If a friend said this to you, would you call them out on it?

[Zapbasket]

If I were her husband, I'd be upset she said that to you!

 

Yeah--it was insensitive moreso to me, but also to him, to repeat something that he probably said never imagining that I'd be privy to it.

 

"Underachiever" can mean different things to different people. Maybe for them it means a lack of confidence in your abilities as an artist that has prevented you from being all you can be.

 

I would ask her exactly what she meant, since it bothers you a lot.

 

And that's probably how she meant it. At least, I hope so.

[lana-banana]

I am certain the husband meant what you and others have assumed: that you are obviously a bright, capable person unwilling or unable to maximize that potential. It's still not a nice thing to say, but it's clearly not meant as an insult, either.

 

Tell your friend you appreciate her honesty and hope you can continue to be open about everything, but the comment really stung. (Given her hesitation in saying it, she was aware you might react that way, so she shouldn't be surprised.) And perhaps from there you can go on to a productive conversation about how you each define "achievement" and what that means to you. And then maybe you can go out for whiskey.

 

PS: I know "overachievers" who would kill to be half as talented as you are. Don't forget that.

[Zapbasket]

Well, I just had to get this situation out of my hair and do something about it, so I went ahead and emailed my friend. I'm really trying to be more direct with everyone in my life, more honest about my desires and feelings, and so I'd really like to hear what you guys think of my response. I didn't want to put her on the defensive, or give her reason to think I took her words to heart like I think I actually am an "underachiever." I just wanted to open a dialogue because to do otherwise would have caused this to hang out in the back of my mind and possibly caused me to distance myself from her. Here's what I said:

 

Hey Jade,

 

Great meeting with you for dinner on Sunday. There was something you said that I haven't been able to get out of my mind and I didn't want to make any assumptions about your meaning. You asked me if I thought I was an underachiever and told me that Rick [her husband] had said I was a "classic underachiever."

 

I know you didn't mean any kind of insult, of course...but it took me aback because at no time in my entire life, now or before, has anyone, particularly anyone who knows me at all, ever referred to me as an underachiever, or put me anywhere near that category. And for me, the term "underachiever" is vaguely synonymous with "loser," as in, someone with no gumption to make anything of their life. In that sense, there is not anyone I would call a friend whom I also would dub as an underachiever--all of my friends are very accomplished people, and "underachiever" is a word I'd reserve for people I don't respect or feel any sense of commonality with.

 

I'm sure, then, that your and Rick's definition of "underachiever" is different from mine, but I had a reaction similar to the kind of reaction someone who thinks the "c" word is an unspeakably bad epithet would have around someone who uses the "c" word like it's just a casual, teasing term you would use with friends. Same word, different meaning, different effect that belies what's probably the same, and benign, intent. That's why I just wanted to solicit clarification from you. I don't like to leave anything hanging between a friend and me. I'm not insulted (and don't worry about potentially insulting me), just, "Huh?" So, huh? What did you mean?

 

Green Cove

 

Thoughts appreciated. I'll let you know how she responds (hopefully well).

[Zapbasket]

I am certain the husband meant what you and others have assumed: that you are obviously a bright, capable person unwilling or unable to maximize that potential. It's still not a nice thing to say, but it's clearly not meant as an insult, either.

 

Tell your friend you appreciate her honesty and hope you can continue to be open about everything, but the comment really stung. (Given her hesitation in saying it, she was aware you might react that way, so she shouldn't be surprised.) And perhaps from there you can go on to a productive conversation about how you each define "achievement" and what that means to you. And then maybe you can go out for whiskey.

 

PS: I know "overachievers" who would kill to be half as talented as you are. Don't forget that.

 

Thanks, friend. I hope the note I did write her is exactly along the lines of what you wisely advised here (and that I read after I'd already sent the note!).

[BC1980]

if you can't have these kinds of conversations with friends, then indeed what IS the point of the friendship?

