Pain won't go away

[Mr Mind of Shazam]

I'm very sorry that you're going through this.

 

This is largely the reason I am against reconciliation, as a general principle. It's just too much energy, work, and effort compared to what you get out of it: if successful, in most cases you still have something less than you did before.

 

I've never known a woman that was worth enduring all that energy.

 

No doubt sometimes it can work and sometimes you can wind up with what you had before, or even better. But that's not the way to bet it. The smart money is that you have to put a "10" of effort on a 1 to 10 scale over an extended period of time, and in the end you get something less than a 10 (sometimes significantly less) for all your work.

 

Start with someone new without all the baggage, and you can restore balance.

 

That's just how I feel. Good luck.

[fellini]

This is just plain nonsense.

 

Good decent honest people do not have trouble grasping any of these things.

It is that good decent honest people don't expect others to be the same as them, show compassion and understanding for difference, and exhibit the capacities to work with people as good or better or worse than they are because they have a humanity which speaks volumes.

 

No sir, what you describe are fools. Good decent honest people have faith in humankind, have the capacity to live with contradiction in themselves and especially in others, and do not expect EVERYONE to be good decent and honest and because they do not expect it, do not run away from everyone they encounter who is not good decent and kind.

 

Good decent and honest people are neither fools, fooled or foolish.

 

 

One of the challenges decent, kind, caring and honest people have is they think that other people are also decent, kind, honest etc etc and think that all they have to do is say some magic phrase or do some act of kindness and the person that is treating them bad will suddenly realize their bad actions and will do a 180 and start doing the right thing.

 

 

Good, decent people have trouble grasping that some people are just selfish and self-serving and don't have any problem screwing other people over to get what they want.

 

 

Good decent people also spend tremendous amounts of time and energy searching for the perfect solution that won't cause anyone any grief or stress or upset anyone.

 

 

As a result they often get ground into the mud and made to eat worms for a long, long time until they finally realize that the pain and torment of staying far surpasses the stress and anxiety they will feel about upsetting the fruitbasket when they make their getaway.

Edited October 19, 2015 by fellini

[Mrs. John Adams]

I'm very sorry that you're going through this.

 

This is largely the reason I am against reconciliation, as a general principle. It's just too much energy, work, and effort compared to what you get out of it: if successful, in most cases you still have something less than you did before.

 

I've never known a woman that was worth enduring all that energy.

 

No doubt sometimes it can work and sometimes you can wind up with what you had before, or even better. But that's not the way to bet it. The smart money is that you have to put a "10" of effort on a 1 to 10 scale over an extended period of time, and in the end you get something less than a 10 (sometimes significantly less) for all your work.

 

Start with someone new without all the baggage, and you can restore balance.

 

That's just how I feel. Good luck.

 

You feel what you feel...and I cannot dispute how you feel and would not even attempt to...but I will share with you that what you have written here applies to every relationship. Every relationship..new or old....requires energy, work and effort....whether it has been tainted by infidelity or not. I would even venture to say..if you are not applying energy, work and effort...you may find yourself experiencing infidelity.

 

I can only speak for us... But we don't have less than we had before....but some of that could be because we have 43 years together...and despite the infidelity..have worked hard to maintain a very caring, respectful, loving relationship.

 

I understand that not all relationships are good...even those that do not have infidelity involved.

 

I will also point out that starting over with a new relationship does not always mean infidelity won't touch that relationship. Unfortunately... We have no guarantees that a relationship will remain infidelity free. We trust our spouse to stay true to us...but we have no guarantee.

 

Infidelity may indeed be more than you can bear...it may indeed be the end of a relationship and if that is what is best for that individual...then it is the right choice. Some folks may decide reconciliation is the right choice for them. I am careful to tell people...the choice is yours and there is no right or wrong answer. There is the best answer for you.

 

Relationships are complicated at best...and we don't know all the dynamics from a few posts made by one individual in the relationship. So we are at a disadvantage. All we can do is offer our opinions, our advice and our support.

[fellini]

It's just too much energy, work, and effort compared to what you get out of it: if successful, in most cases you still have something less than you did before.

 

I've never known a woman that was worth enduring all that energy.

 

 

I have never been with a woman that was not worth the energy I put into our relationship. It didn't matter if we lasted a day, a week, or 15 years. I enjoyed each and everyone, and never regretted having been with any one of them. Including the one I am currently reconciling with. I think some people expect to get something out of giving - a payoff - and some people find that the enjoyment is in the giving to others.

[drifter777]

So yet another thread to put into my "reasons you should not stay with cheaters" box.

 

Dude, leave her. Seriously, she has already stolen years of your life, don't let her steal your manhood as well.

Yes - this a thousand times over!

