Emotionally closed off

[katielee]

 

So I had to reprogram my brain to start seeing my comments to my H in terms of 'does he hear that as me saying he's screwing up?' And if so, I had to put in a little extra effort to communicate it in a 'we' voice, or a 'team' situation.

 

this is a really good point. Because if I say ANYTHING, he interprets it as that he's not doing something right. In a marriage, we should calmly be able to say that something bothers us. Not go to defensiveness right away.

I am guilty of angry outbursts... I think the last one was in July. I just have no more room for lying though, and that's what it entailed. It IS hard for me to understand this different person than me. The fact that I have to make it a safe place for him to be truthful is something that I have to work hard to understand and just simply accommodate. I'm not like that.

 

I can say that we are good at all the other things on that list, xxoo. Other than my occasional angry outbursts, we treat each other very respectfully. If we had a "Sunday night" talk (which would be fine with me) that would be too much for him. He wants a "let's not ever speak of it again" situation.

 

I want true happiness for him, for his own sake. I don't understand why we just can't go there to see. Isn't living unauthentically the bigger tragedy here? I would rather be apart for his happiness then be together because he can't bear to look at things.

Edited November 1, 2015 by katielee
added a phrase

[turnera]

Because if I say ANYTHING, he interprets it as that he's not doing something right.

I'd be rich if I had a dollar for every spouse who has said this about their husband. It's a man thing. Admiration is SO IMPORTANT to men - their lives are all about achievements, in sports, work, money, 'size'... - and women often get put in the unenviable position of having to 'remind' the men about chores, broken fixtures, cars not working, on and on, so that the man starts seeing or feeling that she looks at him as one big failure.

 

One thing women don't do enough, I think, is compliment their man. I think a woman would get embarrassed to be complimented all the time, but a man...he just soaks it up.

 

I watch a lot of HGTV, and I just cringe every time there's a couple and the wife is making fun of her husband for not doing all the honey-dos, or not keeping the house up, or fixing something WRONG. These women actually make FUN of their husbands, and I watch the husbands' expressions, and I just wanna cry for them, they feel so bad and shamed.

 

The fact that I have to make it a safe place for him to be truthful is something that I have to work hard to understand and just simply accommodate. I'm not like that.

Well, let me ask you something. Are you not here to find out how to get HIM to be what YOU need? You're expecting HIM to change to accommodate what makes YOU happy. Why should you not have to change to accommodate HIM?

 

Sounds a little selfish to me.

 

Isn't living unauthentically the bigger tragedy here? I would rather be apart for his happiness then be together because he can't bear to look at things.

Again, this is YOUR feelings and YOUR viewpoint. He may value getting regular sex as the most important thing in his life. Many men do. He may be willing to sit there in shame and endure your raging at him, just to have someone cook meals for him. That was my dad.

 

It just doesn't sound like you're working all that hard to figure out what makes HIM happy. I mean, I know this is your thread, but I'm trying to show you - something that took me a couple decades to see - that if you don't first invest effort into making sure you know what makes him want to be with you (and what keeps him from wanting to please you), then you can be upset or angry or gripe all you want, but you can only control yourself. You can't make him do what you want. But you CAN adjust what YOU do so that pleasing you (in honesty or whatever ways that make you happy) makes him happy. In other words, there has to be a payoff for him. What's his payoff?

Edited November 1, 2015 by turnera

[katielee]

Because tunera, we have been doing it HIS way for a long long time- not talking about anything. I dont think I'm being selfish AT ALL. Here I am, doing it his way, and by the way he gets compliments all the time, not moving so he can Keep his job, staying with him after two affairs. Yeah, don't really know what else I can do but NEVER speak of it again.

[turnera]

Sensitive much?

 

Look. I'm on your side. But as you said, you've been doing it 'his' way for years now and nothing is better. If you think butting heads with him will get you 'your' way, go right ahead. But as every therapist in the country will tell you, you can't change the other person. You CAN change what YOU do so that they WANT to change.

 

As far as staying with him after affairs, did you initiate changes? Do you have access to his phones so you can monitor? Did you insist on therapy for as long as you needed it? Did you change your day-to-day interactions? Did he get any consequences? If not, why not cheat again? You showed that you were willing to stay no matter what he did.

[katielee]

Sensitive much?

 

Look. I'm on your side. But as you said, you've been doing it 'his' way for years now and nothing is better. If you think butting heads with him will get you 'your' way, go right ahead. But as every therapist in the country will tell you, you can't change the other person. You CAN change what YOU do so that they WANT to change.

