Digging up old records, new questions.

[merrmeade]

Insidious means I don't think he realizes it.

Correction. Goodlord, yes, he knows he did that. He couldn't get my brother to play his games. Neither could SIL. My brother is hard to love for his absolute fidelity to truth at all costs at all times. THAT kind of transparency would, of course, not sit well with cheaters. So, just clarifying.

 

Damaged souls do damage. It's up to the undamaged ones to shine light AND love on what's important, what makes them and us better. That was my parents' legacy and that is what my darling daughter understands and reminds me of. She said once that I need to be the moral beacon for the family - something like that. I gulped twice and said I'd think about it. Still thinking and working on regaining mySELF. But I'll get there. Like S2B or somebody said. If I can find my way back to happiness, productivity, spiritual strength and all the rest that makes me feel good about being me, then maybe I can do somebody else some good.

[Mrs. John Adams]

Damaged souls do damage. It's up to the undamaged ones to shine light AND love on what's important, what makes them and us better.

 

But can't those of us who are damaged shine a light? Can't I be a beacon of hope? Can't i try to help others to not walk the path i have trod? Can't i leave this world a better place than what i found it?

 

Am i to forever walk in darkness? because i am damaged?

 

I am a positive person...and i see good in everyone.....and i try very hard to be compassionate to others.

 

Your husband must have endearing qualities.....or he would never have attracted you in the first place.....

 

Am I so wrong to think that if you concentrated on his beauty instead of the ugly parts....he might try to become better?

 

I know I frustrate you dear mermaid...and i don't mean to....truly i do not.

 

I have read this thread today and emailed back and forth to john who is away.....to discuss with him some of the things here that i don't understand.

 

I am wondering...do Betrayed spouses really expect their way wards to change their personality flaws? or to change who they are?

 

Katielee mentioned way wards turning themselves inside out.....Sometimes it takes a long time for someone to turn themselves inside out....it took me a very long time...but turning oneself inside out..does not change who I am.

 

And all bs have to accept limited growth...because the process is never over. We as individuals continue to grow...and relationships certainly continue to grow.

 

Perhaps we need to evaluate our expectations of our relationship.....in other words...pre affair....was your wayward spouse unable to communicate? Why then would you expect the WS to have suddenly changed to be able to communicate post affair?

 

Remorse does not change the wayward from the person they have always been.....

 

I am still me...I still have the same shortcomings and faults......

 

Can I grow to understand what I have within me that allowed me to make the choice to cheat? Yes...and I can set up the proper perimeters and adhere to them....but I am still who I was. Do we truly expect our wayward spouse to change who they are? Will you as the betrayed change who you are?

 

What is it you want from us?

 

John says i am not the person he thought i was......

 

I an not an evil person...but can I be? You are not an evil person..but can you be? Is evil and the ability to be evil in our nature? I believe it is....can we choose not to be...yes.

But freedom of choice...evil and good...are born into us....is it not?

 

I was a good woman...who made a bad choice. Am I capable of doing it again? Of course I am....but did my experience teach me so that I set myself up to not make a bad choice again? Yes

 

My mind is reeling today...forgive me......I am not sure I am understanding what I think I am hearing....please help me to understand.

[katielee]

Mrs JA - I hope you don't mind me answering. I couldn't stand myself after I did what I did. It wasn't about my poor choice, it was about the many poor choices leading up to that monumental one. I'm convinced that if I was a healthier person all together, I wouldn't have had an affair.

 

Sure, I am still myself to SOME extent, but I had to change many many personality traits I didn't like about myself so I could actually be an authentic person. The way I was living was NOT working so I had to change and that meant being very clear about what I valued. Giving yourself permission to have an affair is a pretty big personality flaw that I feel all waywards really need to stare in the face... that WHY actually leads to a lot of answers that usually solve other problems too.

 

When I say WS should turn themselves inside out I mean they should turn over every stone to figure out why they chose as they did, and how they can fix and heal from whatever made them make that choice. They owe it to their partner to be healthy... This is why I have gone to years of IC, read 100's of books - because I owe it to my spouse to be healthy. He deserves it after what I did. Turning myself inside out changed who I was. But I needed to do that anyway..

 

Do BS need to change who they are? Perhaps they're forced to simply by the shear fact that they're a BS. Someone here said there is nothing like infidelity to humble a person. And that I have in short supply.

[Mrs. John Adams]

What did you change katielee? Did you change your personality? Did you change you values and goals? Did you change who you are? Did you change your expectations? Are you no longer the same person?

