alphamale Posted May 21, 2005 Share Posted May 21, 2005 Originally posted by Marshbear You cannot be a door-mat to someone that you truly love and who truly loves you. If you think you are a door-mat, they don't respect you, then they don't truly love you. yes MARSHBEAR....this utopian idea people have of love as being all-conquering and not having to do any work and "it should be easy" is total bull-krap. You have to work at your love relationship every minute of every day and part of that is keeping your self-respect and self-worth so that the other person stays in love with you. Some of this "work" may include playing some games or relationship politics to keep things going. A good analogy would be the workplace. Just cause you love your job or your career does not mean you stop working when u get into the office. When you love your job you have to work even harder. Link to post Share on other sites
Marshbear Posted May 21, 2005 Share Posted May 21, 2005 Originally posted by d'Arthez Nonsense. It depends on your own character and integrity, how many people you have to date. I don't believe in the whole nonsensical romantic idea that there is but one person who "completes" you. I'd rather say "finishes" you. Love for one person presupposes already a love for humanity. I agree. Their is not one person who completes you but it does take some work and knowing yourself to find what you really need. They may not be what you are expecting and you have to put aside cultural propaganda but the effort is worth it. Link to post Share on other sites
Marshbear Posted May 21, 2005 Share Posted May 21, 2005 Originally posted by alphamale yes MARSHBEAR....this utopian idea people have of love as being all-conquering and not having to do any work and "it should be easy" is total bull-krap. You have to work at your love relationship every minute of every day and part of that is keeping your self-respect and self-worth so that the other person stays in love with you. Some of this "work" may include playing some games or relationship politics to keep things going. A good analogy would be the workplace. Just cause you love your job or your career does not mean you stop working when u get into the office. When you love your job you have to work even harder. I do not think in terms of utopia and the idealistic is unattainable. I did not say it would be easy and not require work. When two people are involved then disagreement arises. I only mean that if the desire to please each other is present then things can be worked out. Compromises are a must. Game playing is fine in the courtship phase when you are weeding out those that don't fit but I don't think games should be played in a committed relationship ( except for fun ). As for the job, I agree that working at something you love is rewarding in it's own right. If you love something you work harder to keep it. Peace... Link to post Share on other sites
Author ConfusedInOC Posted May 22, 2005 Author Share Posted May 22, 2005 Originally posted by Jadey How would you apply these to get your ex back or interested? You can not "use" them to get them back, per say. You have to have self confidence and self respect. That's kind of what NO CONTACT teaches. Discipline. Patience. Self Respect. Self-Confidence. It's when you get them back that you need to put all these into effect. This is more for NEW relationships. What I screwed up, I doubt I can ever recover from with my ex. Link to post Share on other sites
XNemesisX Posted May 22, 2005 Share Posted May 22, 2005 Originally posted by ConfusedInOC You can not "use" them to get them back, per say. You have to have self confidence and self respect. That's kind of what NO CONTACT teaches. Discipline. Patience. Self Respect. Self-Confidence. <Please see my rant on NC..bleh> NC is about nothing more than NOT being a stalker to someone. This is what I think. If you love someone, you fight for it. If you are the only one fighting for it, you are in the wrong relationship. It should mean enough to BOTH of you to work out the problems. Every relationship has problems, its the ones where both members of the relationship love eachother so much, and care enough to actually work on it and not just cut and run. Nothing is ever accomplished or fixed by just walking out the door and ignoring the problems (NC). And if someone cares so little about making something work as to break up with someone or give up or do NC or WHATEVER...then there was never really love there to start with. Sure, NC is great once you have tried everything else to get the person back...once you see they are unresponsive and don't give a damn and don't want to fix things, then do NC and save yourself the embarrassment and possible restraining order. Link to post Share on other sites
Author ConfusedInOC Posted May 22, 2005 Author Share Posted May 22, 2005 Originally posted by XNemesisX <Please see my rant on ..bleh> NC is about nothing more than NOT being a stalker to someone. This is what I think. If you love someone, you fight for it. If you are the only one fighting for it, you are in the wrong relationship. It should mean enough to BOTH of you to work out the problems. Every relationship has problems, its the ones where both members of the relationship love eachother so much, and care enough to actually work on it and not just cut and run. The more you push someone who is not sure they want to be in a relationship the more they will want to run away. No contact gives them breathing space and let's them see you are confident and secure without them. That releases the noose on their neck and helps them see you in a different light. Nothing is ever accomplished or fixed by just walking out the door and ignoring the