Digging up old records, new questions.

[S2B]

You will never get from him what you wish for. It will come from yourself.

 

You are enough Merm. You are enough to make yourself happy.

 

He can be your accessory. It may not look like the accessory you want - but I suppose it is the one you need.

 

It's enough digging - he's not capable of processing more than he already has processed. Asking for more could potentially damage him further; given his past.

 

He's learned to shut things out in order to survive. You can't expect the impossible - he can't do what you wish he could do.

 

Acceptance helps... Accept that this is who he is and it's as much as he can give you.

[understand50]

I told him. I explained all the reasons I had looked (that I was aware of) at the records, that I'd discussed it on LS, and that I'd decided to discuss it with him.

 

It was EXACTLY as I'd suspected. I didn't even have to ask what it was. He said, "Oh, you mean the vibrator?" He said she'd mentioned that someone had told her she needed a vibrator, so he ordered her one and she returned it a month later. I pointed out to him that their PA started then, so this event clearly provoked her to prove to him that she was not sexually repressed.

 

We went on to talk about everything. Again. I learned a few new things about his f-ked up family dynamics and childhood but other than that it created complete emotional upheaval for both of us but without resolution, the same disappointing results as all of our other talks around his betrayals, remorse, etc. It's so not worth it to put myself through that, to make myself vulnerable to him again only to see that he can't feel it. He does't understand that regret for his actions and shame are not enough and not the same as showing that he felt the pain I felt. I'm not a psychologist and don't know how change the damage done by his childhood neglect and abuse.

 

So the real and most important reason - if I ever forget and ask this question again for some stupid reason - is that I'm okay without diving back down into the morass of his horrid betrayals of me. The best he can do - and it's something - is to very distinctly and clearly reassure me that it had NOTHING to do with me (i.e., was the result of his own demons).

 

It's an effort to make myself go back over everything with him and not something I need to do any more. My reality is not his darkness and I find it too dissatisfying and disturbing to go there and realize yet again how f-ked up he was and still is to some extent. Yes, it's sad, and I've talked about it all I need to this week.

 

merrmeade,

 

It all comes down to the cost/benefit of moving on with both your reconciliation. Hate to make it sound so disconnected from your pain, but unless new information changes the "whole" story, I would just save anything else and wait for a time, if it can come for him, when he can feel and know remorse for what he has done to you. You need to look after yourself and your well being, as he is broken, and that provides him his emotional protection. You may never get what you want from him, but you need to see what he can provide in the way of remorse, and see if you can live with that. Mrs Adams example, comes to mind. She did everything she thought of to help John, but in the end and after many years she finally "Got" it. She seem much more put together then your husband, so using her as a baseline, you may need to see if he is capable at this time, or if you can imagine him ever being capable of Abigail's level of remorse or understanding.

 

Sorry for this newest pain, but I hope that it has given you some insight and a little peace.

 

As always, I wish you luck.

[merrmeade]

merrmeade,

 

It all comes down to the cost/benefit of moving on with both your reconciliation. Hate to make it sound so disconnected from your pain, but unless new information changes the "whole" story, I would just save anything else and wait for a time, if it can come for him, when he can feel and know remorse for what he has done to you. You need to look after yourself and your well being, as he is broken, and that provides him his emotional protection. You may never get what you want from him, but you need to see what he can provide in the way of remorse, and see if you can live with that. Mrs Adams example, comes to mind. She did everything she thought of to help John, but in the end and after many years she finally "Got" it. She seem much more put together then your husband, so using her as a baseline, you may need to see if he is capable at this time, or if you can imagine him ever being capable of Abigail's level of remorse or understanding.

 

Sorry for this newest pain, but I hope that it has given you some insight and a little peace.

 

As always, I wish you luck.

Thank you, u50, agree with all except the possibility he'll "get it" as per Abigail's example. Nope, not hoping for that sadly. His parents, who never supported, comforted or otherwise made him feel loved, created these deep flaws in the first place. His sisters, their friends, and all the women who objectified and pushed him to 'perform' all his life as a sexualized being have finished it.

