affair...recovery...how ?!?!?

[katielee]

He cannot even try to mend the relationship if you don't believe that things can get better and demolish him in the process. People do make mistakes, he needs to prove himself if he wants to stay in the marriage and regain his wife's trust. If the guy; however, is ridiculed mentally, financially and this event is kept rubbed into his face, he will leave or cheat again. We need to look at what the goal is, saving the marriage.

 

I can't think of a better way for a cheater to prove themselves then offering to take a polygraph. I know several marriages where the BS was put at ease by the WS taking one and passing and with that behind them, they moved on.

 

I don't know anyone here who (especially this OP) who rubs what their spouse did in their face. She is not punishing him by taking the kids away, she's making a healthy decision to get them away from the poor choices he is making. Cheating is not a mistake - it's a series of poor choices.

[merrmeade]

you are under no obligation to remain with someone that has treated you so bad.

 

 

Sometimes the best way to "process" it is to go on and live a good life with the people that have betrayed you fading rapidly in your rearview mirror.

Yes, I'm afraid that - no matter how well you process everything and conclude he's good for reconciliation on the basis of x, y, z - this issue may override everything for you. There's a lot you'd need to do to (a) believe he "takes it back" as in deeply, sincerely regrets every word and action AND understands how devastating it was for you; (b) actually feel good about yourself and him. I don't believe it could be done with this extent of damage and injury. You might be okay today, next month even, but later will it come up again for you, ,did you move past it stronger and wiser? I have my doubts.

[merrmeade]

katilee,

When you expose your husband's infidelity to the whole family is humiliating. Cheating on your wife is humiliating as well for the wife.

If he is a "proven liar", then you break the relationship off and move on. Making him taking a lie detector test seems ridiculous, will make everything worse.....if you tell him that i don't trust you at all, why stay in the marriage?? He cannot even try to mend the relationship if you don't believe that things can get better and demolish him in the process. People do make mistakes, he needs to prove himself if he wants to stay in the marriage and regain his wife's trust. If the guy; however, is ridiculed mentally, financially and this event is kept rubbed into his face, he will leave or cheat again. We need to look at what the goal is, saving the marriage.

All your objections are accompanied by words of understanding, but the repeated emphasis on protection of the cheaters' ego belies that. Yes, there comes a point in reconciliation when both partners are able to balance this give-and-take exercise in mutual respect, but in the beginning there simply is NO comparison or equal rights when it comes to the betrayed spouse's pain and injury CAUSED by the cheating spouse. Until the victim is no longer a victim, you cannot ask her to forgive the perpetrator on the basis of helping their relationship in the long run. No way you "understand" if you don't get that.

[Carriages]

I'm a WH myself. I'm sorry to be part of the same ilk that has inflicted so much pain upon you! A few things occur to me on reading the above.

 

1. Ignore comments along the lines of "he is trash" etc. etc. He may well be; but he might have been a genuinely good man and husband before this happened, and maybe he can be again. Only you can decide if this is likely, and whether you are prepared to take the risk.

 

2. Similarly, I think you should disregard concerns about "what sort of message does this send the kids". Sure, if you take him back and the marriage languishes, that does send a bad message to the children. But if you reconcile, forgive, and work on things to create something wonderful, that not only creates a great environment for the kids but also teaches them lessons about forgiveness, humility and love.

 

3. Don't be hung up about the things your husband wrote while in the midst of the affair. They really are nothing more than the ramblings of a self-brainwashed madman. In fact, if your H is anything like me (and most WSs) he was probably pretty miserable most of the time. The "highs" of an affair are stratospheric; but even in the midst of an affair 90% of your life is not lived in those moments. That 90% is composed of confusion, torment and guilt.

 

4. I agree with those above who felt a polygraph test is humiliating. Yes, there has to be full disclosure and you have to have full access to everything; but a lie detector test for me, would create resentment - regardless of the rights & wrongs of the situation. And resentment is precisely what your marriage needs to get away from.

 

Good luck.

[katielee]

 

 

 

4. I agree with those above who felt a polygraph test is humiliating. Yes, there has to be full disclosure and you have to have full access to everything; but a lie detector test for me, would create resentment - regardless of the rights & wrongs of the situation. And resentment is precisely what your marriage needs to get away from.

 

Good luck.

