I need........... support

[Carriages]

One unfortunate - but not uncommon - aspect of this is the probability of his wife getting hurt either way. Neither divorce nor a guilt-inspired reconciliation with a WS who really doesn't want to be there usually spells happy ending for the BS...

 

Mr. Lucky

 

This is exactly right. The only "good" outcome for my wife is if I came back with genuine remorse, an awakening, and an unshakeable desire to create an authentic, respectful and loving marriage.

 

Oh, I'd still have my moments. I know myself too well to think my mind wouldn't occasionally wonder "what if", or even scream to get out of there whenever I don't feel understood. But as long as I could trust myself to behave (in all uses of the word) and keep moving forwards... that might just be enough.

 

But I don't trust myself. Not quite yet anyway. And the "elephants in the room" - that were such a factor all through my marriage - would somehow have to be put into a different context.

 

Which leaves both me, and my wife languishing for now, but at least I feel now I'm doing *something*. I'm here. I'm spending time at the family home. We are talking about relationship issues, when we have the strength. And I'm reading every resource I can find time for.

 

One other point that I think needs clarifying. I don't think anyone here - me definitely included - would "blame" a BS for an affair, or even say it's in some way partially excusable. But the circumstances that make an affair likely to happen can definitely, and in most cases probably are, created by two. By the time my affair happened, I was literally physically sick from the stress of my marriage and home life. I didn't care if my marriage ended (in fact I thought I wanted it to). I actually see the part I played in getting to this point as my biggest sin, bigger than the affair itself.

[qubist]

One unfortunate - but not uncommon - aspect of this is the probability of his wife getting hurt either way. Neither divorce nor a guilt-inspired reconciliation with a WS who really doesn't want to be there usually spells happy ending for the BS...

 

Mr. Lucky

I agree, a guilt-inspired R ( if I would call it a R) would not work. I think that the OP is still under the influence of the Affair fog, maybe when he wakes up he would consider a real R. as for right now since the wife is fighting for their marriage, I really don't think he should D

[Carriages]

I agree, a guilt-inspired R ( if I would call it a R) would not work. I think that the OP is still under the influence of the Affair fog, maybe when he wakes up he would consider a real R. as for right now since the wife is fighting for their marriage, I really don't think he should D

 

It's true, I am still under "the influence". I woke up this morning with such a sense of longing, it took everything I had not to txt my AP. Unfortunately I had also been reading a book from an author someone recommended above, which talked about a "love map" as being crucial for a happy union. This was something I never had with my wife... but did with my AP.. although I didn't recognize it as such at the time.

 

Sorry, having a bad moment. And my wife just txt'd wanting to know if I wanted to go on an outing with her and our youngest daughter.

[Sassy Girl]

This is exactly right. The only "good" outcome for my wife is if I came back with genuine remorse, an awakening, and an unshakeable desire to create an authentic, respectful and loving marriage.

 

Oh, I'd still have my moments. I know myself too well to think my mind wouldn't occasionally wonder "what if", or even scream to get out of there whenever I don't feel understood. But as long as I could trust myself to behave (in all uses of the word) and keep moving forwards... that might just be enough.

 

But I don't trust myself. Not quite yet anyway. And the "elephants in the room" - that were such a factor all through my marriage - would somehow have to be put into a different context.

 

Which leaves both me, and my wife languishing for now, but at least I feel now I'm doing *something*. I'm here. I'm spending time at the family home. We are talking about relationship issues, when we have the strength. And I'm reading every resource I can find time for.

 

One other point that I think needs clarifying. I don't think anyone here - me definitely included - would "blame" a BS for an affair, or even say it's in some way partially excusable. But the circumstances that make an affair likely to happen can definitely, and in most cases probably are, created by two. By the time my affair happened, I was literally physically sick from the stress of my marriage and home life. I didn't care if my marriage ended (in fact I thought I wanted it to). I actually see the part I played in getting to this point as my biggest sin, bigger than the affair itself.

 

You've said this a few times now, and you have to stop doing this. Yes accept responsibility for your share of the marriage issues. But don't minimise the betrayal of an affair.

 

And it doesn't really matter what you see as the biggest sin. It matters what has damaged your wife and marriage the most, and I most definitely assure you, it was your affair. You need to own that.