 

What do you expect your husband to change? You say he does not communicate but he never did.. Is it realistic to think he will change that?

[katielee]

Yes to every question in your first paragraph. I was a person who just floated through life, letting things happen.

 

I don't expect my husband to change. He apparently doesn't see a need to and that is his choice. But it would be nice if he communicated more. Ill just have to decide if all his other great personality traits make up for it.

[merrmeade]

sorry I need to fix this and repost

Edited November 10, 2015 by merrmeade

[Mrs. John Adams]

Katielee,

 

And how did you change your personality? And from what to what?

so I want to know what part of your personality did you change and how did you change it? And did you change the things about you that your husband fell in love with? How have you become a better person? Are you still argumentative? Are you still a grudge holder ? What did you improve?

 

See I am still me ...just smarter...wiser... More sympathetic ... More compassionate....less selfish ....less judgmental... More understanding....but am still outgoing ... I am still positive...I am still me....

 

I am less trusting... Less naive..... And much more humble ... Because I believed was above what I became... I thought I was too good to lower Myself to that level...

 

Amazing isn't it what we can become....

[merrmeade]

Damaged souls do damage. It's up to the undamaged ones to shine light AND love on what's important, what makes them and us better.

 

But can't those of us who are damaged shine a light? Can't I be a beacon of hope? Can't i try to help others to not walk the path i have trod? Can't i leave this world a better place than what i found it?

 

Am i to forever walk in darkness? because i am damaged?

 

I am a positive person...and i see good in everyone.....and i try very hard to be compassionate to others.

 

Your husband must have endearing qualities.....or he would never have attracted you in the first place.....

 

Am I so wrong to think that if you concentrated on his beauty instead of the ugly parts....he might try to become better?

 

I know I frustrate you dear mermaid...and i don't mean to....truly i do not.

 

I have read this thread today and emailed back and forth to john who is away.....to discuss with him some of the things here that i don't understand.

 

I am wondering...do Betrayed spouses really expect their way wards to change their personality flaws? or to change who they are?

 

Katielee mentioned way wards turning themselves inside out.....Sometimes it takes a long time for someone to turn themselves inside out....it took me a very long time...but turning oneself inside out..does not change who I am.

 

And all bs have to accept limited growth...because the process is never over. We as individuals continue to grow...and relationships certainly continue to grow.

 

Perhaps we need to evaluate our expectations of our relationship.....in other words...pre affair....was your wayward spouse unable to communicate? Why then would you expect the WS to have suddenly changed to be able to communicate post affair?

 

Remorse does not change the wayward from the person they have always been.....

 

I am still me...I still have the same shortcomings and faults......

 

Can I grow to understand what I have within me that allowed me to make the choice to cheat? Yes...and I can set up the proper perimeters and adhere to them....but I am still who I was. Do we truly expect our wayward spouse to change who they are? Will you as the betrayed change who you are?

 

What is it you want from us?

 

John says i am not the person he thought i was......

 

I an not an evil person...but can I be? You are not an evil person..but can you be? Is evil and the ability to be evil in our nature? I believe it is....can we choose not to be...yes.

But freedom of choice...evil and good...are born into us....is it not?

 

I was a good woman...who made a bad choice. Am I capable of doing it again? Of course I am....but did my experience teach me so that I set myself up to not make a bad choice again? Yes

 

My mind is reeling today...forgive me......I am not sure I am understanding what I think I am hearing....please help me to understand.

 

Not sure my H wants to shine lights or hold himself up as a beacon of hope. I don't think I condemned him or anyone to forever walk in darkness. But we're in our late 60's and he's only just started and with a big chip on his shoulder at that. I'll be rooting the loudest for his progress into the light, but there's not as much time as there used to be and, well, he doesn't want it nearly as much as you did from what I can see. But I'm not stopping him.

 

Yes, you certainly are certainly a positive person and see good in everyone. So do I. My husband is not like that. He finds something to criticize in everyone actually.

 

“Your husband must have endearing qualities.....or he would never have attracted you in the first place.....” Yes, he was absolutely the most gorgeous man I have ever seen in my life. He’s great at creating sexual tension. He will always turn me on. We share the same political views and have pretty much the same artistic and cultural interests and aesthetics.

 

But right now I NEED to NOT ignore his ugly parts for my own recovery. I do not want to rug-sweep or pretend. I am the only witness to most of what he did. He’s more than just a philanderer, but, of course, I want him to try to become better?