problems (NC). And if someone cares so little about making something work as to break up with someone or give up or do NC or WHATEVER...then there was never really love there to start with. NC is initiated when one is dumped. But even if you aren't dumped and you see things are going wrong, you can back off a tad and if they love you, they'll come back around. It's about give and take. You back off to they can feel FREE to give. It's when you latch on to someone and don't let them go that they feel trapped and want their breathing space. It also shows them you are desperate. That's a big turn off. No contact isn't about NEVER speaking to your ex. It's about getting respect back and putting you in a position to have some bargaining power. Break NC and show them you are weak and you have no respect and no power. Sure, NC is great once you have tried everything else to get the person back...once you see they are unresponsive and don't give a damn and don't want to fix things, then do NC and save yourself the embarrassment and possible restraining order. If you try everything else first you will have blown and chance to use NC to gain your respect back in their eyes and thus your NC will stand for NO CHANCE.... Link to post Share on other sites
XNemesisX Posted May 22, 2005 Share Posted May 22, 2005 The more you push someone who is not sure they want to be in a relationship the more they will want to run away. No contact gives them breathing space and let's them see you are confident and secure without them. That releases the noose on their neck and helps them see you in a different light. One of my points is that in a REAL relationship, where the love is very much mutual..then NC will never even be needed. It won't be about having to show self-confidence or power or giving someone breathing room. I hate to use my friend who is in a terribly abusive relationship as an example...but I know that she and her boyfriend love eachother so much they have overcame so many obstacles in their relationship. And they are both very adament about fixing problems. She is not in the best relationship in my eyes or others eyes but I know (esp after my own experience with my ex) that there must be real love there. They BOTH fight for the relationship...by working it out and talking it out not having one party or the other play this NC shabang. NC is initiated when one is dumped. But even if you aren't dumped and you see things are going wrong, you can back off a tad and if they love you, they'll come back around. I agree with the last part of that sentence but not the first. Nc should not be initiated in a dumpee who was dumped for reasons of their own doing. If the dumpee f***ed up, the worst thing you can do is go NC. I know I have broken up with guys for being a f***tard and the whole time I was thinking they had better fight for me back...if they hadn't I would have taken that as them not really caring enough. I just don't think there are any "guidelines" for a relationship ...like that book you pointed out. I also think you are being unfair to yourself by saying *YOU* broke 13 our of 15 of these guidelines. No relationship is the fault of just one person. It takes two to tango to make a relationship end, IMO. Like my grandmother says, "if it was meant to be it would have materialized." People who really mutually love eachother will fight equally to make a relationship work..these are the couples that really last....if you don't find this happening in your own relationship then you were in the wrong relationship. Man, I hate to say it but I really envy the love my friend has with her boyfriend. Where most people would have got out of that relationship long ago and gave up, they have stuck in there and have both fought to make it work...and it's working. Link to post Share on other sites
Author ConfusedInOC Posted May 22, 2005 Author Share Posted May 22, 2005 Originally posted by XNemesisX One of my points is that in a REAL relationship, where the love is very much mutual..then NC will never even be needed. It won't be about having to show self-confidence or power or giving someone breathing room. I hate to use my friend who is in a terribly abusive relationship as an example...but I know that she and her boyfriend love eachother so much they have overcame so many obstacles in their relationship. And they are both very adament about fixing problems. She is not in the best relationship in my eyes or others eyes but I know (esp after my own experience with my ex) that there must be real love there. They BOTH fight for the relationship...by working it out and talking it out not having one party or the other play this NC shabang. Read "Love Must Be Tough" and you'll see why NC is important. It's not the ONLY way to win them back, and there are times when nothing you do or say will get them back. In those cases, you have to let them go completely because they weren't right for you at all. I agree with the last part of that sentence but not the first. Nc should not be initiated in a dumpee who was dumped for reasons of their own doing. If the dumpee f***ed up, the worst thing you can do is go NC. I know I have broken up with guys for being a f***tard and the whole time I was thinking they had better fight for me back...if they hadn't I would have taken that as them not really caring enough. Depends on what you were dumped for. If you were dumped for being clingy or "suffocating" your SO, then NC is the ONLY option. You have to give them time to see that you have changed and that you are self confident and assured and don't NEED the other person. It's that feeling of FREEDOM you give your Ex that allows them to come back naturally and not feel pressed. Mutual respect for each