Digging up old records, new questions.

[merrmeade]

:Was this a lie on his part? As you know, I'm not down with liars and so I can see having a confrontation on that subject.

no you're right. This IS the reason. I never corroborated how much time he spent at her house working. It panned out and explains his terse explanation: "It was propinquity only." That "only" was a real clencher.

 

Another reason is I'm going through old photos. Triggers and questions. Lots of them.

Edited November 4, 2015 by merrmeade

[Lion Heart]

omg Mrs. JA but I do love your new name for LH - unintended I presume:

 

Loin Heart

 

Hilariously (in)appropriate for an Infidelity forum.

 

I AM TAKING THAT NAME AND RUNNING WITH IT! LOL.

 

Bl**dy anti-depressants have made WH sex drive diminish. Not healthy for a Loin Heart like me!

 

Cute Mrs JA. Great to laugh reading the infidelity forum!

 

Your Loin Heart xoxoxo and a few bunnies toboot.

[merrmeade]

Sorry, S2B, for overreacting. Your questions were logical and valid, if forward and prying. But it's a forum; I don't have the right to control what you ask. And besides I was far more rude.

 

The reason I don't want to go there is that I don't think it will add that much. But it's okay... It's good for me to think about what he brings, where he cares, and how he's changed. And he has changed. He's gentle already but now gentler. He tries to please me in the ways he knows and can—sex, cleanup, cooking, sex— accepts my self-indulgences and faults, even the big ones that make life difficult for everyone. Most of all he tries. He tries gently and better.

[Lion Heart]

no you're right. This IS the reason. I never corroborated how much time he spent at her house working. It panned out and explains his terse explanation: "It was propinquity only." That "only" was a real clencher.

 

Another reason is I'm going through old photos. Triggers and questions. Lots of them.

 

So maybe because you were going through old photographs, knowing how you felt then. Then BAM the realization of what WH was possibly thinking or feeling because of his affair activities means that you triggered.

 

These triggers about THIS specific time and place and everything else, the unhappy forced CHANGE of memory because you "know" now. This pain of having now to alter your perspective of a time you may have thought as innocent or precious (and it still was or is for your mind anyway) is tarnished. Blackened or at least darkened by WH As.

 

Is that what brought a fresh resurgence of seeking behaviours?

 

Are these along the lines of questioning you have the need to be addressed?

 

If so I get that completely.

 

BSs reflect on times that we once remembered fondly, and desperately still want to, but have to re-colour those memories with the A brush. How do we process that? Is this part of the puzzle?

 

Loin Chops

[Mrs. John Adams]

Now LionHeart...are you trying to make me feel bad????? I am so sorry my ipad changed your name......please accept my apology...

 

although....loin chops aint too bad:laugh:

 

sorry i messed up merrmeade

 

You know i have thought about this all night....John is in

California...and i stayed up really late...and i have read and reread....

 

All of us stay together for many reasons.

 

Love may be the foundation....

commitment...because we just don't want to give up

fear...of being alone....of starting over

 

so I understand that you stay with your husband...flawed as he is....for many reasons and i apologize if i was putting words in your mouth.....

[understand50]

Now LionHeart...are you trying to make me feel bad????? I am so sorry my ipad changed your name......please accept my apology...

 

although....loin chops aint too bad:laugh:

 

sorry i messed up merrmeade

 

You know i have thought about this all night....John is in

California...and i stayed up really late...and i have read and reread....

 

All of us stay together for many reasons.

 

Love may be the foundation....

commitment...because we just don't want to give up

fear...of being alone....of starting over

 

so I understand that you stay with your husband...flawed as he is....for many reasons and i apologize if i was putting words in your mouth.....

 

Abigail,

 

The other reason, and I think this is large for many, is that when you marry early, or get together early, your life is that person. I really have no adult past, as it began with my wife. Having kids will also tend to be a point to stay together. I would bet, that this is one reason, and a large one for yourself, John, Merrmeade. Lion Hart's history is different, but she has a past with her spouse. It is her life, and change is hard. Why you stay, why you keep working will change over time, and staying "for the kids" right after D-day, may change to "I still love them" later. There must be something.

 

BTW, just to think, the other side, the one who cheated. They also must have a reason to stay, and work on the marriage. The relationship can not be come one long term of "hell" to make up from the transgression. I really believe, that after all is said and all is talked out, while it will never be forgotten, the affair should not be used later to beat up, or as a "get out of jail" card. If I am to leave my wife, it will be for something she has done lately.