[merrmeade]

Though am not excusing by any stretch of the imagination. Nope, feet flat on the ground, clear-eyed, with no illusions what this is. Besides, plenty of people (recently: bdt, for example) show the deep humanity and fortitude to reach way, way beyond what childhood trauma often blocks. No, it's an explanation, not an excuse, and I, as the person most injured by his 'issues,' have every right to shoot a finger at them and him and turn my back for good. Would that I'd had that option years ago. But then, would I unwish the three awesome people we created together? Of course not (though I WILL take most of the credit).

 

Just saying that I know, I know. Ultimately it is on the individual. He fully accepts this just as I fully see it as his as well and must accept that, at this moment in time, this is what he can do and give him a little credit - just a little - that it's better than it was last year, the year before that and all the decades before. And that I'll take it and him as is.

[merrmeade]

You will never get from him what you wish for. It will come from yourself.

 

You are enough Merm. You are enough to make yourself happy.

 

He can be your accessory. It may not look like the accessory you want - but I suppose it is the one you need.

 

It's enough digging - he's not capable of processing more than he already has processed. Asking for more could potentially damage him further; given his past.

 

He's learned to shut things out in order to survive. You can't expect the impossible - he can't do what you wish he could do.

 

Acceptance helps... Accept that this is who he is and it's as much as he can give you.

Thanks S2B. I just realized that my last two posts pretty much reflect these sentiments. Yep. You see it.

[S2B]

Some people can face their trauma because the time is right and they are ready.

 

 

If a person is pushed to process that when they aren't yet ready - it can cause a whole host of new issues.

 

 

Ya have to wait until the victim is ready.

 

 

Some folks never are ready...

[katielee]

You will never get from him what you wish for. It will come from yourself.

 

You are enough Merm. You are enough to make yourself happy.

 

He can be your accessory. It may not look like the accessory you want - but I suppose it is the one you need.

 

It's enough digging - he's not capable of processing more than he already has processed. Asking for more could potentially damage him further; given his past.

 

He's learned to shut things out in order to survive. You can't expect the impossible - he can't do what you wish he could do.

 

Acceptance helps... Accept that this is who he is and it's as much as he can give you.

 

My IC (and other people) have told me pretty much this about my hubby too. When you see other folks who's wayward spouses turn themselves inside out you just wonder. It's sad. The BS then has to accept affair AND limited growth.

That's why I hate the Walt Disney reconciliation stories. It's just not usually like that.

Hugs merrmeade!

[Mrs. John Adams]

Mermaid(I have stolen lions pet name)....

 

Many of us have been damaged.....and I am sorry your husband is one of those people. I accept that you accept him for what he is and that you are willing to love him and support him.

 

I know you are not making excuses for him....and you still hold him accountable.

 

I just want to say....that hope....is not a bad thing. We hope for things to come...and even though we realize they may not come to pass....we can still hope that they will. Hope with eyes wide open?

 

your husband may never reach the final plateau of remorse and healing..( do any of us? )but he is climbing the mountain. He may not get there as fast as you want him to...but he is trying to the best of his ability. He may back slide...he may have to rest...he may feel like giving up....but as long as the two of you encourage and support each other...you can make the climb....So never give up hope my friend....

[merrmeade]

Hugs back, katielee. You've inspired me in a lot of ways. For one, your good use of LS as a sounding board. It's good to know it's always there when reality overwhelms. For another, your incredibly upbeat interpretation of your H's actions and wee steps forward. I love that. You're further along on the acceptance spectrum than I, so please pull up my respect and admiration sometimes when you feel discouraged. :) And then there's your tenacity and perseverance. Hope he gets this a little.

[merrmeade]

Mermaid(I have stolen lions pet name)....

 

Many of us have been damaged.....and I am sorry your husband is one of those people. I accept that you accept him for what he is and that you are willing to love him and support him.

 

I know you are not making excuses for him....and you still hold him accountable.

 

I just want to say....that hope....is not a bad thing. We hope for things to come...and even though we realize they may not come to pass....we can still hope that they will. Hope with eyes wide open?

 

your husband may never reach the final plateau of remorse and healing..( do any of us? )but he is climbing the mountain. He may not get there as fast as you want him to...but he is trying to the best of his ability. He may back slide...he may have to rest...he may feel like giving up....but as long as the two of you encourage and support each other...you can make the climb....So never give up hope my friend....