 

As far as staying with him after affairs, did you initiate changes? Do you have access to his phones so you can monitor? Did you insist on therapy for as long as you needed it? Did you change your day-to-day interactions? Did he get any consequences? If not, why not cheat again? You showed that you were willing to stay no matter what he did.

 

yes, I'm sensitive. Gladly so.

changing what I do would be talking about it more, not less. ha!

I have access to everything yes. He is going to IC - or at least I THINK he is - I am not insistent that he do that anymore. That is up to him.

Did we change or day to day interactions? No.

Did he get any consequences? A pissed off wife who is struggling to trust, I guess. I mean, what other consequences would one get?

I'm not willing to stay if he cheats again. He knows this.

We did talk last night - I asked for more emotional intimacy in the marriage. He said, "you mean you'd like to make out more?" I said no, more talking about our feelings. We very calmly talked about how going through this is a very lonely process at times. And that we both missed the not having to worry about what the other one was up to... very calm talk.

[turnera]

Typical steps in a reconciliation following cheating would include passwords to their electronics, a GPS installed on their phone or in their car so you know where they are and check that they're where they say they are, writing the OW a No Contact letter that YOU approve and send yourself, him telling your parents what he did to you and asking their forgiveness, spending 10-15 hours together every week doing non-chore/kids/work/electronics things so you build the affection and love back up.

 

Depending on the damage of the affair (length, audacity, etc.), one would also ask for the cheater to take a polygraph so you can ask some important questions (like how many times, or if they are still in contact), as well as possibly getting a postnup agreement stating that if caught again the cheater agrees to walk away from the marriage with ZERO funds.

 

Good job on the talk. It sounded safe and honest; more of that.

 

And if you can set up a once-a-week talk about affair/relationship stuff, it frees up the rest of the week to focus on loving on each other - which will fix everything else.

[katielee]

Typical steps in a reconciliation following cheating would include passwords to their electronics, a GPS installed on their phone or in their car so you know where they are and check that they're where they say they are, writing the OW a No Contact letter that YOU approve and send yourself, him telling your parents what he did to you and asking their forgiveness, spending 10-15 hours together every week doing non-chore/kids/work/electronics things so you build the affection and love back up.

 

Depending on the damage of the affair (length, audacity, etc.), one would also ask for the cheater to take a polygraph so you can ask some important questions (like how many times, or if they are still in contact), as well as possibly getting a postnup agreement stating that if caught again the cheater agrees to walk away from the marriage with ZERO funds.

 

Good job on the talk. It sounded safe and honest; more of that.

 

And if you can set up a once-a-week talk about affair/relationship stuff, it frees up the rest of the week to focus on loving on each other - which will fix everything else.

 

we did all of that in your first paragraph except tell his parents. He doesn't want his family to know anything. I had already told mine everything.

 

your information is from marriagebuilders, I think. My caveat with that is that it puts some of the blame of the affair on the emotional needs not being met in the marriage. I just don't buy that so therefore don't trust all that advice.

I don't believe loving each other fixes everything else. We love each other. We spend time with each other, uninterrupted. There are still trust and grief issues. Maybe there will always be and I just need to accept it.

[turnera]

Does he trust you?

[katielee]

Does he trust you?

 

about the same as I trust him - we hope for the best but it's not 100%. We won't be surprised by anything. We miss the "have your back" feeling we had the first 23 years of marriage.

[understand50]

katielee,

 

First, you have to realize that your betrayal, just adds to the "haze" of life. You husband can be going through all sorts of thing professorially that are hard and taking a toll. The fact that you cheated just adds to it. As for him not talking to you, he may never be as open as he once was. You hurt him and pain make one stand back and not really be open.

 

Now I am not saying that you are not doing everything you should be, or can be doing, to reconcile, and working on your marriage and relationship. This maybe a time when there really is nothing you can do, except be there. If you had never "slipped", or he had never found out, (and you were sure of it) what would your response be now? Would you try and find if there was anything you could do to make it better? He has given you the gift of a second chance, and wants you in his life.

 

My thought is, do not let the betrayal rule your life. Work on and find what is needed now. All of us go through things in life that our spouse can not share, nor would we want them too as we try and shield them. My advise, if you wont it, is to take him at his word. Try and help him meet what ever challenges that he is facing and give him love and support until it passes. It will. Remember, Men will hold it inside, and that is not a bad thing. Respect his ways and support him.

 

I wish you and yours luck.

