Digging up old records, new questions.

[merrmeade]

It's been 3-1/2 years since d-day, lots of trickle truth and confessions of 5 incidences of infidelity over several decades. I spent the last year in IC which helped a lot. I've talked, thought and written about my WH, what he did and why, his lack of capacity to talk about any of it, his efforts to change slowly. What I know about everything was revealed through trickle-truth, drop by excruciating drop. At one point, I felt I understood the why and the who. I understood who he was and how he looked at his life. I think he's changing little by little and is committed to me in a way he was not before.

 

Now all that said, he was gone for several hours today and for some reason I decided to go through one chunk of information I hadn't carefully investigated following d-Day—the bank records. So I did and corroborated the amount of time he'd spent in her city, remodeling her house. However, I also found two transactions with Xandria, a sex toy website that we've ordered things from before. The two transactions are an order for $22 and then a $17 return a few weeks later. This took place 4 years ago, 2 years before d-day, during a time that I was out of the country. There's no way it was something he ordered for me.

 

So I've found out something that means ... what? It could mean he ordered it then returned it himself. Or she rejected it. Or something else. The thing is I'm not sure how much I care. Not as much as I might have the first year after d-Day. I care more that I didn't know, that he didn't tell me, but even that, I can sort of understand in the grand scheme of things—how he might not have 'remembered' this particular piece of information since there was so much other stuff. I've learned enough to know and fill in the blanks about the nature of their relationship and feel like I've gotten the most important things figured out that I needed to know. I am not surprised or disturbed that he did it. It fits.

 

The thing is, I've never uncovered something that I didn't talk over with him. But on the other hand, what will we gain by going over this? I mean, I live with a LOT of information about him that he doesn't know that I think or know about him. It's a detail that corroborates what I already know about him. In a way, it's like the other knowledge, insight, understanding that we have about each other but don't always say out loud. Telling him this won't change how I think of him and what he did.

 

But telling him would also further his own self-destructive shame without also providing hope of insight or understanding that we could grow from together. He would see it as information that just makes him look more like a sick s.o.b.. It's hard enough to get him to acknowledge what he did. Dealing with this stupid aspect of it might set back all discussion.

 

I do still have meltdowns every few months from some trigger or thought. I tell him what's going on, and he goes silent during initial confrontation. He actually said once, "I have to sit here and take this." Obviously he needs IC and it's unbelievably discouraging, but afterward he works harder at quality time, affection, affirmation, etc. I accepted regretfully a long time ago this may not change soon. I hope it may change later but make no assumptions.

 

So, yes, I'm avoiding something difficult. What do I lose by letting it go? Is there a good reason to confront him with this discovery since I already feel I understand it? What would I gain from making him admit to this? What will I lose if I don't?

Edited October 31, 2015 by merrmeade

[fellini]

Like I said in a post elsewhere. There comes a time when you have to ask the elephant who has been sitting in your living space to leave.

 

If you are now conducting biopsis on his toe nails, then perhaps the IC isn't working for you.

 

What you get by kindly telling the elephant he is no longer welcome and to shut the door forever on his way out is your freedom to move forward in peace.

[Lion Heart]

It's been 3-1/2 years since D Day.

So, yes, I'm avoiding something difficult. What do I lose by letting it go? Is there a good reason to confront him with this discovery since I already feel I understand it? What would I gain from making him admit to this? What will I lose if I don't?

 

My dear Mermaid

 

It's an agonizing thing to go through. It's like having Swiss cheese when we expected Camembert. Oh I hope you see my analogy? Too many holes in the story / picture. Hoping if we find or discover by accident more information about the infidelities, the nature, the actions or anything then we'll be able to "work together" to fill those holes as a couple. Mend the M following a post-infidelity text book repair manual.

 

I'm not gonna toss the "pick up and leave him / kick his butt to the curb" scenario to you. That's not the topic of your thread.

 

I say highlight the purchases and lay the bills in front of WH.

I've done this with phone bills / internet downloads and got a truck load of lies.

I guess if you're prepared to be hit with lies, minimising behaviours (or maybe your WH is beyond that? ) then go for it.

 

I guess you've got to ask yourself how you're gonna feel if YOU don't ask or don't present him with evidence.

 

There's a lot of suggestion that "now you know HE HAD AN AFFAIR, you don't NEED ANY details, just move on and work on R". But isn't that simply rug - sweeping? I think so.

