Digging up old records, new questions.

[merrmeade]

I don't have an answer for this but I find myself coming back to the same cost/benefit analysis.

 

So you think he might be lying and you still have questions. So what are the potential advantages from asking? And what are the disadvantages? As well, what are the advantages and disadvantages from not asking?

 

Maybe it would be beneficial to make those four lists.

You still think so? In fact, I DON"T still have questions and have corroborated what he told me. THe bank record events coincided with his time line. The only surprise was the sex toys purchase. But the funny thing is that there is no email trail with the details of the order/purchase. Maybe it was done over the phone. Either way, my need to know has been put aside. Think I got it Edited November 7, 2015 by merrmeade

[dichotomy]

And it's important to try to understand what a person means when they say "I love you".

 

Love is CERTAINLY different for different people.

 

Mine is more like the verb. Love is a doing word for me.

 

But even WHEN a WS can easily say "I love you" to their BS, WHAT ON EARTH does that mean for them?

 

For mine I'm sure it's a "I never really expected to live life without you" kind of "love". More of a codependence thing I gather. IDK.

 

What I know is words are NOT enough for me at all. There has to be actions that match.

 

LH

HITS THE NAIL ON HEAD

 

I wish I had this kind of discussion with all my partners when the "I love you's" started flying......example What does loving someone mean, how do you know you love or are loved, what would be unloving to you?

 

Painfully I have learned that people can have vastly different meanings of what it means to love someone.

[BetrayedH]

You still think so? In fact, I DON"T still have questions and have corroborated what he told me. THe bank record events coincided with his time line. The only surprise was the sex toys purchase. But the funny thing is that there is no email trail with the details of the order/purchase. Maybe it was done over the phone. Either way, my need to know has been put aside. Think I got it

 

Well, you thought he was lying. You concurred that it was the reason you were digging. You had triggers and questions. "Lots of them."

 

If you've answered your own questions and feel satiated, then I suppose there's no overwhelming need to discuss with your H.

[merrmeade]

Well, you thought he was lying. You concurred that it was the reason you were digging. You had triggers and questions. "Lots of them."

 

If you've answered your own questions and feel satiated, then I suppose there's no overwhelming need to discuss with your H.

Oh, grrrr, BH, just grrrr. You always do this, you know? You get in there with these off-handed, niggling little TRUE asides that are annoyingly EXACTLY what I was trying to ignore. Harumph and ALL right then.

 

First I said I had triggers and questions—lots of them—and then I said, no, I don't have any questions. I guess I 'lied' like everybody else. Like my WH. I did a little (or big) denial and I wriggled and complained and argued that I have it all figured out.

 

The fact is that, yes, it all still bothers me on occasion. A lot sometimes. But more and more of the time I'm just living and even enjoying being alone with my WH. He is never going to be the perfect mate that I deserved, but he is lovable for many good reasons, not the least of which is the herculean (for him) effort he has made to make up to me what he did. And I actually do not think he's lying any more. He's sort of waiting, hoping, I think, that he won't have to talk about it any more. That's not great, of course because it's lying by omission, but I do not intend to take charge of changing him or being his psychologist (although he is changing in spite of and because of all of it and because I have changed).

 

So the question is back to this: How much more do I need to know? Do I really need to know it? And maybe the fact that it's been a week or so since starting this thread and I'm still saying "maybe," what the hell is the big deal with talking about it? THAT is 'maybe' what's more important. The fact that we can't.

 

Because, yes, it's devastating to bring something up to him and realize that he canNOT put aside his narcissism and feel my need. Correction: He cannot do it unprepared, but he does show the next day and for days after that he realizes (something), even if he can't say it out loud or at all, and his actions are kind, generous, full of guilt maybe, but HIS version of loving.

Edited November 7, 2015 by merrmeade

[katielee]

merrmeade - I wonder if this is like a little test for him - for you to gauge where he is in his healing. I know I sometimes WANT to find something wrong - find a lie so I can point my finger and say "see, you're not healing yet. You're not a safe partner to be with yet. Get to work." because then I maybe have some sort of control (not really but...) it's at least an action on my part.

So, I wonder if the details don't really matter to you - but his owning up to them does.

[BetrayedH]

Oh, grrrr, BH, just grrrr. You always do this, you know? You get in there with these off-handed, niggling little TRUE asides that are annoyingly EXACTLY what I was trying to ignore. Harumph and ALL right then.

