Hoping to stop the downhill plunge.... Update.

[SummerDreams]

Just one question. What does her list look like or are you the only one doing the changing to save the marriage?

 

I'm not sure she is aware that her marriage is in jeopardy and this is what I don't like with this plan.

[oldshirt]

Dig deeper...

 

 

You seem as if you're answering the questions but you just don't quite answer.

 

It's like you don't really want to hit what's being asked...

 

Sorry, it must be going over my head then. What is it exactly that you are asking?

[oldshirt]

Just one question. What does her list look like or are you the only one doing the changing to save the marriage?

 

She has no list. It is all business as usual for her.

 

And I am not really trying to "save the marriage."

 

We are not in crisis at present.

[oldshirt]

I'm not sure she is aware that her marriage is in jeopardy and this is what I don't like with this plan.

 

Our marriage is not in jeopardy at this time.

 

There are no threats or plans of divorce.

 

Now if I find out there is another man, or if in 6 months I look like a hot hunk and I am the perfect husband and father and friend and I have expressed my desire for a more intimate relationship and she completely stiff arms me and wants nothing to do with that, it may be a different story.

 

But for now, there is no jeopardy.

[xxoo]

YES!!! You are right on the money in everything you said.

 

I have come to realize and accept that I give and receive love and affirmation and acceptance through my sexuality.

 

I simply cannot live and be fulfilled with a woman who does not desire, want me or accept me sexually. I was probably one of the guys that people love to hate on in my younger days when I wouldn't date someone once it was apparent we weren't sexually compatible regardless of what other assets they offered.

 

I really don't care if a woman can cook or clean. As long as she is not neglectful or abusive, I don't really care how great of a mother she is. As long as she isn't a criminal or a psycho or just plain nasty, I don't care about her status in the community or how active she is in the school or community. And frankly, as long as a woman isn't deformed/disfigured, fat or unhygenic, I'm not that hung up on beauty (although my wife was a state-level beauty pageant contestant, so it certainly doesn't hurt LOL)

 

What matters to me most, assuming a woman is a good, decent person with no major hang ups or deal breakers to begin with, is a compatible sexual chemistry.

 

My wife and used to have that for many years. I accept that as we age, our lisp and mojo decline. I am not the man I was 10 years ago either so I get that.

 

But what is at issue here is how fast that has dropped off the charts and the degree.

 

What has shaken me is since I primarily give and receive love and acceptance through physical affection and sexual chemistry, it has seriously shaken my confidence and security that she loves or accepts me AT ALL.

 

Her love language is acts of service, so she feels she is showing me love by making the house spotless, being the world's greatest mother to my children (which she is) and by being and educated, respectful professional that brings in an about 50 % of our households income.

 

To her, she's busting her arse to be a great wife and mother. But to me, if there's no physical connection and chemistry, it's all suspect.

 

I could live in a box under a bridge and live on ramen noodles and what left over burgers we could find in McDonald's dumpster, but if I had a hot, horny chick that had the big time hots for me, I'd be good with it.

 

Now I want to make an important point but I will post it is a separate post so it doesn't get lost in the blah blah blah....

 

You had it for years, so it isn't like your wife is just not the sexual type at core. She was. Now she's menopausal. Things change.

 

This post sounds like she's working very hard to be enough for you now that her sex drive has been hit by menopause, and it isn't enough for you. Her efforts aren't enough for you. Who she is now isn't what you want. I suspect that her intact family is important to her, as is being a good wife, thus she will participate in sex. If you stop initiating altogether, she may conclude that you've lost interest (heck, you've said that it could happen at your age!). That would be an unfair "test" if there was no communication about the purpose of you not initiating. She may slowly conclude everyone is happy without, if that's the way you're acting.

[oldshirt]

You had it for years, so it isn't like your wife is just not the sexual type at core. She was. Now she's menopausal. Things change.

 

This post sounds like she's working very hard to be enough for you now that her sex drive has been hit by menopause, and it isn't enough for you. Her efforts aren't enough for you. Who she is now isn't what you want. I suspect that her intact family is important to her, as is being a good wife, thus she will participate in sex. If you stop initiating altogether, she may conclude that you've lost interest (heck, you've said that it could happen at your age!). That would be an unfair "test" if there was no communication about the purpose of you not initiating. She may slowly conclude everyone is happy without, if that's the way you're acting.

 

I am sure that is a risk.

