Update on my situation

[georgia girl]

What I find perplexing is why cheating is considered the very worst thing that one person could do to another. No, not even remotely. The cheating that happened in my former M was the very least of the possible betrayals.

 

I think that this one hits people's hot buttons for one or two reasons. Firstly, it's a direct hit to their pride when the WS chooses an AP "over" the BS. The M could be total sh*t and completely loveless and filled with every day misery, but the BS will still feel that strike to their ego, because ... what will other people think?

 

Secondly, an A is often perceived as a threat to financial stability. If you are a BS accustomed to a certain standard of living and there's a remote chance that the WS will leave and therefore, threaten that standard, it's a big issue. People will brook all sorts of bad behavior for the sake of creature comforts, not having to work so hard on their own.

 

While I do t think that cheating is the worst thing a partner can do to another, I think it is one of the worst and I would caution against minimizing it. When you get into a relationship with someone - particularly a marriage - you leave yourself vulnerable. By loving so deeply, your heart is left a little unprotected. You have to rely on your trust in your partner that they would not do something that would violate that trust and subsequently break your heart.

 

I have to genuinely say that for me - being a child of a father who cheated - my husband cheating would be the worst thing that could happen in our marriage. It is likely because of the trigger from my dad's infidelity. It's a miracle I ever trusted my husband enough to get married in the first place and a testament to how good of a man he is that I could trust that much. But that's me. For someone who has faced a different challenge - perhaps poverty - squandering money may be the worst thing.

 

Regardless, anything a partner does that violates your trust so completely, has to rank on that list.

[WestEndGirl]

But that's me. For someone who has faced a different challenge - perhaps poverty - squandering money may be the worst thing.

 

Regardless, anything a partner does that violates your trust so completely, has to rank on that list.

 

I had a M that was annulled. Abusive. Until the person who purportedly loves you clocks you in the face, unexpectedly, you don't know betrayal—and fear. That really does something to a person that you never get over. So to me, abuse is the Big One.

[Krashi]

They are both terrible and it seems impossible to compare. If there is abuse, get out and do not cheat.

If there is cheating, get out and do not abuse.

Trying to imply that cheating is no big deal, just because there are other big deal offenses makes no sense.

Is second degree murder no big deal because there is first degree murder?

[Sub]

I had a M that was annulled. Abusive. Until the person who purportedly loves you clocks you in the face, unexpectedly, you don't know betrayal—and fear. That really does something to a person that you never get over. So to me, abuse is the Big One.

 

I'm very sorry for that. That shouldn't happen to anyone. But to say that someone else doesn't know betrayal unless the same happens to them is narrow-minded and unfair, IMO.

[anika99]

Yes, it is all relative to the quality of the M, I'm sure. I just don't understand why people toss out the word "betrayal" and the only thing that comes to mind is cheating. What's emotional, verbal, and/or physical abuse, then? What's being married to someone who screws you out of your life savings, or who racks up a crapload of mutual debt that can never be repaid? Or being married to an addict who's always losing jobs, getting arrested and making every day an exercise in misery tolerance? Or making "vows" with someone who doesn't want s*x with you, and if it does happen, it's preceded by copious amounts of begging and bargaining?

 

You tell me those aren't serious betrayals, too? Why is infidelity the very worst possible thing that can happen in a M?

 

I think the problem is that everyone takes their own situation and projects that everyone has the same experience. In the above scenario I can see how an affair could happen. I wouldn't say an affair is a good choice but I can see how a spouse can feel so broken, taken for granted and ignored that they can become weak for the first person who comes along and treats them like they are attractive and like they matter. Of course it still begs the question of why stay in a marriage that is so awful anyways? Many people would not tolerate even half of what you described above. They would have been out the door long before they were tempted to cheat. You can hold your husband responsible for his actions but you can't blame him for your choice to stay with such a crappy person and then claim your affair was his fault. However, he obviously had no problem treating you like crap so I don't feel sorry for him, but it's a shame you chose to stay in such an awful situation for so long.

 

 

I don't think a marriage has to have problems in order for cheating to occur. I think that cheating for a MW can be very different than cheating for a MM. Often the biggest problem is with the cheater themselves. Often the cheating MM is conflict avoidant and/or self-entitled. In my own experience, most couples I know where the male has cheated, he was generally the dominant and most selfish one in the marriage. The cheating man often has a whole bunch issues that make them think that cheating is okay. People with personality disorders like narcissism or BPD often resort to cheating just to make themselves feel good. I think a lot of the time the cheater is just an abusive selfish jerk overall and by reading this board there are many stories that paint that picture. Of course there are always exceptions.

[WestEndGirl]

I'm very sorry for that. That shouldn't happen to anyone. But to say that someone else doesn't know betrayal unless the same happens to them is narrow-minded and unfair, IMO.

