autumnnight Posted October 21, 2015 Share Posted October 21, 2015 I always find opinion-as-fact in a discussion about God from those who DON'T believe disingenuous. I'll be frank, I don't understand a lot of the suffering that people go through. But I'll say that Tara made a good point....putting it all on God is an abdication of personal responsibility. For example, If I have unprotected sex with thousands of people and share needles with herione addicts in the street......I cannot then blame GOD if I get an STI. If I drive drunk, have an accident, and my child is killed, I cannot then blame GOD. Those examples are pretty obvious. But most of the tragedy that happens on earth (save natural disasters) happens as a result of a combination of choices. Maybe not MY choices. For example, the person who chooses to use the bad meat at a restaurant is the one who made the choice that made me sick. But we assign a lot to God that is just plain old people making bad choices. And if climate change is as dire as some believe, then we can't even blame God for hurricanes and tornadoes Besides....if there is no God, how can it be God's fault? 1 Link to post Share on other sites
TaraMaiden2 Posted October 21, 2015 Share Posted October 21, 2015 TaraMaiden2, I agree with much of what you said. Still, just as I said before, typing in text here takes too much time. It is also very easy to miscommunicate. I could respond to all of your points, most of them in agreement, but with an added point or two that I did not bring across the first time ..... Also, this is very, very far from my truth. I will not go into detail here, lest a debate start, that seriously does not interest me. ...... I am responsible for all of this. And just as well, all of us are. But I will focus on myself, and one day, I hope to change all of this. Out of respect for your decision(?) reluctance (?) inability (?) (not accusatory question-marks, simply proposing the possibilities) to engage in a protracted debate, I will refrain from responding to your points, save to quote Gandhi who once said "BE the change you wish to see in the world." If you're saying that, I'm shoulder to shoulder. Much Metta. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Keats Posted October 21, 2015 Share Posted October 21, 2015 To look at a tsunami as Gods will isn't the best perspective. Otherwise your absolutely right. I couldn't personally like a God like that. And I am very religious. The natural world just like humans has it's logic. Humans have free will. So atrocities can be blamed on our own actions. The natural world may not have free will. But it does have a scientific program of life it follows. No storm is random, neither volcano nor simple hail. The environment has a function too. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Author NGC1300 Posted October 21, 2015 Author Share Posted October 21, 2015 or 4) God sees all the possible outcomes, and He gives each and every one of us (including the guy that murdered his family) a fighting chance - this life on earth - to choose the right course, to effect a different outcome. And the kids that were murdered by their own father? The children that drown in the tsunami? How did God give them a "fighting chance"? Link to post Share on other sites
Author NGC1300 Posted October 21, 2015 Author Share Posted October 21, 2015 The natural world may not have free will. But it does have a scientific program of life it follows. No storm is random, neither volcano nor simple hail. The environment has a function too. If god is all-powerful and all-knowing, wouldn't it be child's play to halt a tsunami, or create a planet that never had one? Earthquakes, volcanos, and tsunamis can indeed be a springboard for new life and evolution, but always at the expense of that which already exists. The way our planet functions is with extreme indifference to life, which does not seem to square with the idea of a God. Link to post Share on other sites
Author NGC1300 Posted October 21, 2015 Author Share Posted October 21, 2015 When you are suffering you are not following God's plan for you, is my opinion. Is that what you tell a child dying of cancer? 2 Link to post Share on other sites
autumnnight Posted October 21, 2015 Share Posted October 21, 2015 And the kids that were murdered by their own father? The children that drown in the tsunami? How did God give them a "fighting chance"? I firmly believe that when we sincerely seek answers with an open heart...we find answers. I do not believe you are sincere. Link to post Share on other sites
Author NGC1300 Posted October 21, 2015 Author Share Posted October 21, 2015 I firmly believe that when we sincerely seek answers with an open heart...we find answers. I do not believe you are sincere. We will certainly find answers, but it takes an open mind to understand they may not be answers we like. Link to post Share on other sites
todreaminblue Posted October 21, 2015 Share Posted October 21, 2015 Is that what you tell a child dying of cancer? too true......you tell them the opposite......and you give them hope...always..i dont think there are many who could understand the joy of living more or how life is a precious gift.....more than a child who is dying...and i could not ever imagine telling a child who is dying there is no god its the end for you or you must have not been following gods plan to be suffering...is just as bad to me, as there is no god................deb Link to post Share on other sites