 

I don't understand this. Why? As a former WW I say, "Bring it. If this is what you need for healing, honey, I'm all in." There would be no resentment. For what purpose? If the goal is to help the BS heal, what skin would it be off the WS's back?

[Carriages]

I don't understand this. Why? As a former WW I say, "Bring it. If this is what you need for healing, honey, I'm all in." There would be no resentment. For what purpose? If the goal is to help the BS heal, what skin would it be off the WS's back?

 

I take your point. But there's something about a lie detector test which criminalizes the whole situation. For me it would feel icky. It also reeks of punishment, and dominance. It says "as yet, there is ZERO trust and respect". And I think for reconciliation to even start, there has to be at least some.

[katielee]

I think, at the beginning of reconciliation, there IS zero respect and trust. I think a polygraph would be a way to get at some trust with a passed test. The bigger deal is the BS knowing the truth so the BS can make decisions.. how the WS feels about being polygraphed - shouldn't the BS's feelings have precedence? Sure, I may feel a little bit criminalized. So what. What i did was criminal and cruel. Can I at least give my BS a little bit of ground to stand on before I worry about punishment?

[turnera]

You will find, the longer he is out of the house, that you will recover who 'you' are, and you will start discovering a new sense of purpose for you only, that doesn't depend on if you are together. Once you see that strength, you'll be able to make decisions based on your best needs, not his.

[Lion Heart]

Lion Heart,

 

It is understandable that you are heart broken ! If you guys cannot regain trust in the relationship - which would be also understandable--- then move on. Treating/punishing your cheating husband as a kid, signing over the mortgage to your name, lie detector test etc is OVERDONE. With this move you demolished the slightest chance of marriage survival. You feel humiliated so in return you humiliate your husband back. Are you any better? What did you achieve ? Financial security?

 

This ^^^^ and the following post C, where did you get "humiliated" from. You're projecting as we all do, but I think assuming all betrayed spouses are humiliated (and some may be) but I'm certainly not. Wayward people humiliate THEMSELVES.

 

Since you addressed me personally and we don't have "a history" lol. I'll respond via PM. If I can work out how to. :-)

 

Good luck Spacewoman. You have done so well sweetheart.

And from my perspective, any bf who's gonna do sexual acts with an OW in the home you share OR ANYWHERE actually is NOT AND I REPEAT NOT HUSBAND MATERIAL.

 

SO many beautiful, kind, caring and FAITHFUL men are out there. Take your time. You'll find him. It's obviously not this joker!

 

Lion Heart.

[Lion Heart]

Sorry to t/j Spacewoman.

 

Captivating you can't receive PMs yet and I'm not willing to t/j this thread to respond personally. I'll try later.

 

:-))

[Spacewoman1414]

I sort of went MIA. I have read all the responses.

 

I did ask, note please first though, I asked my WS to take a polygraph with no actual intention of following through. I just really wanted to see if he was wiling...he adamantly refused. Stating he would divorce first.

 

I was really disappointed to be told that.

 

So--for now, I am really struggling. For so many years I was really lonely and unhappy in the marriage. I turned to him all the time crying, begging, writing emails, texts, notes etc about how unhappy I was. How I really wanted to go on a date with him, make out, have compliments, etc. and yet nothing. For years I would march us into couples counseling but he would quickly (2-3) sessions say BS and stop going. 3 months before the affair started was our last couples session and once again when the counselor asked what do you need from your spouse... it was "she's perfect" nothing.... and yet here we are.

I for the last 4 years have been brutally honest in the most humiliating way about how vulnerable I was to an affair because I was so so alone. We lived nothing more than roommates who disliked each other. YET... he still did nothing.

 

For years I allowed him to walk all over me and do what he wanted when he wanted (ie I can't count the number of times he stayed out with his friends and didn't come home until 5-6am with no call no nothing, or traveled out of town and would disappear all night etc). An apology and a little wife nagging and bam that was it.

 

Now- as I look it's no wonder he did these things. He was overly confident and is showing so, just how much he expected to just say sorry and wine and dine me with his words and then his wife just says OK...all is good.

 

And now here I am. My life a wreck. My family gone. I always accepted his s*** because my family meant more to me. FYI no physical abuse, no real arguing. We really just lived in silence.