 

First I said I had triggers and questions—lots of them—and then I said, no, I don't have any questions. I guess I 'lied' like everybody else. Like my WH. I did a little (or big) denial and I wriggled and complained and argued that I have it all figured out.

 

The fact is that, yes, it all still bothers me on occasion. A lot sometimes. But more and more of the time I'm just living and even enjoying being alone with my WH. He is never going to be the perfect mate that I deserved, but he is lovable for many good reasons, not the least of which is the herculean (for him) effort he has made to make up to me what he did. And I actually do not think he's lying any more. He's sort of waiting, hoping, I think, that he won't have to talk about it any more. That's not great, of course because it's lying by omission, but I do not intend to take charge of changing him or being his psychologist (although he is changing in spite of and because of all of it and because I have changed).

 

So the question is back to this: How much more do I need to know? Do I really need to know it? And maybe the fact that it's been a week or so since starting this thread and I'm still saying "maybe," what the hell is the big deal with talking about it? THAT is 'maybe' what's more important. The fact that we can't.

 

Because, yes, it's devastating to bring something up to him and realize that he canNOT put aside his narcissism and feel my need. Correction: He cannot do it unprepared, but he does show the next day and for days after that he realizes (something), even if he can't say it out loud or at all, and his actions are kind, generous, full of guilt maybe, but HIS version of loving.

 

Oh, I don't mean to be a pain in the ass. Really. I'm really just trying to be a thought partner. Frankly, reconciliation at this amount of time is out of my range of expertise so I really find myself lacking advice (because I have no way of knowing it's the right thing). So in this case I've found myself just asking probing questions as I try to get my head around it. I honestly don't know if it's beneficial to keep probing at this stage.

 

I think you know that it's pretty much a general rule with me that a BS shouldn't reconcile with a WS that's not truly remorseful and embracing transparency, openness, and so forth. That said, you seem to be at ease with your decision to stay and I've really got no judgment about you for that choice. In fact, I kinda "get" that at this stage in life, you don't want to go through all of the upending of your life that would occur with a divorce and that you'd prefer to come to some level of peace with your current situation. So be it. That actually sounds pretty rational to me. I'm also kinda intrigued by the concept that you're trying to accept your husband, who is broken in his own way, because we're kinda all broken to one extent or another. And whether you can fully comprehend it or not, I think you've come to accept that the extent to which your H is broken is not a dealbreaker. You've chosen to accept him as he is, at least that's the impression that I get. And I kinda "get" that, too.

 

So I guess then the question gets down to whether or not it's worth it to rock the boat when something niggles at you. I suppose getting some answers would be a benefit. It's also clear that talking to him about this stuff is a pain in the ass for both of you. Does the benefit outweigh the cost? I wish I knew. It was somewhat enlightening to hear that you're not interested in playing his therapist or whatnot during these conversations. So, improving him or changing him doesn't appear to be your goal. I'm kinda stuck wondering if that's healthy or not. I don't know when you stop trying to build intimacy in a relationship and just accept it for what it is. But I think you're doing well thinking about it. And I trust that you'll eventually figure out what works best for the two of you.

[Mrs. John Adams]

I think you have to ask yourself honestly....why am i still asking? what is it i need know and why? What will more digging accomplish? Will the answers make a difference in my decision? What is my breaking point? When will i be satisfied?

 

When is enough enough?

[katielee]

Will the answers make a difference in my decision?

 

I think THIS is the question. And it may not be the detail, but the lying about it... is this the case for you merrmeade?

[merrmeade]

Oh, I don't mean to be a pain in the ass. Really. I'm really just trying to be a thought partner. Frankly, reconciliation at this amount of time is out of my range of expertise so I really find myself lacking advice (because I have no way of knowing it's the right thing). So in this case I've found myself just asking probing questions as I try to get my head around it. I honestly don't know if it's beneficial to keep probing at this stage.

