God, and the problem of suffering.

[NGC1300]

There are a lot of problems with the idea of a God, but the existence and sheer proliferation of suffering is a major one. Suffering abounds, and not just for the human race.

 

I find it absurd that if a man murders his wife and kids, we call him sick, evil, coward, etc. Yet when God kills a quarter-million people in a single tsunami, he gets a pass, for nothing can spoil his righteousness.

 

Notice you can't use the "free will" argument in the case of a tsunami. Nobody on Earth was responsible for those tsunami deaths. It was, if you will, an "act of God".

 

So how are you going to justify the atrocities inflicted by your God?

 

Perhaps you may use any variant of the "mysterious ways" argument, or the "not for us to understand" argument. Well, when a man murders his wife and kids, then why can't we just say "it's not for us to understand"??? Instead we call for his head???

 

Oh but the man had "free will"? So God doesn't then??? He has no choice but to inflict untold misery on millions of men, women, and children all over the world?

 

Wait, maybe he's "testing our faith". So in other words if a man rapes and beats little children, and then maybe kills his family, he's doing everyone a valuable service by testing their faith. He's certainly scored points with God under the "faith testing" hypothesis. The man has already secured his place in heaven.

 

Here's the problem. Given how much suffering exists even in this instant, we know God absolutely does not intervene to alleviate it. For every "miracle" another million children will die before they reach the age of 5.

 

So, when you get down to it, there are really only 3 possibilities to consider here:

 

1) God is unaware of, or unable to stop suffering. Therefore he is impotent.

2) God is aware of the suffering, and could stop it, but chooses not to. Therefore he is evil.

3) God is imaginary.

 

Please take your pick.

[OpenBook]

or 4) God sees all the possible outcomes, and He gives each and every one of us (including the guy that murdered his family) a fighting chance - this life on earth - to choose the right course, to effect a different outcome.

 

I can't help but think of our earthly existence here as some sort of testing ground.

 

And logic/science alone (never mind religion) tells me there are infinite possibilities. The future is always in motion.

 

You can certainly try to contain God to 3 possibilities. But I wouldn't take that to the bank.

[Tayla]

Ng, you bring up some valid scenarios. Certainly food for thought!

 

The part that boggles my mind and I'm sure someone may guide towards the answer... Man kills his entire family... and lives out his life with further atrocities... then 30 seconds before he dies... he asks for forgiveness and salvation... and its granted. So in essences ... go sin, but make sure you get your forgiveness card stamped at the very end and all will be well.

[BrokenManAgain]

What's between me and God is between me and God. No book comes between us and frankly, I am not religious. I don't believe in man written stuff, including mathematics. When you have to invent new concepts just to make math works, that is akin to religion.

 

Look up Stephen Hawkings' imaginary time. He had to invent this concept just to make his math work.

 

Getting off topic.

 

A little girl asked me once, why isn't daddy coming home no more? I didn't have the answer. I hoped God did.

[Kristine]

When you are suffering you are not following God's plan for you, is my opinion.

[basil67]

When you are suffering you are not following God's plan for you, is my opinion.

 

So feeling grief over the death of a spouse or child is because one isn't following God's plan?

[Kristine]

Why are you grieving? They are with God, at peace and surrounded by His love now.

 

I grieved my loss of their presence in my life, dad I cried for 1 day (the day he died). But I knew dads suffering had ended, God called him home.

 

However, for my son, since he was a suicide I really worried about his soul. Took longer.

[todreaminblue]

Why are you grieving? They are with God, at peace and surrounded by His love now.

 

I grieved my loss of their presence in my life, dad I cried for 1 day (the day he died). But I knew dads suffering had ended, God called him home.

 

However, for my son, since he was a suicide I really worried about his soul. Took longer.

in gods plan for us there si a time fro everything a time to weep a tiem to sow a time to dance a tiem to grieve...so in all essence weeping feeling sorrow suffereing is all in gods plan for us to eternally progress beyond the suffering and joy we all have to live here.... we will go beyond one day which he then promises us every tear shall be no more........all the former shall pass away.....that includes bad things ...god knows bad and good....and he knows last minute sorries if they are truth...or just a thing someone says to get their own way...