Dear, dear Mrs. JA. Your willingness to believe in others and hope for change is so endearing. How John must love you for it. I won't try to argue but do realize for myself that my WH is not and never will be like that.

 

Moreover, there was much more that he did - all as a result of his problems - than the As. He virtually destroyed the my biological family's relationships. There were other factors, but it's mostly on him. Just to give a taste, I'll explain a little. For example, we've pretty much lost any possibility of continuing my parents' legacy — deep loyalty and celebration of shared values. SIL contributed to this because she's also damaged by an alcoholic mother (they shared a lot - blech). They sat around and obliquely denigrated the entire clan through insinuations and dark humor. Most of the SIL/WH mutual reinforcement was jealousy and recognition of my parents' far-reaching generosity and nobility proved by the fact that both of them were taken under my parents' wings - WH by my father; SIL by my mother - and given the love and unconditional approval they'd never received. But at the same time WH used this closeness with my aging, vulnerable father to undermine his affection for my other brother and make himself the obedient, attentive substitute. It's just one example of what he's done all his adult life with a LOT of people - ingratiating himself and then slyly pointing out how much better of a friend/son/father/(whatever) than someone else. It always nauseated me and yet was so clearly an act of the repressed child who never got that birthright himself.

 

The unforgivable part, which WH only barely can acknowledge, is the insidious way he tried to turn family against my brother, making himself look 'better,' and promoting disaffection toward members of that brother's family. Insidious means I don't think he realizes it.

 

Whatever. It's too late to fix any of that anyway. My parents died pretty much fine and my gratitude and love for them was unaffected as was the admiration of many generations of the people they loved and touched. SIL knows this and can eat sh-t. She poisons my nephews' POV and that was inevitable. WH begrudgingly acknowledges their fine character, ability and willingness to nurture and make the world a better place. Neither of SIL nor WH had the power to change that fact. And WH is not entirely responsible for making my one living brother a person who would so easily turn his back on the work that my parents did to show us the power of love.

[merrmeade]

Insidious means I don't think he realizes it.

Correction. Goodlord, yes, he knows he did that. He couldn't get my brother to play his games. Neither could SIL. My brother is hard to love for his absolute fidelity to truth at all costs at all times. THAT kind of transparency would, of course, not sit well with cheaters. So, just clarifying.

 

Damaged souls do damage. It's up to the undamaged ones to shine light AND love on what's important, what makes them and us better. That was my parents' legacy and that is what my darling daughter understands and reminds me of. She said once that I need to be the moral beacon for the family - something like that. I gulped twice and said I'd think about it. Still thinking and working on regaining mySELF. But I'll get there. Like S2B or somebody said. If I can find my way back to happiness, productivity, spiritual strength and all the rest that makes me feel good about being me, then maybe I can do somebody else some good.

[Mrs. John Adams]

Damaged souls do damage. It's up to the undamaged ones to shine light AND love on what's important, what makes them and us better.

 

But can't those of us who are damaged shine a light? Can't I be a beacon of hope? Can't i try to help others to not walk the path i have trod? Can't i leave this world a better place than what i found it?

 

Am i to forever walk in darkness? because i am damaged?

 

I am a positive person...and i see good in everyone.....and i try very hard to be compassionate to others.

 

Your husband must have endearing qualities.....or he would never have attracted you in the first place.....

 

Am I so wrong to think that if you concentrated on his beauty instead of the ugly parts....he might try to become better?

 

I know I frustrate you dear mermaid...and i don't mean to....truly i do not.

 

I have read this thread today and emailed back and forth to john who is away.....to discuss with him some of the things here that i don't understand.

 

I am wondering...do Betrayed spouses really expect their way wards to change their personality flaws? or to change who they are?

 

Katielee mentioned way wards turning themselves inside out.....Sometimes it takes a long time for someone to turn themselves inside out....it took me a very long time...but turning oneself inside out..does not change who I am.

 

And all bs have to accept limited growth...because the process is never over. We as individuals continue to grow...and relationships certainly continue to grow.

 

Perhaps we need to evaluate our expectations of our relationship.....in other words...pre affair....was your wayward spouse unable to communicate? Why then would you expect the WS to have suddenly changed to be able to communicate post affair?

 

Remorse does not change the wayward from the person they have always been.....

 

I am still me...I still have the same shortcomings and faults......