 

It’s fair for you to insist that I give him a chance, but-t-t-t-t don’t forget: I was the BS. Do you not really and truly believe that the experience of being betrayed and discovering your partner’s adultery is truly the most destructive experience to every inch of the BS psyche of a a lifetime? If not, you're missing a very, very big point, which I thought you knew very well. What he did damaged ME and, as I pointed out in a recent post, my biological family to some extent. I was a victim and am not as over it and don't have it as together as it may sound. Hell, I'm sitting here spending hours writing about it on LS, for one thing. For example, the fact that I had to go through all that business about my family to me says that I haven't forgiven that aspect.

 

Please don't forget, when you've been hurt, you first have to stand up for yourself and believe that you didn't deserve it. I'm still doing that. Sometimes not as well as others. I still have feelings of worthlessness and profound loss which he is unable to help me with. But let me point out that he was the confidante and supreme listener and adviser for my SIL for 3-1/2 years. He was someone I’ve never known. So maybe we should now talk about how it really was my fault somehow?

 

Point is I'm not that necessarily stronger than he is. I'm still recovering. And the fact that he's spent a lifetime shutting down fears, weaknesses, empathy and just doesn't spend a lot of time worrying about anyone as much as himself means that he's an A+ survivor. He gets over everything. Granted, he had to in order to survive as a child, and that’s sad.

 

How is changing personality flaws different from changing who you are? How are these different? Not sure I'm following this though Katielee's explanation made sense

 

I beg to differ that BSs “have to accept limited growth.” BSs don't HAVE to do anything. They have every right to walk away and find someone else that can love them fully and exclusively.

 

I’ve said I think that my WH has always been unable to communicate. So, no, sadly I do NOT expect my WH to have suddenly changed to be able to communicate post affair. But do you also expect me not to NEED that communication?? Was it, therefore, my obligation not to need it from him? Or something from him. Anything. I've never needed it more in my life! But you’re right. I DO realize it was fruitless hoping that he would rise above his proclivities and give me what I needed. I finally gave up and went to IC for that reason. You're absolutely correct. He never could and so cannot now either. Sartre should have put a couple like us in his No Exit hell.

 

Remorse may “not change the wayward from the person they have always been,” but he has never convinced me of his remorse. He feels deep regret and shame for what he did. But when it comes to saying, showing or doing anything to convince me that he understands how I feel, he has never done that. In fact, he has corroborated my contention that he cannot.

 

Yes, you are a good woman who made a bad choice. But my WH's deepest fear is that he made bad choices BECAUSE he's a bad person. He pretty much made all choices based on trying to prove himself to be, not only a good person, but a better person than other men. He needed to convince himself and others of this and so constantly bent and brok his own rules to gain approval or prove himself better, even insinuating himself into people's families and completely changing his personality, doing things and being ways he'd never done or been so they would see him as a better father/son/husband than their own. He doesn't realize this at all or see the damage he reeked over the years. I only just figured it out myself.

 

I don't think he'll have another affair. I said I want to have a fulfilling life with him in every way possible for us. I forgive all his 'tendencies' and the fallout from a damaged childhood. I accept there's only so much he can do.

 

So I say back to you: Just what is it you want from me? I think the bottom line here is that you are identifying with someone you do not know. I don’t think you can assume everyone is as good and uncomplicated as yourself.

[katielee]

Katielee,

 

And how did you change your personality? And from what to what?

so I want to know what part of your personality did you change and how did you change it? And did you change the things about you that your husband fell in love with? How have you become a better person? Are you still argumentative? Are you still a grudge holder ? What did you improve?

 

See I am still me ...just smarter...wiser... More sympathetic ... More compassionate....less selfish ....less judgmental... More understanding....but am still outgoing ... I am still positive...I am still me....

 

I am less trusting... Less naive..... And much more humble ... Because I believed was above what I became... I thought I was too good to lower Myself to that level...

 

Amazing isn't it what we can become....

 

I've become authentically ME! I am perhaps more argumentative - I wasn't at all before. I am more compassionate to children. I am EXTREMELY giving to everyone, I am not as reactive. I know what I stand for and stick up for myself. I now know most people have gone through crap.

We have to define ourselves by what is important to US - not someone else. Your definition of a good person is probably different than mine.

I'm sure I have changed some of the things my husband loved about me... it's his choice whether to stay with me or not because of that. But I have to be myself, and let go of the outcome. that, to me, is integrity.

[Mrs. John Adams]

 

But right now I NEED to NOT ignore his ugly parts for my own recovery. I do not want to rug-sweep or pretend. I am the only witness to most of what he did. He’s more than just a philanderer, but, of course, I want him to try to become better?