 

But it is also an exercise for me as well to see if I can shift some of my sexual energies into other aspects of our relationship, home and family.

 

In other words it's kind of a test for myself as well to see if I can live and be happy and healthy with a decreasing amount of sexuality.

 

It's not really fair for me to sit here and spout off on how I can't live without it if I haven't actually tried to.

 

I believe I can sacrifice some quantity if the quality can be improved. I have to test myself on that theory.

[oldshirt]

......and also keep in mind that she does not typically reject my earnest initiations. If I make a definitive initiation she almost always complies.

 

I am not saying that I will never make another initiation again as long as I live. I am just making a mindful effort to dial the sexuality back, focus more on other things and follow her lead and her initiative for awhile to see what happens with both her and myself.

 

I reserve the right to initiate if I feel the need to do so.

 

In fact, our 20th anniversary is coming up in a couple weeks and I am planning a nice little daytime getaway while the kids are in school. I shall not be sitting on my hands hoping she makes a move that day ;-) :-D

[Realist3]

I really don't care if a woman can cook or clean. As long as she is not neglectful or abusive, I don't really care how great of a mother she is. As long as she isn't a criminal or a psycho or just plain nasty, I don't care about her status in the community or how active she is in the school or community. And frankly, as long as a woman isn't deformed/disfigured, fat or unhygenic, I'm not that hung up on beauty (although my wife was a state-level beauty pageant contestant, so it certainly doesn't hurt LOL)

 

What matters to me most, assuming a woman is a good, decent person with no major hang ups or deal breakers to begin with, is a compatible sexual chemistry.

 

It really sounds like all you desire is a vessel to relieve what sounds more like sex addiction, than a love language.

 

God forbid you were in an accident and became paralyzed and could no longer have sex, what would you do? Would you expect your wife to leave you because you could no longer have sex?

 

Do you actually love your wife?

[autumnnight]

Our marriage is not in jeopardy at this time.

 

There are no threats or plans of divorce.

 

Now if I find out there is another man, or if in 6 months I look like a hot hunk and I am the perfect husband and father and friend and I have expressed my desire for a more intimate relationship and she completely stiff arms me and wants nothing to do with that, it may be a different story.

 

But for now, there is no jeopardy.

 

I think that people are not quite understanding your position or strategy because things on forums tend to be so all or nothing.

 

Like the remark about wishing she had never married you. When people are very angry, they sometimes say things just to hurt. This was said several years ago during a bad time in the heat of an argument. It is not an accurate measure.

 

You are improving yourself and your actions as a husband while observing and taking the marital temperature. You are not halfway out the door with a separation agreement hidden under the mattress.

 

It isn't all or nothing. It isn't necessarily a giant imminent crisis. It is a careful evaluation of a possible troubling pattern.

 

I think because forums tend to be about giant pendulum swing and black and white thinking, your measured approach can be confusing?

 

But I get it. You are exploring and making an effort and evaluating all at the same time, and you are withholding judgment until you have put forth more effort and have more data.

[oldshirt]

It really sounds like all you desire is a vessel to relieve what sounds more like sex addiction, than a love language.

 

God forbid you were in an accident and became paralyzed and could no longer have sex, what would you do? Would you expect your wife to leave you because you could no longer have sex?

 

Do you actually love your wife?

 

In the post that you were referencing I was talking in general conceptual terms and not in a literal sense of my relationship with my wife specifically.

 

I love and honor and respect her and I treat her very well.

 

 

If I were in an accident today and were unable to perform sexually, I do not think she would leave me for the lack of sexual performance as that is clearly not a priority of hers anymore.

 

But she would leave me if I was unable to work and provide support for our family and unable to do things around the house and for the kids etc.

 

If I had an accident 10 years ago in her prime, she would've found someone else to replace my role in the bedroom even if she didn't technically divorce me per se.

[oldshirt]

I think that people are not quite understanding your position or strategy because things on forums tend to be so all or nothing.

 

Like the remark about wishing she had never married you. When people are very angry, they sometimes say things just to hurt. This was said several years ago during a bad time in the heat of an argument. It is not an accurate measure.

 

You are improving yourself and your actions as a husband while observing and taking the marital temperature. You are not halfway out the door with a separation agreement hidden under the mattress.

 

It isn't all or nothing. It isn't necessarily a giant imminent crisis. It is a careful evaluation of a possible troubling pattern.