Keats Posted October 21, 2015 Share Posted October 21, 2015 If god is all-powerful and all-knowing, wouldn't it be child's play to halt a tsunami, or create a planet that never had one? Earthquakes, volcanos, and tsunamis can indeed be a springboard for new life and evolution, but always at the expense of that which already exists. The way our planet functions is with extreme indifference to life, which does not seem to square with the idea of a God. If one person murders another. We can deal with this because one person dies. We don't usually tend to blame God. Because the murderer has motive it all makes sense. A volcano kills thousands of people. But we need to remember one person is one person. A person can discriminate and target their hate etc. A volcanos impact is more than one mere person. A volcano doesn't discriminate. Nature is bigger than man. So when nature acts up we start to question God. No harm in that. Questioning God is highly recommended. But we so often forget nature isn't mystical. Its purely science. I can't quite accept myself that God is responsible for things. He made nature and let it be. He made man and let him be. He is letting it all unwind and play out. It is strange that he controls everything yet doesn't. These contradictions start cropping up the closer you come to quearing and realise that you believe in a thing you can't actually see, and can never really know that side because the doors are ultimately closed. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
BC1980 Posted October 22, 2015 Share Posted October 22, 2015 I honestly mean no disrespect but it never ceases to amaze me how much articulate, intelligent, educated and advanced human beings, with every technological means of exploration and investigation literally at their fingertips, can still put any amount of faith or credence in someone totally unseen, unheard and unmanifested, and in a book of worthy lessons which are actually not original but may be found in the writings and archives of other, older tomes of spiritual/religious worship.... Okay. Whatever floats your rubber dinghy..... Never underestimate the power of religion as a coping mechanism. I don't think intelligence had very much to do with religious belief. I think it's more about meeting emotional needs. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
TheFinalWord Posted October 22, 2015 Share Posted October 22, 2015 (edited) 1) God is unaware of, or unable to stop suffering. Therefore he is impotent. 2) God is aware of the suffering, and could stop it, but chooses not to. Therefore he is evil. 3) God is imaginary. Please take your pick. I'm not sure if you're asking a question or already have your mind made up. It appears you have watched a few Hitchens videos (ergo god is not great). His arguments don't do it for me (he mainly appeals to emotions, I am more interested in the ), but you may wish to watch a few Ravi Zacharias, John Lennox or Alvin Plantiga vids/debates to get both sides of the argument. Recommend: The Existence of Evil and the Problem of God - Alvin Plantinga vs. Richard Gale The Nature of Evil and Suffering - John Lennox vs Michael Shermer Edited October 22, 2015 by TheFinalWord 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Author NGC1300 Posted October 22, 2015 Author Share Posted October 22, 2015 Never underestimate the power of religion as a coping mechanism. I don't think intelligence had very much to do with religious belief. I think it's more about meeting emotional needs. People need answers even if it's a make-believe answer. The tragedy of mankind is our longing for purpose and meaning in a universe that has none to offer. Link to post Share on other sites
OpenBook Posted October 22, 2015 Share Posted October 22, 2015 And the kids that were murdered by their own father? The children that drown in the tsunami? How did God give them a "fighting chance"? I don't know the answer. I wish I did. I share in your frustration and anguish, even though we come to different conclusions. I'm going to continue questioning things and seeking answers. I hope you will too. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
pureinheart Posted October 22, 2015 Share Posted October 22, 2015 People need answers even if it's a make-believe answer. The tragedy of mankind is our longing for purpose and meaning in a universe that has none to offer. Why does it bother you that people 'believe'? It means little to me whether people believe or not because I'm not in control, God is. Why do non believers have to or find the need to be so condescending? 1 Link to post Share on other sites
TheFinalWord Posted October 22, 2015 Share Posted October 22, 2015 (edited) Why does it bother you that people 'believe'? It means little to me whether people believe or not because I'm not in control, God is. Why do non believers have to or find the need to be so condescending? Combination of insecurity and superiority complex. Some people are just bullies. Edited October 22, 2015 by TheFinalWord 2 Link to post Share on other sites
TaraMaiden2 Posted October 22, 2015 Share Posted October 22, 2015 People need answers even if it's a make-believe answer. Why, do people 'need' answers? They don't 'need' answers. They WANT answers. Why do they 'want' answers? What right do they have, to answers? The tragedy of mankind is our longing for purpose and meaning in a universe that has none to offer. What a hell you must live on if you feel your life has no purpose. My life definitely has a purpose, because I have given it purpose. Don't wait for some outside, omniscient, unseen, possibly-imagined source to give you answers to which you have no entitlement, save to satisfy your own ego. Make yourself a living reason for living Life itself. Link to post Share on other sites