I understand this totally.....i think everyone involved in infidelity has to face the ugly parts...has to acknowledge the ugly parts...especially the wayward...and that is a very hard thing to do...because we don't like what we see.

It’s fair for you to insist that I give him a chance, but-t-t-t-t don’t forget: I was the BS. Do you not really and truly believe that the experience of being betrayed and discovering your partner’s adultery is truly the most destructive experience to every inch of the BS psyche of a a lifetime? I am not insisting you do anything....i simply want to support you in YOUR decision to reconcile if that is what you feel is the right thing to do....I do believe infidelity is the worst thing that can happen to a betrayed...I saw what it did to my husbandIf not, you're missing a very, very big point, which I thought you knew very well. What he did damaged ME and, as I pointed out in a recent post, my biological family to some extent. I was a victim and am not as over it and don't have it as together as it may sound. Hell, I'm sitting here spending hours writing about it on LS, for one thing. For example, the fact that I had to go through all that business about my family to me says that I haven't forgiven that aspect. You are indeed a victim...in many ways for so many reasons and my heart breaks for you and others who have to endure this, I understand he damaged you...i saw what my husband became.....and it was my fault.

 

Please don't forget, when you've been hurt, you first have to stand up for yourself and believe that you didn't deserve it. I'm still doing that. Sometimes not as well as others. I still have feelings of worthlessness and profound loss which he is unable to help me with. But let me point out that he was the confidante and supreme listener and adviser for my SIL for 3-1/2 years. He was someone I’ve never known. So maybe we should now talk about how it really was my fault somehow?Yes...I truly believe a betrayed has every right to take back the power that the wayward removed....i do beleive you have to stand up for yourself and no matter what you did or did not do in the relationship...you did not deserve what he has done to you.

 

How is changing personality flaws different from changing who you are? How are these different? Not sure I'm following this though Katielee's explanation made senseI am convinced we can change behavior...I am not convinced we can change personality.

 

I beg to differ that BSs “have to accept limited growth.” BSs don't HAVE to do anything. They have every right to walk away and find someone else that can love them fully and exclusively.you misunderstood....i don't mean you HAVE to accept it as in you have to stay.....i mean if you are a person in any relationship...healthy or otherwise...we accept that we continue to grow....i am still learning and growing in my remorse....learning and growing as a person.....and at any given time...john can pull the plug and say enough....i cant take it anymore.....i worded it wrong and i apologize

 

I’ve said I think that my WH has always been unable to communicate. So, no, sadly I do NOT expect my WH to have suddenly changed to be able to communicate post affair. But do you also expect me not to NEED that communication?? no absolutely not.....it has always been important...however my point is...i don't see how his having an affair is now going to help him to become a great communicator.....he can make changes...he NEEDS to make changes....but he may never become what you want Was it, therefore, my obligation not to need it from him? Or something from him. Anything. I've never needed it more in my life! But you’re right. I DO realize it was fruitless hoping that he would rise above his proclivities and give me what I needed. I finally gave up and went to IC for that reason. You're absolutely correct. He never could and so cannot now either. Sartre should have put a couple like us in his No Exit hell.and this is the saddest part for me to read.....he was not then and he never will be what you need....or what you deserve....sadly...i get your point

 

Remorse may “not change the wayward from the person they have always been,” but he has never convinced me of his remorse. He feels deep regret and shame for what he did. But when it comes to saying, showing or doing anything to convince me that he understands how I feel, he has never done that. In fact, he has corroborated my contention that he cannot.I also totally understand this....he is not doing his part....but you accept what he is able to give...and that decision is yours and yours alone to make

 

Yes, you are a good woman who made a bad choice. But my WH's deepest fear is that he made bad choices BECAUSE he's a bad person. He pretty much made all choices based on trying to prove himself to be, not only a good person, but a better person than other men. He needed to convince himself and others of this and so constantly bent and brok his own rules to gain approval or prove himself better, even insinuating himself into people's families and completely changing his personality, doing things and being ways he'd never done or been so they would see him as a better father/son/husband than their own. He doesn't realize this at all or see the damage he reeked over the years. I only just figured it out myself. This is deeply sad...that he is such a sad person...i did not say a bad person...a sad one.

 

I don't think he'll have another affair. I said I want to have a fulfilling life with him in every way possible for us. I forgive all his 'tendencies' and the fallout from a damaged childhood. I accept there's only so much he can do.