 

Our flaws, are something we learn to live with, or in the the end become the deal breaker for both.

 

My 2 cents.

 

PS. As the "king" of mangled writing, I loved "Loin Hart".

[Mrs. John Adams]

Abigail,

 

The other reason, and I think this is large for many, is that when you marry early, or get together early, your life is that person. I really have no adult past, as it began with my wife. Having kids will also tend to be a point to stay together. I would bet, that this is one reason, and a large one for yourself, John, Merrmeade. Lion Hart's history is different, but she has a past with her spouse. It is her life, and change is hard. Why you stay, why you keep working will change over time, and staying "for the kids" right after D-day, may change to "I still love them" later. There must be something.

 

BTW, just to think, the other side, the one who cheated. They also must have a reason to stay, and work on the marriage. The relationship can not be come one long term of "hell" to make up from the transgression. I really believe, that after all is said and all is talked out, while it will never be forgotten, the affair should not be used later to beat up, or as a "get out of jail" card. If I am to leave my wife, it will be for something she has done lately.

 

Our flaws, are something we learn to live with, or in the the end become the deal breaker for both.

 

My 2 cents.

 

PS. As the "king" of mangled writing, I loved "Loin Hart".

 

I agree with this....

John and I were 17 and 19....we had 2 small children and we were poor. So even though what i did devastated him...he also felt helpless and frightened. Since he still loved me....he chose to keep us together.

 

Believe it or not....I stayed for the exact same reasons. I told John for many years...if you want me to leave...I will...and i will ask for nothing. I think i did that as a way to show him that i accepted my guilt and responsibility for what i had done.

 

And I agree with you...at this point...if we were to divorce....it would not be because of my affair...and i would certainly take half. We have 43 years of life together....and we both have done our share.

 

In a way....an affair later in life is probably so much more difficult....you have shared so many years together...raised your family....and just when you thought it would be more simple...your life is turned upside down.....the exact opposite of what you would expect. The challenges of dealing with everything and knowing the one thing needed for healing is time...and you know you don't have as much time ahead as you have behind you....

[dichotomy]

I've never heard a reasonable analogy regarding equivalent pain of being betrayed. I've heard: loosing a limb, the death of a child, the death of a parent, and many more. In response to those I've also heard from those BS who suffered those things, who said the pain they experienced did not compare to being betrayed for the exact reason you felt the cancer analogy was invalid. Your limb did not choose to come off your body. Your child did not choose to die. Your parent did not choose to die. And so forth.

 

.

 

 

Loss is going to be differently experienced by different people. Their are now videos of people with cancer, about to have surgery, dancing in the operating room with their doctor and nurse. Amazing, but does not lesson those who shake with fear and sadness on the operating table.

 

I am not sure I would exactly compare cancer or body part loss to betrayal . But I blamed God for the cancer, and my wife(s) for their affairs.Lots of “how could you do this to me? I did nothing to deserve this”. Second the loss of body parts/body functioning can be likened to the loss of intimacy/trust/ after an affair. That is even after the pain of the loss is over – your still facing a life without something, it won’t come back, its gone. Thats, not to say you can't get to a "new normal" after a loss, but you always know something was lost of your old self.

 

 

Just my own personal view. Others will differ.

[Lion Heart]

Abigail,

 

The other reason, and I think this is large for many, is that when you marry early, or get together early, your life is that person. I really have no adult past, as it began with my wife. Having kids will also tend to be a point to stay together. I would bet, that this is one reason, and a large one for yourself, John, Merrmeade. Lion Hart's history is different, but she has a past with her spouse. It is her life, and change is hard. Why you stay, why you keep working will change over time, and staying "for the kids" right after D-day, may change to "I still love them" later. There must be something.

 

BTW, just to think, the other side, the one who cheated. They also must have a reason to stay, and work on the marriage. The relationship can not be come one long term of "hell" to make up from the transgression. I really believe, that after all is said and all is talked out, while it will never be forgotten, the affair should not be used later to beat up, or as a "get out of jail" card. If I am to leave my wife, it will be for something she has done lately.

 

Our flaws, are something we learn to live with, or in the the end become the deal breaker for both.

 

My 2 cents.

 

PS. As the "king" of mangled writing, I loved "Loin Hart".

