Building a marriage from scratch

[Yukiko]

Hi all, I was a little hesitant to post here after asking for advice on another site and being pretty much berated and told I must have psychological problems because of my marriage situation . So while honesty is very much appreciated, please go easy on me if possible. I found this site while googling for Marriage Builders reviews, and both that one and this seem to have people who are genuinely trying to be helpful, or at least that's what I'm hoping is the case.

Basically my husband and I have been married for 4 years, but I don't think we were ever actually in love. We certainly liked eachother when we met, and our relationship kind of developed because of our circumstances of both needing a flatmate and moving in together very quickly. We broke up many times but eventually got married, because we both felt that we wouldn't meet anyone else, and wanted to start a family. Things have always been rocky and we have never really been happily married, even our wedding day was a bit sad because it was just a registry wedding and we were not in love on that day. Anyway, here we are 4 years later and not much has changed, though I believe we have learned to argue better, and while neither of us is happy, it is not quite as tumultuous as it once was. Most people's advice is just to cut our losses and go find other people who will make us happy, but we have a 3yr old and a very messy financial situation, and would both prefer to stay together if possible. But I can't go on living without love, so I am wanting to see if it's possible to spark love between us. I would love to know if anyone else has done this, and what people think of the Marriage Builders plan in general, as I want to try it but there is a lot of embarassment there over trying to make my husband love me and vice versa. I feel like a complete loser to be honest and need to somehow let go of the self consciousness I feel over what we would like to do (learn to love one another). Anyway, I just wanted to open up a dialogue with some (hopefully) understanding people and maybe get some support or advice in my endeavours. Thanks for reading.

[Mr. Lucky]

The irony is that you're at a place many conventionally "married for love" folks find themselves - tied by money, marriage and family to someone you're not sure how you feel about.

 

So yes, you can "grow" feelings for the father of your child. Easy to do? No, for a whole lot of reasons I'm sure many will be eager to point out.

 

Would be better if your furnished more detail. Do you have an active sexual relationship? What do you argue about? Why the unhappiness on both sides?

 

Mr. Lucky

[T-16bullseyeWompRat]

It is very possible. I know a Romani family who were arranged to be married. They have been together a long time. Their daughter is set to be married to a boy from another Romani family. I believe when she turns 16. To me this sounds so crazy, but it is part of their culture and its been around for ages. Anyway, the parents love each other very much. It obviously doesn't start out with love. I'm sure it takes lots of work, but it is possible.

[pondhawk]

I have not tried it myself, but look up the book: The Love Dare.

 

It has activities to do even if your spouse isn't receptive. I've heard it has changed lives.

 

Best wishes

[Yukiko]

Thanks for the book suggestion, I'll look it up.

 

An arranged marriage has the advantage of the parents carefully selecting a partner they believe you will be compatible with, but it's still the thing that gives me hope.

 

As for more detail, I'm happy to share, I just don't want to bore anyone to death. I think my husband is depressed, so that makes it hard to completely understand his unhappiness with the marriage, and he finds communication very difficult. I kind of can't really tell if we were ever in love, right at the very very beginning, and him shutting himself off to me has caused this enormous rift between us, or if it was just that "new person" lust and never love at all. There was a pretty dramatic shift in his behaviour towards me the day we moved in together, but he claims it was because of our other flat mate, and his extreme social anxiety. He pretty much stopped talking to me that day and while we still went out together and had sex for a while, it never went back to how it was. This was incredibly early on in the relationship, a couple of months perhaps? I would say my biggest problem with him is that he doesn't talk to me enough, doesn't connect with me. He is actually better now than he was, but for a while there he was like a zombie, it was infuriating. Where we live is isolated and I don't drive so I am incredibly lonely and desperate for human companionship. He goes to work everyday but hates to socialise so we have the problem of him coming home and just wanting to be left alone, and me desperate for his attention. His biggest problem with me is possibly that I don't just leave things be, if I have a problem with something that he's doing I will hassle him about it. We are quite incompatible personality wise but seem to have fairly well aligned values so we have that going for us. We have absolutely no sex life whatsoever at the moment, and have been intimate perhaps 4 times in the past 4 years. We both want this to change, but his anti-depressant meds make it hard for him to have a full sex life, and while I crave intimacy, I have no desire for him while we are so emotionally detached from one another. We are also both overweight, me a little and him a lot, so this doesn't help. I don't want to go on and on, but if there is anything you want to know, please ask, I am so happy to have people to be able to talk to about this.