 

So I say back to you: Just what is it you want from me? I think the bottom line here is that you are identifying with someone you do not know. I don’t think you can assume everyone is as good and uncomplicated as yourself.

 

My dear friend....I do not know you or your husband. I only know what i read...and i do try to see the good even in the midst of destruction and turmoil. I don't profess to understand your situation and i truly care or i would not bother to ask you questions to better understand. I do not identify with your husband....the only thing i see we have in common is that fact that we are both cheaters....and we are both flawed. So if i have offended you i deeply regret it. That was never my intent.

 

I am sorry.

[Mrs. John Adams]

I've become authentically ME! I am perhaps more argumentative - I wasn't at all before. I am more compassionate to children. I am EXTREMELY giving to everyone, I am not as reactive. I know what I stand for and stick up for myself. I now know most people have gone through crap.

We have to define ourselves by what is important to US - not someone else. Your definition of a good person is probably different than mine.

I'm sure I have changed some of the things my husband loved about me... it's his choice whether to stay with me or not because of that. But I have to be myself, and let go of the outcome. that, to me, is integrity.

 

So you were not you all those years you were married pre affair? but now post affair you are authentically you?

[JohnAdams]

I have been following this thread and not really felt I could contribute a lot to the already thought provoking dialogue. But, finally, felt I could chime in with my opinion.

 

 

I think our basic personalities are basically baked in long before we are adults. We may change some as we age, especially if the preference for one characteristic is not overly strong, but we are not going to alter our primary personality preferences. On the other hand, we can definitely alter our behavior. A felon can be reformed. An adulterer can be reformed.

 

 

The question then is does the person who committed the transgression seek to repent for their actions? An adulterer can change their behavior and repent, this does not change their personality or who they fundamentality are but they can now see their flaws and do the work to correct them and make sure those actions are not repeated.

 

 

If a person truly repents and asks for forgiveness from the person that they have hurt, it is all they can do. They cannot change the past.

 

 

The trouble is, repentance is very difficult for the vain. Those that find excuses or weaknesses for what they have done.

 

 

I must admit, I may not be strong enough to forgive the things that your husband has done. You are a strong woman, I wish you the best.

[katielee]

So you were not you all those years you were married pre affair? but now post affair you are authentically you?

 

Much more so yes. I just did what other ppl wanted me to. Was who they wanted me to be. Or who I thought I should be.

 

I know you and MrJA snd I might not ever agree that personalities change but I think when some ppl go through things they change. My husband has told me repeatedly that've what i did changed his personality.

Edited November 11, 2015 by katielee

[Mrs. John Adams]

Much more so yes. I just did what other ppl wanted me to. Was who they wanted me to be. Or who I thought I should be.

 

I know you and MrJA snd I might not ever agree that personalities change but I think when some ppl go through things they change. My husband has told me repeatedly that've what i did changed his personality.

 

and john says what i did changed the person he was as well....but it did not change his personality...it changed his perspective. It changed how he approached life. It changed his outlook on life.

 

Personality is who you are... behavior is how you act. You can change your behavior but not who you are. John is shy by nature and is not a flirt...but because of my affair and the destruction it caused him...he became more aggressive to prove a point to me and even to himself. He was still shy...and he always will be....but he forced himself to behave differently.He says he hated the way he behaved.

 

Just like you say you behaved the way people thought you should...but it really was not who you were. So you behaved in a way to make others happy...but you were not happy within yourself. Your personality did not change...you have changed your behavior.

 

when I had my affair...john did not recognize who i was.....because i was behaving differently than i ever had....though my personality was still me.

[merrmeade]

My dear friend....I do not know you or your husband. I only know what i read...and i do try to see the good even in the midst of destruction and turmoil. I don't profess to understand your situation and i truly care or i would not bother to ask you questions to better understand. I do not identify with your husband....the only thing i see we have in common is that fact that we are both cheaters....and we are both flawed. So if i have offended you i deeply regret it. That was never my intent.

 

I am sorry.

First, my previous response was a bit messy after rewriting when my post wouldn't submit. (I'd embedded comments in your post, but the auto-response kept rejecting my 1,530-word message as too short. ) But I'm trying again. I want to get it right.

 

You try to reach so many with your phenomenal all-embracing, open spirit, but not every WS can be as self-reflective, articulate, AND lacking in vanity - as John just called it. I do envy your husband, but I'm realistic. And that was exactly my point: YOU, my dear, are in a class altogether, a class unknown to my WH, and I will get my dander up if he's offered a free pass into your elite club. He has not even pretended to want, much less made an effort to embrace your kind of work and remorse. Until he turns that corner, he does not deserve the benefit of your kind benefit of the doubt. Kindness, yes, but not assumptions about his sincerity, remorse or personal ideals.