 

Understand 50, I'm learning alot from your posts. Thankyou.

Before I begin you can call me anything you like except late for dinner lol.

 

Reconciliation is a very difficult experience for me. D Day was a bombshell, it blew me completely out of the water (as I'm sure MOST WSs felt that day) and it didn't matter how much I LOVED him, I was done that day! I'm gonna say being drunk for a month helped me get through that first horrible part of R. I wouldn't want others to do that but it's all I COULD do at the time.

 

And it's BECAUSE I NEVER considered for a moment that staying with a cheater was EVER a good idea. "Reconciliation" with a man you already know first hand IS a cheater was nothing short of insanity IMHO. I still question my reasoning and battle with myself.

 

It wasn't about the "change" that would've been hard for me personally. No way. I was all for getting the f out of there completely. I'd got the next place organized and would have moved the next day (as I did to my previous WH). BUT then as I was looking at WH and trying to hear him, looking at my children and trying to consider them, seeing the landscape as it APPEARED to me. As my RATIONAL mind started to move in to reason with my EMOTIONAL mind, I considered R. I know I will never completely R with WH. I will always know what he's capable of. He's always had my love and fidelity and as long as we're together, always will. The never ending financial support (he's been wayward there too) or other parts I have resented giving him since finding out about his affairs, he is not welcome to.

 

Basically I'm propped and prepped for the next D Day so that if that day occurs, the cut and move will be swift and clean. As much as I can prepare for a clean exit (house in my name only, contracts drawn up, Will rewritten etc) I have. Seems cold but it's the very least I could do for my ailing values being compromised so severely by "R". WH REALLY knows the score now. He's had alot to sign over!

 

And no, I'm not "punishing" him. These are my very mild consequences to WH for his affairs. He can like it or lump it.

I've been a doormat, pushover, ar** kissing devoted W previous to my D Days. Look at the thanks I got for that behaviour. A long line of affairs. It's No More Mrs Nice Nut here now. TBH I think WH is full of admiration for my fortitude, seeing the determination and strength he loved me for once upon a time. It's back! Lol. WH certainly thanks me often for giving him this chance and the opportunity to be with us. But the last thing I want is a role reversal of my behaviours (doormat etc) in him. Not likely with NPD anyway. :-)

 

Since the Lion appeared with a vengeance, WH has definitely taken notice.

 

Lion Heart.

[Lion Heart]

Now LionHeart...are you trying to make me feel bad????? I am so sorry my ipad changed your name...

 

1. ...please accept my apology...

 

although...

 

2. .loin chops aint too bad:laugh:

 

sorry i messed up merrmeade

 

You know i have thought about this all night....John is in

California...and i stayed up really late...and i have read and reread....

 

All of us stay together for many reasons.

 

3. Love may be the foundation....

4. commitment...because we just don't want to give up

5. fear...of being alone....of starting over

 

6. so I understand that you stay with your husband...flawed as he is....for many reasons and i apologize if i was putting words in your mouth.....

 

Dear Mermaid and Mrs JA,

 

1. Absolutely no need for an apology. I enjoyed the laugh! And it did "speak" to the situation of my M atm. Though after reading this thread to WH, he laughed too btw, and he relaxed alot learning along the way. He fixed that "situation" today :-).

 

2. Agreed, but lamb cutlets are my favourite.

 

3. I HOPE LOVE IS THE FOUNDATION! Major concerns if that's not the case.

 

4. Correction if you don't mind, RE- commitment from the WS and commitment in a much changed and damaged landscape for the BS.

 

5. For some maybe. I don't fear being alone at all. My concern is getting into a new relationship too soon! I've just about diagnosed myself as a commitment addict as opposed to a commitment phobic personality.

 

6. I think it's healthy to remember we all have flaws, issues of our own, baggage or somewhat or other. Every body.

But after discovering infidelity in our M, AND deciding to R, how do we process the ACTIONS (and thoughts that led our WSs to cheat) in some way that we can live with?

 

It's not like Merrmeade didn't know her H before she found out he was cheating. She did and loved him anyway. This hasn't changed. It's the added ocean of infidelity that's almost drowned her. She's still learning how to swim in that. Random swells come over her. Does she get another life raft for herself or ask WH for a life boat. He can and does quell her anxiety at times. I'm sure she knows not to bank on it though.

 

X

Lion Heart.