 

I think you know that it's pretty much a general rule with me that a BS shouldn't reconcile with a WS that's not truly remorseful and embracing transparency, openness, and so forth. That said, you seem to be at ease with your decision to stay and I've really got no judgment about you for that choice. In fact, I kinda "get" that at this stage in life, you don't want to go through all of the upending of your life that would occur with a divorce and that you'd prefer to come to some level of peace with your current situation. So be it. That actually sounds pretty rational to me. I'm also kinda intrigued by the concept that you're trying to accept your husband, who is broken in his own way, because we're kinda all broken to one extent or another. And whether you can fully comprehend it or not, I think you've come to accept that the extent to which your H is broken is not a dealbreaker. You've chosen to accept him as he is, at least that's the impression that I get. And I kinda "get" that, too.

 

So I guess then the question gets down to whether or not it's worth it to rock the boat when something niggles at you. I suppose getting some answers would be a benefit. It's also clear that talking to him about this stuff is a pain in the ass for both of you. Does the benefit outweigh the cost? I wish I knew. It was somewhat enlightening to hear that you're not interested in playing his therapist or whatnot during these conversations. So, improving him or changing him doesn't appear to be your goal. I'm kinda stuck wondering if that's healthy or not. I don't know when you stop trying to build intimacy in a relationship and just accept it for what it is. But I think you're doing well thinking about it. And I trust that you'll eventually figure out what works best for the two of you.

Fair enough, BH, and thanks for "letting me off the hook" (iow, your high standards—no sarcasm intended).

 

What's good about such a rational compromise is that we've been through the worst and don't expect the best; therefore, better will be a serendipitous surprise.

 

But I also think that expectations for remorse must be amended when dealing with someone further along the shame spectrum. Extreme shame is not an excuse for lack of remorse, just a reason. It's also a very good reason not to attempt reconciliation. Though disguised as humility, it's still just self-absorption and blocks empathy. People crippled by shame seek self-promotion and fear failure the most. Faced with exposure, they go into emotional stasis or become angry, even violent. Unable to acknowledge, discuss or look at their failure, they may even mistake shame for remorse. The effect on a betrayed spouse in desperate need of empathy is devastating and can only create relationship dysfunction, which is further traumatizing.

 

My point is that shame precludes "true remorse." BSs should figure out if they're dealing with this and decide accordingly.

Edited November 7, 2015 by merrmeade

[Mrs. John Adams]

Shame has nothing to do with remorse. Shame is still self centered. If a ww is still experiencing shame...they are still focused on themselves.

 

Remorse is not about self....in ANY way....remorse is total focus on the betrayed. Even if the betrayed also had an RA as well.

 

Some may never get to this place...

 

So i agree totally with you merrmeade...and i empathize with you....because i know that you know your WS oh so well........probably better than he knows himself.

[Lion Heart]

HITS THE NAIL ON HEAD

 

I wish I had this kind of discussion with all my partners when the "I love you's" started flying......example What does loving someone mean, how do you know you love or are loved, what would be unloving to you?

 

Painfully I have learned that people can have vastly different meanings of what it means to love someone.

 

Gosh Mermaid we take your threads flying far and wife lol.

 

Dichotomy et al, I'm pretty certain for me at least that when the "I love you's" start flying - sorry I have to tell you where my humorous side led me just then (yes I seriously have a serious side and humorous side to this at times). In Australia we have so much slang and a funny saying in our circle is I LOVE YOUSE ALL. Mostly said when making fun of intoxicated people. I thought did my WH just think (feel?) "I love youse all" ??? Being a serial cheater? I believe a serial cheater loves themselves so much more than anyone else. The "love" they have for their family is not love imho. And they use both sides in the worst ways. Always and only for their own gratification.

 

There's another illustration of the dichotomy of post D Day analysis.

 

I skipped over the feelings of love. Ofcourse at the beginning at least there's gushy, passionate stuff. I LOVE THAT feeling as much as the next person but for me, THAT ^^^ feeling can be aroused at any time during a LTR / M and with even more depth and meaning. The depth of MY feelings grow in a LTR. As time goes on and more beautiful memories are made and shared, it's the deepest type of love I could feel towards a partner.

 

There's no way on this earth I could ever have "shared myself" with an OM during this time. Not romantically, even with ZERO and I mean ZERO romance here, not emotionally either, I had my female and a couple of gay men friends and family for that. DEFINITELY never kissing or more.

 

I know OP can do any of that and still SAY "I love you" to their BS. But at best it's compartmentalization (woah is that even a word? lol). At worst cheaters DON'T KNOW WHAT love is, except for themselves IMHO. And the justifications? They're merely lies IMHO. The "I didn't KNOW this would hurt you but you...."