[ladydesigner]

katielee,

 

First, you have to realize that your betrayal, just adds to the "haze" of life. You husband can be going through all sorts of thing professorially that are hard and taking a toll. The fact that you cheated just adds to it. As for him not talking to you, he may never be as open as he once was. You hurt him and pain make one stand back and not really be open.

 

Now I am not saying that you are not doing everything you should be, or can be doing, to reconcile, and working on your marriage and relationship. This maybe a time when there really is nothing you can do, except be there. If you had never "slipped", or he had never found out, (and you were sure of it) what would your response be now? Would you try and find if there was anything you could do to make it better? He has given you the gift of a second chance, and wants you in his life.

 

My thought is, do not let the betrayal rule your life. Work on and find what is needed now. All of us go through things in life that our spouse can not share, nor would we want them too as we try and shield them. My advise, if you wont it, is to take him at his word. Try and help him meet what ever challenges that he is facing and give him love and support until it passes. It will. Remember, Men will hold it inside, and that is not a bad thing. Respect his ways and support him.

 

I wish you and yours luck.

 

You bring up a really good point understand50, one that I feel I am at, and that is not being willing to be as open as I once was. While I am too am a MH and I understand how this just exacerbates the situation, I can relate to the bolded above.

 

Katielee has your WH always been emotionally closed off? I know my WH has been and I have been expecting more from him because I feel that is what we need to make our M better, but I'm just not sure he is capable of it.

[katielee]

I don't know. I'm guessing not. We never talked about difficult things. I was too afraid to.

That's odd that hurt makes some of us not want to share. It has made me want to share almost everything, and to let go of the outcome. If he's guarded because of what I did I understand this. I wish he'd say, "I don't really trust you so I'm not going to be as honest or open with my feelings, please decide if you can live with that."

I am "being there." He came home to a nice dinner (very late and I didn't say one word) and we spent the last two hours discussing bids for the lake home bathroom. he poured over every detail. I would have made the decision in 2 minutes but... We did it his way...

He gave me the gift of staying after I betrayed him. Yes, he did.

what kind Of conversation would we be having here had he not strayed? No different I suppose. This is crap. Keeping bending over backwards katielee.

[ShatteredLady]

Communication has been the hardest thing for me. I come from a family that talks ALL the time. TV is a background noise. You know it's a REALLY good show if my family actually watches it. All old family & friends reminisce about sitting around our kitchen tables over the years. We have always talked about everything & nothing, in detail, many times...

 

As a teen I did something really naughty with a group of friends. They all thought I was lucky! They had privileges taken away, they were grounded etc. they thought I had no punishment!! Just 3 hours at the kitchen table talking about my choices & how disappointing I was! My punishment was way worse than theirs. They just couldn't see it!

 

I NEED to talk. I NEED honesty no matter how painful. Perception is the most complicated thing we have to deal with in life. It's a million times worse after the secrets & lies of infidelity. I don't know how you get someone to open-up & express the truth of their feelings & perception. All I know is it's so important. Particularly so when a M is in trouble but ALL the time really.

 

We can't sit in our own little worlds, following the 'rules', hanging on our own perception when we could be so wrong about what the other person is truly feeling & needing.

[JohnAdams]

I don't know. I'm guessing not. We never talked about difficult things. I was too afraid to.

That's odd that hurt makes some of us not want to share. It has made me want to share almost everything, and to let go of the outcome. If he's guarded because of what I did I understand this. I wish he'd say, "I don't really trust you so I'm not going to be as honest or open with my feelings, please decide if you can live with that."

I am "being there." He came home to a nice dinner (very late and I didn't say one word) and we spent the last two hours discussing bids for the lake home bathroom. he poured over every detail. I would have made the decision in 2 minutes but... We did it his way...

He gave me the gift of staying after I betrayed him. Yes, he did.

what kind Of conversation would we be having here had he not strayed? No different I suppose. This is crap. Keeping bending over backwards katielee.

 

Katielee, perhaps being in a similar situation, I somewhat relate to your husband. I am not saying he is right or justified, just trying to understand. I do know that he had two revenge affairs and you had one affair. I probably missed it, but how long did your affair last? How did he find out? Did he ever reach a point of feeling safe in the marriage? Is this why he had his revenge affairs? Does he not want to discuss it because he is still distraught over your affair but the discussion goes directly to his? Are you both to a point of knowing you are both at fault and looking for ways to resolve your problems? Are you willing to quit pointing a finger at him and trying to determine how you as couple can resolve these issues? Infidelity leaves more questions than answers. Perhaps step one is helping him get over your affair.

