Do you need to be "madly in love" to stay married?

[Mrs. John Adams]

but you keep her letter and read it

 

I am sorry Pen

You are in complete denial

 

You think everything you do is ok...you validate everything you do....

 

it isn't ok and it isn't normal ....ask your wife what she thinks about all these things

[quankanne]

Marriage like all relationships has its ebbs and flows.. Peaks and valleys.. Highs and lows.

 

what Mrs. Adams says. If you expect a relationship to be the same all throughout the course of its existence, it wouldn't be much of a relationship. There are going to be moments that person drives you absolute bat-shxt crazy, and times when you are over the moon. Then there are the times you wonder what on earth you saw in him/her, and other times when you are incredibly humbled by the knowledge that he or she is your perfect fit.

 

so to answer your question, do you "need" to be madly in love with your spouse? No, because it's not realistic when you expect to get a constant contact-high being around someone. That's more of some woo-woo ideal that you've got in your head, when love – at its finest – is very visceral and messy and magical because it *exists* the way it has between the two of you. "in love with" doesn't see a relationship through rough patches and good times, it's a very one-sided fantasy about love. It's not love in and of itself.

 

and would I die for him? I already have. Many times over, when I choose us over me. And my life is all the more better because of it. Even when I want to pinch his fool head off for being a stubborn old redneck.

[truncated]

Op,

what would happen if your wife were to suddenly be gone tomorrow? Not gone as in you two get separated and she left, just she was gone, and you would never get a chance to see her again?

 

What would you miss about her? What would you like to have the the chance to tell her that you never have? What are the things that she adds to your life that would be gone?

[MightyPen]

but you keep her letter and read it

 

I am sorry Pen

You are in complete denial

 

You think everything you do is ok...you validate everything you do....

 

it isn't ok and it isn't normal ....ask your wife what she thinks about all these things

 

 

Now that's not true. You and other posters did convince me to end my "special relationship" with the OW. I feel really good about that, believe me, although I have days where I miss her, I keep telling myself it was the right long-term decision. I hope you understand that was a huge step for e. I know it wasn't right to have such intimate talks with another woman, so no I'm not in denial about everything.

 

But there is a HUGE difference between THAT and me looking at an old letter a few times a year, at least in my opinion.

[MightyPen]

Op,

what would happen if your wife were to suddenly be gone tomorrow? Not gone as in you two get separated and she left, just she was gone, and you would never get a chance to see her again?

 

What would you miss about her? What would you like to have the the chance to tell her that you never have? What are the things that she adds to your life that would be gone?

 

 

She does make me laugh quite often. The other night we were laughing so hard we almost couldn't get in "the mood" afterward, but we were successful (twice).

 

Also, I have a tendency to be very confident (arrogant?) and she tones me down and helps soften my acerbic edges. In turn, I encourage her to be more assertive at work and with friends/family. In that way, we are very complimentary.

 

She is also a wonderful mother. We have very complimentary parenting styles, meaning that the same things that the kids do that drive her crazy also drive me crazy.

[Mrs. John Adams]

Ask your wife HER opinion.

 

Don't you see Pen.....it doesn't matter what you think. Your marriage involves 2 people...not just you.

This is not about you...this is about HER.

 

Ask her how should would feel about all this...I promise you it will be a stimulating and enlightening conversation.

 

You are living a secret life...you are doing things without your wife's knowledge.

 

Some of the basic foundations in a marriage....transparency...honesty....respect.

 

As long as you hide things you have removed those basic things.

 

Now your foundation has a huge crack...you can fix it...or let the marriage continue to crumble.

 

Which will it be?

[T-16bullseyeWompRat]

She does make me laugh quite often. The other night we were laughing so hard we almost couldn't get in "the mood" afterward, but we were successful (twice).

 

Also, I have a tendency to be very confident (arrogant?) and she tones me down and helps soften my acerbic edges. In turn, I encourage her to be more assertive at work and with friends/family. In that way, we are very complimentary.