[OldRover]

Thanks for the book suggestion, I'll look it up.

 

An arranged marriage has the advantage of the parents carefully selecting a partner they believe you will be compatible with, but it's still the thing that gives me hope.

 

As for more detail, I'm happy to share, I just don't want to bore anyone to death. I think my husband is depressed, so that makes it hard to completely understand his unhappiness with the marriage, and he finds communication very difficult. I kind of can't really tell if we were ever in love, right at the very very beginning, and him shutting himself off to me has caused this enormous rift between us, or if it was just that "new person" lust and never love at all. There was a pretty dramatic shift in his behaviour towards me the day we moved in together, but he claims it was because of our other flat mate, and his extreme social anxiety. He pretty much stopped talking to me that day and while we still went out together and had sex for a while, it never went back to how it was. This was incredibly early on in the relationship, a couple of months perhaps? I would say my biggest problem with him is that he doesn't talk to me enough, doesn't connect with me. He is actually better now than he was, but for a while there he was like a zombie, it was infuriating. Where we live is isolated and I don't drive so I am incredibly lonely and desperate for human companionship. He goes to work everyday but hates to socialise so we have the problem of him coming home and just wanting to be left alone, and me desperate for his attention. His biggest problem with me is possibly that I don't just leave things be, if I have a problem with something that he's doing I will hassle him about it. We are quite incompatible personality wise but seem to have fairly well aligned values so we have that going for us. We have absolutely no sex life whatsoever at the moment, and have been intimate perhaps 4 times in the past 4 years. We both want this to change, but his anti-depressant meds make it hard for him to have a full sex life, and while I crave intimacy, I have no desire for him while we are so emotionally detached from one another. We are also both overweight, me a little and him a lot, so this doesn't help. I don't want to go on and on, but if there is anything you want to know, please ask, I am so happy to have people to be able to talk to about this.

 

Yes, you can turn this around.

 

First, get him a better Dr for his antidepressant meds. There are ones that don't affect the sex as much or at all, and work. But will take some effort finding what works. There are tests for this. The SSRI, or selective serotonin reuptake inhibitor ones are the worst.

 

Second, get some help on intimacy... things you can both do to promote it and make it fun. There's tons out there. Work on it, it will help.

 

Third, you both need to clearly make up your minds that you can make it work. There's lots of things you can do to improve your relationship, and lots of good help sources. Find ones that work for you. It will take some time, but worth it. A good start is the book Five Love Languages.... look it up, there's a site for it, and have him READ it to you.

[Mr. Lucky]

Third, you both need to clearly make up your minds that you can make it work.

 

Well said, had the same thought. Right now you're little more than roommates and neither seems committed to do the work necessary to build a real marriage. If you're waiting for the love fairy to fly by and fix things, you'll be stuck in place for another 4 years.

 

Why no counseling together? A good therapist could help you agree on baby steps towards fixing things. With a 3-year old together, much at stake...

 

Mr. Lucky

[T-16bullseyeWompRat]

My wife does something similar to you in that she likes to "pick scabs" is what I call it. If Im hurting, or upset about something, I like to deal with it in my own way, on my own time. I can be a real jerk when im upset. So I tend to shut down from others, because I know full well I'll more then likely say something I dont mean, or just become a negative nancy in general (its rare i get upset about anything, im very easy going). She can't stand it that I internalize small issues and wait for my negative feelings to pass. Mostly because she doesnt feel she is in control of the situation. So she just picks at the issue, and picks and picks and picks at it some more. It drives me insane! Eventually this leads to a fight. It certainly doesnt help me get over whatever it is im upset about. The thing is, if she would just let me heal the way I heal, and stop forcing the issue, ill forget in a couple days what I was upset about in the first place. But instead she has to have it on her terms. Sometimes I'm over an issue I had, and will be over it for a while, like a week or longer. Its completely gone from my mind. And she will bring it back up! Just reopen a wound that was completely forgotten about. Has he ever said these words to you "im not allowed to be upset"? I can tell you from experience this will drive him away from you. He will isolate more and more with that approach. You do it to him because you care about him and his happiness, and you want instant resolution to every issue because that is how YOU move forward. I get it, I really do. But you need to understand that is just not the way he heals. To force him to heal your way isnt actually allowing the healing to take place. Its picking scabs. He will eventually resort to telling you what he thinks you want to hear just to get you to leave him alone about it, instead of being honest with you. This will lead to resentment on his end, and a lack of trust on yours because you will know he is not being fully open and honest with you when he tells you what you want to hear. You wont know weather to believe him or not when he tells you the actual truth, because you think he is only saying what he thinks you want to hear.