[turnera]

This is crap. Keeping bending over backwards katielee.

And....here comes your selfishness back out again.

 

I'm not saying you don't deserve to have a loving fulfilling marriage.

 

I'm saying your (high) view of what you deserve just may be what is keeping you from getting it.

[merrmeade]

You bring up a really good point understand50, one that I feel I am at, and that is not being willing to be as open as I once was. While I am too am a MH and I understand how this just exacerbates the situation, I can relate to the bolded above.

 

Katielee has your WH always been emotionally closed off? I know my WH has been and I have been expecting more from him because I feel that is what we need to make our M better, but I'm just not sure he is capable of it.

This (in bold) is also my question.

 

P.S. WHat's a "MH"?

[merrmeade]

Communication has been the hardest thing for me. I come from a family that talks ALL the time. TV is a background noise. You know it's a REALLY good show if my family actually watches it. All old family & friends reminisce about sitting around our kitchen tables over the years. We have always talked about everything & nothing, in detail, many times...

We can't sit in our own little worlds, following the 'rules', hanging on our own perception when we could be so wrong about what the other person is truly feeling & needing.

Good one, SL! Also my background. Everything gets talked about all the time. Same relationship I had with my children.

 

However, I do accept now that this personality difference between my H and myself is just that - personality. And what I see/feel from him is that he FEELS he is trying to work with that difference and respect it - just as much as I am. That's the first step imho. Don't know if we'll get to another step but I couldn't take it without this live-and-let-live starter.

 

But somehow, I can't imagine katielee hasn't considered this.

[nightmare01]

A "MH" is an abbreviation for "Mad Hatter" - not sure how that term developed, but it's intended to refer to a couple where both have had affairs. Most of the time it seems that one person has a revenge affair (RA) in response to their partners affair.

 

IMO having a RA as a response to your partners affair is lending credence to the notion that one person in the relationship somehow made their partner cheat by their actions. Basically it sort of validates "marriage problems" or "you were never there for me" excuses as a reason to cheat. This is malarkey in my view; but that's not important.

 

Regarding trust after there has been an affair.. this is tough to do regardless of whether this is a MH situation. Trust has been broken. The marriage and the betrayed partner has been violated. That permanently changes the whole dynamic of the relationship.

 

Of course a BS looses trust for their WS. IMO a BS would be a fool to invest that level of trust after being betrayed, especially in the case of a LTA.

 

The thing is though, that we all change everyday. Small things change us in small ways. Big things change us in big ways. None of us are the same person we were when we got married. So an affair is a BIG thing, so it should be expected that it will change the BS and the marriage in a big way.

 

Just as a BS has to come to accept that the affair happened and move on - the WS has to accept that their relationship with their BS has changed and it will never be the same, and they to have to move on. The relationship is different now, and both partners have 2 courses they can take, they can learn to live with those changes, or they can leave the relationship.

[merrmeade]

A "MH" is an abbreviation for "Mad Hatter" - not sure how that term developed, but it's intended to refer to a couple where both have had affairs. Most of the time it seems that one person has a revenge affair (RA) in response to their partners affair.

 

IMO having a RA as a response to your partners affair is lending credence to the notion that one person in the relationship somehow made their partner cheat by their actions. Basically it sort of validates "marriage problems" or "you were never there for me" excuses as a reason to cheat. This is malarkey in my view; but that's not important.

 

Regarding trust after there has been an affair.. this is tough to do regardless of whether this is a MH situation. Trust has been broken. The marriage and the betrayed partner has been violated. That permanently changes the whole dynamic of the relationship.

 

Of course a BS looses trust for their WS. IMO a BS would be a fool to invest that level of trust after being betrayed, especially in the case of a LTA.

 

The thing is though, that we all change everyday. Small things change us in small ways. Big things change us in big ways. None of us are the same person we were when we got married. So an affair is a BIG thing, so it should be expected that it will change the BS and the marriage in a big way.

 

Just as a BS has to come to accept that the affair happened and move on - the WS has to accept that their relationship with their BS has changed and it will never be the same, and they to have to move on. The relationship is different now, and both partners have 2 courses they can take, they can learn to live with those changes, or they can leave the relationship.

Thank you and agree with the explanation about the trust issues. We deal with that in different ways but it's always there. Guess that's what I'm doing when I give all these convoluted explanations. It's a kind of hedging based on sullied trust.

[xxoo]

I don't know. I'm guessing not. We never talked about difficult things. I was too afraid to.