 

Each betrayal is unique in its own way. No one will evoke the exact same (intense) feelings. I do think that cheating is unique, because it is covert. If a BS knew about it, he or she could feel a certain way about it, so that element of feeling "duped" is the killer. With abuse, you have the added emotion of fear for your own livelihood, dread, and of course, the regulars, like shame, embarrassment, and low self-esteem. If one's spouse tears the finances apart, you live in constant worry if you'll have shelter and food. There is no "one size fits all". But just for me, the fear of being physically hurt, and possibly ceasing to exist as a result of it, was far, far, far worse than any A I could imagine.

[Krashi]

Each betrayal is unique in its own way. No one will evoke the exact same (intense) feelings. I do think that cheating is unique, because it is covert. If a BS knew about it, he or she could feel a certain way about it, so that element of feeling "duped" is the killer. With abuse, you have the added emotion of fear for your own livelihood, dread, and of course, the regulars, like shame, embarrassment, and low self-esteem. If one's spouse tears the finances apart, you live in constant worry if you'll have shelter and food. There is no "one size fits all". But just for me, the fear of being physically hurt, and possibly ceasing to exist as a result of it, was far, far, far worse than any A I could imagine.

Not for me. I had my face broken via 2x4, once. The cheati g was worse.

Also raped by a man when I wax in 5th grade. Affair wss tougher for me. Must be diiferent for the individual, but, clearly, to make light of infidelity ,just because one feels physical abuse is worse, is an attempt to belittle the pain of a victim.

[WestEndGirl]

Of course it still begs the question of why stay in a marriage that is so awful anyways? Many people would not tolerate even half of what you described above. They would have been out the door long before they were tempted to cheat.

 

Just to be clear: I wasn't describing my M to my exH in the above -- just listing various things that I see my friends "endure". You'd be surprised at how much sh*t people will take in an awful M. One of my elderly family members stayed in a 60+ year M with an abusive spouse because she honestly believed that D "went against god's will". Another friend, a peer, stayed in a M where her H had been cheating for years because she didn't want to give up a really nice house and have to go to work--if he hadn't left her for his lover, she would have been content to remain, for the rest of her life, because him cheating wasn't as bad (in her eyes) as earning a living.

 

And the worst: my male friend, who's been banished to the garage apartment for the past 10 years by his W. She won't divorce him, though, because again, she needs his paycheck, and he doesn't want to lose access to their kids.

 

Some people will put themselves through all kinds of humiliating and soul-destroying Ms--even to the point where their lives are endangered-before they'll get a D. And if you ask me, it's crazy. I would never (again) put myself through that. Life's too short.

[Sub]

Each betrayal is unique in its own way. No one will evoke the exact same (intense) feelings. I do think that cheating is unique, because it is covert. If a BS knew about it, he or she could feel a certain way about it, so that element of feeling "duped" is the killer. With abuse, you have the added emotion of fear for your own livelihood, dread, and of course, the regulars, like shame, embarrassment, and low self-esteem. If one's spouse tears the finances apart, you live in constant worry if you'll have shelter and food. There is no "one size fits all". But just for me, the fear of being physically hurt, and possibly ceasing to exist as a result of it, was far, far, far worse than any A I could imagine.

 

I understand. But I think you can find the same extremes in A's. There are A's where the WS and AP plot to kill the BS. A's that result in transmitting STD's or pregnancies. Those things can have a huge effect on livelihood and finances. It's not that hard to imagine, IMO.

[Poppy47]

I had a M that was annulled. Abusive. Until the person who purportedly loves you clocks you in the face, unexpectedly, you don't know betrayal—and fear. That really does something to a person that you never get over. So to me, abuse is the Big One.

 

Happened to me too. Something gets broken and it never heals.

Poppy.

[georgia girl]

WestEndGirl,

 

First, I am so incredibly sorry for what you went through. You are absolutely correct - I don't know that kind of fear or betrayal. Additionally, I would agree that even the threat of violence from a partner is one of the worst things that could happen.

 

However, I do take exception to your statement that I don't know betrayal. Just as I was starting to like boys and dating for the very first time, I found out accidentally about my father's affair. It nearly destroyed my family in so many ways. I was just learning about sex and couldn't look at my father. He literally creeped me out. There was so much bad that happened I our family over - unfortunately - a very long period of time, that it still triggers me. So, I do know betrayal - at least what it means to me.

 

Sorry for the thread jack, Jos. I hope things are going well. It sounds like things are sad but at least more calm. Best of luck. It will get better.

[goodyblue]

My Xw was verbally abusive, witheld intimacy, as well. But, i was aware of itvs d made the decision to tty to work on the marriage.

