

About Friday she asked me if I'd feel good enough to kiss her over the weekend and I replied that I hope so since it had been awhile (we hadn't kissed or touched or anything for about 2 weeks)

 

 

Sat morning I got up early and she slept in. When she woke up I came in the bed room and was just hanging out chit chatting. She was naked in bed (she sleeps naked) and I was fully dressed. She reached out and took my hand and asked if I would kiss her. I said I'd be honored and we actually made out for several minutes. Frankly, it was the first time we really kissed and she didn't just give me quick grandma kisses in a long long time.

 

 

After a few minutes of making out we kind of stopped and I was still trying to hold myself back and not make any strong initiations. She really wasn't doing anything either or making any kind of overatures so I started to get up and was going to do some stuff around the house.

 

 

Before I left the room she told me to wait and to shut and lock the door and come back to bed and do her between the boobs. Yes you read that right, she wanted it between the boobs.

 

 

I'm going to be a bit graphic here so you get the picture and can help me interpret what this means.

 

 

anyway, I shut and locked the door. Got undressed, got back into bed and started feeling her up and making out again. After several minutes of this I started gently fingering her clit and after a few minutes she had an orgasm (or did a reasonable job of faking it)

 

 

Once she regained her composure she reiterated that she wanted it between the boobs so I lubed up her breasts with some lube and straddled her chest and she wrapped her boobs around my junk and we started doing that.

 

 

We were both having a good time and after awhile I could tell that I was going to orgasm shortly and I asked her if she wanted me to finish that way of if she wanted me inside her.

 

 

She said she wanted me to finish on her chest and we would have actual sex "later".

 

 

So I finished between her boobs and she got up and took a shower and then after her shower said something again about hooking up "later."

 

 

Of course "later" never came during the weekend.

 

 

So what was that all about???????

 

 

Was that an initiation on her part????? Was that just a diversion to drain my tank so that I didn't try anything else??

 

 

Was she kinda horny but just didn't want to go all the way?

 

 

In the past, she can and often does orgasm from doing it between the boobs. It is one of both of our favorite "alternative techniques and she has asked for that before, so it's not like it was anything shocking or anything, but I don't know exactly what to make of that.

 

 

It's certainly nothing that I initiated or anything.

 

 

Was this a good sign or a bad sign or was it any kind of 'sign' at all??

 

 

Any thoughts???????

[DKT3]

Maybe she figured it was time for a release. IDK, sounds like progress.

 

I do have a question about your plan. Do you have any fear that she could read into your sexual 180 in a different manner? Causing her to become both insecure and curious about the change? It doesn't appear to me (maybe I'm wrong) that she is open to sharing her feelings in that area with you.

[S2B]

Hello again, I wanted to give a little update as it's been a week since I put my plan into effect.

 

 

I've had a couple snags and bumps in the road as well as making a little progress (or so I hope)

 

 

I have been sick so really haven't accomplished much in the gym although I have been eating better and I am down a couple pounds from last week.

 

 

I have gotten into her Facebook, emails and phone and have not found anything fishy. I did place the VAR in the house a couple days last week when she was home and nothing suspicious turned up on that. I plan to use it some more this week coming up.

 

 

I haven't tried to initiate anything sexual but like I said I have been sick. However something interesting did happen yesterday that Im not quite sure how to interpret so I'll just spell it out and you folks can give me your thoughts.

 

 

About Friday she asked me if I'd feel good enough to kiss her over the weekend and I replied that I hope so since it had been awhile (we hadn't kissed or touched or anything for about 2 weeks)

 

 

Sat morning I got up early and she slept in. When she woke up I came in the bed room and was just hanging out chit chatting. She was naked in bed (she sleeps naked) and I was fully dressed. She reached out and took my hand and asked if I would kiss her. I said I'd be honored and we actually made out for several minutes. Frankly, it was the first time we really kissed and she didn't just give me quick grandma kisses in a long long time.

 

 

After a few minutes of making out we kind of stopped and I was still trying to hold myself back and not make any strong initiations. She really wasn't doing anything either or making any kind of overatures so I started to get up and was going to do some stuff around the house.

 

 

Before I left the room she told me to wait and to shut and lock the door and come back to bed and do her between the boobs. Yes you read that right, she wanted it between the boobs.

 

 

I'm going to be a bit graphic here so you get the picture and can help me interpret what this means.

 

 

anyway, I shut and locked the door. Got undressed, got back into bed and started feeling her up and making out again. After several minutes of this I started gently fingering her clit and after a few minutes she had an orgasm (or did a reasonable job of faking it)

 

 

Once she regained her composure she reiterated that she wanted it between the boobs so I lubed up her breasts with some lube and straddled her chest and she wrapped her boobs around my junk and we started doing that.

 

 

We were both having a good time and after awhile I could tell that I was going to orgasm shortly and I asked her if she wanted me to finish that way of if she wanted me inside her.

 

 

She said she wanted me to finish on her chest and we would have actual sex "later".

 

 

So I finished between her boobs and she got up and took a shower and then after her shower said something again about hooking up "later."

 

 

Of course "later" never came during the weekend.

 

 

So what was that all about???????

 

 

Was that an initiation on her part????? Was that just a diversion to drain my tank so that I didn't try anything else??

 

 

Was she kinda horny but just didn't want to go all the way?

 

 

In the past, she can and often does orgasm from doing it between the boobs. It is one of both of our favorite "alternative techniques and she has asked for that before, so it's not like it was anything shocking or anything, but I don't know exactly what to make of that.

 

 

It's certainly nothing that I initiated or anything.

 

 

Was this a good sign or a bad sign or was it any kind of 'sign' at all??

 

 

Any thoughts???????

 

 

It means she does get horny.