 

[i've edited this paragraph about five times now as I realize he IS changing...]

I'm pretty sure he would agree with me, that he would not identify with your attitude, approach or declarations, even ridicule the superlatives and emotional vocabulary. But maybe it's a contradiction like everything else. He sees vulnerability, conscious or otherwise, as a weakness. As recently as even a few months ago he would smirk when he asked me if I was on Loveshack and chortle. On the other hand, he's said once or twice he admired my ability to articulate my feelings (you could've knocked me over with a feather). Tough talk, vulnerable heart.

 

Obviously you meant well with every fiber of your being. You didn't do anything wrong. Just the opposite. Nor was I accusing you of doing anything less than helping, being positive and encouraging, but there were assumptions that just don't wash in every case. I agree that everyone deserves encouragement for genuine effort to share and support, and I try to do that. He is trying to earn it. I do believe that.

Edited November 11, 2015 by merrmeade

[Mrs. John Adams]

If I could I would slap some sense into him for you!

 

Your sweet words made me cry. If only I had been as I am now for the past thirty years my John has struggled. If only I had not said so many hurtful things that still today tear him apart.

 

That is why I say never give up hope! One so vile as me finally understood ... And if me why not others?

 

I do understand and I appreciate your patience with me. Thank you for your explanations. Your husband is right... You have a gift of writing.

 

I know your gift touches others...

[katielee]

and john says what i did changed the person he was as well....but it did not change his personality...it changed his perspective. It changed how he approached life. It changed his outlook on life.

 

Personality is who you are... behavior is how you act. You can change your behavior but not who you are. John is shy by nature and is not a flirt...but because of my affair and the destruction it caused him...he became more aggressive to prove a point to me and even to himself. He was still shy...and he always will be....but he forced himself to behave differently.He says he hated the way he behaved.

 

Just like you say you behaved the way people thought you should...but it really was not who you were. So you behaved in a way to make others happy...but you were not happy within yourself. Your personality did not change...you have changed your behavior.

 

when I had my affair...john did not recognize who i was.....because i was behaving differently than i ever had....though my personality was still me.

 

I'm not quite sure why this is such a big point on this thread - do personalities change - but whatever... I maintain that the WS has some big changes to make and needs to show those changes through behavior or actions to the BS so that the BS has some inkling the WS has changed. But most importantly, the WS needs those changes for THEMSELVES. Because whether or not the relationship is maintained is not really the point. Changing oneself so that you don't betray YOURSELF anymore is...

only you Merrmeade, can decide if those changes, if any, are enough for you. or if his other great traits are enough to stay in the marriage.

Does he want to be mentally healthy for HIMSELF? Does he even get that?

I'm not trying to be glib or insulting. I just don't think many WS figure this out. They mostly just say to themselves that they better behave now.

[Mrs. John Adams]

I'm not quite sure why this is such a big point on this thread - do personalities change - but whatever... I maintain that the WS has some big changes to make and needs to show those changes through behavior or actions to the BS so that the BS has some inkling the WS has changed. But most importantly, the WS needs those changes for THEMSELVES. Because whether or not the relationship is maintained is not really the point. Changing oneself so that you don't betray YOURSELF anymore is...

only you Merrmeade, can decide if those changes, if any, are enough for you. or if his other great traits are enough to stay in the marriage.

Does he want to be mentally healthy for HIMSELF? Does he even get that?

I'm not trying to be glib or insulting. I just don't think many WS figure this out. They mostly just say to themselves that they better behave now.

 

I agree that only merrmeade knows what she can and cannot tolerate...what is best for her situation. She seems pretty determined to stay with her husband. She seems to have a good head on her shoulders and a good grasp on what she needs to do to bring healing.

 

and that's the bottom line for each of us...

 

Katielee....You and i have much in common...and yet we differ greatly on our approach. Which proves that...there is no right or wrong answer in how we deal with infidelity. You have a philosophy that is very ME centered and I have a philosophy that is very US centered. You have concentrated on healing yourself to be better for him....and i have concentrated on healing him which has in turn helped me. Katielee....you see yourself as a betrayed wife.....and i see myself as a betrayer. I think because we look at ourselves very differently....our concentrations are also different. You think i don't "get it" because i want to heal my husband instead of myself....and i think you don't "get it" because you are too self absorbed in your healing and not concentrating on the needs of your husband. We are never going to agree.