 

I think because forums tend to be about giant pendulum swing and black and white thinking, your measured approach can be confusing?

 

But I get it. You are exploring and making an effort and evaluating all at the same time, and you are withholding judgment until you have put forth more effort and have more data.

 

 

You said it better than I have been able to.

 

Thank you.

[turnera]

Our chronic issue over the last few years and what I had to take accountability for in counseling is that she doesn't feel supported and appreciated by me and thinks I am just in it for sex. She doesn't feel appreciated and loved and supported nonsexually.

Your plan seems fair except for one thing. I assume you've done enough reading to understand that women have to be emotionally involved, typically, to WANT to have sex, to lust after you. In other words, they need their 'emotional world' in their head when they think of their relationship with you to be...well, great. Not a ton of resentments, emotional needs met. Not be perfect, but just knowing that you acknowledge the issues and ARE working on them. So she's telling you WHY she resents you (your Love Busters) and WHAT Emotional Needs she has that you aren't meeting.

 

NO woman is going to suddenly just wake up one morning and say 'you know what? who cares if he's hurting me and ignoring my issues with him? I want to jump his bones anyway!' Unless you are willing to honestly address for the above problem and change YOUR hand in it, you never will see any improvement; might as well just divorce now.

 

And if I had a dollar for every wife who's said 'you just want me for sex,' I'd be a millionaire. Have you honestly evaluated how you treat her in regards to sexual issues? Do you/did you grab at her? Push yourself on her? Push for sex and then just forget about something you promised to do afterward that mattered to her? Do you always make sure she gets off first? Do you help with chores so that she doesn't still have a ton of things to do at night and can relax? Do you listen to her talk about stuff or ask her about her feelings, wants, needs, aspirations, her day? Do you engage with her friends and her family? Do you ask her advice on things? Do you FOLLOW her advice on things? If having/getting sex comes up all the time and all the other stuff is just given lip service, women figure out pretty quick that they really ARE just wanted for the sex.

 

I'm not saying you're doing these things, I'm just asking you to be honest with yourself. If you WANT her to WANT you, pay attention to what makes HER happy.

 

I imagine this is a big part of it. I can totally see that her being uncomfortable with affectionate physical touch because she's afraid I'll try to pursue more.

And this is the EXACT response women have when their man is continuously pushing for sex. I sit on the opposite side of the couch because any time we're in touching distance, and we do touch, even if it's just legs, I KNOW he's going to push for sex that night. And I don't let him hug me because I know he'll try to cop a feel, squeeze something. Even after I've told him a hundred times it makes me feel like a hooker or something. So I protect myself from him. Sad, huh? All because he won't listen and respect my feelings. Same thing your wife is doing. Edited October 14, 2015 by turnera

[turnera]

I'm not a doctor (and that will be readily apparent here shortly) but my understanding is that with menopause, hormone changes, and age in general, the vagina loses "something." It loses elasticity, or tissue, or something and cannot handle the friction that it once did. And no amount of lube seems to be sufficient to make sex pleasurable.

I've been in menopause for 11 years and, while that part is true -it's more painful, as I suggested, that's not the important part of sex for many women. My H ALWAYS makes sure I get taken care of first. Always. For 35 years. And that doesn't require penetration at all. Once you've taken care of her, she'll be satisfied, feeling good, and the PIV won't be that much of an issue, unless it's truly incredibly painful (and that doesn't sound like your wife's problem).

[BlueIris]

Keep working on your “acts of service” and how to be a partner who turns her on, if you’re dissatisfied that she doesn’t seem turned on by you.

 

In your opening post, you said this:

“Be a more involved husband and father in the home. I admit to getting … lazy and … indulged in my little hobbies and past times. This includes time here on LS. I'll still check in, but it will be on my time, not family time.”

and then this:

“My indulgence in my pasttimes has always been her biggest complaint. I am going to try to take away as many complaints as possible.”

 

Just some food for thought. Being an equal and engaged co-parent and day-to-day teammate in raising children and caring for a home are not things you are doing for her. They are things that parents and spouses do naturally. So they aren’t “acts of service.” If you view them as acts of service for her rather than doing what you believe a parent and are already expected to do for children, family and home, you frame this as more like parent-child or supervisor-assistant (or sometime volunteer), a power struggle of individuals.