 

I recommend you get some books on communication skills asap. You mentioned you have a hard time with this. Loving relationships are really hard work with excellent communication skills. They are damn near impossible with poor communication.

 

Also there is something very powerful in being strong on your own. Having your own life and friends and hobbies. Being the best you that you can be for NOBODY but yourself. These people are absolutely magnetic to everyone around them. You will gain so much respect, admiration, and love just by simply working on and becoming the best version of you that you can be. So while you focus a lot of your energy on your relationship, do take a little time to focus on yourself as well. It will work wonders for you and your relationship.

[readynow]

I would say my biggest problem with him is that he doesn't talk to me enough, doesn't connect with me. He is actually better now than he was, but for a while there he was like a zombie, it was infuriating. Where we live is isolated and I don't drive so I am incredibly lonely and desperate for human companionship. He goes to work everyday but hates to socialise so we have the problem of him coming home and just wanting to be left alone, and me desperate for his attention.

 

I am so happy to have people to be able to talk to about this.

 

Here's the problem that needs solving. You are putting all your needs for companionship on him. That's too much to place on one person. Do you not work? If not, can you find a job that takes you out of the house every day? What about volunteering? What about a course in town? Something else you can focus on?

 

If you can get out every and associate with other people, you won't be as desperate as you feel now and you can be civil and leave him be while he wants to be alone.

 

It will be difficult to get him wanting to relate more when you're sitting home waiting every day. Are you able to do any of the above?

 

PS, please break your future post into readable blocks

[Yukiko]

Well said, had the same thought. Right now you're little more than roommates and neither seems committed to do the work necessary to build a real marriage. If you're waiting for the love fairy to fly by and fix things, you'll be stuck in place for another 4 years.

 

Why no counseling together? A good therapist could help you agree on baby steps towards fixing things. With a 3-year old together, much at stake...

 

Mr. Lucky

 

Just curious why you think neither of us is doing any work to improve the marriage? I often feel that he is doing nothing to improve things, but I also realise that the things he has to do are very hard for him, and require a lot more effort from him than they would from me (for example seeing a doctor or counsellor is no big deal for me, I would just book it and go, but because of his social anxiety issues it's very hard for him). I am very eager to do whatever is necessary to fix things between us, but I admit I get discouraged pretty much instantaneously if I make an effort and feel that he is throwing it back in my face. I struggle with feeling rejected by him and it takes me a while to get back up and try again. Anyway, I just wanted to know if it was a general idea you had that we were probably not doing anything, because things had been bad for so long, or if it was because of something I said. I am very keen for any insight and advice but also weary of any knee-jerk reactions as I think people tend to generalise and stereotype without really knowing any of the details. And of course I realise you can only go on the info you have, and that comes from me.

[Yukiko]

We have had some counselling, a few years ago, but it ended when we moved towns and my husband said he felt it wasn't helping and that he was only saying what the counsellor wanted him to say (he had most sessions on his own). I thought it was helping, though I can understand him saying that because she was pretty specific with what she was trying to lead us to, and one session was particuarly odd and uncomfortable where she was obviously wanting me to come to some kind of conclusion and say something and I had no idea what it was. She didn't believe me but I genuinely had no idea what it was she was getting at and she wouldn't just tell me.

 

On the weekend he asked what we need to do to get in to see a counsellor so he knows we need to do it, but he swings between agreeing to go and outright refusing. That's the whole reason he's on Prozac this time around (has been on and off a few differrent antidepressants), to get his anxiety under control enough that he can talk to a counsellor. But then lately he has been trying to cut down his Prozac because he can't feel anything, but we still haven't been to see someone! It seems he agrees to things a lot but then just won't follow through with them. Like he agrees just to get me off his back. But it's not one little thing, it's our marriage that is at stake.

