Do you need to be "madly in love" to stay married?

[truncated]

"Madly in love" to me sounds very honeymoon-ish. After 20 years of marriage, I love my wife deeply and profoundly. Our love is a love born of time and experience. Our love is not as fiery as it was when we were newlyweds, but it's deeper and has more history behind it. Love can change through time. It's no less powerful, just maybe not as exciting as new love. And THAT, my friend, is how some people justify cheating. They long for new love and can't value a deeper, older love. It's a slippery slope. They move on to a new love, then a few years later grow into an old love again and cheat again.

 

To answer more succinctly, I love my wife more than I have ever loved anyone, with the exception of our children.

 

 

It's in love like this that you will find the things that you will never get in "infatuation" love.

 

There is a deep sense of trust, compassion, and "oneness" with the other person. It's always there, just below the surface of all parts of your life.

This is not to say that i am always happy with my spouse, or that there aren't time when I would just love to wring his neck. after all, we are two human beings and as such, we can get on each others nerves sometimes.

 

 

I don't say my spouse completes me, as I am a complete and whole person in my own right. I don't "need" him in that sense. It's more like I need him because I want him to be there. We are partners in a team that have made, and continue to make, the decision to go through life together.

[MightyPen]

Wow there was a ton of thoughtful discussion yesterday. I was AWOL from LS because I reeeeally needed to devote myself to work projects yesterday with minimal distractions. The same holds true for today. Thursday should be better.

 

I'm still just plodding forward one day at a time to let myself settle down. I barely thought about the OW yesterday, although there were a few triggers, mostly related to music.

 

I plan to just ride it out through the holidays, which are stressful enough, and see how I'm feeling in 2016. I think IC and/or MC would be a good idea after the holidays.

 

And in case there was any confusion, since this thread is pretty long, I did not keep a letter from the OW. The letter I mentioned was from a girlfriend over 15 years ago, before my wife entered the picture. It's not like I'm keeping old sex photos (yes, I read other threads!).

[MightyPen]

Pretend your wife is your girlfriend. My H and I do this stuff all the time. It's fun to just role play that you are dating, and not married. It'll help you see her as a girlfriend, and you may get some boyfriend treatment. Fun!

 

 

I got some "boyfriend treatment" last night. Is that TMI?? I can never tell on these boards what's over the line.

[MightyPen]

Mighty, I think you are more in love with the idea of being in love, with infatuation, that if you don't have that constant butterflies, panicky, feeling you doubt the feelings. That isn't long term love. It has it, absolutely, but not 24/7.

 

And it can be created when there is love. But I think you are in a perpetual state of the "grass is always greener" so no matter who the main lady in your life is, you will look wistfully over the fence at past loves or others. I don't think you actually know what long term love looks like.

 

I agree, therapy would be very helpful for you as you are going to rinse and repeat this cycle for years to come if you don't.

 

I am not saying whether or not you actually love your wife and whether your marriage should continue on. But until you have a better understanding of what you should be looking for I don't think you are in a place to make a decision.

 

 

I think I owe you money for this analysis. I used to joke in graduate school that "serial monogamy" made the most sense: Have a fun, passionate LTR in your 20s where you party too hard, have too much sex (such a thing?), and get all the wildness "out of your system" without bouncing from person to person as many often do. Then find a sane, responsible person to partner with through your 30s and 40s to raise kids, and then maybe find someone who you mesh with on a deep intellectual/philosophical level in your 50s who has some wanderlust and just explore the world until your knees give out.

Edited October 14, 2015 by MightyPen

[Mrs. John Adams]

I am not sure why you think you cannot find all that in one person....but whatever.

 

By the way...you can replace knees too...just like you think you can replace people

 

It's just as painful and takes a good deal of adjustment.

 

Here's the way i look at it....

 

You get a horse....and this horse has an issue with cribbing. So you sell him and get a new horse...this horse doesn't crib but it bites....so you sell him and get a new horse...this horse doesn't crib or bite...but he kicks.

 

I think I will keep the horse i have...because i know what the issues are and i have learned to deal with them. He isn't a perfect horse...because there are no perfect horses...but he is a damn good one. I kept my horse for 24 years and he died this spring. I am not going to get another one...

 

Horses are like people....you can trade in a spouse for a new one who also comes with a different set of issues. there are no perfect spouses....I have kept my spouse for 43 years...and he has been a damn good one and i am hoping i get to keep him a whole lot longer.....