 

I'm only 10.5 months out from D Day Number 1 and had multiple D Days in the past 2 months. In some periods I want to get every tiny detail and other times I feel like LIFE IS PASSING me by by spending WAY too much time and effort on this. Sure sometimes I'm full throttle for D and others I'm IDK?

 

So I think go with your gut. It's your R too. Not all emphasis should be on WH. ALOT needs to be on your healing and recovery. In fact the suggestion is for the Wayward Spouse to act for the Healing of the Betrayed Spouse. I think our WHs are too NPD to be concerned about OUR healing more than the further risks of further exposure. They hate thinking THEY are the "bad guy".

 

Very tired now. It's Halloween here in Oz (well every 10th or 20th house! Lol) and we took a heap of children trick or treating.

 

Love you Merrmeade

Lion Heart.

[Ladyjane14]

I think you've already got a good handle on this. If it's not constructive, not adding in a positive way to your process, what's the point of bringing it up. Do you need to know whether he ****ed someone?..... he did.

 

The problem ends up being how to get your brain to process events in a linear way, so things that happened in the past, feel like they happened in the past. It's pretty much PTSD. You're cooking along and all the sudden, bam!... in emotional terms, events feel as real and present as they did when they happened.

 

I got alot of good information from a book called The Body Keeps Score by Bessel van der Kolk. It's difficult to put some of his techniques to work though, things like neurofeedback and EMDR, but others like yoga and mindfulness training are more accessible.

[Mrs. John Adams]

Merrmeade,

 

Sometimes your strength and wisdom amaze me. I believe you know the answer to this new revelation and it is the right one for you.

 

I think in all infidelity....we can never "know" that we "know" everything....so we base our decisions on the things we know and accept that we cannot change the past and we have to let it go. Not in a way that says it never happened...but in a way that says it no longer has control.

 

I have tried to be as honest with John as i can be about my affair....but i will be the first to admit that all these years later i sometimes have forgotten a detail or i remember it in a wrong sequence. I don't do this intentionally and with malice.

 

I do believe it is possible to not remember some of the things we did or said...and it may very well be that your husband won't recall this transaction....

 

I have told John...at this point...if there are things about your affair that you have not shared...(and i don't believe there are)...I don't want to know.

 

It would not change our choice to stay together...we cannot undo it....and all it would do is cause fresh hurt....and to be honest....I don't want to hurt anymore.

 

I do believe there comes a time...to put things aside and i think this is one of those times for you. The only reason i can see to present this situation to your husband would be to open new conversation....and the only person who knows if that is good or if it will just cause more friction....is you.

 

You always weigh everything so carefully....just as you are this situation.....and i know you will face this new obstacle with wisdom and strength that you have grown in abundantly these past years. I trust that you will do the "right" thing....the thing that is best for you and your husband.

 

I always leave your threads more enlightened...and i want to thank you for that.

 

This week marked the 32 year mark of my infidelity. It was ever present on our minds...however...we slayed the dragon. We both knew it was in the room...but we faced it hand in hand and we had a beautiful day.

 

You face your dragons Merrmeade....and if the two of you cannot slay him today....have hope that someday....you will win. God bless you my friend.

[merrmeade]

I appreciate ALL of these thoughtful replies, see wisdom in each of them and hope there are more. It always amazes me that no matter how well a situation is examined on LS, there are always as many ways to handle it as there are posters. Even if the conclusions agree—yes or no, do or don't, stay or go—there's always something new and valuable in trying to understand the complete perspective gathered from another individual's unique set of experiences.

 

Just wanted to add something that surprised me when it happened. A little thing maybe but after laboring over the initial post, I went to bed late, late (also early, early). Gathering the covers to settle into our gigantic bed, I instead found myself instead squirming the distance to join the warmth and smells of my old partner's dreaming backside. The nips and pulls of lingering resentment were released and my hyper-vigilance, at rest. I just know that, sinking into his dent in the bed, I felt relief at the simple pleasure of him.

[Mrs. John Adams]

I do the same thing every night my john is home. There is a peace that settles over me and i can fall asleep.

 

you love your husband Merrmeade....and that is the bottom line for you.

[merrmeade]

It's an agonizing thing to go through. ... I guess if you're prepared to be hit with lies, minimising behaviours (or maybe your WH is beyond that? ) then go for it.

 

I guess you've got to ask yourself how you're gonna feel if YOU don't ask or don't present him with evidence.