 

i dont know the bible that well but i have this passage coming to me dont even know the full passage but its about how god's grace superabounds(not diminish but eternal increase as needed ) in times of strife and peril......gods grace and love is for all people at all times.not just perfect lives with perfect people as far as i know...there are none of those anyway...never met one.....good and bad suffering or not...in fact god wants us to rely on him when we are blue he promises to never leave us.....i dotn think i love two words strung together more than...god's grace......there is nothing on earth or above more graceful and gentle to the heart than gods grace......deb

[TaraMaiden2]

In Buddhism, as there is no God to inflict or to relieve, it is concluded that ALL suffering is self-inflicted.

And in fact, it is.

 

We suffer because we either want things to be the way we want, and they are not, or we wish whatever was happening, wasn't, and it is.

 

So we suffer either through Clinging and Grasping, or through Hatred and Aversion.

 

"Suffering" also comes in a physical form (such as pain through accident, illness or condition) but we ADD to that by adding our mental anguish to the way we feel physically.

 

As the saying goes 'Pain may be inevitable, but 'Suffering' is optional.

 

Buddhists have no problem considering God and Suffering.

 

It's all in here (*taps head*), based on what we tell ourselves.

[bluefeather]

I only come to this forum to discuss relationship issues. But I'll take some time before bed and reply to this from my point of view. Just remember, it is only my own view and everything I say here is not meant to be taken as if I am saying it is the truth for all. I enjoy discussing God, but never in text form, as it is soooo slow and a very bad form of communication IMO, so I may not participate much more in this afterwards. Also, keep in mind that I am NOT going to argue for my side. And I will not respond to any talk of that sort from anyone. With that said, here is some of my truth, as best described in text form and in the late hours of the night.

 

There are a lot of problems with the idea of a God, but the existence and sheer proliferation of suffering is a major one. Suffering abounds, and not just for the human race.

God agrees. Suffering is a problem. But it is not a problem with God. It is a problem we bring on each other.

 

I find it absurd that if a man murders his wife and kids, we call him sick, evil, coward, etc. Yet when God kills a quarter-million people in a single tsunami, he gets a pass, for nothing can spoil his righteousness.

When a man kills someone, it is his "evil" will. When a tsunami kills many, it is our (humanity's) shared "evil" will. Think of this as the collective unconscious at work.

 

Notice you can't use the "free will" argument in the case of a tsunami. Nobody on Earth was responsible for those tsunami deaths. It was, if you will, an "act of God".

This point is now invalid, as I do believe that we are responsible for disasters too. They are not acts of God in the sense of God being one who creates them. Disasters are made from the power of our collective thoughts focused on chaos. We are that powerful. We just think that we are not.

 

So how are you going to justify the atrocities inflicted by your God?

Again, this point holds no water with my view. Forgive the pun.

 

Perhaps you may use any variant of the "mysterious ways" argument, or the "not for us to understand" argument. Well, when a man murders his wife and kids, then why can't we just say "it's not for us to understand"??? Instead we call for his head???

No mystery here. There is a reason for it. And the reason is always our will.

 

Oh but the man had "free will"? So God doesn't then??? He has no choice but to inflict untold misery on millions of men, women, and children all over the world?

I'm seeing a pattern here: that God is the creator of disasters. He/She/It is not. We are.

 

Wait, maybe he's "testing our faith". So in other words if a man rapes and beats little children, and then maybe kills his family, he's doing everyone a valuable service by testing their faith. He's certainly scored points with God under the "faith testing" hypothesis. The man has already secured his place in heaven.

I do not believe God tests anyone. I do not believe that is what we were made for.

 

Here's the problem. Given how much suffering exists even in this instant, we know God absolutely does not intervene to alleviate it. For every "miracle" another million children will die before they reach the age of 5.

This is true. But I do not consider human suffering of this kind to be a problem for God to solve. I will agree that this is difficult to accept.

 

So, when you get down to it, there are really only 3 possibilities to consider here:

 

1) God is unaware of, or unable to stop suffering. Therefore he is impotent.

2) God is aware of the suffering, and could stop it, but chooses not to. Therefore he is evil.

3) God is imaginary.

 

Please take your pick.

 

2, amended.

God is aware of the suffering, and could stop it, but chooses not to. God will never intervene. To do so would be to deny us of our free will. He would never take that away from us, whether we wish to love someone or harm them.