[Ladyjane14]

Lucy,

 

People DO change, and people often find out what is really important to them. Just because there were problems before, doesn't mean they can't be solved. Carriages is still in a bit of fog and turmoil, but certainly heading in the right direction. It is hard to jump out of an affair and back to the marriage, but he has a good start. He just needs to keep going and focus on what's really important. Sure, it will take time, but I could argue strongly not to do anything that will be a barrier to reconciliation.

 

I think that what some people aren't understanding is that it's a process. It starts with "am I in or am I out?". You find all that other stuff out as you're going through each stage of recovery. Nobody is guaranteed the outcome of their choosing. You can't sit out flour, eggs, butter, etc. on the counter and call it cookies. You haven't MADE the cookies yet.

 

From "am I in or am I out?", if you choose "in", the next step is "I'm pulling out all the stops, learning everything I can, and giving it 100%". That becomes your sticking place when times get tough.. and they do.

 

As you build skills together, you make progress together. The wayward learns to adopt the role of healer, the betrayed spouse learns to withhold the urge to punish. Trust establishes a foothold on voluntary transparency, countless conversations, and all words and deeds being the verifiable truth. It's a messy process, some steps forward other steps back; highs are high, lows are low. But there's no way to know what can be accomplished unless you actually ENGAGE the process.

 

If you make it through, you finally understand ripened, committed love and deeper intimacy than what you imagined. Her struggles and triumphs are yours; yours are hers. It becomes one and the same.

[Mr. Lucky]

But I don't trust myself. Not quite yet anyway. And the "elephants in the room" - that were such a factor all through my marriage - would somehow have to be put into a different context.

 

Which leaves both me, and my wife languishing for now, but at least I feel now I'm doing *something*. I'm here. I'm spending time at the family home. We are talking about relationship issues, when we have the strength. And I'm reading every resource I can find time for.

 

Don't remember all 13 pages of info but is there a reason you're not advocating marriage counseling? As a BS, I took my WS's resistance to MC as a bad sign (I was right ) and you seem to be embarking on self-designed independent study course.

 

Are you afraid you'd have to admit to some uncomfortable truths ?

 

Mr. Lucky

[carhill]

I don't remember how old the OP is but most of my male friends (50's to 70's) have opined that marriage counseling is, to put it in forum-friendly terms, 'stupid'. How do I know this? Well, when we were in MC for my EA and for over a year, I mentioned that and thus was their response. Not very supportive!

[sophinla]

OP, you are looking for something that doesn't exist, some sort of guarantee that a partnership will some how work out and be lasting.

 

There is no guarantee, nothing in life is guaranteed. That's why marriage is called a commitment. It is a conscious decision to remain truthful and committed to another person, everyday, through good times and bad.

[OldRover]

This will be my last attempt....

 

When you have just betrayed the person you vowed to love and broken your vows, you do NOT list all the ways they made you do it. You just don't.

 

A humble, empathetic, remorseful person will work on restoring trust and helping their betrayed partner heal FIRST, and then, without blame, they can jointly work on the marriage.

 

I don't care about consensus. Any "expert" who says one should respond to infidelity by listing the ways that the BS fell short needs their "expert" title toss in the trash.

 

I'll accept this as your last attempt, as we just do not agree, and so be it. You just can't treat part of the issue, that doesn't work. No one said that the OP should not totally accept responsibility for the affair, and he has. One needs to get to the root of the problems and solve ALL of them, not just the obvious ones.

[OldRover]

"I'm sorry Ma'am, your son just died while driving. Now let's talk about the broken tail light....."

 

In the meantime, the "ma'am" just died because no one attended to her bleeding and unable to breath. Ya gotta treat ALL the issues to stay alive.

[OldRover]

If my WH would have addressed our M problems after his A I would have laughed in his face. Are u kidding me?

 

Are you still married?

[Carriages]

OP, you are looking for something that doesn't exist, some sort of guarantee that a partnership will some how work out and be lasting.

 

There is no guarantee, nothing in life is guaranteed. That's why marriage is called a commitment. It is a conscious decision to remain truthful and committed to another person, everyday, through good times and bad.

No, I'm not looking for a guarantee. I'm just wanting to be in the best place I can before making a choice from which there isn't any turning back.

[Carriages]

Don't remember all 13 pages of info but is there a reason you're not advocating marriage counseling? As a BS, I took my WS's resistance to MC as a bad sign (I was right ) and you seem to be embarking on self-designed independent study course.

 

Are you afraid you'd have to admit to some uncomfortable truths ?

