Hoping to stop the downhill plunge.... Update.

[oldshirt]

So Thurs night for some reason she tossed and turned all night and basically kept both of us up all night and she had to work 12 hrs Fri, so Fri night she said she hoped she could get some good sleep so I went to bed in the guest room and told the kids to sleep in and if anyone woke her up in the morning, they would be skinned alive.

 

 

I told her to txt me when she woke up in the morning and I wouldn't make any noise or bother her or let the kids bother her until I heard from her.

 

 

So after about 12 hours of sleep she txt me that she was awake. I went upstairs and we hung out and made some small talk about the plans for the day etc.

 

 

Then I got up to let the dog out and as I was coming back into the bedroom she told me to shut and lock the door. I asked if she wanted some "private time" and she said yes.

 

 

I shut and locked the door and slid into bed with her and she told me to take my clothes off.

 

 

I took that as a green light and game on.

 

 

We had some nice, gentle foreplay and she went down on me for awhile. Then I fingered her to an orgasm. Then I maneuvered around to go down on her and she said, "no come up here" and made a motion with her hands which I took as me getting on top so I entered her and we had some fairly slow and gentle intercourse for a few minutes.

 

 

She didn't grimace or make any faces or gestures that indicated she was in any pain or discomfort, but it certainly did not appear that I was rocking her world in any way either.

 

 

She said the earlier orgasm took care of her and that she wasn't going to be able to orgasm again (in the past she would freguently has several or even a couple handfuls of orgasms in a session)

 

 

Since she indicated she was done, I climbed off and layed back on the bed and she went down on me again and finished me orally.

 

 

It was nice. None of you would have applauded or anything like that if you had been there, but it was pleasant and no awkwardness or anything. I'll admit it's kind of frustrating and I feel like I have to hold myself back so much, but it wasn't awkward and nothing indicated she was having any actual pain or anything.

 

 

Regardless of it not being any super hot porn star sex, I will still score it as a solid initiation on her part. I didn't bring it up at all or indicate that I was in the mood or anything like that. It was her initiation.

 

 

It had been one week since she initiated the boobjob and 3 weeks since we last had intercourse (which was initiated by me) it's been 3 weeks since I stopped hitting on her or doing any kind of initiating.

 

 

What are your thoughts and impressions so far?????

[GorillaTheater]

What are your thoughts and impressions so far?????

 

I'm seeing a lot of positives here. She's trying. She's addressing things from a physical and medical standpoint.

 

I don't know whether you're happy with the pace, but other than that I think you have a lot to be happy about.

[Mr. Lucky]

It was nice. None of you would have applauded or anything like that if you had been there, but it was pleasant and no awkwardness or anything. I'll admit it's kind of frustrating and I feel like I have to hold myself back so much, but it wasn't awkward and nothing indicated she was having any actual pain or anything.

 

 

Regardless of it not being any super hot porn star sex, I will still score it as a solid initiation on her part. I didn't bring it up at all or indicate that I was in the mood or anything like that. It was her initiation.

 

If there's any offense in my post, please chalk it up to my struggle to articulate my thoughts.

 

In your relationship in general and in sex in particular, you seem like a "scorekeeper", to a certain amount focused on details, outcomes and expectations rather than journeys and intentions. While this trait (I'm somewhat the same way) serves us well in the business world, it can be an initiative killer in marriage, especially if your spouse knows herself she's wanting in some area. It's like we're an Olympic skating judge - "you nailed it in style but missed it in technique so sorry, only 7.5 for you".

 

I've had to learn to ask myself more simple questions - Did I enjoy? Did it feel good? Was it satisfying to see my partner's enjoyment? If the answers are yes, then that's a focus on what was present rather than what was missing. Not sure if you feel any of this applies to you and glad to hear things went well...

 

Mr. Lucky

[Ruby Slippers]

This all sounds like positive progress to me. I think you're totally doing the right thing by letting her initiate right now, not putting any pressure on her.

 

She's lamented her loss of drive, ordered the estrogen cream, and is starting to initiate. She's trying, she's doing the best she can right now.

 

I agree that you'll be better off focusing on all these positives for now, instead of comparing it to your gold standard from the past. Hopefully these little positives will keep adding up and you'll keep making good progress.

[turnera]

Sometimes it is almost impossible for a sex starved spouse to "take sex off the table." Think about it....someone has been starving in the desert for 3 weeks, and you set out a whole table of food but tell them, "For the next week, you may only have one grape a day, and you shouldn't want anything else off the table."

So what do you do? Force yourself on your spouse? That's rape.