 

She is also a wonderful mother. We have very complimentary parenting styles, meaning that the same things that the kids do that drive her crazy also drive me crazy.

 

You are finally looking at the important stuff. Keep focusing on the positive, and all the other positives will become even more visible as well. And it will just click back in place why you chose her for a life partner.

 

You keep comparing your wife to a fantasy you know full well she can't live up to. To validate these feelings, you are focusing only on the negatives and making it seem like they outweigh all the great things in your relationship. This is a problem you are going to have to fix for your own good someday. If you end your M, you will only run in to this same issue in your next relationship. You might even be looking at letters or trinkets from your wife remembering all the laughs you had together.

 

If i were you, I would throw all that old ish away. Ceremoniously i might add, and make a conscious effort to stop day dreaming about a fantasy life. Come to the realization that you are doing the most damage to yourself in all of this. You DO have the power to change this. When you are feeling chitty, go to the store and buy your wife some flowers. Do SOMETHING positive. Then force yourself to look at all the great things your wife has and does offer you.

[Mr. Lucky]

I demonstrated love to her last night as well. Twice!

 

Just the first step. My wife and I have an unwritten rule - whomever initiated the night before, the other person has to follow-up with an appreciative/flirtatious phone call or text the next day. Helps to build anticipation and keeps the home fires burning...

 

Mr. Lucky

[MightyPen]

You are finally looking at the important stuff. Keep focusing on the positive, and all the other positives will become even more visible as well. And it will just click back in place why you chose her for a life partner.

 

You keep comparing your wife to a fantasy you know full well she can't live up to. To validate these feelings, you are focusing only on the negatives and making it seem like they outweigh all the great things in your relationship. This is a problem you are going to have to fix for your own good someday. If you end your M, you will only run in to this same issue in your next relationship. You might even be looking at letters or trinkets from your wife remembering all the laughs you had together.

 

If i were you, I would throw all that old ish away. Ceremoniously i might add, and make a conscious effort to stop day dreaming about a fantasy life. Come to the realization that you are doing the most damage to yourself in all of this. You DO have the power to change this. When you are feeling chitty, go to the store and buy your wife some flowers. Do SOMETHING positive. Then force yourself to look at all the great things your wife has and does offer you.

 

Thanks for the pep talk. It's been a week since I said goodbye to the OW and I'm feeling pretty strong. Actually, my conscience is pretty clear, and I don't feel guilty anymore. I'll freely admit that I miss her though. I don't really miss the sexy talk, but I miss bouncing stuff off her.

 

There really isn't "all that" stuff to throw away. I have two things (the letter and then a present from my first girlfriend, which is actually a book and it would silly to throw it out for the principle or something). I think people assume I have some huge stash of stuff. Again, there's a letter and a book and that's all I have. I know some women have whole freakin' piles of stuff. Heck, my wife has photos that have her old boyfriend in them (other people are in them as well) I've never told her to burn those.

 

So yeah, I know the online relationship was wrong, but I don't feel guilty for stashing away a single letter consider we've been NC for 15 years.

[MightyPen]

Just the first step. My wife and I have an unwritten rule - whomever initiated the night before, the other person has to follow-up with an appreciative/flirtatious phone call or text the next day. Helps to build anticipation and keeps the home fires burning...

 

Mr. Lucky

 

 

That sounds like a damn good unwritten rule. I might have to steal that. We both like sending dirty texts to each other at work anyway.

[T-16bullseyeWompRat]

Do you think your wife's old photos cause her pain? Cause her to question you, and your relationship with you? I would give the book away to someone who would like it (if there is no writing in it anyway). What better way to get rid of something causing you pain then to bring joy to someone else? Then, knowing me, I would probably go out to a bar get plastered. Read it a couple more times, and burn that beach.