 

Can I grow to understand what I have within me that allowed me to make the choice to cheat? Yes...and I can set up the proper perimeters and adhere to them....but I am still who I was. Do we truly expect our wayward spouse to change who they are? Will you as the betrayed change who you are?

 

What is it you want from us?

 

John says i am not the person he thought i was......

 

I an not an evil person...but can I be? You are not an evil person..but can you be? Is evil and the ability to be evil in our nature? I believe it is....can we choose not to be...yes.

But freedom of choice...evil and good...are born into us....is it not?

 

I was a good woman...who made a bad choice. Am I capable of doing it again? Of course I am....but did my experience teach me so that I set myself up to not make a bad choice again? Yes

 

My mind is reeling today...forgive me......I am not sure I am understanding what I think I am hearing....please help me to understand.

[katielee]

Mrs JA - I hope you don't mind me answering. I couldn't stand myself after I did what I did. It wasn't about my poor choice, it was about the many poor choices leading up to that monumental one. I'm convinced that if I was a healthier person all together, I wouldn't have had an affair.

 

Sure, I am still myself to SOME extent, but I had to change many many personality traits I didn't like about myself so I could actually be an authentic person. The way I was living was NOT working so I had to change and that meant being very clear about what I valued. Giving yourself permission to have an affair is a pretty big personality flaw that I feel all waywards really need to stare in the face... that WHY actually leads to a lot of answers that usually solve other problems too.

 

When I say WS should turn themselves inside out I mean they should turn over every stone to figure out why they chose as they did, and how they can fix and heal from whatever made them make that choice. They owe it to their partner to be healthy... This is why I have gone to years of IC, read 100's of books - because I owe it to my spouse to be healthy. He deserves it after what I did. Turning myself inside out changed who I was. But I needed to do that anyway..

 

Do BS need to change who they are? Perhaps they're forced to simply by the shear fact that they're a BS. Someone here said there is nothing like infidelity to humble a person. And that I have in short supply.

[Mrs. John Adams]

What did you change katielee? Did you change your personality? Did you change you values and goals? Did you change who you are? Did you change your expectations? Are you no longer the same person?

 

What do you expect your husband to change? You say he does not communicate but he never did.. Is it realistic to think he will change that?

[katielee]

Yes to every question in your first paragraph. I was a person who just floated through life, letting things happen.

 

I don't expect my husband to change. He apparently doesn't see a need to and that is his choice. But it would be nice if he communicated more. Ill just have to decide if all his other great personality traits make up for it.

[merrmeade]

sorry I need to fix this and repost

Edited November 10, 2015 by merrmeade

[Mrs. John Adams]

Katielee,

 

And how did you change your personality? And from what to what?

so I want to know what part of your personality did you change and how did you change it? And did you change the things about you that your husband fell in love with? How have you become a better person? Are you still argumentative? Are you still a grudge holder ? What did you improve?

 

See I am still me ...just smarter...wiser... More sympathetic ... More compassionate....less selfish ....less judgmental... More understanding....but am still outgoing ... I am still positive...I am still me....

 

I am less trusting... Less naive..... And much more humble ... Because I believed was above what I became... I thought I was too good to lower Myself to that level...

 

Amazing isn't it what we can become....

[merrmeade]

Damaged souls do damage. It's up to the undamaged ones to shine light AND love on what's important, what makes them and us better.

 

But can't those of us who are damaged shine a light? Can't I be a beacon of hope? Can't i try to help others to not walk the path i have trod? Can't i leave this world a better place than what i found it?

 

Am i to forever walk in darkness? because i am damaged?

 

I am a positive person...and i see good in everyone.....and i try very hard to be compassionate to others.

 

Your husband must have endearing qualities.....or he would never have attracted you in the first place.....

 

Am I so wrong to think that if you concentrated on his beauty instead of the ugly parts....he might try to become better?

 

I know I frustrate you dear mermaid...and i don't mean to....truly i do not.

 

I have read this thread today and emailed back and forth to john who is away.....to discuss with him some of the things here that i don't understand.

 

I am wondering...do Betrayed spouses really expect their way wards to change their personality flaws? or to change who they are?

 

Katielee mentioned way wards turning themselves inside out.....Sometimes it takes a long time for someone to turn themselves inside out....it took me a very long time...but turning oneself inside out..does not change who I am.