 

I think that's the heart of it. If she really is a good friend, she would be open to hearing that she hurt your feelings. About a year ago, I went to dinner with a friend I hadn't seen in months. She spent the dinner texting her BF. I was really hurt, so I said something to her. She actually agreed with me and apologized. I would never have done that a few years ago. I would have just let it go because I didn't want to make her feel uncomfortable.

 

BTW, I don't think you are an underachiever.

[Erised]

I love my friends who can say anything to me, and to whom I can say anything.

If I don't have that, it's hardly a close friendship, and I'm not going to risk that by dropping them if it hurts my feelings.

Sometimes I agree, sometimes I don't, sometimes it hurts, sometimes it doesn't...

[beatcuff]

the hardest thing for a friend to do is tell them something they do not want to hear. but a true friend will, should, must. otherwise they are just a --- cheerleader: phony, no different than that 10th place, everyone gets a medal crap.

 

it is obvious this was part of a discussion: it was not done with malice. a key part is this ---

 

... Jade ... about 20 years older than me

 

with this age gap she is more a mentor.

 

by your responses including:

 

It's just that it feels so absurd, it makes me question the friendship. I mean, if I think someone is an underachiever, I don't want to be friends with them...

 

you are shooting the messenger not the message. fine surround yourself with 'yes men'/medals, you will feel great, but you will EVENTUALLY come to realize the praise is hollow/empty.

 

so what to do: first drop the passive/aggressive stance:

 

I'm thinking about addressing this with her--saying something along the lines of, "I feel a bit confused by your question from dinner last night--have you been hanging out with my twin who happens to be the opposite of me?"

 

at your next meeting (not before) bring it up. start with "i appreciate your honestly... what did you mean". do not argue. LISTEN. digest it. maybe she is correct maybe not. only upon honest reflection can that be determined.

 

it will be painful. unfortunately (as i have stated elsewhere) parents have done a huge disservice by taking away the most important lesson of sports: there are losers, failures. but failure is the greatest teacher. when you win was it because of superior training, game plan, or... (a/k/a 'yes men'). failure will cause you to stop, reassess, reflect... maybe you are correct (your friend is wrong) or maybe not. i/we can not answer that and i am concerned that several have 'assumed' she is wrong. there is no way of knowing without knowing.

 

lastly --- SO WHAT? if you enjoy her company and she yours does it matter whether you are or are not... i have all types of friends: type A, type B.... executives and mechanics, union and not, heavy drinkers and not, pot smokers and not... what a boring life to have only one type of friend.

 

you should treasure her honestly. true friends are very difficult to come by.

[Zapbasket]

Thanks, guys. To be clear, I very, very much appreciate and desire honesty from my friends, even if it hurts. I do the same for my friends in return. But one thing that's also important in a mutual policy of honesty, I think, is being able to have a discussion that clarifies what was intended. That's what I'm trying to do with her.

 

I did already email her to address what she said. I assured her I wasn't offended but just wanted to understand what she meant.

 

There are people who use "honesty" as a way to do a "drive-by" of sorts, getting in an insult and using "I'm just being honest" as an excuse. I think what separates "honest" friends of this sort from truly honest friends is the willingness to clarify what they meant. I do believe Jade is this latter kind of friend.

[Minnie09]

Thanks, guys. To be clear, I very, very much appreciate and desire honesty from my friends, even if it hurts. I do the same for my friends in return. But one thing that's also important in a mutual policy of honesty, I think, is being able to have a discussion that clarifies what was intended. That's what I'm trying to do with her.

 

I did already email her to address what she said. I assured her I wasn't offended but just wanted to understand what she meant.

 

There are people who use "honesty" as a way to do a "drive-by" of sorts, getting in an insult and using "I'm just being honest" as an excuse. I think what separates "honest" friends of this sort from truly honest friends is the willingness to clarify what they meant. I do believe Jade is this latter kind of friend.