You fail to address the clandestine nature of cheating depriving one of choice.

That is a critical distinction.

 

Agreed, secrecy is bad. At the same time... it may not be as bad to some as is withholding intimacy. My guy didn't choose to work on the marriage, he felt trapped into staying. Again... you are making the decision which is worse, when what you think is worse may not be worse for another.

 

I also think coming to the OW forum for you is an exercise in superiority.

Edited December 6, 2015 by goodyblue

[WestEndGirl]

Agreed, secrecy is bad. At the same time... it may not be as bad to some as is withholding intimacy. My guy didn't choose to work on the marriage, he felt trapped into staying. Again... you are making the decision which is worse, when what you think is worse may not be worse for another.

 

Staying in a M when you don't want to be there is a serious betrayal, IMHO. Doesn't matter if an AP is in the picture or not. Can you imagine finding out, 20 years down the line, that your partner only stayed out of obligation, and they had been unhappy and wanted out for at least a decade? Or most of those 20 years? I cannot even begin to fathom it.

[goodyblue]

Staying in a M when you don't want to be there is a serious betrayal, IMHO. Doesn't matter if an AP is in the picture or not. Can you imagine finding out, 20 years down the line, that your partner only stayed out of obligation, and they had been unhappy and wanted out for at least a decade? Or most of those 20 years? I cannot even begin to fathom it.

 

Do you think she wasn't aware? She was. she said tlwhen she was angry right after he left, that no matter what she did he should not end the marriage because they are Catholic.

Edited December 6, 2015 by goodyblue

[Josmatjes]

You had myriad other options, though. Why hurt your husband and the other man's wife and kids( if he had some).

This is where your justifications fail you. There was absolutely no necessity for going this route. You were not trapped a d could have been free without hurting innocents.

 

 

Your right. But we are all human and make mistakes. And sometimes we just don't see the reality of what we are doing. It's like sleep walking and then you wake up and realized you trashed your room. You vaquely remember doing it and don't know why or what possessed you. Sad but true...

[goodyblue]

They are both terrible and it seems impossible to compare. If there is abuse, get out and do not cheat.

If there is cheating, get out and do not abuse.

Trying to imply that cheating is no big deal, just because there are other big deal offenses makes no sense.

Is second degree murder no big deal because there is first degree murder?

 

I, for one, never said one was worse/better than another. You were the one saying one was worse.

[NewLeaf512]

I think the problem is that everyone takes their own situation and projects that everyone has the same experience. In the above scenario I can see how an affair could happen. I wouldn't say an affair is a good choice but I can see how a spouse can feel so broken, taken for granted and ignored that they can become weak for the first person who comes along and treats them like they are attractive and like they matter. Of course it still begs the question of why stay in a marriage that is so awful anyways? Many people would not tolerate even half of what you described above. They would have been out the door long before they were tempted to cheat. You can hold your husband responsible for his actions but you can't blame him for your choice to stay with such a crappy person and then claim your affair was his fault. However, he obviously had no problem treating you like crap so I don't feel sorry for him, but it's a shame you chose to stay in such an awful situation for so long.

 

 

I don't think a marriage has to have problems in order for cheating to occur. I think that cheating for a MW can be very different than cheating for a MM. Often the biggest problem is with the cheater themselves. Often the cheating MM is conflict avoidant and/or self-entitled. In my own experience, most couples I know where the male has cheated, he was generally the dominant and most selfish one in the marriage. The cheating man often has a whole bunch issues that make them think that cheating is okay. People with personality disorders like narcissism or BPD often resort to cheating just to make themselves feel good. I think a lot of the time the cheater is just an abusive selfish jerk overall and by reading this board there are many stories that paint that picture. Of course there are always exceptions.

 

 

Annika

 

 

In my opinion the problem is always with the WW / WH because the material issue is that whatever the causal event: no intimacy, alcoholism, workaholism, abuse, gambling, financial betrayal, cheating/ having an A doesn't fix anything, it makes the cheater as bad as/ complicit in a toxic situation.

 

 

Divorce is not easy, in fact it sucks, but it seems better than the alternative.

[yodelwithyu]

Not for me. I had my face broken via 2x4, once. The cheati g was worse.

Also raped by a man when I wax in 5th grade. Affair wss tougher for me. Must be diiferent for the individual, but, clearly, to make light of infidelity ,just because one feels physical abuse is worse, is an attempt to belittle the pain of a victim.