 

And all bs have to accept limited growth...because the process is never over. We as individuals continue to grow...and relationships certainly continue to grow.

 

Perhaps we need to evaluate our expectations of our relationship.....in other words...pre affair....was your wayward spouse unable to communicate? Why then would you expect the WS to have suddenly changed to be able to communicate post affair?

 

Remorse does not change the wayward from the person they have always been.....

 

I am still me...I still have the same shortcomings and faults......

 

Can I grow to understand what I have within me that allowed me to make the choice to cheat? Yes...and I can set up the proper perimeters and adhere to them....but I am still who I was. Do we truly expect our wayward spouse to change who they are? Will you as the betrayed change who you are?

 

What is it you want from us?

 

John says i am not the person he thought i was......

 

I an not an evil person...but can I be? You are not an evil person..but can you be? Is evil and the ability to be evil in our nature? I believe it is....can we choose not to be...yes.

But freedom of choice...evil and good...are born into us....is it not?

 

I was a good woman...who made a bad choice. Am I capable of doing it again? Of course I am....but did my experience teach me so that I set myself up to not make a bad choice again? Yes

 

My mind is reeling today...forgive me......I am not sure I am understanding what I think I am hearing....please help me to understand.

 

Not sure my H wants to shine lights or hold himself up as a beacon of hope. I don't think I condemned him or anyone to forever walk in darkness. But we're in our late 60's and he's only just started and with a big chip on his shoulder at that. I'll be rooting the loudest for his progress into the light, but there's not as much time as there used to be and, well, he doesn't want it nearly as much as you did from what I can see. But I'm not stopping him.

 

Yes, you certainly are certainly a positive person and see good in everyone. So do I. My husband is not like that. He finds something to criticize in everyone actually.

 

“Your husband must have endearing qualities.....or he would never have attracted you in the first place.....” Yes, he was absolutely the most gorgeous man I have ever seen in my life. He’s great at creating sexual tension. He will always turn me on. We share the same political views and have pretty much the same artistic and cultural interests and aesthetics.

 

But right now I NEED to NOT ignore his ugly parts for my own recovery. I do not want to rug-sweep or pretend. I am the only witness to most of what he did. He’s more than just a philanderer, but, of course, I want him to try to become better?

 

It’s fair for you to insist that I give him a chance, but-t-t-t-t don’t forget: I was the BS. Do you not really and truly believe that the experience of being betrayed and discovering your partner’s adultery is truly the most destructive experience to every inch of the BS psyche of a a lifetime? If not, you're missing a very, very big point, which I thought you knew very well. What he did damaged ME and, as I pointed out in a recent post, my biological family to some extent. I was a victim and am not as over it and don't have it as together as it may sound. Hell, I'm sitting here spending hours writing about it on LS, for one thing. For example, the fact that I had to go through all that business about my family to me says that I haven't forgiven that aspect.

 

Please don't forget, when you've been hurt, you first have to stand up for yourself and believe that you didn't deserve it. I'm still doing that. Sometimes not as well as others. I still have feelings of worthlessness and profound loss which he is unable to help me with. But let me point out that he was the confidante and supreme listener and adviser for my SIL for 3-1/2 years. He was someone I’ve never known. So maybe we should now talk about how it really was my fault somehow?

 

Point is I'm not that necessarily stronger than he is. I'm still recovering. And the fact that he's spent a lifetime shutting down fears, weaknesses, empathy and just doesn't spend a lot of time worrying about anyone as much as himself means that he's an A+ survivor. He gets over everything. Granted, he had to in order to survive as a child, and that’s sad.

 

How is changing personality flaws different from changing who you are? How are these different? Not sure I'm following this though Katielee's explanation made sense

 

I beg to differ that BSs “have to accept limited growth.” BSs don't HAVE to do anything. They have every right to walk away and find someone else that can love them fully and exclusively.

 

I’ve said I think that my WH has always been unable to communicate. So, no, sadly I do NOT expect my WH to have suddenly changed to be able to communicate post affair. But do you also expect me not to NEED that communication?? Was it, therefore, my obligation not to need it from him? Or something from him. Anything. I've never needed it more in my life! But you’re right. I DO realize it was fruitless hoping that he would rise above his proclivities and give me what I needed. I finally gave up and went to IC for that reason. You're absolutely correct. He never could and so cannot now either. Sartre should have put a couple like us in his No Exit hell.