[merrmeade]

It's not like Merrmeade didn't know her H before she found out he was cheating. She did and loved him anyway. This hasn't changed. It's the added ocean of infidelity that's almost drowned her. She's still learning how to swim in that. Random swells come over her. Does she get another life raft for herself or ask WH for a life boat. He can and does quell her anxiety at times. I'm sure she knows not to bank on it though. Lion Heart.

Good job, better than I've done.

 

And agree that love must be the foundation.

 

Would add that loss of trust is the biggest deterrent to R because it makes you closed down and guarded.

[fellini]

As an aside. This nonsense of a marriage being better after an affair... I've heard people claim that. The thing is that most of the people that claim a better marriage after an affair were WS. One study I saw showed that 90% of WS felt that way, but a MUCH lower percentage of BS agreed.

 

If in fact affairs made marriages better, then why don't counselors advocate everyone having them? Imagine how great our marriages could be if we all constantly cheated on each other. This POV just seems ludicrous to me.

 

To be fair, I think you race to a conclusion that is not in the saying.

 

Some marriages are better. After the affair.

 

This does not mean that marriages NEEDED an affair to get better. It means that an affair took place, and as horrible as it was, it provided a much needed wake up call for either or both of the spouses.

 

Of course there are other ways to improve a marriage. Let's just take one example of a typical marriage that needs a wake up call, and for which there are few indications that there is a problem, in fact, the reverse, it's not a big deal: Child centered marriages.

 

There are two variants on this theme:

Traditional and Modern, but in the end they amount to the same thing. In the traditional the husband is more or less absent in the upbringing but prides himself in his work and brings in the money necessary to provide the kids with the quality of life they want them to have. Everything goes to the kids.

 

In the modern both parents are involved with kids, mom with ballet and drama classes and Dad with soccer or hockey or whatever. Both dedicate themselves and get their "feel goods" from their giving their all to their kids.

 

Slowly but surely their intimacy and their own relationship sits simmering on the back burner for years and years and years such that they don't even notice it any more.

 

This is a marriage (not a family) in need of a kickstart. Some couples figure that out themselves. But if LS is any indication of the reality, only one of the couples does and starts to think the other has pulled away from them. And this insight just so happens to coincide with bumping into an old friend, or a colleague at work who one day takes the time to say, "you look great today". And off we go.

 

And yes it sucks that as a husband, I tell my wife, you look beautiful in that dress, or your new haircut looks wonderful on you and it bounces off of her from having repeated it a thousand times. Meanwhile some POS at work says something similar and the world stops turning for a moment. "He understands me in ways my husband does not."

 

That some marriages improve after an affair is only to say that the foundation shook, and there was a response. Had one of these couples gone to MC prior to an affair, they might have come to terms with it a different way. But who goes to MC when everything "feels" normal? When everyone tells you what a great family you have, what great kids you have? When living more like roommates seems your lot in life? Or worse, you didn't even notice it happening... These are not BAD MARRIAGES, but that does not mean that they are GOOD marriages either.

 

So it takes infidelity to wake someone up, or if we were to believe Hollywood, either that or the San Andres fault erupting just as the divorce papers are arriving. Either way, the point is, unless you see your marriage in crises, or have been thrust into one, you do nothing.

Edited November 5, 2015 by fellini

[understand50]

Basically I'm propped and prepped for the next D Day so that if that day occurs, the cut and move will be swift and clean. As much as I can prepare for a clean exit (house in my name only, contracts drawn up, Will rewritten etc) I have. Seems cold but it's the very least I could do for my ailing values being compromised so severely by "R". WH REALLY knows the score now. He's had alot to sign over!

 

And no, I'm not "punishing" him. These are my very mild consequences to WH for his affairs. He can like it or lump it.

I've been a doormat, pushover, ar** kissing devoted W previous to my D Days. Look at the thanks I got for that behaviour. A long line of affairs. It's No More Mrs Nice Nut here now. TBH I think WH is full of admiration for my fortitude, seeing the determination and strength he loved me for once upon a time. It's back! Lol. WH certainly thanks me often for giving him this chance and the opportunity to be with us. But the last thing I want is a role reversal of my behaviours (doormat etc) in him. Not likely with NPD anyway. :-)

 

Since the Lion appeared with a vengeance, WH has definitely taken notice.

 

Lion Heart.