 

Merrmeade is a betrayed wife....and her husband is not providing all the things she needs for healing....she has no choice but to heal herself so i can see that she relates much more to your philosophy of healing oneself...and you relate to merrmeade as a betrayed wife....and while i too am a betrayed wife...that is not my concentration.

[katielee]

Mrs JA - you have been borderline insulting to me on this thread and I'm not sure why. actually, you have crossed the line. I never said you don't "get it." I said most WS don't. I actually think you do. But you read so much into my stuff - and you are a person who doesn't even know me... But because I don't do it like you you feel the need to put me in my place. I don't understand that but whatever.

 

But most importantly, you have accused me of not concentrating on my husband's needs - and that you are dead wrong. I do everything I can. He would say so. To accuse me of not doing this - or more correctly not doing it like YOU do and therefore wrong - is fairly abusive and I won't stand for it nor reply to you anymore. I have never said the way you do it is wrong or that you don't get it. You have said there is no right or wrong way but then you insult me because it's not like you... and I'm done.

[burnt]

I think our basic personalities are basically baked in long before we are adults. We may change some as we age, especially if the preference for one characteristic is not overly strong, but we are not going to alter our primary personality preferences.

 

The trouble is, repentance is very difficult for the vain. Those that find excuses or weaknesses for what they have done.

 

 

This reminds of a beautiful TED talk:

 

There's a line in there about the difference of 'you being wrong' and 'realizing you're wrong'.

 

Repentance is easy, once you realize and acknowledge you did something wrong.

It's the self-realization part that's hard.

 

From our point of view, our actions do seem so rational and justifiable most of the times; trying to analyze our own thoughts through the lens of someone else's vantage point is not easy.

 

I agree with what you wrote, but

I am just wondering…

I'm not so sure where to always draw the fine line between 'excuses' and 'reasons'

[Mrs. John Adams]

Mrs JA - you have been borderline insulting to me on this thread and I'm not sure why. actually, you have crossed the line. I never said you don't "get it." I said most WS don't. I actually think you do. But you read so much into my stuff - and you are a person who doesn't even know me... But because I don't do it like you you feel the need to put me in my place. I don't understand that but whatever.

 

But most importantly, you have accused me of not concentrating on my husband's needs - and that you are dead wrong. I do everything I can. He would say so. To accuse me of not doing this - or more correctly not doing it like YOU do and therefore wrong - is fairly abusive and I won't stand for it nor reply to you anymore. I have never said the way you do it is wrong or that you don't get it. You have said there is no right or wrong way but then you insult me because it's not like you... and I'm done.

 

I guess it is all in the perception because i was insulted by your post and it sounds like neither of us meant it to be that way. I apologize if it sounded insulting...it was not meant to be that way....but you are right...it is best to end the conversation.

[understand50]

All,

 

This has been a good thread, with much explored, and discussed.

 

To get back to the original question by merrmeade:

 

So, yes, I'm avoiding something difficult. What do I lose by letting it go? Is there a good reason to confront him with this discovery since I already feel I understand it? What would I gain from making him admit to this? What will I lose if I don't?

 

I think after all that has been written, we may come to some agreement. For someone who has the goal to reconcile.

 

First, I think continuing to dig about what and why this happen will to some extent continue, but as time goes on will happen less. If something comes up, that is "new" it will need to weighed to decide if it adds to the detail, or shows that what has been accepted, is false. Depending on what it is, the decision is then to confront, or just to keep it for future use as needed. A cost/benefit question should be asked if this furthers or hinders reconciliation. Also, some just may need to know for their own sake, and that is valid as well.

 

Second, This question or issue came out in the discussion, Men and Women are all different. Some can show and know remorse, while others may never be able to really understand. For the BS, it will be one more thing they will have to carry, if they decide to reconcile. They may have to face the fact, that their spouse, may never reach a level to show and understand the pain and hurt they have inflected. In this case, understanding this, I think, is the key to moving on and healing oneself. We may stay for many reasons, We love them, we need their support, we can not see a life with out them, We have kids with them and want to protect them from what "we" are going trough, we are honorable, and can not see them unprotected and cast off, and finally and most importantly, IT IS WHAT WE WANT. An affair by one part of a marriage or relationship, leave the other powerless. Making our own mind up about what we want, gives us back that power.

 

Merrmeade, I hope this has been helpful to you and that your original questions were answered. I share Mrs J Adams desire, I would like to shake some sense into your husband. That is not going to happen. He is one lucky SOB to have you. I am sure at some level he realizes that, but one can never really know what is going on deep in a mind. I still have hope that your healing is closer them you think.