 

Remorse may “not change the wayward from the person they have always been,” but he has never convinced me of his remorse. He feels deep regret and shame for what he did. But when it comes to saying, showing or doing anything to convince me that he understands how I feel, he has never done that. In fact, he has corroborated my contention that he cannot.

 

Yes, you are a good woman who made a bad choice. But my WH's deepest fear is that he made bad choices BECAUSE he's a bad person. He pretty much made all choices based on trying to prove himself to be, not only a good person, but a better person than other men. He needed to convince himself and others of this and so constantly bent and brok his own rules to gain approval or prove himself better, even insinuating himself into people's families and completely changing his personality, doing things and being ways he'd never done or been so they would see him as a better father/son/husband than their own. He doesn't realize this at all or see the damage he reeked over the years. I only just figured it out myself.

 

I don't think he'll have another affair. I said I want to have a fulfilling life with him in every way possible for us. I forgive all his 'tendencies' and the fallout from a damaged childhood. I accept there's only so much he can do.

 

So I say back to you: Just what is it you want from me? I think the bottom line here is that you are identifying with someone you do not know. I don’t think you can assume everyone is as good and uncomplicated as yourself.

[katielee]

Katielee,

 

And how did you change your personality? And from what to what?

so I want to know what part of your personality did you change and how did you change it? And did you change the things about you that your husband fell in love with? How have you become a better person? Are you still argumentative? Are you still a grudge holder ? What did you improve?

 

See I am still me ...just smarter...wiser... More sympathetic ... More compassionate....less selfish ....less judgmental... More understanding....but am still outgoing ... I am still positive...I am still me....

 

I am less trusting... Less naive..... And much more humble ... Because I believed was above what I became... I thought I was too good to lower Myself to that level...

 

Amazing isn't it what we can become....

 

I've become authentically ME! I am perhaps more argumentative - I wasn't at all before. I am more compassionate to children. I am EXTREMELY giving to everyone, I am not as reactive. I know what I stand for and stick up for myself. I now know most people have gone through crap.

We have to define ourselves by what is important to US - not someone else. Your definition of a good person is probably different than mine.

I'm sure I have changed some of the things my husband loved about me... it's his choice whether to stay with me or not because of that. But I have to be myself, and let go of the outcome. that, to me, is integrity.

[Mrs. John Adams]

 

But right now I NEED to NOT ignore his ugly parts for my own recovery. I do not want to rug-sweep or pretend. I am the only witness to most of what he did. He’s more than just a philanderer, but, of course, I want him to try to become better?

I understand this totally.....i think everyone involved in infidelity has to face the ugly parts...has to acknowledge the ugly parts...especially the wayward...and that is a very hard thing to do...because we don't like what we see.

It’s fair for you to insist that I give him a chance, but-t-t-t-t don’t forget: I was the BS. Do you not really and truly believe that the experience of being betrayed and discovering your partner’s adultery is truly the most destructive experience to every inch of the BS psyche of a a lifetime? I am not insisting you do anything....i simply want to support you in YOUR decision to reconcile if that is what you feel is the right thing to do....I do believe infidelity is the worst thing that can happen to a betrayed...I saw what it did to my husbandIf not, you're missing a very, very big point, which I thought you knew very well. What he did damaged ME and, as I pointed out in a recent post, my biological family to some extent. I was a victim and am not as over it and don't have it as together as it may sound. Hell, I'm sitting here spending hours writing about it on LS, for one thing. For example, the fact that I had to go through all that business about my family to me says that I haven't forgiven that aspect. You are indeed a victim...in many ways for so many reasons and my heart breaks for you and others who have to endure this, I understand he damaged you...i saw what my husband became.....and it was my fault.

 

Please don't forget, when you've been hurt, you first have to stand up for yourself and believe that you didn't deserve it. I'm still doing that. Sometimes not as well as others. I still have feelings of worthlessness and profound loss which he is unable to help me with. But let me point out that he was the confidante and supreme listener and adviser for my SIL for 3-1/2 years. He was someone I’ve never known. So maybe we should now talk about how it really was my fault somehow?Yes...I truly believe a betrayed has every right to take back the power that the wayward removed....i do beleive you have to stand up for yourself and no matter what you did or did not do in the relationship...you did not deserve what he has done to you.