 

Lion Heart,

 

You are right in your approach. If Reconciliation is to work, the transgressor must put in the heavy work and stop what they are doing. If they do not, then you are not in reconciliation, but denial. If my then G/F, had continued to "party" down and bed guys, I would have dumped her. If she had continued to over spend, and keep destroying our livelihood, I would have divorced her.

 

The first step in a reconciliation, is for the person making the problem to stop, and not do it again. Them recognizing the pain and suffering, they have inflected can be a ongoing processes. We have examples on LS. The betrayed must set strong boundaries, and keep to them. The fact that you are prepared to, will in the end allow you and your WH a chance for a better marriage.

 

I have learned much from all of you. The ones who are really here to try and understand what is going on and what you should do to try and make it better. Sometimes, it is to walk away, but for those who reconcile, and from both sides of the coin, it is one thing to know that you want to, but HOW do you and yours go about it, that is the puzzle. Both you and fellini are prepared to walk away, as am I. That is also a big part to the whole equation. The other part, in my opinion, is to reach deep and still treat your WS with respect, and acknowledge when they are doing the right things. It will always be a work in progress, but marriage and relationships are that in all cases.

 

What got me here to LS, was that my wife spent our retirement, so that I will have to work until I drop dead. Her past ONS was just a another kick I had dealt with. My forgiveness for that long ago transgression was tested, as everything she had ever done to me came welling up with the discovery of her spending. I had to stop and remember, that we had moved past it, and other things.

 

I am coming to accept having to work, and believe that it may not be such a bad thing. I am blessed, that I have a thinking job and can work as long as someone needs my skills. Why I stay with her, is that I love her, and in the end, being broke with her is better then being broke alone.

 

Maybe after all is said, that is the question. Is life with your spouse, for what ever reason, better then with out? Each of us, both betrayed and wondering, must decide and answer that question.

 

I wish you luck and hope your husband understands what a woman and life, he risks losing.

[Lion Heart]

Thankyou Understand50, I'll PM you by reply (hope that's ok) and want to CC Mermaid in because she's my idol.

Lion purring

[merrmeade]

Thankyou Understand50, I'll PM you by reply (hope that's ok) and want to CC Mermaid in because she's my idol.

Lion purring

Huh? Or rather, yikes. Not necessary to CC. I mean I don't think that was a t/j. It's all relevant - all good. Some threads ramble with a delightful mix of voices - all good. I don't think I want or any of us needs more responsibility than just trying to be clear in what we think, honest in what we say. If I could do that consistently without embarrassing myself, that would feel like progress. But I don't have enough consistency or clarity in my life, marriage or even my head yet and maybe never will - also okay.

 

We're all equal here. Otherwise, we couldn't make mistakes, and we - I - NEED to make mistakes. Just no more idle - er, idol - talk, okay? Purring's good.

[Mrs. John Adams]

Maybe after all is said, that is the question. Is life with your spouse, for what ever reason, better then with out? Each of us, both betrayed and wondering, must decide and answer that question.

 

Understand50...this quote is the true bottom line...for both the ws and the BS.....

 

John did not want to live life without me.....and I realized after my brief affair....that i did not want to live life without him either. I certainly wish i had thought about that a little sooner....

 

and I want to encourage by saying...even though i was not in a place of complete remorse for 30 years...( a whole different subject)..I was remorseful enough for him to take the chance and trust me....and by "settling" for what i was able to give him... we still had a good marriage. Even though He never stopped hoping that i would be able to give him everything he needed.....

 

There are certainly WS who will never come to the place of complete and total remorse...they simply are not capable of doing so(for many reasons)....but that does not mean you have no chance for happiness....

 

Many here have chosen to stay married knowing their spouse will likely never give them total remorse....but they have enough to continue in the marriage....and who knows....maybe someday they will be like me...and finally "get it". Not everyone has as much time as we have had (as i have had)....but in their favor they have many more resources than we had....I truly believe that forums and books are what 'saved' me.....

 

Knowledge...experience....and sharing.....made such a difference in my life....and i thank all of you for helping me to grow.

[BetrayedH]

no you're right. This IS the reason. I never corroborated how much time he spent at her house working. It panned out and explains his terse explanation: "It was propinquity only." That "only" was a real clencher.

 

Another reason is I'm going through old photos. Triggers and questions. Lots of them.

 

I don't have an answer for this but I find myself coming back to the same cost/benefit analysis.