[turnera]

oldshirt, this is amazing news. Exactly right. You're making it safe for her, you're showing her you care for her more than just as a sex object, and you're following her lead so as to allow her to feel more confident.

 

The only thing that caught my eye was her comment about her body. You know how men talk about 'size' (or at least they did in junior high)? Well, women often care a LOT about their looks; it's how we 'get the guy,' so to speak. So when we start aging and shifting and drooping...we may worry that we are not worthy enough. Don't forget to bring in conversations about how you're still wowed by her body and you LOVE how it's aging right along with YOUR body's aging and you like being at this stage in your life. That will help her feel more secure and more lustful.

[autumnnight]

So what do you do? Force yourself on your spouse? That's rape.

 

I am actually surprised this is even a question. Did I indicate I believed in rape?

 

What I am saying is that after a certain point, if the sex-refusing spouse is not going to attempt to meet the starving spouse halfway, then expecting the starving spouse to stay and continue to starve is not reasonable. And I wouldn't call a refusing spouse offering their starving spouse crumbs noble. I would call it torture....but that is probably because I've been there.

 

In the case where there is no solution...then IMO the solution is divorce.

[OldRover]

OldShirt,

 

I'm happy for you... that was a GREAT time and a monumental accomplishment. Meaning that there was good intentions and effort from both of you.

 

Now, for an encore.... give her a really nice massage tonight. Use some nice massage oil. If you don't know good massage technique, just make it a good feeling rub, and go learn some massage techniques, they work very well for most people.

 

Best to you, and hope things progress well.

[turnera]

I am actually surprised this is even a question. Did I indicate I believed in rape?

 

What I am saying is that after a certain point, if the sex-refusing spouse is not going to attempt to meet the starving spouse halfway, then expecting the starving spouse to stay and continue to starve is not reasonable. And I wouldn't call a refusing spouse offering their starving spouse crumbs noble. I would call it torture....but that is probably because I've been there.

 

In the case where there is no solution...then IMO the solution is divorce.

The way it was written, it sounded like you were saying the man couldn't just NOT try to have sex with her; it didn't say anything about divorce.

 

And in many cases, the woman just wants to know that the man CAN keep his hands off her for awhile, so she's not just a vessel to him. If that happens, her heart can warm back up for him and then she may be more willing and enthusiastic. But if he can't even go one day without touching? Not likely.

[autumnnight]

The way it was written, it sounded like you were saying the man couldn't just NOT try to have sex with her.

 

And in many cases, the woman just wants to know that the man CAN keep his hands off her for awhile, so she's not just a vessel to him. If that happens, her heart can warm back up for him and then she may be more willing and enthusiastic. But if he can't even go one day without touching? Not likely.

 

That would make sense.

 

Since touch/affection is my primary love language, it is hard to wrap my mind around not wanting to be touched. But my oldest, for example, is very leery of being touched, even by family. I could see her needing her hubby to be hands-off if she was feeling overwhelmed. Sometimes I have to be reminded that not everyone is in my shoes.

[xxoo]

This all sounds like positive progress to me. I think you're totally doing the right thing by letting her initiate right now, not putting any pressure on her.

 

She's lamented her loss of drive, ordered the estrogen cream, and is starting to initiate. She's trying, she's doing the best she can right now.

 

I agree that you'll be better off focusing on all these positives for now, instead of comparing it to your gold standard from the past. Hopefully these little positives will keep adding up and you'll keep making good progress.

 

I agree.

 

Focus on the positive. You have a loving, caring wife who concerns herself with connecting with you sexually. You are a lucky man, and have much to be thankful for. A loving wife, great kids, intact family--you're rich!

[OldRover]

The way it was written, it sounded like you were saying the man couldn't just NOT try to have sex with her; it didn't say anything about divorce.

 

And in many cases, the woman just wants to know that the man CAN keep his hands off her for awhile, so she's not just a vessel to him. If that happens, her heart can warm back up for him and then she may be more willing and enthusiastic. But if he can't even go one day without touching? Not likely.

 

I'm in the same boat as AutumnNight..... I'm a touch person.... and I don't touch her every day, I touch her several times per day. But I try to make it good for her every time. Might be a shoulder rub, neck rub, hug, hand hold, grab her leg... or enough grabbing so we end up in bed. However, it never ends in bed unless we both want that.

 

But, we full fill both of our love languages.

 

I hope Old Shirt fills his and her love languages, too. It works.