 

Dichotomy IF OP even had the self awareness to describe to us what their "I love you's" meant to them towards us, would their WORDS even matter? I guess it's something. Shows some kind of rationalization. Some kind of thought behind the words. But tbh I think many "I love you's" are just describing the gushy feelings of the first flush. If they knew that ^^^ and could say just that. It wasn't deeply meant and that's fine too. Certainly at the beginning.

 

TBH I've received more "I love you's" since my D Day than ever before in my whole entire life! It's really beautiful. I am SO grateful that OP SAY that to me and most hold this up by their ensuing ACTIONS towards me. Ie checking on me. Visiting etc.

 

Though It's causing a bit of a dilemma in some cases when the OP utters that for the FIRST time in my life and then goes on with "BECAUSE I've known you for so long, I've admired you for so long, IF I HAD M YOU I would never have done this to you....Go* Lion Heart, PHONE ME...... ."

RED FLAG!!! I kinda GET where THAT "I love you" is heading.

It's hard to have the next conversation.

Deflecting.

Reinstating the parameters of the relationship to "friendship zone only" or in some cases NC.

 

I feel I owe it to WH to tell him those conversations but it really hurts his ego (not sure if that's exact). But he thinks I'm endeavouring to HURT him by telling him. So for the past 10y till D Day, I haven't told him. I haven't kept secret relationships.

Though he's certainly had the "talking to" by these OM & THAT hasn't helped either. I've told WH to say "it's our M. I thank you for your concern but it's not your concern." NB: these OM hear things on the grape vine that I have not told them directly.

 

More food for thought.

LH

[Mrs. John Adams]

I tell my husband i love him with my words...and i show him i love him by my actions. If it isn't enough...I can do no more....

 

He either accepts it or he doesn't. If he doesn't then nothing i do or say will make a difference.

 

You can only do what you are capable of....if your ws is doing all they can do to show you they do indeed love you....but it is not enough....then the relationship is at a stalemate.

 

The BS then needs to evaluate....if this is all there is...if this is all they can give....but it is not enough....then the time has come to make a decision....but THIS time...it will be a decision made by the BS...and rightly so.

[katielee]

Shame has nothing to do with remorse. Shame is still self centered. If a ww is still experiencing shame...they are still focused on themselves.

 

Remorse is not about self....in ANY way....remorse is total focus on the betrayed. Even if the betrayed also had an RA as well.

 

Some may never get to this place...

 

So i agree totally with you merrmeade...and i empathize with you....because i know that you know your WS oh so well........probably better than he knows himself.

 

I would say the WS needs to have somewhat of a self focus to fix what was wrong and broken inside them so that they become a safe partner and good person no matter if they remain in the relationship or not. Sure, the WS needs to help the BS, but helping might include making themselves a better person and that involves lots of introspective work.

[Lion Heart]

**** wide not wife

 

Gosh missed the tangent change!

LH

[Lion Heart]

Shame has nothing to do with remorse. Shame is still self centered. If a ww is still experiencing shame...they are still focused on themselves.

 

Remorse is not about self....in ANY way....remorse is total focus on the betrayed. Even if the betrayed also had an RA as well.

 

Some may never get to this place...

 

So i agree totally with you merrmeade...and i empathize with you....because i know that you know your WS oh so well........probably better than he knows himself.

 

Mermaid

 

I keep reading that your WH feels shame and then becomes closed off (moreso maybe? IDK) and it's true remorse you are seeking?

 

Have you seen him in a guilt ridden state ever before? About anything?

 

Maybe the "shame" aspect IS as you describe for your WH anyway, as a precursor to guilt or remorse. IDK.

 

Is it just the shame that's easier for him to go to THAN further guilt and deeper still into remorse?

 

I get that it's just not a conversation that's worth going through at times ie the pain of the conversation for both parties, the emotions that it evokes and the recovery words and actions we need (which is more painful when we don't receive them too).

 

But deciding NOT to have the difficult conversations AGAIN. I SO GET THAT. When we discover new information. Or seek to reconcile our past as we thought it was at the time, to reconcile the MEMORIES we had with the REALITY WE NOW KNOW.

 

This is SO difficult. For me it's grieving. I thought these things but they were just NOT TRUE. This is a gobsmacking event. Not quite the bombshell of D Days BUT DEFINITELY similar. Any new information we find out MUST be dealt with by the BS. MUST.