 

There's a lot of suggestion that "now you know HE HAD AN AFFAIR, you don't NEED ANY details, just move on and work on R". But isn't that simply rug - sweeping? I think so.

Yes, it's agonizing to put us both through it and, yes, his first instinct will be to cover his exposure with something—lies, excuses, reverse attack—and what more have I learned? I already know the worst he did and buying sex toys (AND returning them) wasn't worse than that. So if I'm not feeling further traumatized by it and don't need information or confirmation of something, it could be taken as a WS example of rubbing his face in it.

 

And so what if it's rug-sweeping? I get my rugs cleaned regularly.

 

Thing is: Maybe I don't have to decide now...

[Lion Heart]

Yes, it's agonizing to put us both through it and, yes, his first instinct will be to cover his exposure with something—lies, excuses, reverse attack—and what more have I learned? I already know the worst he did and buying sex toys (AND returning them) wasn't worse than that. So if I'm not feeling further traumatized by it and don't need information or confirmation of something, it could be taken as a WS example of rubbing his face in it.

 

And so what if it's rug-sweeping? I get my rugs cleaned regularly.

 

Thing is: Maybe I don't have to decide now...

 

Lol. I'm not sure if YOU seeking information and details about your H infidelities IS rug - sweeping. Maybe. IDK. I lean towards not. Because you haven't rug swept the FACTS. The facts remain that H was repetitively unfaithful. You and I were repetitively betrayed. It's a da**ed lot to process! I think rug - sweeping is NOT facing anything about anything. I think you've faced everything about ALL of it.

 

When you wrote that you don't have to decide (face) this now...

yes that's correct. Ofcourse you don't. TBH that comment of yours reminded me of the period of time that I shared with K my psychologist friend. I shared this with her 21 years ago. It was reflecting upon the devastating 12 month period that happened shortly before I met her. Maybe it was a longer period in hindsight. But my Nana had come to be near me interstate for the birth of my first child. Her first great grand child. The day before the baby was due my Nana felt unwell (yes my tears are rolling now) so I stayed home all day with her. She asked me all sorts of very deep and meaningful questions. She was never a "deep" person. Questions like what I thought happened to us after we died. Deep and more. About my childhood. She told me lots about hers. That night she was taken to hospital and by the next morning she was led into surgery with no hope for surviving the surgery. They'd found widespread cancer. My whole 39 relatives descended upon Canberra where I was living. My baby was 3 weeks overdue. Nana survived the surgery and still very ill, stayed nearby in hospital until the baby was born. I had a protracted 38 hour labour (during which my back was broken that wasn't discovered until 12 years later after carrying twins and my last baby).

6 months later Nana died. I'd moved back home to nurse her. My M broke up 3 months after that. I started life as a single mother - a shocking frightful thing for me. My father died soon after. I started work, leaving my DD with paid carers which I hated doing, to buy a home for us.

When I met K she asked how I handled that period. I said I cried ALOT! I ALSO SAID THAT I still pretended my father was alive. I couldn't handle MORE grief! I said I thought it wasn't very mentality healthy for me to "pretend". SHE COMPLETELY DISAGREED. K said it was VERY mentally healthy for me to do JUST that.

 

I know that story was more for a PM to you Mermaid but I wanted others to know also. It is important for us to do WHATEVER WE NEED TO DO to keep ourselves as mentally healthy as possible during extenuating periods of stress, loss, grief, difficulty.

 

As much as others may "think" that kicking certain people to the curb is "THE answer" to the end of those feelings. And I agree, in certain situations IT IS! It ABSOLUTELY was for my previous M. Our DD has THANKED me for leaving him! I knew without a shadow of a doubt that it WAS. I was able to go through the cycle of grief and loss. I did do much better BECAUSE I LEFT in all facets of mine and my DDs lives.

 

I most definitely think it's also a no brainer to leave cheating bfs and gfs. And WHEN YOU KNOW YOU must.

 

When you don't know? Or if you see real hope? When you SEE the work your WS IS willing to do? The pain and suffering they ARE prepared to go through? (as they should imo)

Then the path is not bleedingly obvious. Children and grandchildren together. Decades together. Enjoyment still shared. Even with the pain. Let's face it, the pains going to be there anyway. IDK.

 

So as usual my message was short and sweet! Lol. Not. But I hope you get what I'm trying to say?