That's odd that hurt makes some of us not want to share. It has made me want to share almost everything, and to let go of the outcome. If he's guarded because of what I did I understand this. I wish he'd say, "I don't really trust you so I'm not going to be as honest or open with my feelings, please decide if you can live with that."

I am "being there." He came home to a nice dinner (very late and I didn't say one word) and we spent the last two hours discussing bids for the lake home bathroom. he poured over every detail. I would have made the decision in 2 minutes but... We did it his way...

He gave me the gift of staying after I betrayed him. Yes, he did.

what kind Of conversation would we be having here had he not strayed? No different I suppose. This is crap. Keeping bending over backwards katielee.

 

If he had not strayed, what sort of conversations would you want to be having?

 

If neither of you had strayed, what sorts of conversations would you want to be having? Have you ever gotten you BASE needs met, before or after affair? Are your base needs (before and after affair) reasonable?

[katielee]

I'm truly sorry you guys. Thank you for posting.. I had to leave this thread for a while.. it was upsetting.

Has he always been emotionally closed off? Probably, yes. We have never really talked about intimate things pre-affairs. So, I am expecting something from him that he has never given and that's not fair of me. But, as xxoo implies, it's something I want. It's probably something I went looking for.

And for both our sakes I need to make peace with what he can give or leave.

 

merrmeade - ha, his family talk a lot but they don't go to tough issues. My family doesn't except the women overanalyze.

[ladydesigner]

I'm truly sorry you guys. Thank you for posting.. I had to leave this thread for a while.. it was upsetting.

Has he always been emotionally closed off? Probably, yes. We have never really talked about intimate things pre-affairs. So, I am expecting something from him that he has never given and that's not fair of me. But, as xxoo implies, it's something I want. It's probably something I went looking for.

And for both our sakes I need to make peace with what he can give or leave.

 

merrmeade - ha, his family talk a lot but they don't go to tough issues. My family doesn't except the women overanalyze.

 

(((katielee))) just sending you hugs today. I have been craving emotional connection from my WH probably our whole damn M, but I looked past it for so long that I thought that was all he was capable of until I discovered his cheating which made me feel ten times worse with the whole not being able to connect emotionally. It is what led to my own revenge A. I thought there was something unloveable about me and when OM approached me I had no coping skills and I ended up doing the same thing my WH did.

 

Now with my WH's latest LTA I just don't understand him at all. He seemed to be able to connect emotionally with MOW, but maybe he didn't with her either, that I am not sure of.

 

I get this need katielee it is what I crave too. Just curious did you have an emotionally unavailable father?

[katielee]

(((katielee)))

 

I get this need katielee it is what I crave too. Just curious did you have an emotionally unavailable father?

 

I had a very emotionally AVAILABLE father, until he left my mom for his OW.. My Dad was the nurturer in our household and then I saw him once between ages 14-18. My Mom moved us 3k miles away. Not that he tried very hard to see us.

[katielee]

Katielee, perhaps being in a similar situation, I somewhat relate to your husband. I am not saying he is right or justified, just trying to understand. I do know that he had two revenge affairs and you had one affair. I probably missed it, but how long did your affair last? How did he find out? Did he ever reach a point of feeling safe in the marriage? Is this why he had his revenge affairs? Does he not want to discuss it because he is still distraught over your affair but the discussion goes directly to his? Are you both to a point of knowing you are both at fault and looking for ways to resolve your problems? Are you willing to quit pointing a finger at him and trying to determine how you as couple can resolve these issues? Infidelity leaves more questions than answers. Perhaps step one is helping him get over your affair.

 

-my affair was probably 6 weeks? thereabouts.

-he found out because I confessed.

-I doubt he reached a point of feeling safe. he had them quickly after mine. I think he felt very unsafe.

-I don't know why he had his revenge affairs. He doesn't call them that. He said he was emasculated and needed to know if someone wanted him, anger over what I did, justified because he felt he didn't need to keep the vow anymore...

-I'm sure he's still distraught over my affair. I would love to talk about my affair as well... but he doesn't want to be reminded of it.

-we are definitely both at fault. I'm not sure what our problems are.

-I would like to be more emotionally connected. I seriously cannot remember the last time we fought about any affair. It was maybe last spring. The last two fights were about lying. I don't think there was any mention of affair, except that I can't handle any more lying.

-infidelity certainly does leave more questions than answers. I'm not sure how I haven't been helping him get over my affair. He has told me I do a really good job with transparency, honesty, being a good person.

[casey.lives]

maybe.....maybe.... you talk too much