 

I guess we've got choices:

1. We take the bull (sh) by the horns and confront. (We KNOW where this leads).

2. We work it out through discussing it with OP other than WS on LS, IC or other places (we get alot of answers and more questions)

3. We say MEH well I THOUGHT I knew it all but I'll never know everything.

 

It completely revolves around WHAT WE NEED.

 

IME it really helps ME more to do any of 3 depending on how I'M feeling at the time.

 

No matter what I always seem to get to Number 1 in my list at some point in time.

 

It is the seeking of intimacy we want.

 

The complete closure of the A period THEN true intimacy.

 

Once we work out what true intimacy looks like for us, we are so much closer to getting it. Oh correction! We know if we're getting it or not. We can also lay THAT list on the table and ask, "Can you do this for me? "

 

As mentioned time and time again on LS the BS NEEDS FULL transparency to fully R. Therefore I aasume full transparency is a PRE-REQUISITE for intimacy. I guess full transparency IS what the Adams' have had. Re-built or renewed intimacy. Love and alot of patience! Lol

Hence a truly successful R.

 

Am I getting it M?

LH

[S2B]

Shame has nothing to do with remorse. Shame is still self centered. If a ww is still experiencing shame...they are still focused on themselves.

 

Remorse is not about self....in ANY way....remorse is total focus on the betrayed. Even if the betrayed also had an RA as well.

 

Some may never get to this place...

 

So i agree totally with you merrmeade...and i empathize with you....because i know that you know your WS oh so well........probably better than he knows himself.

 

I totally agree!

 

And I think this whole concept is what makes me want to stand up for Merm when she's not looking like she's standing up for herself.

 

It doesn't "look like" her WH has OFFERED her peace of mind and total transparency and I wish he would! It looks like he's rug swept and wants Merm to forget it ever happened.

 

There's no healing in rug sweeping. There's loads of betraying self and tons of pain.

 

I much prefer intimacy over love. I much prefer actions of love over empty words.

 

My prior question was to try and see what's in this for you Merm? I support you, I just hope you're not asked to swallow your pride and self worth just to stay married if he's not trying to meet YOUR needs too, yah know?

 

Old pictures? Old triggers? I put those all aside after sifting through everything. I tossed out things I didn't want as reminders after I divorced. That's my old life and I don't like reliving it.

 

If my exH (married a long time) had been willing to be honest, transparent and hand me peace of mind on a silver platter I would have stayed. But he wasn't capable of that and I knew I deserved a marriage better than that. I wanted MY self respect so I left him. I've never regretted taking care of me. I'll never betray myself again by thinking I HAD to stay to please others expectations.

 

 

Having someone else betray me was bad enough - betraying myself was even worse.

 

Sometimes you just have to muster the strength and courage to make change happen - whatever that looks like for you I say "go for it".

 

I hope you will be kind to yourself and make decisions that take care of you.

[BetrayedH]

Fair enough, BH, and thanks for "letting me off the hook" (iow, your high standards—no sarcasm intended).

 

What's good about such a rational compromise is that we've been through the worst and don't expect the best; therefore, better will be a serendipitous surprise.

 

But I also think that expectations for remorse must be amended when dealing with someone further along the shame spectrum. Extreme shame is not an excuse for lack of remorse, just a reason. It's also a very good reason not to attempt reconciliation. Though disguised as humility, it's still just self-absorption and blocks empathy. People crippled by shame seek self-promotion and fear failure the most. Faced with exposure, they go into emotional stasis or become angry, even violent. Unable to acknowledge, discuss or look at their failure, they may even mistake shame for remorse. The effect on a betrayed spouse in desperate need of empathy is devastating and can only create relationship dysfunction, which is further traumatizing.

 

My point is that shame precludes "true remorse." BSs should figure out if they're dealing with this and decide accordingly.

 

Ugh. My standards are lower than you think, merrmeade. My current relationship is far from perfect. Are there any that are perfect? I think the vast majority of us "settle" to some extent. You have a pretty clear understanding of your H's shortcomings and have decided that it will suffice. I am truly not judging you for it. I'm only musing on what is your best path forward. I don't know if "enough is enough" or if there is something to gain by continuing to press for honesty, openness and so forth. I respect that your H's shame may preclude true remorse. And I accept that keeping his presence in your life may be more beneficial to you than removing him. In truth, I often wonder if I might have been able to do the same with my former spouse: accept her for the flawed individual that she is. Beyond that, if I had been able to accept her "as-is," would I still have tried to make us into something more? I really don't know.