 

How is changing personality flaws different from changing who you are? How are these different? Not sure I'm following this though Katielee's explanation made senseI am convinced we can change behavior...I am not convinced we can change personality.

 

I beg to differ that BSs “have to accept limited growth.” BSs don't HAVE to do anything. They have every right to walk away and find someone else that can love them fully and exclusively.you misunderstood....i don't mean you HAVE to accept it as in you have to stay.....i mean if you are a person in any relationship...healthy or otherwise...we accept that we continue to grow....i am still learning and growing in my remorse....learning and growing as a person.....and at any given time...john can pull the plug and say enough....i cant take it anymore.....i worded it wrong and i apologize

 

I’ve said I think that my WH has always been unable to communicate. So, no, sadly I do NOT expect my WH to have suddenly changed to be able to communicate post affair. But do you also expect me not to NEED that communication?? no absolutely not.....it has always been important...however my point is...i don't see how his having an affair is now going to help him to become a great communicator.....he can make changes...he NEEDS to make changes....but he may never become what you want Was it, therefore, my obligation not to need it from him? Or something from him. Anything. I've never needed it more in my life! But you’re right. I DO realize it was fruitless hoping that he would rise above his proclivities and give me what I needed. I finally gave up and went to IC for that reason. You're absolutely correct. He never could and so cannot now either. Sartre should have put a couple like us in his No Exit hell.and this is the saddest part for me to read.....he was not then and he never will be what you need....or what you deserve....sadly...i get your point

 

Remorse may “not change the wayward from the person they have always been,” but he has never convinced me of his remorse. He feels deep regret and shame for what he did. But when it comes to saying, showing or doing anything to convince me that he understands how I feel, he has never done that. In fact, he has corroborated my contention that he cannot.I also totally understand this....he is not doing his part....but you accept what he is able to give...and that decision is yours and yours alone to make

 

Yes, you are a good woman who made a bad choice. But my WH's deepest fear is that he made bad choices BECAUSE he's a bad person. He pretty much made all choices based on trying to prove himself to be, not only a good person, but a better person than other men. He needed to convince himself and others of this and so constantly bent and brok his own rules to gain approval or prove himself better, even insinuating himself into people's families and completely changing his personality, doing things and being ways he'd never done or been so they would see him as a better father/son/husband than their own. He doesn't realize this at all or see the damage he reeked over the years. I only just figured it out myself. This is deeply sad...that he is such a sad person...i did not say a bad person...a sad one.

 

I don't think he'll have another affair. I said I want to have a fulfilling life with him in every way possible for us. I forgive all his 'tendencies' and the fallout from a damaged childhood. I accept there's only so much he can do.

 

So I say back to you: Just what is it you want from me? I think the bottom line here is that you are identifying with someone you do not know. I don’t think you can assume everyone is as good and uncomplicated as yourself.

 

My dear friend....I do not know you or your husband. I only know what i read...and i do try to see the good even in the midst of destruction and turmoil. I don't profess to understand your situation and i truly care or i would not bother to ask you questions to better understand. I do not identify with your husband....the only thing i see we have in common is that fact that we are both cheaters....and we are both flawed. So if i have offended you i deeply regret it. That was never my intent.

 

I am sorry.

[Mrs. John Adams]

I've become authentically ME! I am perhaps more argumentative - I wasn't at all before. I am more compassionate to children. I am EXTREMELY giving to everyone, I am not as reactive. I know what I stand for and stick up for myself. I now know most people have gone through crap.

We have to define ourselves by what is important to US - not someone else. Your definition of a good person is probably different than mine.

I'm sure I have changed some of the things my husband loved about me... it's his choice whether to stay with me or not because of that. But I have to be myself, and let go of the outcome. that, to me, is integrity.

 

So you were not you all those years you were married pre affair? but now post affair you are authentically you?

[JohnAdams]

I have been following this thread and not really felt I could contribute a lot to the already thought provoking dialogue. But, finally, felt I could chime in with my opinion.