[turnera]

I'm in the same boat as AutumnNight..... I'm a touch person.... and I don't touch her every day, I touch her several times per day. But I try to make it good for her every time. Might be a shoulder rub, neck rub, hug, hand hold, grab her leg... or enough grabbing so we end up in bed. However, it never ends in bed unless we both want that.

 

But, we full fill both of our love languages.

 

I hope Old Shirt fills his and her love languages, too. It works.

lol, my love language is a nice home. I don't mean fancy, I mean well taken care of. Growing up, after my dad left, our house fell apart and my mom couldn't afford to take care of anything; she could barely afford food. It was one long childhood of humiliations. And just my luck, taking care of the house (if it's ME asking for it) is the ONE thing my H has never wanted to do. No woman would be the boss of him!

 

As Harley says, your top needs (love languages) vary according to the state of your marriage. So domestic security has been my #1 need for the full 35 years of my marriage.

 

Of course, if he were to suddenly wake up and care about it, my top needs would shift. And, of course, my love for and desire for him would skyrocket.

[Realist3]

tmi ten chara...

[oldshirt]

Ok so time for another update. It's been a few weeks since I started this little endeavor so I thought I'd share what's happened over the last week or two and talk a little about what's coming up.

 

For starters I've hit the gym harder and more consistently in the last few weeks than I have the last few years. Cleaned up the diet to the point I haven't had any junk or processed food at all for several days which is a record for me. I am down a few lbs and while I'm technically still on the same belt notch, it is noticeably looser and I should be on the next notch by this time next week.

 

I have also started tanning which she finally noticed and commented on last night.

 

I haven't initiate or brought up anything sexual since the start. We havent had any sexual encounters since she initiated last Sat, but if she ever reached out for a hug or smack or anything I have always responded without hesitation.

 

Her demeanor has been pleasant and hasn't seemed anxious or defensive.

 

Ok so here is what's coming up. Tomorrow we will celebrate our 20th anniversary. I have reserved a theme room with an in room Jacuzzi at a local hotel and have planned for a nice sit down lunch at a fine dining restaurant. I have told her a very vague General plan of the day but the specifics are to be a surprise.

 

She has seemed to be looking forward to our day together and when she asked what she needs to do to prepare I told her to dress up for a nice restaurants and to pack a swimsuit, some wine and something "slinky" for after lunch.

 

She has not seemed to protest any of this and in fact reminded me that one of our anniversary traditions is to go to an adult bookstore to purchase new sex toys or lubes etc.

 

I took that as a positive sign. :-)

 

 

More to come soon

....

[turnera]

Definitely positive!

[oldshirt]

So tomorrow I will be seductive and taking the lead and seeing how that goes.

I will be initiating or at least doing my best to initiate.

 

Assuming we do make love (which isn't guarenteed and I'll be as calm and outcome independent as possible if we don't) the one thing I will try to address is the afterplay which I described in my "afterplay" thread in the sexuality section.

 

I think tomorrow will reveal some signs as to where things are. If we have some good romantic and sexy time on this special occasion without any awkwardness or conflict, that will be telling.

 

If she stalls and fiddlefarts around and is hamstrung by a myriad of distractions and other things that have to be done instead, that will be even more telling.

 

Regardless of which way the pendulum swings, I will have a lot more insight by Wednesday.

[OldRover]

You seem to contradict yourself...

 

You state that you have no expectations yet you're blatantly 'planning' your sex with her for the anniversary.

 

Just saying... Your expectation is sex. Looks like she will comply... As you've mapped out the day for her.

 

 

I hope you get what you expect.

 

Good point, but it still may be positive without the sex. But a real wonderful passionate love session can't hurt much, and is VERY positive.

[oldshirt]

You seem to contradict yourself...

 

You state that you have no expectations yet you're blatantly 'planning' your sex with her for the anniversary.

 

Just saying... Your expectation is sex. Looks like she will comply... As you've mapped out the day for her.

 

 

I hope you get what you expect.

 

I am optimistic and hopeful.

 

Remember as I said in the beginning of this thread, this is not a case of a sexless marriage. She rarely rejects me. We would have sex on average of every week. We would have sex when I made a definite initiation, it was just the quality leaves a bit to be desired.

 

I haven't initiated in approx 4 weeks. She initiated an encounter last weekend and initiated it between the boobs but not intercourse the weekend before that.

 

So I have reason to be hopeful for tomorrow. but if she balks or stalls or makes any kind of hard no, I have back up plans.

 

So how about if I word it that I do expect some kind sexual contact will occur, but I recognize the possibility that it may not. It that a better way to put it without seeming to contradict myself?

