candie13 Posted October 17, 2015 Share Posted October 17, 2015 this thread makes me sick to my stomach, with all the generalizations and how men stand to loose in a divorce and "gender biases" in court. Well, why the hell is there a "gender biase" in court to begin with? Because after the divorce, the vast majority of them will fully disappear from the life of the ex wife and from the life of their offsprings. Someone has to pay for their upbringing, tuition, education and it's not fair for the mothers to do that by themselves. What about the mothers who work part time because their husbands cannot be bothered to take the children to and from school and to care for them? Don't they deserve an alimony when the other full income is vanishing and when the father shows no accountability - paternal or financial? Please, stop looking at your own plate, counting the breadcrumbs that you're loosing in the "deal" and look at what the financial, psychological and emotional efforts that women need to put in to raise children by themselves when men "go their own way" never to look back to the families that they are abandoning ! Why did the court this unjust to begin with? Because the court system looked at the behavior of the majority of divorced men and decided to protect those that they leave behind, that's why. 2 Link to post Share on other sites
candie13 Posted October 17, 2015 Share Posted October 17, 2015 I can tell you, all the speeches are nice and dandy, but please go near any school you want and look at who's taking kids to school and from school. There's your reality ! Link to post Share on other sites
Woggle Posted October 17, 2015 Share Posted October 17, 2015 this thread makes me sick to my stomach, with all the generalizations and how men stand to loose in a divorce and "gender biases" in court. Well, why the hell is there a "gender biase" in court to begin with? Because after the divorce, the vast majority of them will fully disappear from the life of the ex wife and from the life of their offsprings. Someone has to pay for their upbringing, tuition, education and it's not fair for the mothers to do that by themselves. What about the mothers who work part time because their husbands cannot be bothered to take the children to and from school and to care for them? Don't they deserve an alimony when the other full income is vanishing and when the father shows no accountability - paternal or financial? Please, stop looking at your own plate, counting the breadcrumbs that you're loosing in the "deal" and look at what the financial, psychological and emotional efforts that women need to put in to raise children by themselves when men "go their own way" never to look back to the families that they are abandoning ! Why did the court this unjust to begin with? Because the court system looked at the behavior of the majority of divorced men and decided to protect those that they leave behind, that's why. So because some men are bad fathers it is okay to screw over fathers who actually do the right thing? It's okay for fathers to have to fight tooth and nail just be in their kid's lives? The ironic thing is that it easy for men who don't care to just disappear but if you are a father who does care but has a vindictive ex it can be pure hell. Bring this up though and a man is a whiny misogynist and the only people who seem to care are the MRAs so he becomes radicalized. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
xxoo Posted October 17, 2015 Share Posted October 17, 2015 So because some men are bad fathers it is okay to screw over fathers who actually do the right thing? It's okay for fathers to have to fight tooth and nail just be in their kid's lives? The ironic thing is that it easy for men who don't care to just disappear but if you are a father who does care but has a vindictive ex it can be pure hell. Bring this up though and a man is a whiny misogynist and the only people who seem to care are the MRAs so he becomes radicalized. We can thank feminism for fighting for men and women to have equal opportunity to work, parent, and have custody. More and more divorces end in 50/50 parenting agreements because of feminism. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Rejected Rosebud Posted October 17, 2015 Share Posted October 17, 2015 I agree. Throwing all the misogynist vibes aside, I did take in many of what the site was offering. It just shows you things to look out for. It's not just "misogynist vibes" it's pretty much hating on women, you can't have missed that???? :confused: That's kind of trying to overlook racism in the KKK in order to take in other things they are offering!!! :bunny: If a person is having a wretched life in a first world country it's not usually because the other gender is messing them up, it is probably because of their own personal issues that they could work on if they weren't determined to blame others!!! 2 Link to post Share on other sites
Rejected Rosebud Posted October 17, 2015 Share Posted October 17, 2015 I view MGTOW as a way for a man to define and find value in himself without female validation. well that is just plain sad. A person who needs alot of external validation in order to "define and value" themselves has issues!! It's not gender based it is a personal problem!!! In the past, men women used to derive their sense of identity and self-worth through their marriage and children. You were a "real man woman" if you had a house, wife husband, kids, etc. See how that is exactly the sam if you are talking about women?? :confused: MGTOW essentially says that is no longer viable option for men in today's society, well I have to call bs on that, can't you look around you and see all the men who are enjoying their family lives?? It is not a viable option for YOU!! and that there are many other avenues for a man to create his identity and establish his internal sense of worth. THAT I agree with, except for that you are specifying it for men. It's the truth for everybody. I find the MGTOW way of life to be a very satisfying one. What is the difference between your way of life and the old fashioned idea of "confirmed bachelor"? Anyway I am 100% in favor of nobody getting married if they feel their lives are better single. I have no argument with that at all!! Link to post Share on other sites