 

So I do recognize we were super broken and maybe ultimately this can be a wakeup call but I hate hate hate that because he took it so so far I just don't see how you get through this and then I hate hate hate how that means the end of my family... the end because a grown married man decided to be so darn selfish...

 

I hate the idea of dating, I Know that isn't on the list right now, but in general I hate the idea of dating.... makes me angry at the idea of having to go back to that scene...

 

really struggling today boo...

[Spacewoman1414]

Spacewoman,

 

I'm sorry that you had to go through this and that you are heartbroken. However, can you tell me why the full disclosure of this event was necessary? If you feel humiliated, why do you feel the need to go to battle mode and humiliate your husband in return? This is what I told to Lion Heart as well, that with this move the slightest chance of survival is demolished. How are you any better than him if you guys mutually humiliate each other? I understand your frustration though.

 

Well I guess that's hard to put into words on a typed basis

 

I don't consider it battle mode rather, I have zero family. Literally I am a child who aged out of foster care. He is all I have (and on a very limited basis his family). He left me and the kids and completely turned his back on us, literally just abandoned us and yet i held my loyalty and allowed him to move us still.... so to get here and learn that I was moved to the affair and just gave up my job and forced my highschooler here and now have nothing.... I just needed some support. I don't know anyone here in the new state. We purchased a home and he put it in his name only, opened a bank acct in his name only (this was done because I wasn't in the new state and I had no issue b/c I trusted him fully) yet come to find out he was telling her it was so it would be easier for them to be together. So I guess I sort of panicked realizing holy SH** what the hell just happened to me. It wasn't to embarrass or humiliate him it was more out of a fear shock...holy crap. No money, no house, what am I going to do. Also.... at the time I called (the day I found out) he had not yet said to me that he was not leaving us for her....so I was under the assumption that indeed I was about to me told to get out of the house b/c she was moving in..

Does that make sense?

[Lion Heart]

I don't understand this. Why? As a former WW I say, "Bring it. If this is what you need for healing, honey, I'm all in." There would be no resentment. For what purpose? If the goal is to help the BS heal, what skin would it be off the WS's back?

 

EXACTLY ^^^^ Katielee. I'd have any type of "test" to make my partner feel safe, comforted, to build trust in my words (and aactions AND MOTIVATIONS) or just because.

 

And the BECAUSE PART IS THIS. ...

 

IF a betrayed spouse wants to go off on a "folly" of an A, get all down and dirty with OP OTHER than their marital partner because they hold "resentment" or any other c*** & bu** story they needed for their OWN justifications for the A. THEN THEIR spouse and often family to.a wider extent are DEVASTATED by their whim. OH and let's not forget the WS wants to R. THEY want to R. Sorry but ALOT of proof in every quarter may be well and truly required for the mere beginnings of a R effort in the behalf of the WS.

 

LIE detector test? Is THAT ALL you want???

 

Sure a LDT every 3 months for 3 years is going a bit hard lol. But I'd do that easily too. Willingly if I'd brought such cr** into my M AND EXPECTED to R!

 

It seems a LOT of WSs want want want want. Want to be M.

Want an A. Want both their M and their AP. Want no one to know. Want to keep every little secret. Want to escape any consequences. Want to stay M. Want a BETTER M! Really?

 

Come on. A WS didn't WANT a better M. They wanted their cake and to eat it too. Working on the love and compassion WITHIN the M is gonna get a spouse somewhere we'd hope but NOT IF their spouse is already all about town with their AP!

 

Plenty of WSs just don't "get it". Katielee does. She'd do anything for a true R. A better M. But it's just so much harder after the A.

 

LH

[Spacewoman1414]

He did all the things for her that I asked and begged for and desperately wanted/needed for her AND THEN SOME. He literally swept her off her feet and completely abandoned me and the kids while doing so. Remember he moved ahead of us...so he was truly living it up like a single guy. Lived out the threesome fantasy with her...

 

 

Then I know that I don't want to stay in the state I was moved to for the affair....yet am so lost as to where on earth do I go. We have moved every 2-4 years for his job, so no real support network anywhere...and with zero family... I am so lost about where to move but know that staying put isn't the best option for me or my kids.

[Lion Heart]

Spacewoman

 

I've just read your last few posts. Thanks for coming back to update and share more of your back story.