[NGC1300]

This point is now invalid, as I do believe that we are responsible for disasters too. They are not acts of God in the sense of God being one who creates them. Disasters are made from the power of our collective thoughts focused on chaos. We are that powerful. We just think that we are not.

 

Global disasters and mass extinctions happened several times over long before humans even existed.

 

 

Did the dinosaurs cause their own demise too?

[TaraMaiden2]

The mistake is in believing that these events are punishments.

 

They are not.

 

These events are a test of endurance, survival and attitude.

[NGC1300]

The mistake is in believing that these events are punishments.

 

They are not.

 

These events are a test of endurance, survival and attitude.

 

Natural selection.

 

In other words, no rhyme or reason.

[TaraMaiden2]

Natural selection.

 

In other words, no rhyme or reason.

 

Precisely. Or to be specific, there's no point in LOOKING for rhyme or reason.....

But those who survive, have to cope with the aftermath.

It is a test of their own resolve, attitude and determination which will result in positive or negative consequences for them.

 

It's never about WHAT happens.

 

It's all about how we deal with it.

[autumnnight]

When you are suffering you are not following God's plan for you, is my opinion.

 

This is not at all Biblical. Jesus Himself said that "In this world wyou will have tribulation." James 1:2-4 says "Consider it joy when you face various trials, knowing that the testing of your faith produces endurance."

 

Reads Psalms. They are full of crying out to God with suffering.

 

There is no Biblical basis for the idea that someone who is suffering, they are not following God. Just like there is no Biblical basis for the "if you aren't healed you didn't have enough faith" nonsense.

[WomenWubber]

God is working towards a goal and all the universe will struggle/suffer to achieve it. We all have a role in plan. All the lives inhabiting the universe have a purpose and we will have made our contribution to this world when this purpose is fulfilled.

 

Whether that goal is to erradicate suffering, to simply bring hell upon us or just playing marbles is not something we should be concerned with. We have been born as human beings, so we should solely concern ourselves with the trivial matters of human life.

[TaraMaiden2]

God is working towards a goal and all the universe will struggle/suffer to achieve it. We all have a role in plan. All the lives inhabiting the universe have a purpose and we will have made our contribution to this world when this purpose is fulfilled.

 

Whether that goal is to erradicate suffering, to simply bring hell upon us or just playing marbles is not something we should be concerned with. We have been born as human beings, so we should solely concern ourselves with the trivial matters of human life.

 

In other words, either God's final goal is irrelevant and of no importance, or God will have his way whatever we do, so no amount of effort on our part, either way, will make a gnat's nadger difference to anything we currently believe.

[Rejected Rosebud]

When you are suffering you are not following God's plan for you, is my opinion.

What about the children starving all over the world? Etc.

 

This is what I think OP and it might be hard to swallow but here it is: The universe is so vast and gigantic and so is God, we can't even begin to conceive of all of it, it is humanly impossible. Every soul has its own path to walk in this life and for some of us that path is full of pain and suffering, which can be manifested in all different ways, some times the person has no choice (like tsunami or child starvation victims among millions of others), and many times the whole experience is to make something out of ones time here on earth INCLUDING ones own personal suffering, I think that is what Jesus modeled for us. Heck sometimes it's all about handling privilege with grace.

 

But in the whole immense picture human suffering is a tiny speck no matter how horrible it is to us. We step on ants and smash mosquitos every day. There is alot more to a soul than what we are going to experience here on earth. ...

[WomenWubber]

In other words, either God's final goal is irrelevant and of no importance, or God will have his way whatever we do, so no amount of effort on our part, either way, will make a gnat's nadger difference to anything we currently believe.

 

Pretty much.

[bluefeather]

Global disasters and mass extinctions happened several times over long before humans even existed.

 

 

Did the dinosaurs cause their own demise too?

 

With a view about the collective unconscious being active this way, yes, it would be possible for dinosaurs to create such disasters. Creatures killing eachother all the time. Heavily focused on sex. Obsessed with survival. Sounds like the same exact mindset of humanity.

Edited October 23, 2015 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
response to deleted post redacted ~6

[TaraMaiden2]

With a view about the collective unconscious being active this way, yes, it would be possible for dinosaurs to create such disasters. Creatures killing eachother all the time....

Dinosaurs were basically oversized reptiles.

We have vestige descendants even now... the Komodo dragon, and alligators and croc's.