other's space is important. Now what if your Ex left you because YOU cheated on them? Initiating NC probably wouldn't be the best option. If you made an honest mistake, I would give them a little space to cool down and would start working things back in slowly. But I wouldn't grovel or beg. I would be sincere and apologetic. Sometimes they will forgive you and sometimes they won't.... I just don't think there are any "guidelines" for a relationship ...like that book you pointed out. I also think you are being unfair to yourself by saying *YOU* broke 13 our of 15 of these guidelines. No relationship is the fault of just one person. It takes two to tango to make a relationship end, IMO. Don't say that without reading it first. You're skeptical now, but once you read the book, you will feel empowered in identifying the mistakes you made in the past and confident you will not repeat them. And he use that old adage "It takes two to tangle" (he says tangle) a lot in the book. There are guidelines and you see them crystal clear when you read the book. Like my grandmother says, "if it was meant to be it would have materialized." I'm sorry but I see that as a cop out. You have control if you don't lay all your cards out on the table right away. Like it or not, Alpha's right in the sense that dating and relationships are a game. If you show the SO all your cards right away, you will most certainly give them all the power and you will be helpless and not respected. I could have learned from this simple rule: "A tablespoon of sugar will keep them coming back, but a bag full will make them sick." Had I followed that rule, I'd still have my ex and no wake up sick to my stomach every morning, angry at myself for not realizing how badly I was suffocating her. People who really mutually love eachother will fight equally to make a relationship work..these are the couples that really last.... They won't fight, they will work together to understand MUTUAL RESPECT. Without it, there's nothing to fight for. Read the book and you'll see what I mean. Link to post Share on other sites
whichwayisup Posted May 22, 2005 Share Posted May 22, 2005 Originally posted by alphamale it took me 20 yrs to know what I know about women now. When I was 23 or 24 I could not even talk to a beautiful woman without tossing my cookies. The thought of a female scared the living daylites out of me. Hey, just like Stan on South Park! When he'd see Wendy, he'd barf. She would talk to him, he'd barf! ....ever go to a restaurant and the waiter brings your dish and they say "don't touch the plate, it's hot". dont' you always touch it after the waiter leaves just to see how hot it is? I do. LOL! I do that too! My husband thinks I'm very retarded. Can't help it! Must be a childhood thing as when mom/dad would say "Don't do blahblahblah..." I would purposely GO and do it just for the hell of it. Confused, you're lookin' quite Buff now in that pic of yours there. The workingout in the gym really shows eh! Link to post Share on other sites
Author ConfusedInOC Posted May 22, 2005 Author Share Posted May 22, 2005 Originally posted by whichwayisup Confused, you're lookin' quite Buff now in that pic of yours there. The workingout in the gym really shows eh! Thanks Link to post Share on other sites
XNemesisX Posted May 22, 2005 Share Posted May 22, 2005 Do I sense a possible love connection here Link to post Share on other sites
Author ConfusedInOC Posted May 22, 2005 Author Share Posted May 22, 2005 LOL Link to post Share on other sites
whichwayisup Posted May 22, 2005 Share Posted May 22, 2005 Originally posted by XNemesisX Do I sense a possible love connection here LOL! I'm taken and happily married. Just trying to build up Confused's ego cuz it will make him feel good and smile! Link to post Share on other sites
Author ConfusedInOC Posted May 22, 2005 Author Share Posted May 22, 2005 Originally posted by whichwayisup LOL! I'm taken and happily married. Just trying to build up Confused's ego cuz it will make him feel good and smile! Aww, thanks. I don't need my ego boosted, I just need to REMEMBER the hard lessons I've been taught and apply them properly the next time these issues come up. That's why reading this book and learning to be more confident and self assured is my top priority. I'm a smart guy, I can figure this out. It's not rocket science we're dealing with. Just the realities of relationships and the consequences of not playing the dating game correctly. I do wish I had another chance with the ex because with the knowledge I have now I would never have made the mistakes I made. Link to post Share on other sites
dgiirl Posted May 22, 2005 Share Posted May 22, 2005 Originally posted by ConfusedInOC I do wish I had another chance with the ex because with the knowledge I have now I would never have made the mistakes I made. Like my therapist said, "You dont need HIM to make these changes and do better next time around" hehe. She also said "You're not your mother, and you dont have to be" w00t! Link to post Share on other sites
westernxer Posted May 22, 2005 Share Posted May 22, 2005 A character from an Ayn Rand novel I'm currently reading mentioned that we can combat reason with reason; when it comes to the unreasonable, we are helpless. Love definitely resides in the realm of the unreasonable. Oftentimes, we discard logic to make room for emotion. Then we get taken to the cleaners when things start to slip. I guess that's the price we pay for falling in love. It's a gamble... sometimes I wonder if it's worth it. Doesn't mean I won't seize future opportunities, but... Link to post Share on other sites