 

It also means it's good you two have alternative methods of orgasming. Why isn't this an option all the time? If sex is painful with penetration then just always opt for other methods.

 

Don't 'ask for' penetration - wait until she begs you for that. By that time she may have no pain and need no lube.

[oldshirt]

It means she does get horny.

 

It also means it's good you two have alternative methods of orgasming. Why isn't this an option all the time? If sex is painful with penetration then just always opt for other methods.

 

Don't 'ask for' penetration - wait until she begs you for that. By that time she may have no pain and need no lube.

 

 

 

It is an option. I am willing to do alternative methods to a certain extent, just not sure if that is all I want to do for the rest of my life if you know what I mean.

 

 

And I am still sticking to my 'no initiating' plan for the time being and seeing where things go from here.

[qubist]

Maybe she figured it was time for a release. IDK, sounds like progress.

 

I do have a question about your plan. Do you have any fear that she could read into your sexual 180 in a different manner? Causing her to become both insecure and curious about the change? It doesn't appear to me (maybe I'm wrong) that she is open to sharing her feelings in that area with you.

I'm curious about her reaction too, assuming she isn't under the influence of any fog of course, It's has to make her wonder the reasons of the sudden 180.

OS: I don't know what to make of what happened last weekend. maybe the ladies here can help you better understand her behavior. to me it's a progress she promised a full sex even it didn't happen but at least she gave an indication that intimacy between the 2 of you still exists. IMO she just need to address her issue with professional help both physical and mental.

[S2B]

Don't overthink it. It's progress. It's something rather than nothing.

 

 

The intimacy needs work too... So if she's offering the release you may still be left unfulfilled because she's not mentally close to you or physically close by touching at other times.

 

In other words - what's the goal - sex (release) or feeling close to her in other ways.

 

She may share her body, although limited - but will she share her thoughts and actions too in order to make you feel valued?

[autumnnight]

Advice from one who did this:

 

Be careful not to get caught up in the ebb and flow rollercoaster of each day. That was something I did. Today he seemed affectionate, maybe things are better? No, no, the next two days he wouldn't touch me, so nevermind. It can be mentally exhausting.

 

Look at trends, patterns, the big picture. Try not to over analyze each day or even each week.

[oldshirt]

Maybe she figured it was time for a release. IDK, sounds like progress.

 

I do have a question about your plan. Do you have any fear that she could read into your sexual 180 in a different manner? Causing her to become both insecure and curious about the change? It doesn't appear to me (maybe I'm wrong) that she is open to sharing her feelings in that area with you.

 

She is not into sharing her feelings on anything. I pretty much have to go by feel or observe her actions and see how she responds to things. She'll never just come out and say something.

 

At this point I am not afraid of her getting insecure. I think she'll appreciate the relief.

 

If I were to stop talking to her and give her the cold shoulder and just do my own thing without regards to her, she would get angry and bitter. But I am not doing that. I am still interacting with her in a positive manner, just not hitting on her sexually.

[xxoo]

 

 

Was that an initiation on her part????? Was that just a diversion to drain my tank so that I didn't try anything else??

 

What's the difference?

 

It was definitely initiation, but as you can clearly see initiation doesn't necessarily mean hot and horny. It can mean wanting connection, wanting please, or wanting to keep the peace.

[oldshirt]

What's the difference?

 

It was definitely initiation, but as you can clearly see initiation doesn't necessarily mean hot and horny. It can mean wanting connection, wanting please, or wanting to keep the peace.

 

I guess when you word it like that, I am trying to take "keep the peace" out of the equation.

 

If I don't make any issues out of sex, I'm hoping she won't feel the need to "keep the peace" and will only have sex if she actually wants to.

[xxoo]

I guess when you word it like that, I am trying to take "keep the peace" out of the equation.

 

If I don't make any issues out of sex, I'm hoping she won't feel the need to "keep the peace" and will only have sex if she actually wants to.

 

But you've made it clear that you'll divorce if sex doesn't happen. So she has a lot of reasons to keep the sex in the marriage whether she actually wants it or not.

[oldshirt]

But you've made it clear that you'll divorce if sex doesn't happen. So she has a lot of reasons to keep the sex in the marriage whether she actually wants it or not.

 

I don't know how long someone can keep up an activity that they aren't into though.

 

I can see someone doing duty sex for awhile if the other spouse is pushing for it and initiating.

 

But once that initiation stops and they are no longer striving to have it, I don't know how much longer the disinterested spouse will keep doing it if at all.

 

If left to their own initiative, people rarely put much effort into doing what they don't want to do sexually. Some people will have sex to keep the peace and do duty sex if the other person is asking for it and initiating it. But I doubt if it happens much if at all once the other person stops initiating.

[S2B]

So if she gives some sort of sex but doesn't share feelings and intimacy - is that good enough for you to stay?

[Realist3]

oldshirt,

 

Sorry you are dealing with these issues, but they are not all that unusual. I think your real issue here is menopause. They don't call it 'The Change' for nothing. I ts not just physical but highly emotional as well for some women. The idea to educate yourself on the topic is very wise. I would bet there are forums that deal strictly with this issue.

 

Being more involved, working on yourself, slowing down on the sex for the time being can be powerful. Flirting throughout the day without the expectation of sex works.

 

You mentioned that she is not the most communicative about her feelings/emotions. That makes it tough, but you know her well enough to read her. Change it up. What works one day may work a couple of days away. She is on a roller coaster, and it is going to take some patience while she adjusts to this time in her life..

[Realist3]

Another idea you might want to try is writing her a letter. After you have taken a few weeks to see what works and doesn't. Tell her your concerns and your vulnerabilities. People sometimes forget how powerful the written word can be, plus it would take any anxieties she might have in having you state them to her face, and her having to respond immediately given her lack of communication desires.