jay1983 Posted October 17, 2015 Share Posted October 17, 2015 It's like a B side to feminism. A bunch white boys whining about every little stupid thing that bothers them. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Woggle Posted October 17, 2015 Share Posted October 17, 2015 These guys and what passes as modern feminism are two sides to the same coin. They should get together and spare everybody. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
xxoo Posted October 17, 2015 Share Posted October 17, 2015 Don't marry, and don't have kids. It's really ok if you don't. In fact, you shouldn't. 2 Link to post Share on other sites
Rejected Rosebud Posted October 17, 2015 Share Posted October 17, 2015 Whatever. It's just weird especially when a lot of the complaints and "issues" are truly trumped up. I said this before and I am gonna say it again even though I might get in trouble for it: in our culture men (especially white men from middle to upper class backgrounds) received ALL the perks just because ... they were white men. Yes feminism and other equal rights changes made that go away for the most part (not 100%) and these guys are mostly butthurt about it and resentful at women because of it. I'm not talking about anybody on here, I'm talking about the guys who spend alot of time complaining and hating on those sites. Anyway, you can't just expect a decent job, a nice attractive and unfat wife and a lovely clean house and good meal waiting for you when you get home from your decent job just because you happen to be born a male person!!! And no matter what those guys might think and write, we aren't getting all the decent jobs and having men pay for our lives just because we are born with vaginas either. :mad: That is just weird anyway, I don't know one single woman who is sitting around making a living off of her vagina and boobs, if they are not working it is because of a MUTUAL decision with their husband that she will stay at home with the kids. We ALL have to fight and work for what we would like our life to look like, for most of us middle class types a failure in that area is on us personally. 3 Link to post Share on other sites
Woggle Posted October 17, 2015 Share Posted October 17, 2015 Talk to some men who have been through the divorce court meat grinder and you will see it is not just whining. This includes black and hispanic men as well. They get screwed in my family court as well. 2 Link to post Share on other sites
xxoo Posted October 17, 2015 Share Posted October 17, 2015 Talk to some men who have been through the divorce court meat grinder and you will see it is not just whining. This includes black and hispanic men as well. They get screwed in my family court as well. There are women and men on both sides who've gotten a raw deal. Divorce with kids sucks, any way you cut it. When courts are forced to get involved, it means the parents could not work it out for themselves. It's not going to be pretty. But the laws are written to make things more fair overall, not less. And the post-feminism changes to family law benefit men who want to be active parents (and women who want to be employed). I don't understand the rage at feminism on this matter. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
sambolini Posted October 17, 2015 Share Posted October 17, 2015 We can thank feminism for fighting for men and women to have equal opportunity to work, parent, and have custody. More and more divorces end in 50/50 parenting agreements because of feminism. That was not my experience during divorce. I had to lawyer up and spend thousands just to get 35% time with my child from an ex wife who had an affair, thereby causing the marital breakdown. The courts were 100% biased in her favor. And I live in a blue, progressive state. At any rate, at this point it's all moot. What's done is done. I have 50/50 time now, but that took even more fighting to get. Now I don't have to fight anymore, things have equalized, and my ex and I co-parent well. The catch is that it took four years of near constant battles to get there. But it was a valuable learning experience. Marriage is not a wise investment for me. I have no disdain for people who choose to marry. It's simply a choice I don't wish to make for myself a second time. I don't see feminism being the problem. I see archaic laws that view women as only being the sole caregiver in every household as being the problem. The issue is that it gives preference to women financially and in terms of time with children over their husbands/fathers. I would hope that feminists are astute enough to realize that and actively work to equalize laws in all states. But I can't depend on others to work towards progress in my favor. I have to do that for myself. So I do. As always, YMMV. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Woggle Posted October 17, 2015 Share Posted October 17, 2015 There are women and men on both sides who've gotten a raw deal. Divorce with kids sucks, any way you cut it. When courts are forced to get involved, it means the parents could not work it out for themselves. It's not going to be pretty. But the laws are written to make things more fair overall, not less. And the post-feminism changes to family law benefit men who want to be active parents (and women who want to be employed). I don't understand the rage at feminism on this matter. Maybe feminism didn't cause it but they certainly fight men who want to changed the system. They act as if fathers only role is to donate the sperm, sometimes send the check and then go away. When you see men in tears because their vindictive ex makes a simply phone call on their child's birthday into an ordeal even though he has never been late in sending support and does everything in his power to be a good father. She just hates him for god knows what reason so she uses the child as a weapon against him and there is nothing he can do about it. When you witness this then tell me it is just men whining about their lost male priviledge. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