 

There is SO much I want to say about this predator of a dispicable human. He is the most self centered person I've read about. He's manipulated the situation to render you vulnerable and dependent. Just where he wants you. He had no regard for his children nor you.

 

I'm certain you've considered the following but just in case I'll put them down:

 

* I hope you can hang in there and NOT leave the house.

 

* is there any way for you to get your name on the mortgage?

 

* you need legal counsel. Get it asap. Maybe the advice will be to move quickly on D. IDK. Either way get all paperwork in order asap. Make copies and keep them in safe places.

 

* if I were you, I'd stay put until as many of my ducks are in a row that is humanly possible.

 

* has he had an STD check?

 

* has he stopped the As? If not don't have unprotected sex.

 

* if you can seek work where the children were most happy, I'd look to that community to re-settle at a later date.

 

* make friends where you are.

 

* contact and keep contact with the friends you left where you plan to move.

 

I have a friend who's lived in a relationship like yours for over 20 years. It's been going on the whole time. Many of us have tried to get her out but she's staying put. IDK why but she does.

 

Read the NC guide. Protect your children as much as possible. Especially if this housing situation is looking to be a protracted one.

 

Get counselling if you think it's a good idea.

 

You know what you have to do. Just make a plan focussing on you and the kids now which involves getting out of this abusive M.

 

Remember, ALWAYS remember what you DO HAVE.

 

You have beautiful children that love you.

You have the whit and skills to escape this.

You have rights.

You have a long life ahead of you filled with joy and delight. It's about time too.

 

Best wishes

Lion Heart.

[Spacewoman1414]

Lionheart...thanks for the encouragement you have no idea how valuable it is to me right now.

 

And this I need to tack to my forehead

You have beautiful children that love you.

You have the whit and skills to escape this.

You have rights.

You have a long life ahead of you filled with joy and delight. It's about time too.

 

 

 

OKAY so yes he has stopped all contact with the mistress. I have spoken to her several times now and I am convinced that since the day I caught the affair there's been no more contact. With that said though...he did go troll with a secret email account an online dating site that i Just busted 2 weeks ago.....

 

He's had std test, all negative.

 

I could stay in the house but honestly, my high schooler is doing terribly here. It hasn't been a good situation for him since day one and this makes it much worse. We live in a small street (only 5 neighbors) and ever since the affair came out --- long story but due to the cops coming to our house they all found out....and well now none of them speak to me or us

 

I know this sounds really crazy BUT I have zero desire to go through a court battle. I would rather walk away with nothing to my name then entertain a long crazy court battle. I have made it crystal clear when he has threatened lawyers and court that he can go get the best dang lawyer his 110+K per year can afford....and rake me through the coals but I will not stoop to his level. I will not allow my kids to experience a court battle. AND I mean every word of it. I won't play that game.

 

He hasn't threatened any of that on me since then...he knows how serious i am about that. I won't do it.

 

As I read what you wrote about your friend in the 20 year relationship it made me think...I literally sort of pushed this so far back I hadn't thought of it.

But about 5 months into our dating relationship I caught him texting an ex girlfriend making plans to meet her, sending pics, etc.... he smooth talked his way out of it and I stayed. Then for the next 7 months I continued to bust him lying and contacting girls inappropriately. Why I stayed I have no idea... then when I was 4 months pregnant with our 1st child we had a bit of a tiff about him contacting an ex (while I was pregnant) and I told him to leave that we were done. He went to a bar and took a girl back to her place. I busted him there too but somehow he convinced me it wasn't really cheating since I had broken up with him. So I never even asked questions!!!!!

 

Again--no dang idea why in the world I have stayed but now now I have a family with him. It's so sad.

 

When we first started "seeing" each other, I was seeing another guy -- no committment. I went to my now husband about 3 weeks into hanging out with him and explained I was hanging with another dude too.....he said no way you choose...I chose my now husband. Just sort of funny how since day 1 I have always been so crazy honest no matter what and he's screwed with my head so much that as I sit here I am convinced that I can not do any better then him and that he is the only thing i am worthy of.

 

Even though deep down I know that can't possibly be true.

[Captivating]

Aww....Spacewoman....

Yes, it is much more understandable now. I am so sorry!

I hope you will find peace soon and find a great man who spoils you.

Don't let anyone treat you like that again.