casey.lives Posted October 22, 2015 Share Posted October 22, 2015 suffering results from not accepting your losses or not fighting back. When you assert yourself, you don't suffer. Link to post Share on other sites
Tayla Posted October 22, 2015 Share Posted October 22, 2015 Pain receptors are in our bodies for a reason. Pretty sure that suffering is the Pain saying...Yup! that hurts . Acknowledging it. Leads us to either deal with it or avoid its original trigger. ( such as putting your hand on a hot stove, sort of learn not to do that again...) Pain and suffering tend to be two peas in a pod. ( Mind you I am primarily speaking of the physical pains..that permeate and perpetuate thru various incidences thru out ones life) Even Buddha said ...such sufferings of loss, sickness, aging and death...are in our cycle to experience and adapt. ( Okay those weren't his exact words as I was not sitting beside him , I had to take a potty break then ) Link to post Share on other sites
TaraMaiden2 Posted October 22, 2015 Share Posted October 22, 2015 Pain receptors are in our bodies for a reason. Pretty sure that suffering is the Pain saying...Yup! that hurts . Acknowledging it. Leads us to either deal with it or avoid its original trigger. ( such as putting your hand on a hot stove, sort of learn not to do that again...) Pain and suffering tend to be two peas in a pod. ( Mind you I am primarily speaking of the physical pains..that permeate and perpetuate thru various incidences thru out ones life) Even Buddha said ...such sufferings of loss, sickness, aging and death...are in our cycle to experience and adapt. ( Okay those weren't his exact words as I was not sitting beside him , I had to take a potty break then ) Actually, what he said was "I come to teach the Origin of Suffering, and the Transcendence/Cessation of Suffering." 'Suffering' can never be eliminated. It will accompany us and be our constant companion, throughout our lives, from Birth, to Death. How we perceive that Suffering, and deal with it, is the real measure of its effect on us. Link to post Share on other sites
autumnnight Posted October 22, 2015 Share Posted October 22, 2015 suffering results from not accepting your losses or not fighting back. When you assert yourself, you don't suffer. This probably looks good on a motivational poster, but it is patently false. 2 Link to post Share on other sites
Author NGC1300 Posted October 22, 2015 Author Share Posted October 22, 2015 Why does it bother you that people 'believe'? It means little to me whether people believe or not because I'm not in control, God is. Why do non believers have to or find the need to be so condescending? Very good question. While I don't exactly spend the hours wondering or concerning myself with the beliefs of others, I would say faith in God is obscene. If there is a reason it "bothers" me, that would be it. Not because of "insecurity" as another poster claimed. In fact, believing in any version of a fable because you're worried about death or trying to make sense of a senseless world could also be characterized as insecurity. It's obscene due to the very issues I raised in the OP. When you believe a God is "in control" of everything, you're turning your back on your fellow man, whether you realize that or not. Given the misery inflicted on millions, every day, all over the world - given all that this "God" does NOT accomplish - faith in God is obscene. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
TaraMaiden2 Posted October 22, 2015 Share Posted October 22, 2015 This probably looks good on a motivational poster, but it is patently false. Explain why, please....? Link to post Share on other sites
autumnnight Posted October 22, 2015 Share Posted October 22, 2015 Explain why, please....? The idea that if we assert yourselves we will never suffer? Link to post Share on other sites
TheFinalWord Posted October 22, 2015 Share Posted October 22, 2015 Very good question. While I don't exactly spend the hours wondering or concerning myself with the beliefs of others, I would say faith in God is obscene. If there is a reason it "bothers" me, that would be it. Not because of "insecurity" as another poster claimed. In fact, believing in any version of a fable because you're worried about death or trying to make sense of a senseless world could also be characterized as insecurity. It's obscene due to the very issues I raised in the OP. When you believe a God is "in control" of everything, you're turning your back on your fellow man, whether you realize that or not. Given the misery inflicted on millions, every day, all over the world - given all that this "God" does NOT accomplish - faith in God is obscene. The point about insecurity was nothing to do with whether you believe in an after life or not. It's a need to validate yourself by mocking and bullying others. Bully psychology is rooted in insecurity. I know that from the scientific evidence. So the thousands of missionaries and Christian ministries that are spread throughout the most blighted areas of the world, have turned their backs on their fellow man (due to their belief in God), meanwhile, due to your convictions, are actually heading out on a humanitarian trip this weekend to help people in third world countries. My guess is no, you're not. So we could build the straw-man you construct. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
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