 

These are perhaps some of the most difficult questions of them all, I think.

 

Dumping my spouse was not a sure-fire path to happiness. Nor would it be for you. You're wise to acknowledge that.

 

Rest assured, my "high standards" say that you and I deserve better. Whether we can get it or not is another (and very pertinent) question.

 

We're still back to wondering whether you can better the situation you're in. I think you probably know that better than I. But I'm here for you as you think about it.

Edited November 8, 2015 by BetrayedH

[Lion Heart]

We're still back to wondering whether you can better the situation you're in. I think you probably know that better than I. But I'm here for you as you think about it.

 

If we read Merrmeades threads very carefully, we can see she is seeing signs of improvement in her WH. I'm quite convinced that MMs ACCEPTANCE of WHs actions, then actively pulling apart elements for herself are what has kept her power. She's certainly wise enough to know that she has no power over the past. But she is definitely striving (fighting?) for power over her future M with this man.

 

MM is committed to WH but not to the extent of completely losing herself. She has been overwhelmed. She's finding herself again in a new landscape. There is a fine (FINE TOO as in beautiful) line to tread between the loss of self as a BS and the continued commitment to a man who loves her as much as he can show NOW.

 

Factor in the place she moved to be near her children and grandchildren and her life (IME only) is near as good as it gets.

 

Sure we can NEVER finish "polishing the stone" of our selves or our M or any sectors of our lives but we are allowed to sit back from time to time and say "I've arrived". Not at perfection but at LIFE. At living now. As fully as we can. Knowing we've done the very best we could for our past then bringing ourSELVES to our moment here and loving ourSELVES as completely as possible.

Mindfulness.

 

Love yourself our dear Mermaid.

SO many people love you so much.

And I've got a tear in my eye for the gratitude I feel towards you.

You give SO much.

Turn some around for the most important person in the world.

You.

 

Lion Heart.

[merrmeade]

As usual, thoughtful, encouraging, provocative responses.

 

I want to make one point. Speaking for myself, I think that a lot of what I say about my WH is venting. This is where I can do it and know I'll be understood. So venting means I don't need to tell you what's good or new about him and the marriage. That doesn't mean I'm a negative person or that the negative outweighs the positive. It just means that this is one way I deal with it.

 

I did a lot of hard work getting the truth and understanding him in order to heal, work he should have done. The fact that he couldn't for whatever reason is still me, excusing him and doing the work for both of us. Saying it gets me out of victim mode, blaming toxic shame, etc. is still just psychological mumbo jumbo to make it okay. In the end, I've chosen not to shake life up any more for my family and committed to take my WH as he is and get old with him.

 

Therefore, the question is this: What does disinterring information from the bank records do for me? I think it's still me, working on my own healing, digging up the details on my own. They corroborate the big picture he'd already painted—i.e., times he was where he said he was. That part is good. They also produced more details about their relationship that I had not known. On the other hand, these details also corroborated the basic tenor of the relationship, which I had known.

 

And so, here's my takeaway:

1 - Consciously or not, I did the bank record digging to help myself heal.

2 - By doing so, once again, I'm doing our work for both of us.

3 - To help him, to help us, I need to tell him — all of this.

[merrmeade]

Maybe I could just show him this.

[merrmeade]

No, nevermind, I'm not doing that - showing him this thread. If he wants to see it, he knows how to get here and could have been following all my posts. But he doesn't. I don't think it would help him, me or us.

 

I'll tell him. All of it and invite him to read this - which he won't.

[Lion Heart]

And so, here's my takeaway:

1 - Consciously or not, I did the bank record digging to help myself heal.

2 - By doing so, once again, I'm doing our work for both of us.

3 - To help him, to help us, I need to tell him — all of this.

 

1. Is this in an effort to leave "no stone unturned"?

To be able to fully "clean out those dirty cupboards" (the expression I've used in this R) ?

So that there is NOTHING left to find and therefore nothing left for him to hide?

For some type of true line in the sand to cross over?

They're sort of all the same line of questioning I think.