 

This, and I can't stand people who are so cowardish and passive-aggressive that they have to quote a third party that isn't even there. In this case: the hubby (that's a common one)......I had "friends" like that too. Took me a while to figure them out, because I appreciate direct honesty (not talking about insulting ppl ..... I just like to be blunt) - so I couldn't quite put the finger on certain types of behavior. But soandso said about you that "......" (Insert passive-aggressive remark of your choice, camouflaged as "good advice" or somebody else's "opinion") ------ means that they're too chicken to tell you what they really think about you. And that they actually don't like you very much. Otherwise - they would go about a conversation like that COMPLETELY differently.

Edited October 28, 2015 by Minnie09

[candie13]

your friend sounds judgmental. Thing is, on certain matters, most people will be judgmental. Sometimes it's the quality of your bf. Other times it may be the number of people you've slept with. Other times that you are an under achiever.

 

It is their burden to bare. As long as they are supporting you, listening to you and giving you sound advice... I guess... that makes them human?

 

You don't even have to justify in front of those friends of yours. They may think whatever they like, you know your own worth. You will get there when you get there, it's your own journey, you are setting up your own pace. If, anything, I'd find that remark amusing, coming from a sports teacher, hehe.

 

You are battling your own insecurities and... your friend is not responsible for that. Don't make it weird. I'd make a mental note of it and drop it.

[Zapbasket]

This, and I can't stand people who are so cowardish and passive-aggressive that they have to quote a third party that isn't even there. In this case: the hubby (that's a common one)......I had "friends" like that too. Took me a while to figure them out, because I appreciate direct honesty (not talking about insulting ppl ..... I just like to be blunt) - so I couldn't quite put the finger on certain types of behavior. But soandso said about you that "......" (Insert passive-aggressive remark of your choice, camouflaged as "good advice" or somebody else's "opinion") ------ means that they're too chicken to tell you what they really think about you. And that they actually don't like you very much. Otherwise - they would go about a conversation like that COMPLETELY differently.

 

I really hope that's not the case with Jade. But, I'll just have to see how she responds to my email (I posted what I wrote on the first page of this thread). If she doesn't respond, or acts annoyed that I addressed it, then I guess I'll have to take it from there.

[Httm]

Thanks, guys. To be clear, I very, very much appreciate and desire honesty from my friends, even if it hurts.

 

Your earlier posts say that you only want people that tell you what you want to hear, or as someone else pointed out, "yes men." You may tell yourself that you want people to be honest, but yet, here you are freaking out about one comment was made in an attempt at honesty... and you respond with an email?

What are you? 12? You should have confronted her for clarification at the time or at least do it over the phone or in person again...

[Zapbasket]

your friend sounds judgmental. Thing is, on certain matters, most people will be judgmental. Sometimes it's the quality of your bf. Other times it may be the number of people you've slept with. Other times that you are an under achiever.

 

It is their burden to bare. As long as they are supporting you, listening to you and giving you sound advice... I guess... that makes them human?

 

You don't even have to justify in front of those friends of yours. They may think whatever they like, you know your own worth. You will get there when you get there, it's your own journey, you are setting up your own pace. If, anything, I'd find that remark amusing, coming from a sports teacher, hehe.

 

You are battling your own insecurities and... your friend is not responsible for that. Don't make it weird. I'd make a mental note of it and drop it.

 

I totally agree with you and I'll have to think it over more but...while I think that sure, we're all judgmental, even of people we love, there's judgment with respect intact, and judgment with a lack of respect. I sometimes judge my best friend for decisions she makes and approaches she takes to things in her life, but I deeply RESPECT her no matter what she does; I respect who she IS. I have another person in my life who started out as a friend, and as far as he's concerned we're friends, but I'm beginning to realize that not only do I judge him regarding certain things he has done, I also find myself unable to truly respect him. I'm still sussing out what I feel in relation to this person, but if I find that I just can't respect him, then I'm going to have to fade out our friendship.