 

I do understand that some men cannot leave their family and are willing to trade their happiness to give their children a stable home life. I think they are wrong, but I understand. The vast majority of the rest of the men who stay are settling for less than they thought they were getting. Some can accept that and can move on just fine. The rest live with a certain amount of torment for what she did and self-hatred for staying with a cheater.

[drifter777]

This is just plain nonsense.

 

Good decent honest people do not have trouble grasping any of these things.

It is that good decent honest people don't expect others to be the same as them, show compassion and understanding for difference, and exhibit the capacities to work with people as good or better or worse than they are because they have a humanity which speaks volumes.

 

No sir, what you describe are fools. Good decent honest people have faith in humankind, have the capacity to live with contradiction in themselves and especially in others, and do not expect EVERYONE to be good decent and honest and because they do not expect it, do not run away from everyone they encounter who is not good decent and kind.

 

Good decent and honest people are neither fools, fooled or foolish.

 

But when first starting out in life doesn't everyone want to find the good in others & expects to be treated with respect? I don't think these people qualify as fools.

 

I like where you are going with this and I believe it's a very solid life philosophy. But it's really hard to be a "good, decent person" as you describe when you are young and inexperienced with the realities of life. We love and expect our partners to keep their promises out of the love we believe they have for us. No one can seriously say that these people are fools. Then their partner cheats on them - brings a 3rd person into your sexual relationship. That wasn't the plan, she broke her vow. Living through that devastation, whether BH stays or not, scars him for life. Was that because he was a fool? Or because he thought that his morals & values were also hers, and he was blind-sided by the ugliest part of married life.

 

When this good and decent man, who was devastated and permanently scared by his wife's cheating, finds the strength and courage to move on with his life he then can become the kind of person you describe as:

 

"Good decent honest people do not have trouble grasping any of these things. It is that good decent honest people don't expect others to be the same as them, show compassion and understanding for difference, and exhibit the capacities to work with people as good or better or worse than they are"

 

Again, I believe you are capturing an important concept; I just think that experiencing a traumatic hardship is required for that good and decent person to gain the perspective that you describe.

 

OP must move on with his life whether he divorces her or not. He must care about himself and his own healing more than he cares about her. He needs to understand that children being raised by a broken daddy who becomes sullen and withdrawn by just seeing their mother is much, much harder on them than a happy daddy who can devote the love, security, and happiness they need from him.

 

OP: you are sick and you owe it to your kids to get well. Counseling for you plus a hard 180 is an ideal place to start.

[oldshirt]

 

 

 

Again, I believe you are capturing an important concept; I just think that experiencing a traumatic hardship is required for that good and decent person to gain the perspective that you describe.

 

.

 

Well said.

 

 

Good, decent people can become wise and experience and recognize the world for what it is.

 

 

But their challenge is that their default setting is set to believing that other are as good and decent as they are until they do something really bad to them.

 

 

and even then, many good, decent people will think that those that wronged them will try to make it right in the same fashion that they would try to make right with someone they may have inadvertently wronged.

 

 

This is a challenge and a burden that good, decent people carry. It is not a "fault" per se and it is not a foolishness. It is a part of their life that they have to work a little harder at than others.

[fellini]

Again, I believe you are capturing an important concept; I just think that experiencing a traumatic hardship is required for that good and decent person to gain the perspective that you describe.

 

Fair enough. But i see experiencing a traumatic hardship as the litmus test rather than a necessary passage into good decency honest. By good, I do not mean behaves, by decent, I mean at the core, and by honest, of course, I don't mean just someone who tells the truth but is a sincere person.

[Mr Mind of Shazam]

I have never been with a woman that was not worth the energy I put into our relationship. It didn't matter if we lasted a day, a week, or 15 years. I enjoyed each and everyone, and never regretted having been with any one of them. Including the one I am currently reconciling with. I think some people expect to get something out of giving - a payoff - and some people find that the enjoyment is in the giving to others.

It's not that, exactly.

 

There's a baseline amount of energy you have to put into each relationship if it is going to work. If you don't, the relationship can't endure.

 

I'm saying adding anything above that baseline is probably not worth the effort and energy.

 

So you have reconciliation being E+x = R (the baseline energy plus any extra effort = maintaining the relationship), and cultivating a new relationship without that burden as E = R (the baseline, without any additional effort, maintaining the relationship).

 

It's clear to be that the latter is preferable, it's a more economical (and wise) use of effort and energy.

[Mr Mind of Shazam]

You feel what you feel...and I cannot dispute how you feel and would not even attempt to...but I will share with you that what you have written here applies to every relationship. Every relationship..new or old....requires energy, work and effort....whether it has been tainted by infidelity or not. I would even venture to say..if you are not applying energy, work and effort...you may find yourself experiencing infidelity.

 

I can only speak for us... But we don't have less than we had before....but some of that could be because we have 43 years together...and despite the infidelity..have worked hard to maintain a very caring, respectful, loving relationship.