[Yukiko]

My wife does something similar to you in that she likes to "pick scabs" is what I call it. If Im hurting, or upset about something, I like to deal with it in my own way, on my own time. I can be a real jerk when im upset. So I tend to shut down from others, because I know full well I'll more then likely say something I dont mean, or just become a negative nancy in general (its rare i get upset about anything, im very easy going). She can't stand it that I internalize small issues and wait for my negative feelings to pass. Mostly because she doesnt feel she is in control of the situation. So she just picks at the issue, and picks and picks and picks at it some more. It drives me insane! Eventually this leads to a fight. It certainly doesnt help me get over whatever it is im upset about. The thing is, if she would just let me heal the way I heal, and stop forcing the issue, ill forget in a couple days what I was upset about in the first place. But instead she has to have it on her terms. Sometimes I'm over an issue I had, and will be over it for a while, like a week or longer. Its completely gone from my mind. And she will bring it back up! Just reopen a wound that was completely forgotten about. Has he ever said these words to you "im not allowed to be upset"? I can tell you from experience this will drive him away from you. He will isolate more and more with that approach. You do it to him because you care about him and his happiness, and you want instant resolution to every issue because that is how YOU move forward. I get it, I really do. But you need to understand that is just not the way he heals. To force him to heal your way isnt actually allowing the healing to take place. Its picking scabs. He will eventually resort to telling you what he thinks you want to hear just to get you to leave him alone about it, instead of being honest with you. This will lead to resentment on his end, and a lack of trust on yours because you will know he is not being fully open and honest with you when he tells you what you want to hear. You wont know weather to believe him or not when he tells you the actual truth, because you think he is only saying what he thinks you want to hear.

 

I recommend you get some books on communication skills asap. You mentioned you have a hard time with this. Loving relationships are really hard work with excellent communication skills. They are damn near impossible with poor communication.

 

Also there is something very powerful in being strong on your own. Having your own life and friends and hobbies. Being the best you that you can be for NOBODY but yourself. These people are absolutely magnetic to everyone around them. You will gain so much respect, admiration, and love just by simply working on and becoming the best version of you that you can be. So while you focus a lot of your energy on your relationship, do take a little time to focus on yourself as well. It will work wonders for you and your relationship.

 

I can relate to a lot of this. I don't think I pick scabs necessarily, as I don't *think* I bring up things that are dead and burried, but the last psychologist I saw told me about this cycle my husband and I were in, where he would retreat and I woud attack, and that would make him retreat more and me attack more, and the only way to break that cycle is for both of us to try to go against our instincts and meet in the middle (baby step by baby step). I would rather be yelled at in an argument than ignored, and I definitely want to just get it all out and sorted and be done with it, wheras he would like to just ignore it until it goes away. But I don't believe things just "go away", particularly if it's a behaviour that will reoccur, you need to deal with it and solve the problem to stop it happening again. I don't think I harass him about his own personal stuff, only things that affect me directly (ie spending too much money etc). I have been trying to back off a lot lately though, and I do actually find in some cases he is WAY more receptive to me and doing things the way I want if I don't say anything judgemental (eg when he says he's spent too much money and I don't berate him, later that day he might just hand over his card without me asking for it).

 

I do a lot of "self improvement" type stuff I guess you'd call it, I like to learn new things and exercise, I feel very restless when I'm not improving something, whether that's organising the office or doing a face mask or whatever, it doesn't really matter what it is, I just like to be doing SOMETHING that I feel is a step forward.

[Yukiko]

Sorry for all of the posts, and sorry for my previous posts the weren't broken into readable paragraphs, I will try to keep that in mind in future.

 

I just wanted to update on the last few days. It has been SO up and down, like always I guess, where in the morning I think this is going to be good, we can do this, I can totally see this working, and by the evening I just want a divorce immediately and feel like an idiot for thinking it could ever get better. But the difference these days I guess is that those bad periods are shorter, wheras a few years ago, those periods of feeling the realtionship was dead would last for days or weeks. I think this is an indication that we are communicating better.