 

Krashi, I have to say that a lot of what you write on the OW/OM forum seems very condescending and caustic, and sometimes outright irrelevant to topics at hand. I understand that you are writing from the point of view of a BS, but telling every single OW to grow a conscience and think of the BS is not necessary all of the time. I have often wondered what exactly you are trying to achieve...to teach OW something or to learn something yourself. Everyone has a trigger, and perhaps you are not in the place emotionally yet to be on this side of the forum. The fact is, that there are other people on other parts of this forum who whole heartedly share your viewpoints, and would gladly discuss them with you. In my opinion, always kicking someone when they are down is quite a bad form, especially when you seem to be projecting. I have avoided saying this before, as I have no desire to belittle someone or get on their bad side or start an argument. But as I was going to address you anyway, I thought I might let you know, but not to antagonize you.

 

Having said all of that, I just wanted to tell you that I am so sorry you have been physically and sexually assaulted. NO ONE should have to endure something like that, and especially not at such a precarious age. I am so very sorry you went through that.

[Krashi]

Krashi, I have to say that a lot of what you write on the OW/OM forum seems very condescending and caustic, and sometimes outright irrelevant to topics at hand. I understand that you are writing from the point of view of a BS, but telling every single OW to grow a conscience and think of the BS is not necessary all of the time. I have often wondered what exactly you are trying to achieve...to teach OW something or to learn something yourself. Everyone has a trigger, and perhaps you are not in the place emotionally yet to be on this side of the forum. The fact is, that there are other people on other parts of this forum who whole heartedly share your viewpoints, and would gladly discuss them with you. In my opinion, always kicking someone when they are down is quite a bad form, especially when you seem to be projecting. I have avoided saying this before, as I have no desire to belittle someone or get on their bad side or start an argument. But as I was going to address you anyway, I thought I might let you know, but not to antagonize you.

 

Having said all of that, I just wanted to tell you that I am so sorry you have been physically and sexually assaulted. NO ONE should have to endure something like that, and especially not at such a precarious age. I am so very sorry you went through that.

 

I guess I do not consider advising someone who is abusing othets to use his or her conscience belittling.

[goodyblue]

I guess I do not consider advising someone who is abusing othets to use his or her conscience belittling.

 

Just so we are clear... Are you accusing all OW of being abusers?

[yodelwithyu]

I guess I do not consider advising someone who is abusing othets to use his or her conscience belittling.

 

n my opinion, always kicking someone when they are down is quite a bad form, especially when you seem to be projecting. I have avoided saying this before, as I have no desire to belittle someone or get on their bad side or start an argument. But as I was going to address you anyway, I thought I might let you know, but not to antagonize you.

 

I actually meant I haven't said those things to you because I didn't want to belittle YOU or start an argument.

[sandylee1]

For me, it was more the theft of my time. I was pretty good looking at the time, I am told, really in shape and making a lot of $$. So, I was fooled into foregoing intimate relations eith quite a few really attractive women and living like a monk. Cannot get back that time and cannot get back into a time machine to regain thhose aspects of myself.

 

This is a very good point about wasting your time. You could have been with other better women... not being betrayed.

 

I also agree that you know you're being abused. You may choose to stay out of love or lack of confidence, but you are not being deceived.

 

With cheating ... The choice is taken away from you as you think all is well.

[sandylee1]

I actually meant I haven't said those things to you because I didn't want to belittle YOU or start an argument.

 

I think his point about sexually abused was to show he had suffered that pain and the pain of infidelity . It wasn't irrelevant...

 

It also wouldn't harm to remind the OW and OM that there is a BS in the mix of the affair.. because it doesn't seem like the OW/OM spare a second thinking about the BS. If they are mentioned.. it's usually to demonise them.

[Krashi]

Agreed, secrecy is bad. At the same time... it may not be as bad to some as is withholding intimacy. My guy didn't choose to work on the marriage, he felt trapped into staying. Again... you are making the decision which is worse, when what you think is worse may not be worse for another.

 

I also think coming to the OW forum for you is an exercise in superiority.[/QUOTI do not believe I gave my feelings on what type of abuse is worse.

[ladydesigner]

Hi LD

 

I never blamed BS for the A. Sorry for being daft but what is a mad hatter?

 

Thanks

NL

 

It is when the BS has an A after the WS' A.

 

 

Physical abuse is abuse, mental abuse is abuse, then there is sexual abuse.

 

I feel affairs can be all of the above. They are physically abusive and sexually abusive at the same time due to STD's. I happened to get 2 kinds of STD's during my WH's A with MOW and my WH had the audacity to ask me if I wass cheating

 

Affairs are mentally abuse because often both the MM and OW are gaslighting the BS so she doesn't suspect the A. I cannot tell you the lies I heard both from my WH and the MOW after Dday. Not one thing was true. That can really drive a person over the edge.

 

Oh I now have ptsd that won't go away due to triggers, nice! I am now permanently on medication to help me "just get through life normally."

 

If affairs aren't abusive, y'all need to take a closer look.