 

This is a speech that a famous coach gave about The Team:

 

"We want the Big Ten championship and we're gonna win it as a Team. They can throw out all those great backs, and great quarterbacks, and great defensive players, throughout the country and in this conference, but there's gonna be one Team that's gonna play solely as a Team. No man is more important than The Team. No coach is more important than The Team. The Team, The Team, The Team, and if we think that way, all of us, everything that you do, you take into consideration what effect does it have on my Team? Because you can go into professional football, you can go anywhere you want to play after you leave here. You will never play for a Team again. You'll play for a contract. You'll play for this. You'll play for that. You'll play for everything except the team, and think what a great thing it is to be a part of something that is, The Team. We're gonna win it. We're gonna win the championship again because we're gonna play as team, better than anybody else in this conference, we're gonna play together as a team. We're gonna believe in each other, we're not gonna criticize each other, we're not gonna talk about each other, we're gonna encourage each other. And when we play as a team, when the old season is over, you and I know, it's gonna be Michigan again, Michigan."

(It isn't really about U of Michigan in this context- lol)

[turnera]

I flirt with her. hit on her. Make little sexual innuendos and jokes, cop a feel, make sexually suggestive comments EVERY. SINGLE. DAY and I have done that daily since we have been a couple.

 

Every day? You grab at her every day? No WONDER she says what she says.

 

Would you talk like that in front of your mother? No? Then why doesn't your wife deserve as much respect? She's not a vessel, oldshirt. She's not a means to an end. She's a human being who is MUCH more than a place to put something in. Sheesh.

[oldshirt]

 

Every day? You grab at her every day? No WONDER she says what she says.

 

Would you talk like that in front of your mother? No? Then why doesn't your wife deserve as much respect? She's not a vessel, oldshirt. She's not a means to an end. She's a human being who is MUCH more than a place to put something in. Sheesh.

 

Realize when I write here, I write in a very blunt and graphic style.

 

I don't "grab" at her. I'll run my hand through her hair. I'll stoke her arm and/or hand. I'll rub her back or her shoulders. I'll stroke or rub her feet. And yes some times when I am behind her ill stoke her a$$ and tell her how hot she is.

 

Do I do more than my than my mother would be comfortable with on occasion? Yeah probably, but I don't grab or paw or force myself on her.

 

"Grab at her every day" is your words. Not mine.

[oldshirt]

Your plan seems fair except for one thing. I assume you've done enough reading to understand that women have to be emotionally involved, typically, to WANT to have sex, to lust after you. In other words, they need their 'emotional world' in their head when they think of their relationship with you to be...well, great. Not a ton of resentments, emotional needs met. Not be perfect, but just knowing that you acknowledge the issues and ARE working on them. So she's telling you WHY she resents you (your Love Busters) and WHAT Emotional Needs she has that you aren't meeting.

 

NO woman is going to suddenly just wake up one morning and say 'you know what? who cares if he's hurting me and ignoring my issues with him? I want to jump his bones anyway!' Unless you are willing to honestly address for the above problem and change YOUR hand in it, you never will see any improvement; might as well just divorce now.

 

And if I had a dollar for every wife who's said 'you just want me for sex,' I'd be a millionaire. Have you honestly evaluated how you treat her in regards to sexual issues? Do you/did you grab at her? Push yourself on her? Push for sex and then just forget about something you promised to do afterward that mattered to her? Do you always make sure she gets off first? Do you help with chores so that she doesn't still have a ton of things to do at night and can relax? Do you listen to her talk about stuff or ask her about her feelings, wants, needs, aspirations, her day? Do you engage with her friends and her family? Do you ask her advice on things? Do you FOLLOW her advice on things? If having/getting sex comes up all the time and all the other stuff is just given lip service, women figure out pretty quick that they really ARE just wanted for the sex.

 

I'm not saying you're doing these things, I'm just asking you to be honest with yourself. If you WANT her to WANT you, pay attention to what makes HER happy.

 

And this is the EXACT response women have when their man is continuously pushing for sex. I sit on the opposite side of the couch because any time we're in touching distance, and we do touch, even if it's just legs, I KNOW he's going to push for sex that night. And I don't let him hug me because I know he'll try to cop a feel, squeeze something. Even after I've told him a hundred times it makes me feel like a hooker or something. So I protect myself from him. Sad, huh? All because he won't listen and respect my feelings. Same thing your wife is doing.

 

I think I've actually done a pretty good job at those things the last few years.