 

I forgot to address the previous post about me relying on him for all of my social needs, this is so so true and I am very aware of it, I know there is no way he can possibly provide that for me, and I am really keen to have a social circle, it's just that I can't drive yet (but I am having lessons!). As soon as I can drive I will be out of the house every second day probably, and this to be honest is actually probably the biggest thing I can personally do to improve things between us, and I'm the only person who can make it happen. Unfortunately the only time I can have a lesson is Saturdays and he has either been working Saturdays or we've had things to attend in another town, so it's been a pretty slow process, but I will take the initiative to practice driving when we go into town to shop. He is always happy for me to drive, I'm just a little fearful driving without dual controls.

[T-16bullseyeWompRat]

Sorry for all of the posts, and sorry for my previous posts the weren't broken into readable paragraphs, I will try to keep that in mind in future.

 

I just wanted to update on the last few days. It has been SO up and down, like always I guess, where in the morning I think this is going to be good, we can do this, I can totally see this working, and by the evening I just want a divorce immediately and feel like an idiot for thinking it could ever get better. But the difference these days I guess is that those bad periods are shorter, wheras a few years ago, those periods of feeling the realtionship was dead would last for days or weeks. I think this is an indication that we are communicating better.

 

I forgot to address the previous post about me relying on him for all of my social needs, this is so so true and I am very aware of it, I know there is no way he can possibly provide that for me, and I am really keen to have a social circle, it's just that I can't drive yet (but I am having lessons!). As soon as I can drive I will be out of the house every second day probably, and this to be honest is actually probably the biggest thing I can personally do to improve things between us, and I'm the only person who can make it happen. Unfortunately the only time I can have a lesson is Saturdays and he has either been working Saturdays or we've had things to attend in another town, so it's been a pretty slow process, but I will take the initiative to practice driving when we go into town to shop. He is always happy for me to drive, I'm just a little fearful driving without dual controls.

 

I'll give you another example from my life. My wife is a teacher. Every summer is tough on us. Main reason, she is home with the kids allllll theeeeee tiiiime. Its tough as well because she doesn't have a bunch of friends outside of work. So for her, she is dying for some adult interaction after spending all day with the kids. I however work in sales, and some days I'm just plain talked out when I get off of work. I want to hug and kiss everyone, make sure they had a good day and check on them, then I want to just check the hell out for a couple hours. Get in some me time. Of course this isn't every day, and when she's back at work I get more me time on my days off so I'm rested and refreshed and more likely to want to engage in conversation with my wife and play with the kids and do all that fun stuff. So she feels I disconnect more in the summer, which I don't see as the case. She just happens to be around while I'm trying to get in some much needed me time.

 

When you stop being around 100% of the time, he will naturally want to spend more time with you when you are around.

 

Edit: having said that I do try to make a conscious effort to get her some time to herself so she doesn't have to be with the kids all day every day in the summer. We also always take a week vacation together just us no kids to get in some quality time. There does need to be some effort on his end. Still we typically argue a little more in the summer. Its just because we have less time apart I think.

Edited October 13, 2015 by T-16bullseyeWompRat

[Yukiko]

I'll give you another example from my life. My wife is a teacher. Every summer is tough on us. Main reason, she is home with the kids allllll theeeeee tiiiime. Its tough as well because she doesn't have a bunch of friends outside of work. So for her, she is dying for some adult interaction after spending all day with the kids. I however work in sales, and some days I'm just plain talked out when I get off of work. I want to hug and kiss everyone, make sure they had a good day and check on them, then I want to just check the hell out for a couple hours. Get in some me time. Of course this isn't every day, and when she's back at work I get more me time on my days off so I'm rested and refreshed and more likely to want to engage in conversation with my wife and play with the kids and do all that fun stuff. So she feels I disconnect more in the summer, which I don't see as the case. She just happens to be around while I'm trying to get in some much needed me time.

 

When you stop being around 100% of the time, he will naturally want to spend more time with you when you are around.

 

Yep, and I am home 98% of the time, not just summers! Things also tend to flare up badly once a month because (sorry to those who are not comfortable talking about this kind of thing) when I ovulate I get super needy for extra attention and become very aware of his lack of conversation or eye contact etc. I always warn him in advance that I'm in need of a little attention from him for a couple of days, but he seems to retreat even more. This is something we are both working on (me trying to balance my hormones and him trying to be more attentive). And finding a way for me to get out of the house alone for a couple of hours, as I never get a break from our 3yr old and seem to really need it at that time of the month also.