Merin Posted May 22, 2005 Share Posted May 22, 2005 Originally posted by ConfusedInOC I do wish I had another chance with the ex because with the knowledge I have now I would never have made the mistakes I made. Don't you think sometimes there are just situations that no matter what was done/not done said/not said it just wasn't going to work out? I believe everyone comes into our lives for a reason.. some stay longer than others and hopefully we learn from all of them who touched out lives in one way or another. Link to post Share on other sites
XNemesisX Posted May 22, 2005 Share Posted May 22, 2005 Originally posted by westernxer It's a gamble... sometimes I wonder if it's worth it. Word. I'm not so sure if it is or not...with every bit of happiness comes heaps of pain. Everything in life ends too. All relationships will. Even if by death, pain is sure to come. Pretty good stuff to look forward to, aint it? Link to post Share on other sites
d'Arthez Posted May 22, 2005 Share Posted May 22, 2005 Originally posted by westernxer Love definitely resides in the realm of the unreasonable. Oftentimes, we discard logic to make room for emotion. Then we get taken to the cleaners when things start to slip. I guess that's the price we pay for falling in love. It's a gamble... sometimes I wonder if it's worth it. If you are talking about passion, I do agree with you. Passion is per definition unreasonable, as it takes away from us the control we are used to having (or not having). Most people fall in lust, and the expression "falling in love" is very much mistaken, as we do have control over whom we fall in love with. If we are talking love I have to disagree with you. Love is like musical potential. You have to develop it, and not everyone can sing opera. Some men and women can love more than others. It is harsh, but true. It takes practice, and it is hard to accomplish. Nothing unreasonable about that. Link to post Share on other sites
XNemesisX Posted May 22, 2005 Share Posted May 22, 2005 Originally posted by Merin Don't you think sometimes there are just situations that no matter what was done/not done said/not said it just wasn't going to work out? I believe everyone comes into our lives for a reason.. some stay longer than others and hopefully we learn from all of them who touched out lives in one way or another. Well stated, as always Merin CIOC, I think you are worrying too much over things you can't change. I can tell in your tone of voice that you are very regretful and are *dwelling* on these "mistakes." There is no sense crying over spilled milk. Link to post Share on other sites
Author ConfusedInOC Posted May 22, 2005 Author Share Posted May 22, 2005 Originally posted by Merin Don't you think sometimes there are just situations that no matter what was done/not done said/not said it just wasn't going to work out? Yes but in this situation, I allowed things to get out of hand. I know she loves me, I just caged her in, I let her cross all my boundaries of respect and I didn't do many things right. Love her with all my heart, I did, but that isn't enough when you don't have their respect. I believe everyone comes into our lives for a reason.. some stay longer than others and hopefully we learn from all of them who touched out lives in one way or another. Boy oh boy did I learn.... Link to post Share on other sites
Author ConfusedInOC Posted May 22, 2005 Author Share Posted May 22, 2005 Originally posted by XNemesisX CIOC, I think you are worrying too much over things you can't change. I can tell in your tone of voice that you are very regretful and are *dwelling* on these "mistakes." There is no sense crying over spilled milk. Maybe. But it wasn't until I realized how wrong I had been doing everything that regret has really set in. As I said, had I known then what I know now, I wouldn't be in this situation. The good thing is that now I know, I won't repeat the same mistakes. That's key because if God ever willed us back together I would not repeat my mistakes. That's no guarantee it would work, as Merin pointed out there are people we're just not meant to be with, but at least I could rest assured knowing I did everything right and it still didn't work. That'd make things easier on me than knowing I screwed up and it didn't work. Link to post Share on other sites
Merin Posted May 22, 2005 Share Posted May 22, 2005 Originally posted by ConfusedInOC Yes but in this situation, I allowed things to get out of hand. I know she loves me, I just caged her in, I let her cross all my boundaries of respect and I didn't do many things right. Love her with all my heart, I did, but that isn't enough when you don't have their respect. Boy oh boy did I learn.... You know she loves you? IMO when someone loves you, really loves you they do not cross your boundries of respect to begin with.. one time is a mistake, two times is not caring how the other person feels. Link to post Share on other sites
moimeme Posted May 22, 2005 Share Posted May 22, 2005 Yes but in this situation, I allowed things to get out of hand. I know she loves me, I just caged her in, I let her cross all my boundaries of respect and I didn't do many things right. Love her with all my heart, I did, but that isn't enough when you don't have their respect. You seem intent on blaming yourself for this. How is she not blameworthy? And I've got news for you - you can follow this new recipe of yours perfectly with the next girl and she may dump you just the same. There is more than one brain involved in any relationship and there's no accounting for what goes on in the other person's brain. In the end, you can be perfection personified, but if the person you've picked has her own issues, you will still be hooped. Link to post Share on other sites
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