 

I have kept reptiles for a considerable time. I am what could be described as an enthusiastic amateur herpetologist.

 

Let me tell you that in comparison to their sizes, they have exceedingly small and not-very-intelligent brains. They're thick as two short planks - and that's not being very fair to the planks.

They rely almost entirely on instinct, because thinking for themselves and working out aspects of life, is not their forte.

 

Heavily focused on sex. Obsessed with survival. Sounds like the same exact mindset of humanity.

This frankly, is a fatuous statement, because if dinosaurs and humans have anything in common, one must also consider every single living creature in between. That is the basic premise for existence, so frankly, singling out the dinosaurs as being similar to humanity, does evolution and Natural selection a disservice...

 

No. Humans have a consciousness other animals in other orders, do not possess - and other simians DO possess, but to a measurably different and/or lesser degree....We have the intellectual capacity to feel remorse, hatred and a means of expressing any and every emotion in a way no other animal hitherto possesses.

We have language, we have vocabulary and we have written communication.

To say therefore that dinosaurs could have been responsible for their own demise is hogwash, and frankly, stretching your theory a bit thin.

 

 

Like I think of magic, I believe God is just science that has not yet been proven.

Or disproven...

 

Gravity, atoms, even the concept of the subconscious in psychology - these are all invisible too.

Not so.

But they always existed... until discovered

Then they weren't discovered. They were revealed.

 

But my faith does not see God as someOne. It is everything. It is even the text I'm typing on this screen.

That again, is pushing it a bit.

You are responsible for that which you see appearing on your screen as you type.

 

Take responsibility.

Putting things down to a collective consciousness and a thing you call 'God' is abdication of personal responsibility to the highest degree.

[bluefeather]

TaraMaiden2, I agree with much of what you said. Still, just as I said before, typing in text here takes too much time. It is also very easy to miscommunicate.

 

I could respond to all of your points, most of them in agreement, but with an added point or two that I did not bring across the first time (one of them being that the concept of dinosaurs being unintelligent is debatable, regardless of their supposed brain size, another being that their extinction might have been caused by another entity or entities, and another altogether about what I have to say about the power of the collective unconscious and how being in a place where tsunamis happen is somewhere along the lines of causing it to be experienced - all of this needs more explaining to get into), but again, I really don't like communicating this way about important things like this. They are too conceptual and there is only so much time that I will spend typing on this computer, which means I cannot express all the points and views that I would like to. This is also why I get so annoyed when I read about lovers' quarrels via text. It is hard to get ideas across, and harder still to receive them like this. I can talk about and even debate these types of ideas in person, so that we can have free-flowing conversations, quickly, back and forth. I cannot do this here on a forum. If you see this as a cop-out, that is fine, but I will bow out of this now.

[bluefeather]

Take responsibility.Putting things down to a collective consciousness and a thing you call 'God' is abdication of personal responsibility to the highest degree.

 

Also, this is very, very far from my truth. I will not go into detail here, lest a debate start, that seriously does not interest me. I will only say this, and hopefully you can change your idea that you think I am giving away responsibility, although as I say it, I know that some may see me as evil, or mentally disturbed.

 

I already said God is everything. It is even the text I'm typing on this screen. Which means it is even Me. Therefore, I too am God. I am not abdicating personal responsibility, I am on the opposite end of that spectrum and take responsibility for it all. I see my responsibility for letting wars happen, for letting people starve to death, and for supporting this system which allows some people to have health care and others to not. I am responsible for all of this. And just as well, all of us are. But I will focus on myself, and one day, I hope to change all of this.

[billyjohn]

1) God is unaware of, or unable to stop suffering. Therefore he is impotent.

2) God is aware of the suffering, and could stop it, but chooses not to. Therefore he is evil.

3) God is imaginary.

 

Please take your pick.

 

Option #1 is the correct one.

 

God is too big, and too far removed from life on Earth to affect it in a specific way, or even to be aware of it in the first place.

 

And this is an infinitely more objective and accurate way to view a "God"...

[central]

Option #3 is the correct one.

 

Suffering is a natural result of being alive, and the evolutionary processes that lead to the development of life and competition for survival. There are prey and predators, for example. God isn't an answer to anything real, and everything becomes much simpler and comprehensible if the concept of god is removed from any such discussion.