[T-16bullseyeWompRat]

Yep, and I am home 98% of the time, not just summers! Things also tend to flare up badly once a month because (sorry to those who are not comfortable talking about this kind of thing) when I ovulate I get super needy for extra attention and become very aware of his lack of conversation or eye contact etc. I always warn him in advance that I'm in need of a little attention from him for a couple of days, but he seems to retreat even more. This is something we are both working on (me trying to balance my hormones and him trying to be more attentive). And finding a way for me to get out of the house alone for a couple of hours, as I never get a break from our 3yr old and seem to really need it at that time of the month also.

 

First question, are we talking PMS or PMDD?

 

2) do you suffer equally every month like clock work or some months worse then others?

[Yukiko]

I'm not exactly sure, I don't know that it's extreme enough for PMDD, though about 10 years ago it probably used to be (though it only seemed to be "activated" if I got very drunk). And I don't know if it can be PMS, considering it's at ovulation, not menstruation. I couldn't say if some months are worse... It really only started regularly when I got my periods back at 18 months post partum, and it got increasingly worse until I figured out a combination of supplements to take to avoid it, which work amazingly well. If I take them regularly I only have a day or two of feeling a bit sooky, rather than a week or two of crabby bitchiness (extreme irritability). I was having PMS quite bad too so it felt like practically the whole month was miserable, but things have changed dramatically on the supplements.

[T-16bullseyeWompRat]

I'm not exactly sure, I don't know that it's extreme enough for PMDD, though about 10 years ago it probably used to be (though it only seemed to be "activated" if I got very drunk). And I don't know if it can be PMS, considering it's at ovulation, not menstruation. I couldn't say if some months are worse... It really only started regularly when I got my periods back at 18 months post partum, and it got increasingly worse until I figured out a combination of supplements to take to avoid it, which work amazingly well. If I take them regularly I only have a day or two of feeling a bit sooky, rather than a week or two of crabby bitchiness (extreme irritability). I was having PMS quite bad too so it felt like practically the whole month was miserable, but things have changed dramatically on the supplements.

 

OK. I just wanted to get a scope of your suffering because it can be vastly different between women. It could also affect the advice I would give.

 

This may all sound stupid coming from a guy, and ladies do feel free to correct me. I'm still learning hahaha. But to me the first step is to really study your cycle. It seems like you have a good feel for things, and when/how you will be feeling. This is good because you can now work on damage control based off of this. If you are so in touch with your cycle, you can deflect negative thoughts a lot easier just by keeping in touch with your moods. Then the next step is to get his butt on board. You gotta drag us men to a place of understanding on this subject. The reality is we will never understand, but we CAN make an effort to understand your cycle at least. Then you can both work on your damage control together. A little understanding from both parties can make a huge difference. If you both work equally hard at this the damage will become very limited.

 

Next question, do you feel you may be setting up self fulfilling prophecies with your husband? You know how you are going to feel while ovulating. You say you warn him, then become very aware of his every move. Sounds like you are giving him a test that he has a 99% chance of failure. You certainly aren't doing yourself a favor if this is indeed the case, and it is something you can be mindful of. Damage control. He may feel he is in a no win situation with you over this issue, therefore retreats from the situation all together.

 

... Which brings me to his part in all of this. His idea of damage control in this situation are extremely flawed. Look, the truth is we will NEVER understand this EVER! Error 404, that page will never exist in our minds haha. Therefore, you ladies are just indeed crazy!! (In our minds but that doesn't mean we love you any less! ) Because there is no chance of us ever understanding this, we will indeed be insensitive to your mood swings at times. This is no excuse to lazy on our parts!

 

Sounds to me like he is just being lazy in this situation. He needs to wake up and realize he DOES have a little control here, and that you are suffering more then him. You gotta drag his butt along a little at first, get him some reading material. Talk to him at a time when your own emotions are in check about how you feel when he retreats from the situation. But then he needs to step up to the plate! He can learn your moods if your cycle is fairly regular (which it sounds like you've found something with your supplements) and learn to be more intuitive and in touch with your emotional needs. His ignorance leads him to believe possibly that he is doing the right thing by just waiting things out. He has to learn to be proactive here, and that his efforts will have a great positive effect for both of you. He just needs to man up and put in some effort. And realize that while he may be the occasional victim of an emotional tidal wave, he can greatly limit them with effort and the realization that you are a victim of it far more then he will ever be.