 

Do whatever you need to do to function as well or as happily as possible as you navigate through what was once a scorched earth. Yours is not the scorched earth it once was Mermaid. And that alone is SO MUCH to be grateful for. There is comfort and a better, more honest, love and hope for you. Sure beats despair and confusion!

 

X Lion Heart.

[Mrs. John Adams]

Merrmeade...John read your post and we discussed it over our lovely lunch....and we both agreed and we want you to know...

 

John stayed with me...because he loved me...and even though i broke his heart...even though i was vile....even though he feared that i could break his heart again...he still loved me.

 

Many would NEVER have stayed 30 years...many would have quit...and that may have been the right answer for them....but it wasn't for John.

 

Lion Heart is a remarkable woman... my admiration is beyond measure...because she made the right decision for her...and she has faith in herself to accomplish what she needs to do.

 

I am not one to tell people what is the right thing to do...because i honestly don't know. But what i do know...is that i think whatever you do...whatever you decide...is right.

 

Your husband is a very lucky man...I hope someday he can prove to you that he knows that.

[dichotomy]

It's been 3-1/2 years since d-day, lots of trickle truth and confessions of 5 incidences of infidelity over several decades. I spent the last year in IC which helped a lot. I've talked, thought and written about my WH, what he did and why, his lack of capacity to talk about any of it, his efforts to change slowly. What I know about everything was revealed through trickle-truth, drop by excruciating drop. At one point, I felt I understood the why and the who. I understood who he was and how he looked at his life. I think he's changing little by little and is committed to me in a way he was not before.

 

Now all that said, he was gone for several hours today and for some reason I decided to go through one chunk of information I hadn't carefully investigated following d-Day—the bank records. So I did and corroborated the amount of time he'd spent in her city, remodeling her house. However, I also found two transactions with Xandria, a sex toy website that we've ordered things from before. The two transactions are an order for $22 and then a $17 return a few weeks later. This took place 4 years ago, 2 years before d-day, during a time that I was out of the country. There's no way it was something he ordered for me.

 

So I've found out something that means ... what? It could mean he ordered it then returned it himself. Or she rejected it. Or something else. The thing is I'm not sure how much I care. Not as much as I might have the first year after d-Day. I care more that I didn't know, that he didn't tell me, but even that, I can sort of understand in the grand scheme of things—how he might not have 'remembered' this particular piece of information since there was so much other stuff. I've learned enough to know and fill in the blanks about the nature of their relationship and feel like I've gotten the most important things figured out that I needed to know. I am not surprised or disturbed that he did it. It fits.

 

The thing is, I've never uncovered something that I didn't talk over with him. But on the other hand, what will we gain by going over this? I mean, I live with a LOT of information about him that he doesn't know that I think or know about him. It's a detail that corroborates what I already know about him. In a way, it's like the other knowledge, insight, understanding that we have about each other but don't always say out loud. Telling him this won't change how I think of him and what he did.

 

But telling him would also further his own self-destructive shame without also providing hope of insight or understanding that we could grow from together. He would see it as information that just makes him look more like a sick s.o.b.. It's hard enough to get him to acknowledge what he did. Dealing with this stupid aspect of it might set back all discussion.

 

I do still have meltdowns every few months from some trigger or thought. I tell him what's going on, and he goes silent during initial confrontation. He actually said once, "I have to sit here and take this." Obviously he needs IC and it's unbelievably discouraging, but afterward he works harder at quality time, affection, affirmation, etc. I accepted regretfully a long time ago this may not change soon. I hope it may change later but make no assumptions.

 

So, yes, I'm avoiding something difficult. What do I lose by letting it go? Is there a good reason to confront him with this discovery since I already feel I understand it? What would I gain from making him admit to this? What will I lose if I don't?

 

 

I could have written some of this (bold). I had a stack of information from my investigations that I mostly held back - or just bits to catch her in a lie or denial. At some point I confessed I had a **** load of information and for her to stop lying. I also realized much she simply did not recall, or she actually believed happened differently or did not happen. I realized I had a better picture of who she was, what she did - then she did. Occasionally a new piece of information came up. I even found a few old emails about me - stupid stuff she said about me (not bad) that NEVER happened. She was has a strange grip on history and reality. Unfortunately or fortunately - I have a mind like a steel trap.

 

After a few years, there was little reason to bring up any of the stuff I knew or remind of her emails, calls, events, what ever. She was not the same person anymore, neither was I.

 

You ever find an old box of letters or things you wrote years and years ago and - ever think "did I write or do that? man I had forgot or don't know that was me".