 

If you can see yourself looking at these a few years from now and they don't bring you pain, or cause you to question your relationship, then I guess go ahead and keep em. I just think in this case it would be more therapeutic to let them go. Its not about letting go of the past, or forgetting old flames either. Its about making yourself stop with all the comparing!!

 

I know what you are going through right now, believe me I do. Here is what I learned. The thoughts about OW, and thoughts about your wife aren't going to go away quickly. But you can chose which thoughts you are going to indulge in. If you are thinking of OW, recognize that thought, but do not allow yourself to indulge in it. Same with negative thoughts about your wife and M. When you see a positive in your wife or M, also recognize it, and force yourself to indulge in those. Some days are going to be worse then others. Just be mindful of your thoughts, and start taking care of yourself by deflecting as much as the negative as you can. It will get easier, I promise.

[jphcbpa]

Seems you like the high of of something new and shiny or this idea of an idealized love that does not exist. Have you thought about going to SLAA (Sex and Love Addicts Anonymous) ?

[jphcbpa]

What makes it worse is that I'm still somewhat hung up on my LDR girlfriend from 20 years ago. Okay, "hung up" is not the right phrase, but I guess I've put her on a pedestal of what a smart, cool chick should be. (I can call her a "chick" because that's what she called herself).

 

This is what I am referring to. You are living in a story that is a fantasy. You could be with this LDR g/f from 20 years ago tomorrow and within the next few years you would be "hung up" on some other person. There is not a woman on the planet that can fill this void you have inside. No woman is going to be your all in all. That is completely unfair to put this on another person.

[MightyPen]

I do find it therapeutic to "check in" once in a while here even if not a lot is going on.

 

We had a good weekend and did lots of Halloween things as a family. I thought about my "secret friend" quite a bit though, because we both adore Halloween and it was a natural trigger.

 

Day to day, I do okay. It's been 10 days NC, and I'm capable of saying, "try not to think about her very much" every morning, but when I think about the big picture (never talking to her again), that's when things get tough. Then I wonder whether or not she's thought about me since we ended things and if she's doing alright. I tell myself that her life is less complicated now and that she'll have more emotional energy for the man in her life.

 

And I still feel guilty for the intimate nature of our past relationship, but truth be told, I feel less guilty each day because what's done is done, and now I also have more emotional energy for my wife and family.

 

And jphcbpa, I know that the past version of my old college girlfriend doesn't exist anymore. You'll notice that after the bolded sentence, I went on to explain things a bit more. She was awesome, but it's been over a long time. I might think about her a few times per year, and maybe some people would say that is too frequent, but it is what it is.

Edited October 19, 2015 by MightyPen

[addictedtoyoga]

Madly in love to me is that initial infatuated feeling when you are first falling in love. It's heady It's dizzying. You feel off balance. It's wonderful stuff but not lasting.

 

 

The rock solid deep-seated love I feel for my husband is bedrock, not ethereal.

 

 

It does mean I don't lust him too but it's so much more than that

 

This, 100%

[Lion Heart]

To the folks who have posted thus far...would you give your life for your spouse?

 

It bothers me that I don't think I would, but I'm just trying to be brutally honest with myself (and you all).

 

I'm not sure if this just means I'm selfish and egocentric, or something else. I assume most people would "take the bullet" for their spouse, so if I'm an outlier, what does that mean?

 

MightyPen, this ^^^^ I do think is overly romantic. I instantly thought of the Knight in Shining Armour type theories. And let's face it, none of us know for 100% certain if we WOULD "take a bullet for a child", INSTEAD of a child in a very definitive set of circumstances but seriously in my case, who would be left standing to fight for the other children's lives?

 

I think you are well and truly OVER thinking this one to the nth degree. Leave it.

 

If you love romanticizing then DO THIS WITH YOUR WIFE.

I watched an excellent TED talk the other night about what we expect in M and what really gets us going (turned on) in a sexual relationship. It's by Esther Perel I think that's the spelling. THESE 2 sets of elements are very different! That's where many of us get off track imho in long term Ms. One spouse (and in my case BOTH of us) craved the "turned on" set and instead of seeking that with me (I provided the M security side) my WH took his yearnings outside the M. Bad choice.