 

Mr. Lucky

Not at all. We'd had a patch of counseling (and indeed another one, 5 years ago). I think it's probably useful for people who are clueless about relationships.......... but in terms of getting to the deeper issues, and facilitate decision making, I found it hopeless.

[Carriages]

You've said this a few times now, and you have to stop doing this. Yes accept responsibility for your share of the marriage issues. But don't minimise the betrayal of an affair.

 

And it doesn't really matter what you see as the biggest sin. It matters what has damaged your wife and marriage the most, and I most definitely assure you, it was your affair. You need to own that.

 

Yes, fair point, I agree.

[truncated]

Yeah but not until the A gets dealt with first. M problems don't get discussed until the A has been dealt with fully. After Dday I could have cared less about our M problems. It was the A and why my WH let it get to that point where he felt only an A was possible. There is a flaw with the person who has the A that they were able to let that happen in the first place.

 

This was even bigger than an affair. He walked out on his marriage, now he wants back in.

[truncated]

In the meantime, the "ma'am" just died because no one attended to her bleeding and unable to breath. Ya gotta treat ALL the issues to stay alive.

 

but not all at the same time. You triage the situation.

 

wife needing to feel the op understands how much he hurt her and that he understands her pain is step one. without that, the other steps likely won't happen.

 

step two, beginning to rebuild trust in her.

 

step three, once she feels they are a bit more solid ground, they can begin to examine the marriage and see where they both needed to make changes.

 

step four, working each day to keep those changes going, and to meet new problems as a team

[OldRover]

This is exactly right. The only "good" outcome for my wife is if I came back with genuine remorse, an awakening, and an unshakeable desire to create an authentic, respectful and loving marriage.

 

Oh, I'd still have my moments. I know myself too well to think my mind wouldn't occasionally wonder "what if", or even scream to get out of there whenever I don't feel understood. But as long as I could trust myself to behave (in all uses of the word) and keep moving forwards... that might just be enough.

 

But I don't trust myself. Not quite yet anyway. And the "elephants in the room" - that were such a factor all through my marriage - would somehow have to be put into a different context.

 

Which leaves both me, and my wife languishing for now, but at least I feel now I'm doing *something*. I'm here. I'm spending time at the family home. We are talking about relationship issues, when we have the strength. And I'm reading every resource I can find time for.

 

One other point that I think needs clarifying. I don't think anyone here - me definitely included - would "blame" a BS for an affair, or even say it's in some way partially excusable. But the circumstances that make an affair likely to happen can definitely, and in most cases probably are, created by two. By the time my affair happened, I was literally physically sick from the stress of my marriage and home life. I didn't care if my marriage ended (in fact I thought I wanted it to). I actually see the part I played in getting to this point as my biggest sin, bigger than the affair itself.

 

Carriages,

 

You are headed in the right direction. Keep working at it. You will have to work at things and there will be difficult times.

 

I'm glad you're spending some time with your wife and working on relationship issues. Yes, you'll have to solve the elephants, and you'll have to completely deal with the affair to the satisfaction of your wife and yourself. Yes, you'll have to be remorseful and she will have to forgive. Work on that, it's important.

 

You still have doubts, which I hope you are honest with. You'll have to get to the point where you commit 110% to your relationship....without hesitation. And you'll still have hard times that you'll have to get through..... you both will. But you can get to the point where you can do that together.

 

Keep up the good work.

[waterwoman]

This will be my last attempt....

 

When you have just betrayed the person you vowed to love and broken your vows, you do NOT list all the ways they made you do it. You just don't.

 

A humble, empathetic, remorseful person will work on restoring trust and helping their betrayed partner heal FIRST, and then, without blame, they can jointly work on the marriage.

 

I don't care about consensus. Any "expert" who says one should respond to infidelity by listing the ways that the BS fell short needs their "expert" title toss in the trash.

 

Yes x 10000.

 

Of course there is time for the dissection of other issues - the OP has spent plenty of time laying them all out for us so no one is left in any doubt about them. But that time is NOT now. In the best reconciliation, those issues are addressed naturally as the WS helps the BS heal.

 

The OP mentions that his w has low self esteem. Which could be the very reason she wants him to come home. His ambivalence and delay is just hurting her more.

[cocorico]

Not at all. We'd had a patch of counseling (and indeed another one, 5 years ago). I think it's probably useful for people who are clueless about relationships.......... but in terms of getting to the deeper issues, and facilitate decision making, I found it hopeless.