 

2. I think we have to do this the further along the NPD spectrum a WS is for R.

Though I wonder how many WSs are the ones who DO come home, confess fully after their first vow breaking effort then throw themselves wholeheartedly in to ALWAYS comforting their BS, doing EVERYTHING a WS has to do etc.

 

3. This is the full transparency of the BS in an effort to truly R IMO. Or at least get the R to "as good as it gets".

 

LH

[katielee]

 

I'll tell him. All of it and invite him to read this - which he won't.

 

Could this type of thing be why there are still issues? He won't go the work?

[understand50]

merrmeade,

 

There are many reasons why you dig some more. I think deep down, you will always dig or just keep you eyes open for new information. We all, wonder if our WS has been fully open and truthful. I urge you to dig as long as there is something to dig. When you find something, as you did, the question is does this add to the story, or does it show that they lied, or left parts out. As I said earlier, I don't think that this changes the basic story. So it is up to you and only you to decide what you will do with the "new" information. Keeping your goal in mind, reconciliation, just allows you to place it into a context and decide what YOU are going to do.

 

The larger question of why, or should you, keep looking is also up to you. Myself, I will continue to keep my eyes open. Things can never be kept totally secret. Things have come out much later, 20 years, about my wife spending and her ONS. If something comes along that changes her story or shows that she has been giving a "line" I will confront her. I think you should as well. At some point there will be nothing to go over, and you can stop, or just go into passive mode, and keep your eyes open. I think this is healthy. Our spouse have betrayed us at a very deep level. Going back to a time when we think and "know" we can give them unlimited trust is over. I do not think that you should or can trust another completely. We are all human, does not excuse cheating, but it can and does happen to the best of us. Sometimes during a moment of weakness, and sometime quite deliberately.

 

Does not mean we can't have the Intimacy and love we need with them or give to them. From my point of view, I could, and will, discuss and bring up issues, and talk to her. She will bring up things with me. Of course, she knows that once we talk it out it over, but just rug sweeping is not a option. The same goes for me, with her. I have gone over in other posts about our monthly "Talks" and the rules we have to keep a open truthful relationship, but not spoil that time that we have to be together as a couple.

 

The main point for trying to understand and having all your questions answered, no matter how painful everything is "How can you forgive someone, if you do not know what you are forgiving?" My forgiveness is total, but I do not want to find out I forgave a ONS, when she had a 2 month fling. (example only to make a point)

 

Merrmeade, go ahead and dig until you know what you are really forgiving. Same for all who need to find answers and understand what has happened to their life.

 

As always, I wish you luck and peace.

Edited November 9, 2015 by understand50
Spelling of course.......

[merrmeade]

No, nevermind, I'm not doing that - showing him this thread. If he wants to see it, he knows how to get here and could have been following all my posts. But he doesn't. I don't think it would help him, me or us.

 

I'll tell him. All of it and invite him to read this - which he won't.

I told him. I explained all the reasons I had looked (that I was aware of) at the records, that I'd discussed it on LS, and that I'd decided to discuss it with him.

 

It was EXACTLY as I'd suspected. I didn't even have to ask what it was. He said, "Oh, you mean the vibrator?" He said she'd mentioned that someone had told her she needed a vibrator, so he ordered her one and she returned it a month later. I pointed out to him that their PA started then, so this event clearly provoked her to prove to him that she was not sexually repressed.

 

We went on to talk about everything. Again. I learned a few new things about his f-ked up family dynamics and childhood but other than that it created complete emotional upheaval for both of us but without resolution, the same disappointing results as all of our other talks around his betrayals, remorse, etc. It's so not worth it to put myself through that, to make myself vulnerable to him again only to see that he can't feel it. He does't understand that regret for his actions and shame are not enough and not the same as showing that he felt the pain I felt. I'm not a psychologist and don't know how change the damage done by his childhood neglect and abuse.

 

So the real and most important reason - if I ever forget and ask this question again for some stupid reason - is that I'm okay without diving back down into the morass of his horrid betrayals of me. The best he can do - and it's something - is to very distinctly and clearly reassure me that it had NOTHING to do with me (i.e., was the result of his own demons).

 

It's an effort to make myself go back over everything with him and not something I need to do any more. My reality is not his darkness and I find it too dissatisfying and disturbing to go there and realize yet again how f-ked up he was and still is to some extent. Yes, it's sad, and I've talked about it all I need to this week.