xxoo Posted October 17, 2015 Share Posted October 17, 2015 Anyone who believes you can be married and raise kids without ever supporting your spouse is living in a fantasy world. Raising a family comes with a lot of unexpected obstacles and life twists. Rigidity and fear is not going to predict a successful outcome. Flexibility and team approach are more likely to be successful. Thus, men and women with fear of partnering should not partner. It's as simple as that. 4 Link to post Share on other sites
xxoo Posted October 17, 2015 Share Posted October 17, 2015 Maybe feminism didn't cause it but they certainly fight men who want to changed the system. They act as if fathers only role is to donate the sperm, sometimes send the check and then go away. When you see men in tears because their vindictive ex makes a simply phone call on their child's birthday into an ordeal even though he has never been late in sending support and does everything in his power to be a good father. She just hates him for god knows what reason so she uses the child as a weapon against him and there is nothing he can do about it. When you witness this then tell me it is just men whining about their lost male priviledge. Leaders of modern feminism include Sheryl Sandberg and Anne-Marie Slaughter. These are women who've modeled marriage and raising children with 2 careers parents. Their message regarding fathers is clear: women need to expect their male partners to be equal parents! Only when men are expected to do their fair share as involved parents (fair share of dr. appts, carpool lines, taking days off for sick kids, parent-teacher conferences, etc) can women truly have success in the workplace. Woggle, have you read articles by these women? 4 Link to post Share on other sites
Woggle Posted October 17, 2015 Share Posted October 17, 2015 Leaders of modern feminism include Sheryl Sandberg and Anne-Marie Slaughter. These are women who've modeled marriage and raising children with 2 careers parents. Their message regarding fathers is clear: women need to expect their male partners to be equal parents! Only when men are expected to do their fair share as involved parents (fair share of dr. appts, carpool lines, taking days off for sick kids, parent-teacher conferences, etc) can women truly have success in the workplace. Woggle, have you read articles by these women? These women are feminists but they don't control the main feminist narrative. The ones who control the narrative are the ones who if my friend told his story online they would post a meme about how they are drinking his delicious male tears. They are obsessed with drinking and bathing in male tears and feminists who are not misandrist enough for them are ostracized. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
xxoo Posted October 17, 2015 Share Posted October 17, 2015 These women are feminists but they don't control the main feminist narrative. The ones who control the narrative are the ones who if my friend told his story online they would post a meme about how they are drinking his delicious male tears. They are obsessed with drinking and bathing in male tears and feminists who are not misandrist enough for them are ostracized. You are mistaking extreme bloggers for respected leaders of modern feminism. 5 Link to post Share on other sites
Author WonderKid Posted October 17, 2015 Author Share Posted October 17, 2015 But this also reads like somehow it's a special case when a woman gets the wrong end of the stick. That's just ridiculous. You're "not excluding that"? Well...thanks? What I meant is that I am not excluding the facts that women can get the wrong end of the stick. But I wasn't discussing that. I think it's perfectly reasonable to want to argue for removing gender bias from divorce court, for example. But issues such as that one doesn't seem to be raised just as that, do they? They're almost always raised within a contextual atmosphere of women taking men to the cleaners, women using men, women getting all these mysterious benefits that men don't get out of marriage, politics, life, women basically being privileged and men being downtrodden. That is really ignorant of history. It's not really ignorant. What is even funnier is that the men pay for the wedding too. Lol Yes women do get passes in life more then men do some just don't realize it. Women are not held responsible for many things they can do. I'm pretty sure I am not making these things up. Things don't always have to be in the context of anti-feminism. Feminists are actually allies in this ideological battle for equal rights. But they're a more convenient bugbear for these guys than a calm "let's battle through the system", and feminists naturally respond to the bullshxt that gets spouted at them by these movements by turning away. Not very surprising, I think. I mean, what you said about feminism upthread, being about "I don't need a man" - that's just ignorant. There are fringe people who say that stuff, as there are fringe people who call for a return to removing women's right to vote. Lumping everyone in together is a crappy manipulative tool to sway the angry masses, not a move toward serious change, and it's why I don't take MRA and MGTOW seriously at all. It's just a blind for being anti-feminist, not for improving the welfare of men in a real way. Bah. C'mon man! I used the "I Don't Need A Man" thing as a response to a reply stating that all the guys in the MGHOW were "butthurt" individuals. So I said the same can be applied to feminism: because while you are saying feminism presents a noble cause of the female welfare, it is not always used that way. It is very easy to overlook the welfare of a male, because we are male, we aren't allowed to have those problems I suppose. We are supposed to suck it up, grow a pair, and move on without complaining or having any other suggestion. Feminism was made the same way: women were not satisfied with being treated unequally, they whined, complained, and made a movement. It didn't come out of nowhere. I can say, feminists are anti-male. But I don't view it that way because I know all feminists are not like that. I actually support the movement. I try to look at both sides of the gender ordeals. But when you mention MRA or MGHOW, automatically it's anti-feminism. It can never be males in there just for the sole purpose of male welfare or well-being, right? Link to post Share on other sites