 

Why hopeless? Were you struggling to be heard? Did you feel the focus was on issues that were less important to you than what you would rather have focused on? Or was the counsellor just not competent?

 

If the latter, there are plenty of other counsellors, and easy to find another more competent. If the former, this might indicate fundamental differences in what really matters to you, and what really matters to your W.

[sambolini]

If my WH would have addressed our M problems after his A I would have laughed in his face. Are u kidding me?

 

Agreed. I tried very hard to get my xWW to go to MC with me, and she only went to two sessions before the threw in the towel. She was too deep in the fog.

 

But she was all for us spending time together with our daughter after her affair ended. I flat out told her there's no way in hell; because of what happened, we weren't a family any more and it was not appropriate for us to behave as if we still were. I also told her our daughter needed to accept that just as much as the rest of us.

 

That shut her up pretty quick.

 

The time to work on the marriage was before the A happened. Once she had her A, any inclination I may have had to continue working on the marriage died in an instant.

 

I have no regrets about divorcing her. I did everything I could to save my marriage and family. I failed. But I knew that I did everything, and that because of that, I could move on with my life with a clear conscience.

 

What's interesting is that I think, after four years, her conscience is finally starting to catch up with her. She offered to stop having me pay child support, and finally agreed to 50/50 time with our daughter on paper. She's been sending me pictures of our daughter she took, and even offered to burn more on a CD to give to me at some point (whether or not she'll actually follow through is a different story). I'm not sure what caused this sudden shift in her personality since she re-married earlier this year (and I genuinely like her new husband, he's good to my daughter and I'm quite grateful for that), but whatever the reason, I'm happy to capitalize on it.

 

That's the burden a WS has to carry for making their choices.

[Carriages]

Why hopeless? Were you struggling to be heard? Did you feel the focus was on issues that were less important to you than what you would rather have focused on? Or was the counsellor just not competent?

 

If the latter, there are plenty of other counsellors, and easy to find another more competent. If the former, this might indicate fundamental differences in what really matters to you, and what really matters to your W.

 

The counsellors are at pains not to give opinions, or to judge, and we went at a time when I probably needed a good dose of both. I think for people who are really *stupid* at relationships - ie. expect it to always be smooth, don't realize relationships have to be "fed" etc etc. it may be quite useful; but otherwise.... it really only provides a safe and refereed format in which to communicate. Which may well be of value in some situations.

 

And I went to counseling to seek clarity. I think for it to be helpful, you have to have committed to the marriage and the relationship first.

[carhill]

A psychologist can be tasked to work any psychological issue you task them to. You're the boss. I'd suggest employing one who specializes in recovering marriages from infidelity and/or abuse. You might be pleasantly surprised how strongly they take you to task. No, they're not going to function like this discussion forum, where we each generally tell you what to do or ascribe adjectives to your actions or personality, rather guide you to your own self-realization. That latter place is the place that can stick for a lifetime. You make the journey yourself, own it, value it, and live it. The psych is the toolbox. You're the tradesman of life and living.

[Mr. Lucky]

it really only provides a safe and refereed format in which to communicate. Which may well be of value in some situations.

 

Considering the "elephant" sized problems in your marriage that motivated you to seek intimacy elsewhere, I'll just say it puzzles me you don't place more value on this...

 

Mr. Lucky

[Carriages]

Considering the "elephant" sized problems in your marriage that motivated you to seek intimacy elsewhere, I'll just say it puzzles me you don't place more value on this...

 

Mr. Lucky

 

Because they are fundamental things about the way my wife is, and they just 'aint ever going to change. I always knew they were there (although when we got married, I expected them to get better with the passage of time). In the early days I got around them with some mental gymnastics, and I changed myself a bit.... which led to the pressure cooker I was 2 years ago.

[carhill]

OP, if your wife hadn't expressed wanting you back, would you move on? I'm not saying she didn't want you back, rather not actively expressing wanting you back. In other words, where you had to make a proactive move into the maw of uncertainty? Would you move on?

 

If you would move on, IMO file for divorce on Monday. Get it done. Save yourself thousands on MC and get right to the decision.

 

If you would go back and work on recovery, then do that with all stops pulled out. All stones overturned. Every nook and cranny examined. Every day waiting is another day she can change her mind and you'll find a nice sheriff at the door with a ledger to sign and, if you didn't think you had a deadline before, trust me you'll learn all about deadlines.