 

Look at this TED talk. It's been SO eye opening for me.

Wonderful, excellent and it completely makes sense.

Bring those exciting elements to your M. Tell your W that you plan on surprising her a bit more in a good way (otherwise she may get suspicious! Lol) then do it all with her.

 

You never know. You might just find fireworks which is far better than "a spark".

 

Best wishes

Lion Heart.

[dichotomy]

I lost "passionate/deep feelings of love" along time ago, due to betrayals and finding out I married/fell in love with someone different than I thought I did. It happens. This was early in our marriage. Now she/we are both different people - again - from THAT time, and my thoughts and feelings have changed as well. So has hers for me. This happens in long marriages as well - people grow and change. Love changes.

 

The question then becomes what is love, is it a feeling, or something else. I rather prefer the definitions by Scott Peck of which below is part of his thoughts on love...

 

"Just as reality intrudes upon the two-year-old’s fantasy of omnipotence so does reality intrude upon the fantastic unity of the couple who have fallen in love. Sooner or later, in response to the problems of daily living, individual will reasserts itself. He wants to have sex, she doesn’t. She wants to go to the movies, he doesn’t. He wants to put money in the bank, she wants a dishwasher. She wants to talk about her job, he wants to talk about his. She doesn’t like his friends, he doesn’t like hers. So both of them, in the privacy of their hearts, begin to come to the sickening realization that they are not one with the beloved, that the beloved has and will continue to have his or her own desires, tastes, prejudices and timing different from their own. One by one, gradually or suddenly, the ego boundaries snap back into place; gradually or suddenly, they fall out of love. Once again they are two separate individuals.

 

At this point they begin either to dissolve the ties of their relationship or to initiate the work of real loving.

 

By my use of the word “real” I am implying that the perception that we are loving when we fall in love is a false perception—that our subjective sense of being loving is an illusion. Real love does not have its roots in a feeling of love. To the contrary, real love often occurs in a context in which the feeling of love is lacking, when we act lovingly despite the fact that we don’t particularly feel loving or particularly even feel like we like the person at the moment."

 

 

If you ever have had kids - and teen kids - you may know this (kind of love) last part very well.

Edited October 26, 2015 by dichotomy

[MightyPen]

MightyPen, this ^^^^ I do think is overly romantic. I instantly thought of the Knight in Shining Armour type theories. And let's face it, none of us know for 100% certain if we WOULD "take a bullet for a child", INSTEAD of a child in a very definitive set of circumstances but seriously in my case, who would be left standing to fight for the other children's lives?

 

I think you are well and truly OVER thinking this one to the nth degree. Leave it.

 

If you love romanticizing then DO THIS WITH YOUR WIFE.

I watched an excellent TED talk the other night about what we expect in M and what really gets us going (turned on) in a sexual relationship. It's by Esther Perel I think that's the spelling. THESE 2 sets of elements are very different! That's where many of us get off track imho in long term Ms. One spouse (and in my case BOTH of us) craved the "turned on" set and instead of seeking that with me (I provided the M security side) my WH took his yearnings outside the M. Bad choice.

 

Look at this TED talk. It's been SO eye opening for me.

Wonderful, excellent and it completely makes sense.

Bring those exciting elements to your M. Tell your W that you plan on surprising her a bit more in a good way (otherwise she may get suspicious! Lol) then do it all with her.

 

You never know. You might just find fireworks which is far better than "a spark".

 

Best wishes

Lion Heart.

 

 

Thanks! I just looked it up and found it. I might check it out at lunch today(assuming there are no client emergencies while I attempt to shove some microwaved chicken burritos into my pie hole).

[Ms. Faust]

I got some "boyfriend treatment" last night. Is that TMI?? I can never tell on these boards what's over the line.