 

The next question, do people change because of cheating. The answer is yes. Both sides. The BS learns that this can and did happen. Something of the relationship is lost and can never be replaced. The one cheating, knows that they can do this to someone they love. Both will never be the same, hopefully behaviors will change for both. Hopefully for the better. As for myself, I sure as hell hope that I have changed from my 16 year old self, that first was betrayed, and from my 50 year self that had to face my wife nearly bankrupting us. I hope I also kept something, that I will continue to see some good in everyone, but keep in mind that everyone has the capacity for bad.

 

With that being stated, the question of, can a WS change and know and show full remorse? The response must be - Maybe, and it is up to them to find out how they can. I share Katielee, idea that most WS do not get it, but some may in time.

 

My 2 cents, and as always I wish all good luck.

[merrmeade]

And as always, your two cents is exactly right, u50. Fair and accurate summation with nods to each important contributor, all of whom I am endebted to for thoughtful, relevent comments — all. I really like that you came in the beginning with a few challenges and suggestions and returned in the end to tie it all up together. Perfect.

 

It's really kind of weird, isnt' it? that we know each other so well on a freakin' anonymous forum. Well, you got me right — each of you.

 

Anyway, thanks, everyone.

[Noirek]

I'm not so sure where to always draw the fine line between 'excuses' and 'reasons'

 

The line between the negative usage of excuse and the word reason is not fine at all. The problem is people are often extreme and blind to it. They are so afraid of lessening blame or whatever that they throw out reasons.

 

Excuses either lesson or pardon actions. Where I work we get strikes against us for being late. All sorts of excuses for being so are dismissed. They may very well a valid and true reason i.e. Bad road conditions but they don't excuse the lateness because one could have left earlier. However, if a person is late because an accident happened and the road closed the lateness will be excused. The former is still a true a reason for being late but with another reason attatched-you should have noted the road conditions and left earlier, the latter is a valid excuse

 

People all have affairs for reasons. Sometimes more than one. And yes you could boil it down to selfishness, but really, so can many, many actions. Just because reasons are given doesn't mean they are excuses. And yes, sometimes people make up reasons and try to use them as excuses.

 

There is no excuse for cheating. Whether the reason a person chose to cheat was because they were denied sex to they were cheated on themselves. Those are real reasons that happen and have lead to cheating. But they don't excuse the cheating. And they are coupled with things like poor boundaries, foo, poor coping skills, ect.

 

The reason I chose to cheat the first time was because I was depressed, in denial about it and stuck in my own self absorbed state, I am I am inherently attracted to the deviance of cheating and at the same time repulsed by it. I felt ugly and that my H no longer wanted to have sex with me. I have a high sex drive that is not satisfied by self pleasuring. (Sorry, tmi). I was sexual curious but inexperienced. I was not fully honest with myself being in a sexless marriage and therefore did not communicate fully with my husband and so forth.

 

None of the reasons in anyway made what I did any less terrible than it was. They don't take any blame off me. I was and still am 100% responsible for my actions. And nothing I have said changes that. But people who so fear excuses just see that. Their emotions and bias get in the way of logic. And that is that you can have reasons that do not excuse an action.

 

I am sorry if I repeated myself. It was a long night.

[Noirek]

As to the topic, I value being in a relationship where no topic is off bounds. I think the very fact I couldn't say something was bugging me because of fear of reaction would bother me. But I don't know that for sure and I don't believe my values in a relationship or necessarily the next person's or even the "right" way. And I can see how the sex toy was over looked or forgotten or not deemed important enough to be mentioned. So I can see why bringing it up would seem unnecessary as it doesn't change what is known.

 

What I would do? I would probably let it eat at me or in the very least keep coming back to my mind. And then I would probably say something. I would say how I felt the need to go over past financial purchases to work through some stuff. I came across the sex toy purchase. It surprised me or whatever but then I was concerned mentioning it would set you in a shame spiral. It got me thinking a lot about how I hate not being able to talk about this for fear of your reaction. And I would hopefully say all this with no expectations. Just to unburden me.

 

However, this talk would be based on my personal need to share everything. Its not neccesarily how you, OP or the next persom sees things. Or sorts through things. I just know for me not people able to talk about it would be what would eat at me, were I in your shoes. More so than the actual subject. But like I said, I see also giving up the need as the discovery does not change the whole picture. And there are times letting go can be a better choice.