 

I dont think there is any point discussing some old piece of information... unless there was a very specific reason to do so.

Edited October 31, 2015 by dichotomy

[Ladyjane14]

Lol. I'm not sure if YOU seeking information and details about your H infidelities IS rug - sweeping. Maybe. IDK. I lean towards not. Because you haven't rug swept the FACTS. The facts remain that H was repetitively unfaithful. You and I were repetitively betrayed. It's a da**ed lot to process! I think rug - sweeping is NOT facing anything about anything. I think you've faced everything about ALL of it.

 

When you wrote that you don't have to decide (face) this now...

yes that's correct. Ofcourse you don't. TBH that comment of yours reminded me of the period of time that I shared with K my psychologist friend. I shared this with her 21 years ago. It was reflecting upon the devastating 12 month period that happened shortly before I met her. Maybe it was a longer period in hindsight. But my Nana had come to be near me interstate for the birth of my first child. Her first great grand child. The day before the baby was due my Nana felt unwell (yes my tears are rolling now) so I stayed home all day with her. She asked me all sorts of very deep and meaningful questions. She was never a "deep" person. Questions like what I thought happened to us after we died. Deep and more. About my childhood. She told me lots about hers. That night she was taken to hospital and by the next morning she was led into surgery with no hope for surviving the surgery. They'd found widespread cancer. My whole 39 relatives descended upon Canberra where I was living. My baby was 3 weeks overdue. Nana survived the surgery and still very ill, stayed nearby in hospital until the baby was born. I had a protracted 38 hour labour (during which my back was broken that wasn't discovered until 12 years later after carrying twins and my last baby).

6 months later Nana died. I'd moved back home to nurse her. My M broke up 3 months after that. I started life as a single mother - a shocking frightful thing for me. My father died soon after. I started work, leaving my DD with paid carers which I hated doing, to buy a home for us.

When I met K she asked how I handled that period. I said I cried ALOT! I ALSO SAID THAT I still pretended my father was alive. I couldn't handle MORE grief! I said I thought it wasn't very mentality healthy for me to "pretend". SHE COMPLETELY DISAGREED. K said it was VERY mentally healthy for me to do JUST that.

 

I know that story was more for a PM to you Mermaid but I wanted others to know also. It is important for us to do WHATEVER WE NEED TO DO to keep ourselves as mentally healthy as possible during extenuating periods of stress, loss, grief, difficulty.

 

As much as others may "think" that kicking certain people to the curb is "THE answer" to the end of those feelings. And I agree, in certain situations IT IS! It ABSOLUTELY was for my previous M. Our DD has THANKED me for leaving him! I knew without a shadow of a doubt that it WAS. I was able to go through the cycle of grief and loss. I did do much better BECAUSE I LEFT in all facets of mine and my DDs lives.

 

I most definitely think it's also a no brainer to leave cheating bfs and gfs. And WHEN YOU KNOW YOU must.

 

When you don't know? Or if you see real hope? When you SEE the work your WS IS willing to do? The pain and suffering they ARE prepared to go through? (as they should imo)

Then the path is not bleedingly obvious. Children and grandchildren together. Decades together. Enjoyment still shared. Even with the pain. Let's face it, the pains going to be there anyway. IDK.

 

So as usual my message was short and sweet! Lol. Not. But I hope you get what I'm trying to say?

 

Do whatever you need to do to function as well or as happily as possible as you navigate through what was once a scorched earth. Yours is not the scorched earth it once was Mermaid. And that alone is SO MUCH to be grateful for. There is comfort and a better, more honest, love and hope for you. Sure beats despair and confusion!

 

X Lion Heart.

 

Very uplifting post. Thank you for sharing it.

[merrmeade]

Well, I agree with all of this and realize there's more to our problems than what I know about the affair(s). I think dichotomy probably gets this the best and maybe LH, but LH's husband just seems clueless because of his NPD. The tendency to distort reality and BELIEVE the changes, the changed memories, the completely stilted perception of the world to be always in terms of self—that's moving a little (or a lot) closer to the sociopathic end of the NPD spectrum than that. I mean my H really doesn't see it (whatever it is) and brings a dose of paranoia to every interaction. So, no, Mrs. JA, there's no way my H is like your John. And these anomalies will not change soon or maybe even at all. He doesn't see them. But with the right people around him—me, my wonderful children (sorry, they may be his, too, I don't give him credit for how great they are)—he'll stay within a reasonable containment.