[Furious]

I guess the question says it all.

 

I have a lot of affection for my wife, but if I was strapped to a polygraph and asked "Are you madly in love with her?" I'm not sure my attempted "yes" would pass the test. Do I like her? Yes. Do I think she's sexy? Yes. Do I value her as a person? Yes. But is all of that enough?

 

And it's funny because I've had the opposite problem with other relationships. I've tended to overly romanticize those. From my first real girlfriend in high school, to a two-year LDR in college, to a very intense one-night thing (not even a ONS, as there was no sex), in graduate school, to my recent "special online relationship," I always overly romanticize how perfect things were with these woman. And I don't just do it NOW. I did it back then.

 

What am I to make of this? Does everyone else "madly love" their spouse? I'm not even sure what that means or how to objectively measure it, but I guess I mean that when we did our estate planning, obviously the thought of her dying made me sad, but I immediately thought afterwards, "the kids and I would make it." I'm not sure that's a normal reaction to have.

 

And I know someone will ask, so I'll add this: I'm not sure if I ever "passionately" loved her, even when we were first married. But again, I'm not sure how to measure it. I ask myself would I take a bullet for my kids? The answer is immediately yes! But when I ask myself if I'd take a bullet for my wife...I struggle to give an honest answer.

 

 

How does takng a bullet or not taking a bullet for your wife equate to being madly in love?

 

You've been "in love" before you met your wife, are your past loves worthy of you taking a bullet for them in the present time?

 

The paradox to your question about being madly in love and the test is willing to take a bullet for that love is seriously flawed logic.

Edited October 14, 2015 by Furious

[Mr. Lucky]

I got some "boyfriend treatment" last night. Is that TMI??

 

It is TMI - Terrific Marital Interaction.

 

I'll bet at the moment you were "madly in love". See how that works :confused:???

 

Mr. Lucky

[MightyPen]

I've become convinced romance is a zero sum game, the energy you put into something like this is taken from your partner. You maintain the love you feel for your spouse by making sure she's the sole recipient of those thoughts and gestures. Ever notice how the BS becomes less attractive as the WS becomes interested in their AP? Only so much dopamine in our bodies...

 

Mr. Lucky

 

 

I've given thought to that before as well.

 

I'm not sure if I agree, but the whole zero sum game is an interesting idea. But if I take your argument correctly, "romantic love" would be unique in this regard?

 

After all, no one would ever say, "You can only love so many children...after the fourth one, your love for them gets diluted." Mothers (and fathers) would generally say they have enough love for all their children and that it wasn't "watered down" just because the love was spread among many.

 

And I don't think you necessarily stop loving people after the relationship ends, depending on a variety of factors. I still love my old college girlfriend, or at least I love the person she was 15 years ago. I still remember how much she loved grunge bands, sports of all kinds, and saying things like "neener neener (it was 70/30 cute/annoying).

Edited October 14, 2015 by MightyPen

[Mrs. John Adams]

I've given thought to that before as well.

 

I'm not sure if I agree, but the whole zero sum game is an interesting idea. But if I take your argument correctly, "romantic love" would be unique in this regard?

 

After all, no one would ever say, "You can only love so many children...after the fourth one, your love for them gets diluted." Mothers (and fathers) would generally say they have enough love for all their children and that it wasn't "watered down" just because the love was spread among many.

 

And I don't think you necessarily stop loving people after the relationship ends, depending on a variety of factors. I still love my old college girlfriend, or at least I love the person she was 15 years ago. I still remember how much she loved Pearl Jam, sports of all kinds, and saying things like "neener neener (it was 70/30 cute/annoying).

 

 

If this statement is true...divorce your wife.

If i thought for one second john still loved an old girlfriend...I am outta here.

that is the most insensitive statement......

 

You truly need to step back and read some of the things you write...and put yourself in your wife's shoes.

 

You may not see what you are saying...because you are totally and completely selfish.

 

Do you need to be "madly in love " to stay married....you need to be honest about your feelings with your wife and with yourself. Do you even love her at all?

[MightyPen]

If this statement is true...divorce your wife.

If i thought for one second john still loved an old girlfriend...I am outta here.

that is the most insensitive statement......

 

You truly need to step back and read some of the things you write...and put yourself in your wife's shoes.

 

You may not see what you are saying...because you are totally and completely selfish.

 

Do you need to be "madly in love " to stay married....you need to be honest about your feelings with your wife and with yourself. Do you even love her at all?