 

In that light, I agree with you that given I know I'm not an underachiever, who cares that Jade and her husband think I am, or why they think that...but if what is at play here is that they don't really respect me, then that's not something I can deal with. Why would I want friends who don't fundamentally respect who I am as a person?

 

I did think about just letting it lie, but I guess that's really my lingering question--less what they meant by "underachiever," and more whether this is a friendship of mutual respect or...something that I wouldn't quite call "friendship."

 

I agree with you that no one is responsible for our personal insecurities, but if we act on the surface like a "friend" to someone, we ARE responsible for how we treat that person. And being a good friend means that when someone says they're hurt by an action or words of yours, then you are willing to explain where you were coming from.

 

Or so I feel. Thanks for making me think.

[Zapbasket]

Your earlier posts say that you only want people that tell you what you want to hear, or as someone else pointed out, "yes men."

 

Ummm, where did I say that?

 

You may tell yourself that you want people to be honest, but yet, here you are freaking out about one comment was made in an attempt at honesty... and you respond with an email?

What are you? 12? You should have confronted her for clarification at the time or at least do it over the phone or in person again...

 

I don't think anywhere on here I have "freaked out," but rather asked for advice on how I might best perceive / handle the situation. Also, as I stated, we live 3.5 hours apart and she is going out of state for the winter, so it could be many months before I have opportunity to see her again, and I didn't want to wait that long. As for confronting her at the time, I was a little taken aback in the moment and didn't want to be reactive.

Edited October 28, 2015 by GreenCove

[Els]

I don't think it was wrong of her to say that at all. If she had said that out of the blue, then yes, completely rude and uncalled-for. But in this case, you (1) were complaining about things that she probably felt she had to offer advice for, and (2) you explicitly told her to go ahead and say what she was thinking.

 

She may or may not be right, and of course you have the right to disagree with her, but I don't think it was rude of her to say that when you asked her to speak her mind.

[anna121]

Hm.

 

I think comparing your reaction to what Jade said to a reaction to someone using the "c" word was a bit much.

[Zapbasket]

I don't think it was wrong of her to say that at all. If she had said that out of the blue, then yes, completely rude and uncalled-for. But in this case, you (1) were complaining about things that she probably felt she had to offer advice for, and (2) you explicitly told her to go ahead and say what she was thinking.

 

She may or may not be right, and of course you have the right to disagree with her, but I don't think it was rude of her to say that when you asked her to speak her mind.

 

I agree. I truly do want friends to speak their mind...but the truth is in doing so they might hurt the other person. And there's nothing wrong, I don't think, with my feeling a bit hurt and wanting clarification. That's me speaking MY mind. I haven't always felt this way; I've often been afraid of voicing hurt or upset at something someone said, for fear of rocking the boat. But honesty does rock boats, doesn't it? Whether for good or bad, I suppose, depends upon the parties involved.

[Zapbasket]

Hm.

 

I think comparing your reaction to what Jade said to a reaction to someone using the "c" word was a bit much.

 

Maybe...but truthfully, the word "underachiever" is a big trigger word for me. As someone who has always been artistic and prone to pursuing my own path rather than follow a prescribed route, to anything, people who do things more "traditionally" have charged me with all kinds of things. I'm sure such people have thought I'm an "underachiever" at times, too. But these people usually are not my FRIENDS. To me, the word "underachiever" is more offensive than the "c" word. I use "underachiever" to describe a person's character more than their position in life, and so having that term applied to me feels like a character malignment. It's very possible that my friend doesn't mean it to describe character but more the fact that I'm working a job beneath my qualifications, and have been for several years. But this is why I want clarification.

[beatcuff]

I did already email her to address what she said.

 

big mistake. its odd that while the means of communications are more plentiful, the young fail to realize the most important mode:

 

face to face: it requires spontaneity, thereby gaining more 'truth'. even better you get to read their body language which tips you off as to whether their words agree with their thoughts.