 

I understand that not all relationships are good...even those that do not have infidelity involved.

 

I will also point out that starting over with a new relationship does not always mean infidelity won't touch that relationship. Unfortunately... We have no guarantees that a relationship will remain infidelity free. We trust our spouse to stay true to us...but we have no guarantee.

 

Infidelity may indeed be more than you can bear...it may indeed be the end of a relationship and if that is what is best for that individual...then it is the right choice. Some folks may decide reconciliation is the right choice for them. I am careful to tell people...the choice is yours and there is no right or wrong answer. There is the best answer for you.

 

Relationships are complicated at best...and we don't know all the dynamics from a few posts made by one individual in the relationship. So we are at a disadvantage. All we can do is offer our opinions, our advice and our support.

Your observations aren't important to my analysis, really, and don't undermine it.

 

I explicitly said that maintaining a relationship requires energy.

 

It's that bearing the burden of reconciliation after the affair is additional energy, and that added energy isn't a factor when cultivating a new relationship.

 

It has nothing to do with infidelity and the second relationship. If that happens, you determine a new calculation. But the proper comparison is the energy required to reconcile vs the energy required to maintain a new relationship. All else being comparable, it takes less of an investment to get success with the latter.

[Mrs. John Adams]

I didn't realize i was undermining anything...if i was then please accept my apology. I thought i was very courteous and respectful in voicing my opinion.

 

I disagree with you but i was not condescending to you as you have been to me.

 

It is all in the perception i guess.....

[Mr Mind of Shazam]

I didn't realize i was undermining anything...if i was then please accept my apology. I thought i was very courteous and respectful in voicing my opinion.

 

I disagree with you but i was not condescending to you as you have been to me.

 

It is all in the perception i guess.....

No need to apologize. Reasonable people can disagree, and I don't think I was condescending. I just really disagree with your observation.

[BeholdtheMan]

OP...grab your crotch. Do you still feel anything? Hopefully, those sensitive round things are still there

[Lion Heart]

Fellini, I do not have ignorance of the approach that me or my wife should take. I have went to multiple counselors and read lots of material online *( I read online articles and forums for at least 2 hours everyday or more depending on how much I am obsessing that day). It is not a matter of knowing--it is a matter of reconciling that with my heart. I KNOW she is not doing what she is doing and I know that I am enabling that by not requiring it but in my mind, it is either give it some time or give up. That is hard when I still look at this woman and try to figure out what happened to her character--it does not seem like her. I know she did it and she deceived and so on, but it just doesn't fit with who she was for the first 8 years I knew her. So it is a lot to absorb. I have literally lost my mind to a point. I know there are things I can do but they are much harder sitting where I am. I don't even know what normal is anymore.

 

Dear hubster

I've read your whole thread and completely understand your confusion. I was there too. I'm sure others can relate to the weird R effort of your WW. I'll cut to the chase and ask whether you think WW is just nowhere NEAR ready for a true R?

 

If she's dealing with her own sh** (abortion, A, losing OM, FOO issues) then she may not be ready for a very long time to recommit to M.

 

My advice is to put that on the table. She needs help. You need help. You can give her "What a Wayward Spouse needs to do..." and say when she's ready to DO ALL that list faithfully then she can approach you about that. But you need to heal yourself and follow through with NC in the home. You will plan for separation and D because you will heal yourself as you SHOULD. As time goes on, you may not be willing to R at all. That'll be all on her.

 

It's been 6 months of he**. Add the no intimacy period to that. She's alot further along than you.

 

NC is harder in the home but as long as you follow NC through vigilantly, you will find yourself more than ready to leave. I'm with the others in that she needs you to fully leave the M to wake up but I'm not sure if she will.

 

Whilst you're in the home separate everything from finances to child care.

 

What makes me sway this direction for your situation is that she is in NO WAY TRANSPARENT. NC. This is the very LEAST she should be to have you both say you're Rg. She's simply not.

WW is just "there" and in reaction to her! You are in limbo.

 

You are entitled to take charge of your life and change your agreement. He** she changed the marraige state entirely without even consulting you. Time to protect yourself.

 

You can do it.

Lion Heart.

[fellini]

Your attempt to reduce love and desire and commitment to an economy of energy efficiency reminds me of the story of the two friends (one a seasoned climber and the other a novice) standing before a mountain.

 

"Shouldn't we approach it from other there, where it's less steep?" asks the novice.

 

"Well that depends", replies the veteran, "Do you want to climb this mountain, or just get to the top?"

 

 

 

 

It's not that, exactly.

 

There's a baseline amount of energy you have to put into each relationship if it is going to work. If you don't, the relationship can't endure.

 

I'm saying adding anything above that baseline is probably not worth the effort and energy.