 

Without IC he won't be able to talk much more about his troubled past even though it crushed me.

[Mrs. John Adams]

Well, I agree with all of this and realize there's more to our problems than what I know about the affair(s). I think dichotomy probably gets this the best and maybe LH, but LH's husband just seems clueless because of his NPD. The tendency to distort reality and BELIEVE the changes, the changed memories, the completely stilted perception of the world to be always in terms of self—that's moving a little (or a lot) closer to the sociopathic end of the NPD spectrum than that. I mean my H really doesn't see it (whatever it is) and brings a dose of paranoia to every interaction. So, no, Mrs. JA, there's no way my H is like your John. And these anomalies will not change soon or maybe even at all. He doesn't see them. But with the right people around him—me, my wonderful children (sorry, they may be his, too, I don't give him credit for how great they are)—he'll stay within a reasonable containment.

 

Without IC he won't be able to talk much more about his troubled past even though it crushed me.

 

you misunderstood...I don't think your husband is like my john...I meant my john is like you

[merrmeade]

I think you've already got a good handle on this. If it's not constructive, not adding in a positive way to your process, what's the point of bringing it up. Do you need to know whether he ****ed someone?..... he did.

 

The problem ends up being how to get your brain to process events in a linear way, so things that happened in the past, feel like they happened in the past. It's pretty much PTSD. You're cooking along and all the sudden, bam!... in emotional terms, events feel as real and present as they did when they happened.

 

I got alot of good information from a book called The Body Keeps Score by Bessel van der Kolk. It's difficult to put some of his techniques to work though, things like neurofeedback and EMDR, but others like yoga and mindfulness training are more accessible.

So I looked at some of this literature. Have you done EMDR? I took a survey while in therapy and didn't show much need.

 

What is mindfulness training?

[merrmeade]

you misunderstood...I don't think your husband is like my john...I meant my john is like you

yes i did - this is better.

[Mrs. John Adams]

good...you had me worried...

 

You love your husband....just like my john loves me

 

and regardless of anything else...that's the bottom line

[merrmeade]

And these anomalies will not change soon or maybe even at all. He doesn't see them. But with the right people around him—me, my wonderful children (sorry, they may be his, too, I don't give him credit for how great they are)—he'll stay within a reasonable containment.

Uhhh, that didn't come out right. I couldn't possibly be so powerful or great or he wouldn't have strayed before obviously. I mean - and did not explain - that he is very much a creature of influence. He goes with what's around him and this is what we're doing—being an extended family. And my kids are just the best surprise ever. They don't know all he did and learned of the A with their aunt in their 30s. Their values were already set and have clearly made them stable, caring, committed to their families. No NPD anywhere. He'll learn from them.

[Lion Heart]

So as time goes on and should more things comes to your attention A related, how do you think you may react?

 

I understand you are 3 1/2 years post D Day Number 1?

Do you measure time against progress?

Do you call TT information D Days?

Are there still triggers?

 

I ask these questions because I can see that the "text book" 6 months - 2 years approximations given post D Day for assimilation of BSs new reality may be completely out of kilter for BSs who gain much more information (some times far worse information than the initial D Day, still traumatic, yet somehow not as surprising as D Day Number 1). Eg in the case of BSs of serial cheaters.

 

My last D Day was (possibly) 6 days ago. I had a few tears roll down my face, barely enough to smudge my makeup! I got out of the car and said "ok, let's eat". We had a "date night" just the 2 of us for dinner. It's not a reaction I've had before. This honest disclosure of WHs then possibly my very mild reaction allowed WH to talk very openly VERY openly about his present feelings about what he's done and how powerless he feels to get our M back on track. He said "I just feel like I've dug myself into the deepest whole by what I've done. I would NEVER do any of that sh** again. I had no idea the impact it would have on you and our family. I feel SO bad. I can't believe I even did it all. But I did and I understand there are consequences. .. now."

 

Do you feel the need to measure the progress of your R alot?

 

Lion Heart.

[Lois_Griffin]

Yes, it's agonizing to put us both through it and, yes, his first instinct will be to cover his exposure with something—lies, excuses, reverse attack—and what more have I learned? I already know the worst he did and buying sex toys (AND returning them) wasn't worse than that. So if I'm not feeling further traumatized by it and don't need information or confirmation of something, it could be taken as a WS example of rubbing his face in it.