 

I may have dropped the ball on a few of those things several years ago but some of that was what came out during our MC and I think I've made some big improvements in those areas since then.

 

 

 

And that is all what I am working on now. I think I'm doing ok but there is always room for improvement and I am working on improving it currently.

[SummerDreams]

I'm wondering about this for days now and I just have to say it. How does a woman who is so sexually free and active for years, more than normal people I mean (swinging and having lots of sex) become a woman who just goes the 180 and totally changes? Isn't it weird? I just look at it from the anthropological and societal view (maybe wrong spelling, sorry) and I'm curious. If this was a woman who her whole life had a medium or even low sex drive, I'd say, yes it seems logical that sex doesn't interest her that much anymore, not much change anyway. But going from "professional" to not at all, I find it weird and interesting. Of course I don't know the dynamic of your relationship over the years and I don't expect you to analyze it here for us. But I would suggest you listen to your wife. She complains that it's always about sex for you. She used to be like this as well, given the past she has in sexual experiences with you. What triggered the 180 change? Did she get sick of it? Did she realize your relationship is too much superficial and she misses some intellectual connection as well?

 

Oldshirt I don't want you to get offended please, but I get the feeling from you that you have already decided what you want to do, you feel strong about your decisions, about who you are, you are sure that you are right in every choice you make because you know your wife and your relationship and you don't consider our maybe different opinions. What are you searching for exactly here? Do you or don't you want some advise? And again, I'm not trying to offend you, I'm just trying to understand how we can help you in the best way possible.

[S2B]

Realize when I write here, I write in a very blunt and graphic style.

 

I don't "grab" at her. I'll run my hand through her hair. I'll stoke her arm and/or hand. I'll rub her back or her shoulders. I'll stroke or rub her feet. And yes some times when I am behind her ill stoke her a$$ and tell her how hot she is.

 

Do I do more than my than my mother would be comfortable with on occasion? Yeah probably, but I don't grab or paw or force myself on her.

 

"Grab at her every day" is your words. Not mine.

 

Whatever it has been in the past isn't working.

 

Doing opposite usually brings a different result.

 

It's useful at this juncture to DO everything opposite of what you're used to doing.

 

 

My prior question had to do with sex and intimacy. They are generally two separate things. I was asking if you get sex but no intimacy (feeling emotionally and mentally close) with her - is that enough for you?

 

 

And please quit generalizing about menopausal women - I'm past that stage and my libido is as high as ever and I didn't have rageful moments while going through it. Not all women shut down upon menopause. Since your wife blames this it's useful to go with her to the dr and see what would remedy it. I don't trust this is her issue.

Edited October 14, 2015 by S2B

[autumnnight]

 

Every day? You grab at her every day? No WONDER she says what she says.

 

Would you talk like that in front of your mother? No? Then why doesn't your wife deserve as much respect? She's not a vessel, oldshirt. She's not a means to an end. She's a human being who is MUCH more than a place to put something in. Sheesh.

 

Actually, this varies from woman to woman. I would have reveled in this if my hubby had done it.

[turnera]

"Grab at her every day" is your words. Not mine.

Actually, yours:

I flirt with her. hit on her. Make little sexual innuendos and jokes, cop a feel, make sexually suggestive comments EVERY. SINGLE. DAY and I have done that daily since we have been a couple.

 

But good to know that's not what you really meant.

Edited October 14, 2015 by turnera

[oldshirt]

I'm wondering about this for days now and I just have to say it. How does a woman who is so sexually free and active for years, more than normal people I mean (swinging and having lots of sex) become a woman who just goes the 180 and totally changes? Isn't it weird? I just look at it from the anthropological and societal view (maybe wrong spelling, sorry) and I'm curious. If this was a woman who her whole life had a medium or even low sex drive, I'd say, yes it seems logical that sex doesn't interest her that much anymore, not much change anyway. But going from "professional" to not at all, I find it weird and interesting. Of course I don't know the dynamic of your relationship over the years and I don't expect you to analyze it here for us. But I would suggest you listen to your wife. She complains that it's always about sex for you. She used to be like this as well, given the past she has in sexual experiences with you. What triggered the 180 change? Did she get sick of it? Did she realize your relationship is too much superficial and she misses some intellectual connection as well?