[understand50]

Spacewoman1414,

 

I really do not have much to offer you in the way of advise. Your husbands behavor, is as low as it can get. You can not really start to have a true reconciliation, as he is not interested. He just wants to do the least amount needed to keep you. You are better and worth more then this.

 

Some actions by you will help. Look at Lion Heart's list and see if there is anything you can copy. But the one thing you can do, is reach out to your family. Blood is always thicker then anything, and you need help. I am sure you will find they miss you, and know what a POS your husband is. Reach out to them, today, tonight, do not hesitate.

 

If I was your bother or father ..........

 

Do this, if you can do nothing else. If anything it will show you are not alone, and have support for the hard path forward.

 

I wish you luck.

[merrmeade]

Well I guess that's hard to put into words on a typed basis

 

I don't consider it battle mode rather, I have zero family. Literally I am a child who aged out of foster care. He is all I have (and on a very limited basis his family). He left me and the kids and completely turned his back on us, literally just abandoned us and yet i held my loyalty and allowed him to move us still.... so to get here and learn that I was moved to the affair and just gave up my job and forced my highschooler here and now have nothing.... I just needed some support. I don't know anyone here in the new state. We purchased a home and he put it in his name only, opened a bank acct in his name only (this was done because I wasn't in the new state and I had no issue b/c I trusted him fully) yet come to find out he was telling her it was so it would be easier for them to be together. So I guess I sort of panicked realizing holy SH** what the hell just happened to me. It wasn't to embarrass or humiliate him it was more out of a fear shock...holy crap. No money, no house, what am I going to do. Also.... at the time I called (the day I found out) he had not yet said to me that he was not leaving us for her....so I was under the assumption that indeed I was about to me told to get out of the house b/c she was moving in..

Does that make sense?

omg, this is just so WRONG. It's seems he knew EXACTLY what he was doing putting everything in his name.

 

Now, I don't know much about law but I do hear my son, an attorney, talk about the differences in states' laws in terms of what's community property and what can is shared in spite of separate accounts, mortgage, etc. So it's very important you get some legal advice about what you have a right to from the marriage based on laws in your state. I know you don't want long court battles, but it doesn't hurt just to find out what's possible. Please DON'T just take his word for it and assume you have no rights. You're married. You have children. There's an obligation, I'm sure. Just find out, okay?

[Lion Heart]

Lionheart...thanks for the encouragement you have no idea how valuable it is to me right now.

 

And this I need to tack to my forehead

You have beautiful children that love you.

You have the whit and skills to escape this.

You have rights.

You have a long life ahead of you filled with joy and delight. It's about time too.

 

 

 

OKAY so yes he has stopped all contact with the mistress. I have spoken to her several times now and I am convinced that since the day I caught the affair there's been no more contact. With that said though...he did go troll with a secret email account an online dating site that i Just busted 2 weeks ago.....

 

He's had std test, all negative.

 

I could stay in the house but honestly, my high schooler is doing terribly here. It hasn't been a good situation for him since day one and this makes it much worse. We live in a small street (only 5 neighbors) and ever since the affair came out --- long story but due to the cops coming to our house they all found out....and well now none of them speak to me or us

 

I know this sounds really crazy BUT I have zero desire to go through a court battle. I would rather walk away with nothing to my name then entertain a long crazy court battle. I have made it crystal clear when he has threatened lawyers and court that he can go get the best dang lawyer his 110+K per year can afford....and rake me through the coals but I will not stoop to his level. I will not allow my kids to experience a court battle. AND I mean every word of it. I won't play that game.

 

He hasn't threatened any of that on me since then...he knows how serious i am about that. I won't do it.

 

As I read what you wrote about your friend in the 20 year relationship it made me think...I literally sort of pushed this so far back I hadn't thought of it.

But about 5 months into our dating relationship I caught him texting an ex girlfriend making plans to meet her, sending pics, etc.... he smooth talked his way out of it and I stayed. Then for the next 7 months I continued to bust him lying and contacting girls inappropriately. Why I stayed I have no idea... then when I was 4 months pregnant with our 1st child we had a bit of a tiff about him contacting an ex (while I was pregnant) and I told him to leave that we were done. He went to a bar and took a girl back to her place. I busted him there too but somehow he convinced me it wasn't really cheating since I had broken up with him. So I never even asked questions!!!!!

 

Again--no dang idea why in the world I have stayed but now now I have a family with him. It's so sad.