 

 

I just think we have different views. I respect your views and I think it's great that you are very happy with your husband.

 

I doubt I'm the only person in the world who'd admit they still have love for an ex who treated them well and with whom they connected on a deep level, and where things ended amicably. Love doesn't just totally dry up and disappear into dust. It decreases, naturally, but some remains.

 

Am I the only one who thinks this? Maybe I am odd after all.

 

EDIT: I read everything I write, and I meant every word of this post. I don't think having love for an ex (whom I'm never going to see again) is unhealthy. In fact, I'd argue the opposite would be true. Maybe I'm in the minority, but even if I am, so what? I'm just expressing my views and working my way through my thoughts.

Edited October 14, 2015 by MightyPen

[Mrs. John Adams]

Ask your wife what she thinks...it is the only opinion that really matters.

 

Ask her about pen pals and ex girlfriends letters and loving ex girlfriends.

 

You said you want stimulating conversation with her...and i am betting it will be a very enlightening conversation indeed.

[autumnnight]

Could it be that you have vivid memories of that love rather than that you still love them?

 

My first boyfriend died while we were dating. I can say that I still have a "soft spot" for him. I don't love him, but I'l always treasure those memories.

[Got it]

I am not sure why you think you cannot find all that in one person....but whatever.

 

By the way...you can replace knees too...just like you think you can replace people

 

It's just as painful and takes a good deal of adjustment.

 

Here's the way i look at it....

 

You get a horse....and this horse has an issue with cribbing. So you sell him and get a new horse...this horse doesn't crib but it bites....so you sell him and get a new horse...this horse doesn't crib or bite...but he kicks.

 

I think I will keep the horse i have...because i know what the issues are and i have learned to deal with them. He isn't a perfect horse...because there are no perfect horses...but he is a damn good one. I kept my horse for 24 years and he died this spring. I am not going to get another one...

 

Horses are like people....you can trade in a spouse for a new one who also comes with a different set of issues. there are no perfect spouses....I have kept my spouse for 43 years...and he has been a damn good one and i am hoping i get to keep him a whole lot longer.....

 

As a horse person I appreciate your analogy though I think it may fly over some people's heads.

 

But on your scenario I would really reassess if I actually know how to horse shop and why I keep getting horses with such issues.

 

And many with horses keep horses for the needs they were bought for but when they can't match them you sell it to someone that can. Not everyone can be a forever home for every horse they buy. Some must move on.

 

Now, to add to your analogy comparing to people, there are, if one is lucky, that one special forever horse, that you connect with at a level that it just doesn't happen with others, and that one is always in your heart.

 

But not every horse has that. I have three that have retired with me basically and one show horse. My forever horse died a couple years ago at 15. But my oldest, at 28, is with me until he passes, had him for two decades almost, but not because he a forever horse but because he became injured and only pasture sounded and I felt obligated to keep him.

 

Both with me until death, but one was a much closer connection, the other is an obligation.

[lollipopspot]

After all, no one would ever say, "You can only love so many children...after the fourth one, your love for them gets diluted." Mothers (and fathers) would generally say they have enough love for all their children and that it wasn't "watered down" just because the love was spread among many.

 

Actually, I think it often does get diluted, even though people generally insist that it doesn't. Single children usually get the most care and attention, and the more that are added it goes down for each one. The single child is 'known' more than one of multiples. Multiples are often treated as "the children" and each is not individually as important as if they were the only child.

 

That's just what I've seen and experienced, YMMV.

[xxoo]

Ask your wife what she thinks...it is the only opinion that really matters.

 

Ask her about pen pals and ex girlfriends letters and loving ex girlfriends.

 

You said you want stimulating conversation with her...and i am betting it will be a very enlightening conversation indeed.

 

That last line is so true

 

I'm sentimental, but not jealous of exes. I knew my H's ex, and I wouldn't be surprised or upset if he held fondness and even love for that girl (who is now a woman and not who he holds love and fondness for).

 

The difference is, I am sure...positive....that my husband isn't pining for her, wouldn't rather be with her, and felt stronger love for me than he ever felt for her. It's not a competition, it's just reality. His attention is on me. That's important! That nurtures the "madly in love" feelings. Things at the bottom of a box don't do that.

[Mrs. John Adams]

As a horse person I appreciate your analogy though I think it may fly over some people's heads.

 

But on your scenario I would really reassess if I actually know how to horse shop and why I keep getting horses with such issues.