 

so you send an email. she reads it. dwells. types. edits. walks away. reedits. sleeps on it. reedits and sends it. a/k/a watered down not to insult/cause trouble. she is not stupid (i think) she knows you do not want the truth you want to feel better.

 

this is supported by:

 

Your earlier posts say that you only want people that tell you what you want to hear, or as someone else pointed out, "yes men."

 

Ummm, where did I say that?

 

seriously? this thread is only 3 pages, try this:

 

After I got home, I felt more offended than I realized at the time. First of all, I'd never tell someone a negative comment a third party said about them,

 

and here:

 

it just seemed like a rather rude, judgmental ... to say.

 

and here:

 

I just don't see how you can use that term and not mean it as an insult?

 

and that is only the first page...

 

then you proceed to tell us:

 

As someone who has always been artistic and prone to pursuing my own path rather than follow a prescribed route, to anything, people who do things more "traditionally" have charged me with all kinds of things. I'm sure such people have thought I'm an "underachiever" at times, too. But these people usually are not my FRIENDS.

 

so three pages later and you have finally, honestly, reflected and realized your friend is right (underline). it appears you just do not want to hear it --- at least from friends (bold).

 

but are you an underachiever? it is obvious you think you are, otherwise as the first responders stated: why care. let it roll off you. but it does not.

 

so does it matter? we all underachieve in some aspects of our lives. we could all be better parents, spouses, employees, humans and even friends. accept who you are: determine if that makes you happy, if it does carry on, after all its your life not hers or mine. if not (happy), make changes to obtain that goal: whichever goal YOU want.

 

too many parents desire their children to be successful (fine) but they gauge success with money. what a miserable way to spend 1/3 your life. and no doubt that creeps into the other thirds. chose a job you enjoy no matter the pay, those jobs are not jobs. then stop worrying what others think.

 

OR wallow in self pity surround yourself with cheerleaders and look for 'triggers'.

 

good luck.

[RedRobin]

I have students I'd consider underachievers.

 

They claim to try. Yet there is always a reason they didn't do well on the test, couldn't get their assignment in on time, or couldn't be in class.

 

Then when they do poorly, it's "but I tried so hard"

 

This is in spite of the fact that most of them have taken very few of my suggestions... someone who has actually accomplished something that they hope to accomplish.

 

Maybe your friend is tired of hearing about all the things you tried to do and would like you to be the positive person you claim to want to be and attract into your life.

 

Stop complaining about all of the things that didn't work and get to work on those things you want to do better in. No excuses.

[Httm]

Here is another quote showing that you are more interested in yes men.

 

I want to be surrounded by positive people, who inspire me with their energetic and honest approach to life, and most importantly, who support me 100% and believe in me

 

 

"I don't care what they think..."- Yes, you VERY much do.. as evidenced by you absolutely freaking out and creating a four page discussion on an internet forum about it. Most people love creating fantasies of what they think or want themselves to be. Perhaps this is what you are confused with.

 

"but I do care what kinds of friends they are showing themselves to be."- Honest people, giving you the feedback that you are asking for, in order to help a problem that you came out and complained about?

 

No, what you really mean is that you wanted them to tell you exactly what you wanted to hear. And when you heard criticism, you absolutely freaked, can't handle it, and want to demonize them rather than deal with the possible substance of the message and what they meant by it. This is typical of most people and is fine, but please do not create some fabrication that they are bad people or that you are in ANY way capable of handling criticism or that you don't care what other people say or think. You are clearly VERY MUCH affected by it. You will do anything possible in order to discredit the person in your mind so you don't need to deal with the message.

 

And a super odd comment- "I mean, if I think someone is an underachiever, I don't want to be friends with them. "- What? Why? What does their ambition have to do with the quality of them as an individual?

[Zapbasket]

Here is another quote showing that you are more interested in yes men.

 

 

 

 

"I don't care what they think..."- Yes, you VERY much do.. as evidenced by you absolutely freaking out and creating a four page discussion on an internet forum about it. Most people love creating fantasies of what they think or want themselves to be. Perhaps this is what you are confused with.