 

These forums talk about gang bangs, period sex, cuckolding, etc. without blinking an eye. I am sure you are fine.

[SolG]

The question then becomes what is love, is it a feeling, or something else. I rather prefer the definitions by Scott Peck of which below is part of his thoughts on love...

 

"Just as reality intrudes upon the two-year-old’s fantasy of omnipotence so does reality intrude upon the fantastic unity of the couple who have fallen in love. Sooner or later, in response to the problems of daily living, individual will reasserts itself. He wants to have sex, she doesn’t. She wants to go to the movies, he doesn’t. He wants to put money in the bank, she wants a dishwasher. She wants to talk about her job, he wants to talk about his. She doesn’t like his friends, he doesn’t like hers. So both of them, in the privacy of their hearts, begin to come to the sickening realization that they are not one with the beloved, that the beloved has and will continue to have his or her own desires, tastes, prejudices and timing different from their own. One by one, gradually or suddenly, the ego boundaries snap back into place; gradually or suddenly, they fall out of love. Once again they are two separate individuals.

 

At this point they begin either to dissolve the ties of their relationship or to initiate the work of real loving.

 

By my use of the word “real” I am implying that the perception that we are loving when we fall in love is a false perception—that our subjective sense of being loving is an illusion. Real love does not have its roots in a feeling of love. To the contrary, real love often occurs in a context in which the feeling of love is lacking, when we act lovingly despite the fact that we don’t particularly feel loving or particularly even feel like we like the person at the moment."

 

Thank you for posting this. It brings to mind Nash and Schnarch as well. I don't believe that real/true love can exist without differentiation. That is, accepting that you are inherently separate and imperfect human beings and all that that entails. And then wholly knowing and being known; good, bad and ugly. And loving one another both because of, and despite it all.

 

Indeed, I would argue that we cannot love without differentiation, personal revelation and the vulnerability that entails. Because how can you truly love someone you don't truly know?

 

I actually believe that a certain number of As are caused through fear of differentiation and vulnerability. Sometimes when a couple becomes so fused there is immense fear that acknowledging separateness and the darker side of self means risking rejection from someone beloved.

 

For example the supposedly chaste and demure SAHM who has a torrid and seemingly out-of-character A... Because she subconsciously feared rejection from her BH if she were to reveal that emerging side of herself to him. And ultimately that fear of rejection drives behaviour that ironically may directly cause realisation of that fear. She may even still fear that rejection so greatly that she'll continue to deny that side of herself--that obviously exists--even after being caught.

 

If that same couple were trusting and accepting of their separateness and subsequent individual growth, experience, and flaws... Maybe they would have been open enough to have the conversation that staved off the A in the first place. The I'm unsettled, I have this kink, I'm not feeling connected to you, I'm attracted to someone and confused, I don't know why but I'm losing attraction for you, I'm losing attraction for you and this is why, I want more sex, I want more attention, I resent this, I'm struggling with ageing, I'm afraid of dying... These conversations.

 

I think when partners can have these conversations; the ones where they are truly vulnerable, the ones that sometimes hurt greatly but need to be had... That's ten thousand times more loving than romantic poetry.

Edited October 26, 2015 by SolG

[FloraJ]

If this statement is true...divorce your wife.

If i thought for one second john still loved an old girlfriend...I am outta here.

that is the most insensitive statement......

 

You truly need to step back and read some of the things you write...and put yourself in your wife's shoes.

 

You may not see what you are saying...because you are totally and completely selfish.

 

Do you need to be "madly in love " to stay married....you need to be honest about your feelings with your wife and with yourself. Do you even love her at all?

 

I totally disagree that you can't love an old partner or keep letters. I have letters and photos from all my previous partners. I had a life before I got married and my husband is not at all threatened by that. Several men have been important to me in my life and I'm not going to forget them or act like those years of my life didn't happen. Nor do I mind my husband having positive feelings towards his previous partners. Keeping one letter from 15 years ago has no bearing on OP's marriage IMO.