 

And many with horses keep horses for the needs they were bought for but when they can't match them you sell it to someone that can. Not everyone can be a forever home for every horse they buy. Some must move on.

 

Now, to add to your analogy comparing to people, there are, if one is lucky, that one special forever horse, that you connect with at a level that it just doesn't happen with others, and that one is always in your heart.

 

But not every horse has that. I have three that have retired with me basically and one show horse. My forever horse died a couple years ago at 15. But my oldest, at 28, is with me until he passes, had him for two decades almost, but not because he a forever horse but because he became injured and only pasture sounded and I felt obligated to keep him.

 

Both with me until death, but one was a much closer connection, the other is an obligation.

 

Many times...we don't really know what we get until we live with them for a while. We date....we explore....sometimes we even live together...we think we know what we are getting...and there may be some things about the other person we are not crazy about......

my point is...we don't trade them in for a new person...who may have something even worse to deal with.

 

My neighbors traded horses all the time....trying to get the "winner". I bought that horse i was talking about from them. He had bitten them several times...they owned him about 18 months. I owned him 24 years....he never bit me one single time. Was the problem the horse...or the owner?

Anyway....my baby died this spring....he was 29 years old.....and i miss him everyday.

 

back to the subject.......

[MightyPen]

That last line is so true

 

I'm sentimental, but not jealous of exes. I knew my H's ex, and I wouldn't be surprised or upset if he held fondness and even love for that girl (who is now a woman and not who he holds love and fondness for).

 

The difference is, I am sure...positive....that my husband isn't pining for her, wouldn't rather be with her, and felt stronger love for me than he ever felt for her. It's not a competition, it's just reality. His attention is on me. That's important! That nurtures the "madly in love" feelings. Things at the bottom of a box don't do that.

 

 

I'm not pining for mine either, but again, just as your husband might hold love for his ex, I hold love for mine. And I guess some of it is semantics - "love," "fondness," "affection," etc. It's not like I sit there and think about her, but you know, once in a while a certain band will be playing on the radio and yeah, it will trigger a happy memory and I might smile or something and then I go about my day. That's how I roll.

[Bittersweetie]

I struggled with the same kind of thoughts before my A. My H and I had been together for 10+ years at that point, and I wondered, is this it? I even thought back on an old boyfriend and read some old letters too. With all this convoluted thinking I went on to have an A, thinking it would give me some answers. It didn't, just a lot of pain for all of us.

 

When the A ended and my H and I started spending time together in person again (we'd been living in separate states), I rediscovered the things I loved about him. I'd been focusing so much on the negatives and not the positives (to rationalize my choices). When d-day hit, I knew I wanted to still be with him 100% but I didn't know if that would actually happen.

 

We've now been together over 20 years. And while I may not love him with the early passion I did 20 years ago, I do love him with all of me. I think after everything I've been through...the choices I made and the consequences, I understand that life and relationships are very fragile. They need to be cared for to stay strong. I am incredibly lucky to have my husband and my marriage. He is my best friend.

 

I agree with a couple of PPs too: maybe try talking to your wife about this stuff. And do some IC. Good luck.

[Mr. Lucky]

I'm not pining for mine either, but again, just as your husband might hold love for his ex, I hold love for mine.

 

To me, this is at least part of your problem. You see "love" as a noun, it's a feeling, something you keep, hold, treasure.

 

Between my wife and I, love is a verb, something we do, actions we take, acts of service, compromises we make, considerations we show. By definition, not something you can do with someone you last saw 15 years ago.

 

I got some "boyfriend treatment" last night.

 

Your wife didn't feel love last night, she demonstrated it. That's how you stay in love - I don't wait to "feel" that way, I challenge myself to act that way...

 

Mr. Lucky

[truncated]

I just think we have different views. I respect your views and I think it's great that you are very happy with your husband.

 

I doubt I'm the only person in the world who'd admit they still have love for an ex who treated them well and with whom they connected on a deep level, and where things ended amicably. Love doesn't just totally dry up and disappear into dust. It decreases, naturally, but some remains.

 

Am I the only one who thinks this? Maybe I am odd after all.

 

EDIT: I read everything I write, and I meant every word of this post. I don't think having love for an ex (whom I'm never going to see again) is unhealthy. In fact, I'd argue the opposite would be true. Maybe I'm in the minority, but even if I am, so what? I'm just expressing my views and working my way through my thoughts.