[turnera]

S2B, normally I'd agree with you, but this IS an anniversary event, and people generally want to ramp things up on such dates.

[qubist]

first of all happy anniversary!!

the thing that I like the most about your "experiment" is it made you look out for yourself, diet, exercise, at least you are a better man now before you tried this

[DKT3]

Yes, absolutely!

 

I'm just pointing out how OS continues to say "I won't pressure her, I'll let her lead, I have no expectations" - yet this IS planned and certainly has expectations attached.

 

The other thing that seems odd to me, I know OS wants the sex - seems to also want intimacy - but hasn't yet described how those two become intertwined within the M.

 

Intimacy is nice. Sex is nice. OP is looking for both but unable to determine what intimacy looks like for him.

 

When he says he wants sex - but doesn't get that he complains. Then he gets sex and complains that it doesn't include the intimacy.

 

When do the complaints stop? What is it you really want?

 

Whatever that is be clear about what you want and need. Staying silent and expecting your wife to read your mind isn't right.

 

It actually looks like you just want reasons to be mad at her. Where does it end? When you get sex? When you get intimacy? When you get both?

 

I can't tell - please clarify because I feel like you keep changing the rules here for yourself.

 

First I have to admit this has never been a problem for me. Lovin has a slightly higher sex drive and rarely has turned me down throughout our 25+ year history, so take my opinion with that in mind.

 

Oldshirt I think you have a great handle on this situation, and if I were ever in something similar I would follow this example.

 

 

S2B, I don't see an issue with what he is doing or his expectations. He has tried to communicate to her about what he NEEDS. I don't think she gets it because the walls come up making her less open to accept his views or feelings on the subject. It seems to me he simply wants what they had, its not like he is asking to rewrite the book.

 

No one (or very few of us) wants emotionless sex with our spouses. That is the element that makes it great. No one wants to feel like they have contaminated they spouse, watching them rush off to clean themselves the second the act is over as if he injected her with some radioactive waste.

 

Os, keep your head up I think your doing great.

[oldshirt]

Yes, absolutely!

 

I'm just pointing out how OS continues to say "I won't pressure her, I'll let her lead, I have no expectations" - yet this IS planned and certainly has expectations attached.

 

The other thing that seems odd to me, I know OS wants the sex - seems to also want intimacy - but hasn't yet described how those two become intertwined within the M.

 

Intimacy is nice. Sex is nice. OP is looking for both but unable to determine what intimacy looks like for him.

 

When he says he wants sex - but doesn't get that he complains. Then he gets sex and complains that it doesn't include the intimacy.

 

When do the complaints stop? What is it you really want?

 

Whatever that is be clear about what you want and need. Staying silent and expecting your wife to read your mind isn't right.

 

It actually looks like you just want reasons to be mad at her. Where does it end? When you get sex? When you get intimacy? When you get both?

 

I can't tell - please clarify because I feel like you keep changing the rules here for yourself.

 

I'm not sure I can say or do anything that will earn your blessings. We may simply be at an impasse here.

 

In regards to me initiating sexual activities on my 20th anniversary, sorry but I reserve the right to try to initiate sex with my wife whenever I want.

She has the right to initiate with me whenever she wants. That ain't ever gonna change.

 

I opted to suspend any sexual overtures or initiations for awhile to work on other areas of myself and our relationship before addressing the sexual topics. This was so as to not pressure her sexually or make her feel that everything I was doing was just about getting more sex.

 

I knew that some people would not agree with that strategy and I spent several pages trying to explain my rationale. Some still disagree. That's ok, everyone is entitled to their opinion.

 

When I said I would suspend sexual initiation for awhile, I never meant to imply that I never would ever again. I reserve the right to try to give her some lovins whenever I want.

 

I want to tomorrow and so I will. She has the right to either go for it and get loved up well or she has the right to blow me off completely and make it just another day.

 

Either way will provide insight into our dynamics.

[oldshirt]

 

 

He has tried to communicate to her about what he NEEDS. I don't think she gets it because the walls come up making her less open to accept his views or feelings on the subject.

 

 

.

 

Yes this is exactly it. I have tried to address a variety of things but her walls go up and all she thinks is that I am trying to get more sex and she doesn't hear what I'm actually saying.

 

I'm trying to take the sexual aspect out of the equation for awhile so she may be more apt to open her ears and hear what I'm actually saying.

 

However I am going to try to make our 20th as nice and fun and romantic and sexy as possible.

 

If anyone has an issue with that, too bad so sad.

[pteromom]

Good luck tomorrow. Hope it goes well.