 

When we first started "seeing" each other, I was seeing another guy -- no committment. I went to my now husband about 3 weeks into hanging out with him and explained I was hanging with another dude too.....he said no way you choose...I chose my now husband. Just sort of funny how since day 1 I have always been so crazy honest no matter what and he's screwed with my head so much that as I sit here I am convinced that I can not do any better then him and that he is the only thing i am worthy of.

 

Even though deep down I know that can't possibly be true.

 

Dear Spacewoman, actually I have a VERY good idea how valuable support is for you now. It's a privilege if I can offer you anything.

 

So now you have that tacked very firmly to your forehead! WHAT else do YOU have?

 

Time.

 

If your son isn't doing that well maybe less time than needed. Speak with your son. What can you both do to support him? If he can settle for at least a while, you'll feel better about the time you may need.

 

You also need:

Safety

Security

Housing

Finances

 

Brainstorm whatever you can do NOW to get those things in the case you leave.

 

I'll be back. Many others will be too now you've given us an update.

 

And hey, get ok! If WH is fair to middling in his behaviours or even off the richter, you can still look after yourself.

 

Sounds absolutely ridiculous but these are some of the things I did whilst trying to decide to R. Saw a beautician. LOTS of times. Sure I've got everything I can organize, organized (did the whole shebang as far as I could) then it was time for me. First time really! My main aim was / is to feel the best I could. I've never been a plastic person but I've gone to town with everything short of plastic surgery. Lol. NOT to prep for the meat market of dating. Yuk. To FEEL good. And right now I feel great.

 

WH has all sorts of contraptions GPS, new mobile number, transparency in all stuff and I haven't checked anything of his for months. He doesn't know that. I'm far too busy with MY stuff to bother tbh.

He** his MOTHER even checks he's at the job sites lol. I don't! She's more worried about a D than me. That's what full exposure can lead to.

 

The fewer the people that know, the less real consequences he suffers. Why should a BS suffer everything? The answer: they don't have to.

 

Just work it your way.

 

Keep posting

X

Lion Heart.

[turnera]

Spacewoman, good people are a treasure. Honest people even more of a treasure. Someone who's both...are a miracle. Once you are free and clear from this man - and after a lot of therapy to figure out how your picker is broken - you're going to have NO trouble finding a good man who will treat you like the treasure that you are.

[bathtub-row]

Spacewoman, I don't really have much advice to offer but I just want to say that I'm so sorry you're going through this living hell and nightmare. I just can't imagine. I want you to remember, though, that you do have family ties -- your children. Keep them close to you. They are your everything and you have a noble purpose in life to raise them in love and happiness. I know what you're going through is tough but don't let this diminish your relationship with your children. Find a way to get to where you want to live and make a loving home with your kids. They will be with you always. I was a single mom for years and now that my son is grown, we're still very, very close. I lost a lot of my family years ago due to religious nonsense so my son is my real strength. Someday he'll marry, have children, and my family ties will strengthen and grow. This will happen for you too.

 

And as far as your dirtbag husband is concerned, he is not changeable and he is not trustworthy. And he never will be. He has lost a beautiful person in you and he can live with that.

[ShatteredLady]

To my knowledge, in most states, it doesn't matter if your name is on the house etc. half of it is yours. Please double check.

 

This is all about you & your kids now. I know that must be very frightening, I'm very isolated. I think you're going to thrive once you get through this. Make sure that your children understand what's happening (in a very age appropriate way) kids have a way of filling-in the blanks & feeling guilty about what's going on.

 

Legally pursuing all that you deserve financially is for your FAMILY. You are entitled. Your children are entitled.

[Spacewoman1414]

I really appreciate all the input. As I said I have zero family. Absolutely zero. Lost them all as a child of foster care. As for the money. Besides the house we just bought we have no real assets. Our 401k and savings are drained. So there isn't much there to fight for anyways. The house is really it and there's no equity so I'm just as fine walking away from it. The only other things on the table are child support and possible alimony which he will fight and it's just not that worth it to me.

 

He is maintaining he wants to work things out and will do whatever it takes but I certainly don't feel like his actions are matching his words. Plus I truly don't know how to rebuild after such a selfish selfish affair threesome etc.

[Midwestmissy]

You might want to visit the chump lady site. I'm so sorry you're going through this.