Author WonderKid Posted October 17, 2015 Author Share Posted October 17, 2015 I can tell you, all the speeches are nice and dandy, but please go near any school you want and look at who's taking kids to school and from school. There's your reality ! I can tell you, driving kids to and from school is good and all, but at the end of that ride, some (because I have to say some) get to go back home to 7 hrs all to themselves. Lol 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Author WonderKid Posted October 17, 2015 Author Share Posted October 17, 2015 A man already traditionally pays for the wedding and the ring. He ends up paying heavily in the divorce too; and potentially put him in financial ruin. I am saying this for those marriages, NOT successful ones. Seems like people treat these experiences of men like they are irrelevant or not there. And if they are, they are complaining, whining, bitter. I guess those reactions are only acceptable for women--even though guys are human too. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
BlueIris Posted October 17, 2015 Share Posted October 17, 2015 A man already traditionally pays for the wedding and the ring. He ends up paying heavily in the divorce too; and potentially put him in financial ruin. I am saying this for those marriages, NOT successful ones. Seems like people treat these experiences of men like they are irrelevant or not there. And if they are, they are complaining, whining, bitter. I guess those reactions are only acceptable for women--even though guys are human too. No, the bride's family traditionally pays for the wedding, groom's ring (if there is one) and households (trousseau). The groom's family traditionally pays for the bride's rings, the rehearsal dinner and the honeymoon. The community/guests give gifts to help the young couple to get started. Also, on average and traditionally, divorced men are wealthier 5 years after divorce than divorced women are. This makes sense given that women often has more parenting time post-divorce, negatively impacting mothers' earning ability more than fathers', on average. I do think that men MIGHT think that they suffer more than women do in divorce. Maybe they do suffer more. I think that there are many reasons that might be true. As an example, when I got divorced I was a stay at home mom. (We divorced, I filed, because my H opposed my working... weird, I know.) Of course he fared better than I did financially because he had a 13 year head start on earning and seniority. My H was upset that he had to "give up" a significant portion of the fruits of his labors for the preceding 13 years- half the wealth. I understood. So I offered that we each keep the fruits of our labors. He'd get all the money and I'd get the kids. He didn't like that, but we never had that discussion again. 2 Link to post Share on other sites
Author WonderKid Posted October 17, 2015 Author Share Posted October 17, 2015 Then you are the good one of the bunch I know there's great women and marriages out there, and, divorces that ended on a more leveled note. I was speaking of the ones that were not good. You are right with the wedding traditions. I should've meant, typically, because typically the guy does pay for the ring. Link to post Share on other sites
autumnnight Posted October 17, 2015 Share Posted October 17, 2015 So because some men are bad fathers it is okay to screw over fathers who actually do the right thing? It's okay for fathers to have to fight tooth and nail just be in their kid's lives? The ironic thing is that it easy for men who don't care to just disappear but if you are a father who does care but has a vindictive ex it can be pure hell. Bring this up though and a man is a whiny misogynist and the only people who seem to care are the MRAs so he becomes radicalized. So because women women are bad, Wes should hates them all? Pot, meet kettle Link to post Share on other sites
Got it Posted October 18, 2015 Share Posted October 18, 2015 These women are feminists but they don't control the main feminist narrative. The ones who control the narrative are the ones who if my friend told his story online they would post a meme about how they are drinking his delicious male tears. They are obsessed with drinking and bathing in male tears and feminists who are not misandrist enough for them are ostracized. No matter how many times you have argued this is isn't true. You are hell bent on believing that the "modern" feminism is these extreme views regardless of any actual validity to it. These are not the feminist views. Just like all beliefs there are extremists but they are not the norm. And if you belief what you read on the internet from every Tom, Dick and Harry troll that write something ridiculous you are going to be a very sadden and cynical person. They are not the norm, they are trolls. I wish you could let go over this narrative in your head, leave your past in the past and stop seeing things so colored by a very small and misguided group. I get it that you unfortunately were exposed to them by a very personal person in your life, and through this person other birds of the same feather. But that doesn't make it true, the majority, or real. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
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