 

And so what if it's rug-sweeping? I get my rugs cleaned regularly.

 

Thing is: Maybe I don't have to decide now...

I just see it as yet another bite of the sh*it sandwich you agreed to force-feed yourself for life when you reconciled with a lying cheater whose first inclination - even 3+ years after D-Day - is STILL to lie to you when you bring up his past.

 

As you said, at this point you prefer to rug-sweep and quite frankly, his attitude SUCKS when you do bring anything up. He lies, denies and attacks. Quite honestly, someone like this isn't worthy of reconciliation. And when you have to do yoga or go to EMDR therapy just to be able to better cope with the sh*it sandwich you're expected to eat for life, then you have to stop and ask yourself why you you're willing to settle for that lousy diet.

 

JNHO.

[merrmeade]

I just see it as yet another bite of the sh*it sandwich you agreed to force-feed yourself for life when you reconciled with a lying cheater whose first inclination - even 3+ years after D-Day - is STILL to lie to you when you bring up his past.

 

As you said, at this point you prefer to rug-sweep and quite frankly, his attitude SUCKS when you do bring anything up. He lies, denies and attacks. Quite honestly, someone like this isn't worthy of reconciliation. And when you have to do yoga or go to EMDR therapy just to be able to better cope with the sh*it sandwich you're expected to eat for life, then you have to stop and ask yourself why you you're willing to settle for that lousy diet.

 

JNHO.

It's also interesting to me that I can read this kind of reaction now and be TOTALLY okay with it. I understand why you're doing this. You're outraged on my behalf and I thank you for it.

 

Hell, part of my recovery has involved grieving my own perceived loss of choice and life. I was so f-king pissed at him for taking away MY years, my choice to leave him. He's an A-1 A-hole for doing that, a coward, a self-aggrandizing succubus. You have no idea!

 

So realizing this, why do I stay? I've answered this before and will again. The only thing I've never said 'out loud' here is my age. Well, it's time: I'm 67. Sixty-seven years of age. We have children, grandchildren and have changed, lost friends and social networks over the years. On an individual basis, I had love and approval all my young life and felt cherished by parents who never forgot, never made me question my importance or worthiness to be loved. My H had a father who worked for love and expected that from his children, punished them when they did not work correctly. His mother was into herself more than anyone else and trained her older daughters to care for their siblings, including H. His sister was his mother and an inadequate substitute.

 

Oh, good grief. I'm stopping this. Otherwise, I'd have another, what, 63 years to explain. nvm (but will leave that paragraph). My point is I haven't built up a network here. My biological family is only my brother who's far away. I don't mind, actually revel in living near, with or for my kids and their families. The two of us are inextricably part of that picture.

 

I don't WANT to start dating. I don't WANT to develop new relationships with men or even a man. I don't WANT to get old alone.

 

My husband WANTS to have a more fulfilling relationship with me. He WANTS to have sex a lot. With me. He WANTS to have a better marriage together. With me. We have huge differences in what all that means but that he wants it is enough.

Edited November 1, 2015 by merrmeade

[katielee]

 

But telling him would also further his own self-destructive shame without also providing hope of insight or understanding that we could grow from together. He would see it as information that just makes him look more like a sick s.o.b.. It's hard enough to get him to acknowledge what he did. Dealing with this stupid aspect of it might set back all discussion.

 

 

I guess I agree with what everyone else said - you know what's best for you and you have a clear head on your shoulders. But the paragraph I quoted is the thought that concerns me. You are keeping something from him so he won't have shame feelings. That is co-dependent behavior. That shame is his to own. And after 3.5 years, he should be able to talk about this without shame. If not, he hasn't done the work yet. You say you can hardly get him to talk about it anyway. Stop protecting him. He needs to cowboy up and talk about the nitty gritty crap, if YOU need him to. He needs to start seeing what he did 3.5 years ago as the acts of a person he is not today. And speak of it a such, without shame. Also, by not bringing this up to protect his feelings, you could be taking on part of his work and taking away an opportunity for him to choose differently.

This is all IMO, take what you need and leave the rest. If there is no purpose for bringing this up, as others have said, it's just the details, then by all means, you are right in not bringing it up. I was just concerned about your need to protect his feelings.

[fellini]

I get this. I'm in my late 50s but our daughter is 11 years old. I have already decided that I could stay or leave, it doesn't matter. But I am not going to leave just because she screwed up.