 

"but I do care what kinds of friends they are showing themselves to be."- Honest people, giving you the feedback that you are asking for, in order to help a problem that you came out and complained about?

 

No, what you really mean is that you wanted them to tell you exactly what you wanted to hear. And when you heard criticism, you absolutely freaked, can't handle it, and want to demonize them rather than deal with the possible substance of the message and what they meant by it. This is typical of most people and is fine, but please do not create some fabrication that they are bad people or that you are in ANY way capable of handling criticism or that you don't care what other people say or think. You are clearly VERY MUCH affected by it. You will do anything possible in order to discredit the person in your mind so you don't need to deal with the message.

 

And a super odd comment- "I mean, if I think someone is an underachiever, I don't want to be friends with them. "- What? Why? What does their ambition have to do with the quality of them as an individual?

 

Hmmm. If I thought they were "bad people," or wanted to think that, then there would be no point to this thread, would there? Your last statement underscores the whole reason this thread exists: the way I define an "underachiever," it is a statement of character, of someone who is largely apathetic and uninterested in developing as a person. So, no, the way I define underachiever, I wouldn't want to be friends with someone I'd call an "underachiever." Therefore, since clearly Jade has chosen to be friends with me for five whole years, she must not define "underachiever" the way I do. And therefore, I decided to ask her for clarification on what she meant. If wanting to understand someone's intent and meaning better constitutes "freaking out," then sure, I'm sitting over here with lightning bolts shooting out of my azz. But I think what's really happening is that I'm trying to get on the same page as someone I trust is my friend. At the same time, having been in multiple situations in recent years where people I thought were my friends behaved in ways that clearly showed they were not--and no, not because they weren't my cluster of "yes-men" I apparently choose to surround myself with (hilarious, really--I happen to have friends who call me out on stuff all the time, but since you're so clear on what I prefer in a friendship, we'll go with your story)--I'm trying to be much more cautious about what I accept in a friendship, and what I don't.

 

I think calling anyone an "underachiever" potentially opens the floor for exactly the kind of situation I'm facing. What if I asked Jade whether she and her husband consider themselves underachievers? After all, he was just a gym teacher, and she went to a state school and didn't even make it to middle management in her chosen profession. Frankly, no, I don't look up to them as "mentors"; I very much consider myself equal to them, and more, in terms of professional attainment, but I don't really care about that; I just like them as people. I'm sure had the tables been reversed, Jade would be wondering what I really thought of her if I asked that.

 

Anyway, in the end, I'm glad I spoke up, no matter what the outcome. I'm already learning a lot from this whole experience, including this thread. So, thanks.

[SpiralOut]

I do not think the term "underachiever" is an insult. If anything, I see it as a compliment because it means that people think you are capable of great things.

 

I am an underachiever myself. This doesn't mean that I don't have goals or ambitions, or that I lack intelligence or am incompetent. It just means that I don't always go after exactly what I want, and it's because I lack confidence. The lack of confidence stems from problems in my childhood, which I have worked very hard to work through.

 

When someone is an underachiever it is due to a lack of belief in themselves and it does not necessarily mean that they are apathetic. That is an over-generalization. They can have big dreams and goals, yet choose to not act on them. Or, they could try to act on them, only to sabotage themselves. Someone who does this is not a bad person or someone to look down upon. Your friend's comment bothered you because you see it as a "bad" word. Is it ideal to be an underachiever? No, but once someone recognizes that trait in themselves, they can choose to make changes.

 

Your friend's comment could be interpreted in different ways. It depends on how she said it. A person could TRY to use it as an insult if they want, but you don't need to take it that way.

 

ETA: I wouldn't appreciate a friend telling me "so and so thinks you are a classic under-achiever!!" That's not necessary. It would bother me to know that friends were talking about me like that. I think that your friend could have worded things in a more sensitive way.

Edited October 29, 2015 by SpiralOut