 

So you have reconciliation being E+x = R (the baseline energy plus any extra effort = maintaining the relationship), and cultivating a new relationship without that burden as E = R (the baseline, without any additional effort, maintaining the relationship).

 

It's clear to be that the latter is preferable, it's a more economical (and wise) use of effort and energy.

Edited October 20, 2015 by fellini

[Mr Mind of Shazam]

Your attempt to reduce love and desire and commitment to an economy of energy efficiency reminds me of the story of the two friends (one a seasoned climber and the other a novice) standing before a mountain.

 

"Shouldn't we approach it from other there, where it's less steep?" asks the novice.

 

"Well that depends", replies the veteran, "Do you want to climb this mountain, or just get to the top?"

It's not about love, commitment, or desire. All those three things can be present, but that's peripheral to reconciliation, the issue here.

 

A person can have love, commitment, and desire and fail at reconciliation.

 

My point is only that in many cases it's not worth the added burden. That's true even if there is deep, sincere love, commitment, and desire.

[tilby]

Dear Hubster

 

I read your post and it hit a chord with me. I was there too and i found out about my ex cheating with his now wife in the middle of family court for custody of our baby. I was devastated beyond belief. I'm very sorry to hear that your wife has betrayed you in such a hurtful manner. There will be some very hard times ahead but stay strong, allow yourself to grieve but remember the pain will go away and you will be able to find happiness again, with or without your marriage. Prayers are with you.

[sandylee1]

I agree with you jbrent...but HE agreed to stay and give her a year. So I addressed this with the fact that this seemed to be his decision. I would not have agreed to give her a year considering her present behavior...but it was what he chose.

 

If she is making no attempt to help him in his healing...I would not give her a year...but that was his choice.

 

He's entitled to change his mind if she isn't doing the work required for R, that's the risk she took in being unfaithful.

 

He agreed to give her a year........and she vowed fidelity when they married.

[Mrs. John Adams]

Sandylee.....of course he can change his mind.....i said i based my answer on the fact he agreed to stay. I don't disagree with your statement.

[sandylee1]

It's not about love, commitment, or desire. All those three things can be present, but that's peripheral to reconciliation, the issue here.

 

A person can have love, commitment, and desire and fail at reconciliation.

 

My point is only that in many cases it's not worth the added burden. That's true even if there is deep, sincere love, commitment, and desire.

 

 

 

I think mind of shaman is simply saying that it's easier to start a new relationship, than to reconcile where there has been infidelity. While there is no guarantee that the new person won't be unfaithful, the WS has shown you that they are capable of infidelity and all that comes with it.

 

You start a fresh with a new partner. It makes perfect sense.

 

I certainly think in this case that the WW is not showing remorse and wants her affair to be forgotten about. If she's depressed because of the abortion, she only has herself to blame. Infact that depression would annoy the hell out of me. Nowhere do I see that she's thinking about your pain.

 

The total irresponsible behavior of getting pregnant says it all. No sex with you for 18 months and she gets pregnant by her affair partner. A lot of men would not even think of reconciling when there was a pregnancy involved . I don't think she deserves you at all.

[Mr Mind of Shazam]

I think mind of shaman is simply saying that it's easier to start a new relationship, than to reconcile where there has been infidelity. While there is no guarantee that the new person won't be unfaithful, the WS has shown you that they are capable of infidelity and all that comes with it.

 

You start a fresh with a new partner. It makes perfect sense.

Yep, that's exactly what I am saying. Thank you!

[Bufo]

This post may seem a little odd but bear with me. Your problem now isn't infidelity per se but her refusal to do anything to help you or help herself.

 

Infidelity is in the past now and you cannot change that. She lacks remorse (not regret for what she doesn't have any more) without that she's still in an affair mindset where all that matters is how she feels.

 

You need to escape infidelity. She is still in that mindset. Her concerns

are all about her and none is for you. Your goal should be to free yourself from infidelity whether that is divorce or reconciliation. You cannot force her to reconcile (if or mc are simply means to that end, not ends by themselves) if she does not want to do so. You can offer it to her with a list of terms you need which if she accepts will let you know she's at least interested and trying

 

Asking her to attend counseling without telling her failure to do so will mean you understand that she is not interested in reconciliation is meaningless. So far she has suffered few consequences that aren't self inflicted (ie guilt) so she sees no gain in acquiescing to your requests.

 

She also needs to understand that for her own mental health she needs counseling. She needs to discover what let her have the affair. She needs to discover why she found lying to you for so long to be so easy. And she needs counseling about her lost abortion guilt. You can't do any of these things for her. She can't do them for herself (as your posts have demonstrated).

 

If she continues to refuse then your path is clear: divorce is inevitable unless you want to live in a world where a good day means you're in Limbo and a bad

day means you're back in Hell.