 

So you think he might be lying and you still have questions. So what are the potential advantages from asking? And what are the disadvantages? As well, what are the advantages and disadvantages from not asking?

 

Maybe it would be beneficial to make those four lists.

[Lion Heart]

For me: I am thinking long and hard about the statement that "love is the foundation"...

 

And I'm left to wonder and ask myself 'self, what does love look like?'

 

 

And I know from my past that love looks different for me than it does for others.

 

 

And my guarded conclusion keeps coming back to 'is the love I receive acceptable enough knowing that the love I need or want is different than what I have received?'

 

 

And so... What does love look like for me? I know it's not the same as what others need or want...

 

And it's important to try to understand what a person means when they say "I love you".

 

Love is CERTAINLY different for different people.

 

Mine is more like the verb. Love is a doing word for me.

 

But even WHEN a WS can easily say "I love you" to their BS, WHAT ON EARTH does that mean for them?

 

For mine I'm sure it's a "I never really expected to live life without you" kind of "love". More of a codependence thing I gather. IDK.

 

What I know is words are NOT enough for me at all. There has to be actions that match.

 

LH

[merrmeade]

I don't have an answer for this but I find myself coming back to the same cost/benefit analysis.

 

So you think he might be lying and you still have questions. So what are the potential advantages from asking? And what are the disadvantages? As well, what are the advantages and disadvantages from not asking?

 

Maybe it would be beneficial to make those four lists.

You still think so? In fact, I DON"T still have questions and have corroborated what he told me. THe bank record events coincided with his time line. The only surprise was the sex toys purchase. But the funny thing is that there is no email trail with the details of the order/purchase. Maybe it was done over the phone. Either way, my need to know has been put aside. Think I got it Edited November 7, 2015 by merrmeade

[dichotomy]

And it's important to try to understand what a person means when they say "I love you".

 

Love is CERTAINLY different for different people.

 

Mine is more like the verb. Love is a doing word for me.

 

But even WHEN a WS can easily say "I love you" to their BS, WHAT ON EARTH does that mean for them?

 

For mine I'm sure it's a "I never really expected to live life without you" kind of "love". More of a codependence thing I gather. IDK.

 

What I know is words are NOT enough for me at all. There has to be actions that match.

 

LH

HITS THE NAIL ON HEAD

 

I wish I had this kind of discussion with all my partners when the "I love you's" started flying......example What does loving someone mean, how do you know you love or are loved, what would be unloving to you?

 

Painfully I have learned that people can have vastly different meanings of what it means to love someone.

[BetrayedH]

You still think so? In fact, I DON"T still have questions and have corroborated what he told me. THe bank record events coincided with his time line. The only surprise was the sex toys purchase. But the funny thing is that there is no email trail with the details of the order/purchase. Maybe it was done over the phone. Either way, my need to know has been put aside. Think I got it

 

Well, you thought he was lying. You concurred that it was the reason you were digging. You had triggers and questions. "Lots of them."

 

If you've answered your own questions and feel satiated, then I suppose there's no overwhelming need to discuss with your H.

[merrmeade]

Well, you thought he was lying. You concurred that it was the reason you were digging. You had triggers and questions. "Lots of them."

 

If you've answered your own questions and feel satiated, then I suppose there's no overwhelming need to discuss with your H.

Oh, grrrr, BH, just grrrr. You always do this, you know? You get in there with these off-handed, niggling little TRUE asides that are annoyingly EXACTLY what I was trying to ignore. Harumph and ALL right then.

 

First I said I had triggers and questions—lots of them—and then I said, no, I don't have any questions. I guess I 'lied' like everybody else. Like my WH. I did a little (or big) denial and I wriggled and complained and argued that I have it all figured out.

 

The fact is that, yes, it all still bothers me on occasion. A lot sometimes. But more and more of the time I'm just living and even enjoying being alone with my WH. He is never going to be the perfect mate that I deserved, but he is lovable for many good reasons, not the least of which is the herculean (for him) effort he has made to make up to me what he did. And I actually do not think he's lying any more. He's sort of waiting, hoping, I think, that he won't have to talk about it any more. That's not great, of course because it's lying by omission, but I do not intend to take charge of changing him or being his psychologist (although he is changing in spite of and because of all of it and because I have changed).

 

So the question is back to this: How much more do I need to know? Do I really need to know it? And maybe the fact that it's been a week or so since starting this thread and I'm still saying "maybe," what the hell is the big deal with talking about it? THAT is 'maybe' what's more important. The fact that we can't.