 

And for what it is worth, I will never buy the sh-t sandwich metaphor. This is why I speak of the elephant in the room.

 

What needs to leave is this massive invisible-to-the-naked-eye elephant who continues to occupy our thoughts and feelings. There comes a moment when the realization that family is all that matters in this world means asking that elephant to leave. It is, properly understood, a true act of forgiveness.

 

The irony is, if I am going to leave my WW for any reason, I can see now that it will be for something significantly LESS important than her LTR with a co-worker. It will be because I WANT TO LEAVE. And for that reason, it is not likely to happen. I have no desire to start a new relationship, look for another - but this does not mean I stay because I have "given up". I stay because I am with the person I want to be with. I have the family that I want and cherish. Sure I have some bad days as a result of this, but I recognize that these are thoughts and feelings I control, not her. Ill deal with them as I see fit.

 

If I look at some marriages that have not experienced infidelity, by the way, I see people who anyone might say are eating that sh-t sandwich. But having learned what being in a marriage that has suffered, truly suffered from infidelity, I am more cautious about drawing too many conclusions about couples, love, endurance, crises, as an outsider.

 

There are innumerable ways in which people find themselves living in pain and enduring it. Marriage has its share of these, whether it be betrayal from infidelity or any other issue. Humans have an enormous capacity to endure whatever crap life throws at them. Some people might ask "Why do you put up with it?", but I think that question is really a way of saying "I don't know if I could put up with what you do", and we know from stories here that the only response is, "No you don't, but you might be surprised if you were in my shoes".

 

 

 

 

It's also interesting to me that I can read this kind of reaction now and be TOTALLY okay with it. I understand why you're doing this. You're outraged on my behalf and I thank you for it.

 

Hell, part of my recovery has involved grieving my own perceived loss of choice and life. I was so f-king pissed at him for taking away MY years, my choice to leave him. He's an A-1 A-hole for doing that, a coward, a self-aggrandizing succubus. You have no idea!

 

So realizing this, why do I stay? I've answered this before and will again. The only thing I've never said 'out loud' here is my age. Well, it's time: I'm 67. Sixty-seven years of age. He's 68. Our children are 39, 36 and 34. We have 3 grandchildren 6, 5 months and 1 month. We spent 40 years of our lives going back and forth to another country. We lived apart off and on for months and years at a time, myself believing that we were just as married as together. On an individual basis, I had love and approval all my young life and felt cherished by parents who never forgot, never made me question my importance or worthiness to be loved. My H had a father who worked for love and expected that from his children, punished them when they did not work correctly. His mother was into herself more than anyone else and trained her older daughters to care for their siblings, including H. His sister was his mother and an inadequate substitute.

 

Oh, good grief. I'm stopping this. Otherwise, I'd have another, what, 63 years to explain. nvm (but will leave that paragraph). My point is I haven't built up a network here. My biological family is only my brother who's far away. I don't mind, actually revel in living near, with or for my kids and their families. The two of us are inextricably part of that picture.

 

I don't WANT to start dating. I don't WANT to develop new relationships with men or even a man. I don't WANT to get old alone.

 

My husband WANTS to have a more fulfilling relationship with me. He WANTS to have sex a lot. With me. He WANTS to have a better marriage together. With me. We have huge differences in what all that means but that he wants it is enough.

[katielee]

regarding your most recent reply, merrmeade - that makes perfect sense to me. I'm kind of in the same boat - with someone emotionally closed off but he wants to be married, make a life together, etc, and we have all those things too - together 30 years, kids, friends, etc... Last night my friend who is about 10 years younger than me posted on facebook how lonely she was - 8 years divorced, kids at dads for halloween, and would she be alone forever. Scared the **** out of me.

Maybe this is one of those things where we should be grateful for what we do have...

[Ladyjane14]

So I looked at some of this literature. Have you done EMDR? I took a survey while in therapy and didn't show much need.

 

What is mindfulness training?

 

I haven't really tried EMDR in any professional way; not aware of anyone in my area that offers it. I did find a computer application online that allows the eye to follow along, so sometimes when I'm having a really bad association, I practice the technique on my own.

 

Mindfulness is a Buddhist principle, whereby one endeavors to truly experience the present moment. It's learned primarily through meditation and breathing exercises. Lots of good books are available.. Right now, I'm reading The Mindful Path to Self-Compassion: Freeing Yourself from Destructive Thoughts and Emotions by Germer. I haven't gotten far enough into it to review it for you yet.