 

 

I think our basic personalities are basically baked in long before we are adults. We may change some as we age, especially if the preference for one characteristic is not overly strong, but we are not going to alter our primary personality preferences. On the other hand, we can definitely alter our behavior. A felon can be reformed. An adulterer can be reformed.

 

 

The question then is does the person who committed the transgression seek to repent for their actions? An adulterer can change their behavior and repent, this does not change their personality or who they fundamentality are but they can now see their flaws and do the work to correct them and make sure those actions are not repeated.

 

 

If a person truly repents and asks for forgiveness from the person that they have hurt, it is all they can do. They cannot change the past.

 

 

The trouble is, repentance is very difficult for the vain. Those that find excuses or weaknesses for what they have done.

 

 

I must admit, I may not be strong enough to forgive the things that your husband has done. You are a strong woman, I wish you the best.

[katielee]

So you were not you all those years you were married pre affair? but now post affair you are authentically you?

 

Much more so yes. I just did what other ppl wanted me to. Was who they wanted me to be. Or who I thought I should be.

 

I know you and MrJA snd I might not ever agree that personalities change but I think when some ppl go through things they change. My husband has told me repeatedly that've what i did changed his personality.

Edited November 11, 2015 by katielee

[Mrs. John Adams]

Much more so yes. I just did what other ppl wanted me to. Was who they wanted me to be. Or who I thought I should be.

 

I know you and MrJA snd I might not ever agree that personalities change but I think when some ppl go through things they change. My husband has told me repeatedly that've what i did changed his personality.

 

and john says what i did changed the person he was as well....but it did not change his personality...it changed his perspective. It changed how he approached life. It changed his outlook on life.

 

Personality is who you are... behavior is how you act. You can change your behavior but not who you are. John is shy by nature and is not a flirt...but because of my affair and the destruction it caused him...he became more aggressive to prove a point to me and even to himself. He was still shy...and he always will be....but he forced himself to behave differently.He says he hated the way he behaved.

 

Just like you say you behaved the way people thought you should...but it really was not who you were. So you behaved in a way to make others happy...but you were not happy within yourself. Your personality did not change...you have changed your behavior.

 

when I had my affair...john did not recognize who i was.....because i was behaving differently than i ever had....though my personality was still me.

[merrmeade]

My dear friend....I do not know you or your husband. I only know what i read...and i do try to see the good even in the midst of destruction and turmoil. I don't profess to understand your situation and i truly care or i would not bother to ask you questions to better understand. I do not identify with your husband....the only thing i see we have in common is that fact that we are both cheaters....and we are both flawed. So if i have offended you i deeply regret it. That was never my intent.

 

I am sorry.

First, my previous response was a bit messy after rewriting when my post wouldn't submit. (I'd embedded comments in your post, but the auto-response kept rejecting my 1,530-word message as too short. ) But I'm trying again. I want to get it right.

 

You try to reach so many with your phenomenal all-embracing, open spirit, but not every WS can be as self-reflective, articulate, AND lacking in vanity - as John just called it. I do envy your husband, but I'm realistic. And that was exactly my point: YOU, my dear, are in a class altogether, a class unknown to my WH, and I will get my dander up if he's offered a free pass into your elite club. He has not even pretended to want, much less made an effort to embrace your kind of work and remorse. Until he turns that corner, he does not deserve the benefit of your kind benefit of the doubt. Kindness, yes, but not assumptions about his sincerity, remorse or personal ideals.

 

[i've edited this paragraph about five times now as I realize he IS changing...]

I'm pretty sure he would agree with me, that he would not identify with your attitude, approach or declarations, even ridicule the superlatives and emotional vocabulary. But maybe it's a contradiction like everything else. He sees vulnerability, conscious or otherwise, as a weakness. As recently as even a few months ago he would smirk when he asked me if I was on Loveshack and chortle. On the other hand, he's said once or twice he admired my ability to articulate my feelings (you could've knocked me over with a feather). Tough talk, vulnerable heart.

 

Obviously you meant well with every fiber of your being. You didn't do anything wrong. Just the opposite. Nor was I accusing you of doing anything less than helping, being positive and encouraging, but there were assumptions that just don't wash in every case. I agree that everyone deserves encouragement for genuine effort to share and support, and I try to do that. He is trying to earn it. I do believe that.

Edited November 11, 2015 by merrmeade