 

Because, yes, it's devastating to bring something up to him and realize that he canNOT put aside his narcissism and feel my need. Correction: He cannot do it unprepared, but he does show the next day and for days after that he realizes (something), even if he can't say it out loud or at all, and his actions are kind, generous, full of guilt maybe, but HIS version of loving.

Edited November 7, 2015 by merrmeade

[katielee]

merrmeade - I wonder if this is like a little test for him - for you to gauge where he is in his healing. I know I sometimes WANT to find something wrong - find a lie so I can point my finger and say "see, you're not healing yet. You're not a safe partner to be with yet. Get to work." because then I maybe have some sort of control (not really but...) it's at least an action on my part.

So, I wonder if the details don't really matter to you - but his owning up to them does.

[BetrayedH]

Oh, grrrr, BH, just grrrr. You always do this, you know? You get in there with these off-handed, niggling little TRUE asides that are annoyingly EXACTLY what I was trying to ignore. Harumph and ALL right then.

 

First I said I had triggers and questions—lots of them—and then I said, no, I don't have any questions. I guess I 'lied' like everybody else. Like my WH. I did a little (or big) denial and I wriggled and complained and argued that I have it all figured out.

 

The fact is that, yes, it all still bothers me on occasion. A lot sometimes. But more and more of the time I'm just living and even enjoying being alone with my WH. He is never going to be the perfect mate that I deserved, but he is lovable for many good reasons, not the least of which is the herculean (for him) effort he has made to make up to me what he did. And I actually do not think he's lying any more. He's sort of waiting, hoping, I think, that he won't have to talk about it any more. That's not great, of course because it's lying by omission, but I do not intend to take charge of changing him or being his psychologist (although he is changing in spite of and because of all of it and because I have changed).

 

So the question is back to this: How much more do I need to know? Do I really need to know it? And maybe the fact that it's been a week or so since starting this thread and I'm still saying "maybe," what the hell is the big deal with talking about it? THAT is 'maybe' what's more important. The fact that we can't.

 

Because, yes, it's devastating to bring something up to him and realize that he canNOT put aside his narcissism and feel my need. Correction: He cannot do it unprepared, but he does show the next day and for days after that he realizes (something), even if he can't say it out loud or at all, and his actions are kind, generous, full of guilt maybe, but HIS version of loving.

 

Oh, I don't mean to be a pain in the ass. Really. I'm really just trying to be a thought partner. Frankly, reconciliation at this amount of time is out of my range of expertise so I really find myself lacking advice (because I have no way of knowing it's the right thing). So in this case I've found myself just asking probing questions as I try to get my head around it. I honestly don't know if it's beneficial to keep probing at this stage.

 

I think you know that it's pretty much a general rule with me that a BS shouldn't reconcile with a WS that's not truly remorseful and embracing transparency, openness, and so forth. That said, you seem to be at ease with your decision to stay and I've really got no judgment about you for that choice. In fact, I kinda "get" that at this stage in life, you don't want to go through all of the upending of your life that would occur with a divorce and that you'd prefer to come to some level of peace with your current situation. So be it. That actually sounds pretty rational to me. I'm also kinda intrigued by the concept that you're trying to accept your husband, who is broken in his own way, because we're kinda all broken to one extent or another. And whether you can fully comprehend it or not, I think you've come to accept that the extent to which your H is broken is not a dealbreaker. You've chosen to accept him as he is, at least that's the impression that I get. And I kinda "get" that, too.

 

So I guess then the question gets down to whether or not it's worth it to rock the boat when something niggles at you. I suppose getting some answers would be a benefit. It's also clear that talking to him about this stuff is a pain in the ass for both of you. Does the benefit outweigh the cost? I wish I knew. It was somewhat enlightening to hear that you're not interested in playing his therapist or whatnot during these conversations. So, improving him or changing him doesn't appear to be your goal. I'm kinda stuck wondering if that's healthy or not. I don't know when you stop trying to build intimacy in a relationship and just accept it for what it is. But I think you're doing well thinking about it. And I trust that you'll eventually figure out what works best for the two of you.

[Mrs. John Adams]

I think you have to ask yourself honestly....why am i still asking? what is it i need know and why? What will more digging accomplish? Will the answers make a difference in my decision? What is my breaking point? When will i be satisfied?

 

When is enough enough?