 

Oldshirt I don't want you to get offended please, but I get the feeling from you that you have already decided what you want to do, you feel strong about your decisions, about who you are, you are sure that you are right in every choice you make because you know your wife and your relationship and you don't consider our maybe different opinions. What are you searching for exactly here? Do you or don't you want some advise? And again, I'm not trying to offend you, I'm just trying to understand how we can help you in the best way possible.

 

A few points in no particular order -

 

- She did used to be very sexual. However she has also had a history of some significant mood swings due to hormonal issues. She was a hot and horny gal until she got pregnant and then it was like flipping a switch. Then in the last days of her pregnancies that switch got flipped on BIG TIME again and she was insatiable for a day or so. She even says if I didn't take care of her she would've headed out the house to find someone else to do the deed. Then once the babies were born the switch was flipped off again.

 

Her drive came back a year or so after the second was born and things were fine for a few more years, then she got a bad case of PMDD and was a raving lunatic and ended up getting a uterine ablation and put on some hormonal therapy temporarily and she quickly was Back to her regular self. After that she had very low testosterone and was treated with testosterone and she was a porn star while on that, but she was taken off after awhile. So she has always been sensitive to hormonal fluctuations.

 

- and she has usually been pretty responsive to me as well. If I am open and friendly and loving an supportive, she is usually pretty even-keeled and good to me as well. But if I get in a funk and get a little withdrawn and into my own world, she will often give me the cold shoulder as well.

 

- I have actually received some great advice and insight here and have incorporated much of the advice I have received into my current game plan. Yes I can be kinda bullheaded at times, but I've given things a lot of thought and will give things an honest try for awhile and see how things go and evaluate the response. If something is clearly not working, I will reevaluate and try something different.

[oldshirt]

Whatever it has been in the past isn't working.

 

Doing opposite usually brings a different result.

 

It's useful at this juncture to DO everything opposite of what you're used to doing.

 

 

My prior question had to do with sex and intimacy. They are generally two separate things. I was asking if you get sex but no intimacy (feeling emotionally and mentally close) with her - is that enough for you?

 

 

And please quit generalizing about menopausal women - I'm past that stage and my libido is as high as ever and I didn't have rageful moments while going through it. Not all women shut down upon menopause. Since your wife blames this it's useful to go with her to the dr and see what would remedy it. I don't trust this is her issue.

 

- Your point is taken that if something isn't working, do something different. However we have had some similar things occur in th past and through MC and through some sold effort on both of us things did improve. There for some of those things that have shown some improvement are worth implementing again.

 

- There are some things where I am taking an opposite approach to what I have been doing in recent times such as scaling the initiation and sexual overtures way back.

 

- to fully comprehend and answer your question is kind of hard for me as sexuality and intimacy are so closely related it's hard for me to differentiate the two. The short and simple answer is no, obviously I am not ok with just mechanical sex because I've been getting that. It's the passion and intimacy and closeness and enthusiasm etc that's been missing. It's kind of like asking if just getting the bun with the ketchup and mustard but not the hotdog is enough. The two need to come as a package deal for it to really count. Like I said a few pages back, I could have sex tonight if I made an earnest try for it. But it's the lack of participation and enthusiasm that is the issue.

 

- in regards to generalizations on menopause, no offense was ever intended but I think we can all assume that there will be exceptions to every rule and there will always be outliers in everything. Some times you just have to make sweeping generalizations in order to make conceptual points. I think we all understand that there will always be exceptions to every rule and varying degrees to every concept.

[oldshirt]

 

She complains that it's always about sex for you. She used to be like this as well, given the past she has in sexual experiences with you. What triggered the 180 change? Did she get sick of it? Did she realize your relationship is too much superficial and she misses some intellectual connection as well?

 

Oldshirt I.

 

These are some of the things I am working on and questions I am looking into myself.

[BetrayedH]

My $.02

 

You're doing fine.

 

If anything, I'd encourage you to have that difficult conversation before you make any final judgments. And I'd be wary of too much resentment building up in the interim if things aren't progressing as you might hope.

 

If I have any fears for you, it's that you're making this effort solo. True intimacy occurs when it's an honest and open partnership. I realize that having the conversation rarely, if ever, goes well. Personally, I think that's the consequence for her that you asked about in your other thread. When you flirt up and grind up other dudes in front of your husband while not being interested in your H at home, he's left hurt and needs to talk about it. That's a natural consequence.

 

I think it can wait a while, while you make these other legitimate efforts to do your part. I just wouldn't wait too long.