 

I think you can remember facets of a person that you loved ( and maybe still do) without it being a big problem.

 

The issue is your say you are in love with someone who isn't even real. you are in love with a skewed memory of what she was like and also quite possibly in love with a simpler time in your life.

 

Who isn't? It's easy to look back with fondness to one's younger days, before there were so many responsibilities and you knew the things you know now...when you felt like you had all the answers. But again,that's not real. It was decades ago. It's nice yo walk down memory lane, but taking up digs there is quite another.

 

For one thing, it's not fair to your wife. You love something that never really was...an idealized view of "puppy love" which is perfect and nothing can compete with a fantasy.

 

I wonder what would happen if you met this woman today? What would she be like? There's a reason this is the fodder of so many sitcoms...but you aint fred Savage and this isn't "the wonder years"...no, it's your real life, and every day you spend mooning ( erm "analyzing") about things that were over decades ago is a day you wasted wallowing in your past.

 

You want to do that? Fine, but don't drag your wife down into the pit with you.

Edited October 15, 2015 by a LoveShack.org Moderator

[truncated]

I struggled with the same kind of thoughts before my A. My H and I had been together for 10+ years at that point, and I wondered, is this it? I even thought back on an old boyfriend and read some old letters too. With all this convoluted thinking I went on to have an A, thinking it would give me some answers. It didn't, just a lot of pain for all of us.

 

When the A ended and my H and I started spending time together in person again (we'd been living in separate states), I rediscovered the things I loved about him. I'd been focusing so much on the negatives and not the positives (to rationalize my choices). When d-day hit, I knew I wanted to still be with him 100% but I didn't know if that would actually happen.

 

We've now been together over 20 years. And while I may not love him with the early passion I did 20 years ago, I do love him with all of me. I think after everything I've been through...the choices I made and the consequences, I understand that life and relationships are very fragile. They need to be cared for to stay strong. I am incredibly lucky to have my husband and my marriage. He is my best friend.

 

I agree with a couple of PPs too: maybe try talking to your wife about this stuff. And do some IC. Good luck.

 

Sometimes it's like the old saying goes. You never realize how much you value something or someone until you face the possibility of losing them.

[LivingWaterPlease]

Anyway....my baby died this spring....he was 29 years old.....and i miss him everyday.

 

back to the subject.......

 

Mrs. John Adams, I am so very sorry to read this. I know there are no words that I, a stranger to you, could write that would comfort you and I'm sorry about that, too. If there were such words, I would love to write them to you. I've just asked God to somehow comfort you in the way that only He can. Many heartfelt hugs and prayers for you and your husband.

[Mrs. John Adams]

thank you...we miss him but he was suffering......

 

now back to the subject matter......Pen

[MightyPen]

To me, this is at least part of your problem. You see "love" as a noun, it's a feeling, something you keep, hold, treasure.

 

Between my wife and I, love is a verb, something we do, actions we take, acts of service, compromises we make, considerations we show. By definition, not something you can do with someone you last saw 15 years ago.

 

 

 

Your wife didn't feel love last night, she demonstrated it. That's how you stay in love - I don't wait to "feel" that way, I challenge myself to act that way...

 

Mr. Lucky

 

I demonstrated love to her last night as well. Twice!

[MightyPen]

I think you can remember facets of a person that you loved ( and maybe still do) without it being a big problem.

 

The issue is your say you are in love with someone who isn't even real. you are in love with a skewed memory of what she was like and also quite possibly in love with a simpler time in your life.

 

Who isn't? It's easy to look back with fondness to one's younger days, before there were so many responsibilities and you knew the things you know now...when you felt like you had all the answers. But again,that's not real. It was decades ago. It's nice yo walk down memory lane, but taking up digs there is quite another.

 

For one thing, it's not fair to your wife. You love something that never really was...an idealized view of "puppy love" which is perfect and nothing can compete with a fantasy.

 

I wonder what would happen if you met this woman today? What would she be like? There's a reason this is the fodder of so many sitcoms...but you aint fred Savage and this isn't "the wonder years"...no, it's your real life, and every day you spend mooning ( erm "analyzing") about things that were over decades ago is a day you wasted wallowing in your past.

 

You want to do that? Fine, but don't drag your wife down into the pit with you.

 

I haven't taken up digs there. I've never tried to contract her in 15 years. I haven't FB stalked her. I am quite happy having the perfect little memories in my head. I wonder about what she did with her life, but I don't obsess.