Digging up old records, new questions.

[merrmeade]

The line between the negative usage of excuse and the word reason is not fine at all. The problem is people are often extreme and blind to it. They are so afraid of lessening blame or whatever that they throw out reasons.

 

Excuses either lesson or pardon actions. Where I work we get strikes against us for being late. All sorts of excuses for being so are dismissed. They may very well a valid and true reason i.e. Bad road conditions but they don't excuse the lateness because one could have left earlier. However, if a person is late because an accident happened and the road closed the lateness will be excused. The former is still a true a reason for being late but with another reason attatched-you should have noted the road conditions and left earlier, the latter is a valid excuse

 

People all have affairs for reasons. Sometimes more than one. And yes you could boil it down to selfishness, but really, so can many, many actions. Just because reasons are given doesn't mean they are excuses. And yes, sometimes people make up reasons and try to use them as excuses.

 

There is no excuse for cheating. Whether the reason a person chose to cheat was because they were denied sex to they were cheated on themselves. Those are real reasons that happen and have lead to cheating. But they don't excuse the cheating. And they are coupled with things like poor boundaries, foo, poor coping skills, ect.

 

The reason I chose to cheat the first time was because I was depressed, in denial about it and stuck in my own self absorbed state, I am I am inherently attracted to the deviance of cheating and at the same time repulsed by it. I felt ugly and that my H no longer wanted to have sex with me. I have a high sex drive that is not satisfied by self pleasuring. (Sorry, tmi). I was sexual curious but inexperienced. I was not fully honest with myself being in a sexless marriage and therefore did not communicate fully with my husband and so forth.

 

None of the reasons in anyway made what I did any less terrible than it was. They don't take any blame off me. I was and still am 100% responsible for my actions. And nothing I have said changes that. But people who so fear excuses just see that. Their emotions and bias get in the way of logic. And that is that you can have reasons that do not excuse an action.

 

I am sorry if I repeated myself. It was a long night.

God, Noirek, you always blow me away with your unwavering adherence to logic. It's so good for all of us. I wish you'd weigh in more often because I am part of the effusive but vague vocabulary group, and your nuts and bolts what-does-it-mean-exactly type input provides an essential counterpoint.

 

That said, I'm always struck by your ability to shine an unfiltered spotlight on your own actions and motivations. I've never read another WS poster with the same adherence to precise reporting and truth. It's just who you are, I assume, but it is the exact opposite of the WS profile, which is also why - imho - I think you suffered so much. To be a cheater, the rationalization and distortion of reality are essential to survive and continue. If you don't do that, then you admit to consciously doing something you considered wrong, bad and harmful.

 

So I'm not surprised that you have explored this no man's land of excuses vs reasons at all. You couldn't be any other way; it's just how you think and are. But I wonder how it helps you - carefully labeling this thought an excuse and that action a reason. You have also carefully identified all the elements at play in your decision to cheat. Do they become reasons when you understand them as true, functional and irresistible? Are they excuses only if there's emotion and illogic tied to their expression—e.g., he wouldn't have sex with me, grr, so what other choice did I have (or something like that)?

 

My WH has to offer up the "extenuating circumstances" every time we discuss the last A. In fact, I think the degree to which there were such "circumstances" or not is inextricably tied to how much shame and blame he gives himself for each A. The one he had with his brother's wife (before they met) seems to be the one he hates himself for the most although he still tried to cast himself as a victim to her aggressive advances. It was only credible that he believed it a little because it was too absurd to consider, much less say, otherwise.

 

I really get more from you about how it all works than from anyone I think. And the dry analysis is important and exactly why it's helpful. I remember that about 6 mos after d-Day, my H emailed me (I was away) a sort of explanation. It totally hit me in the solar plexus and tormented me for months. I sent it back to him torn apart, sentence by sentence, for the utter objectivity and disturbing (to me at the time) truth of it. That things he so easily dropped lines like — "It was propinquity and nothing more" and "I've never compared you to anyone," "He's such a trickster that ego fellow." — were a whole new level of abuse to me at the time. But not now. Now, I realize it was no more nor less than the truth. It's exactly what happened. No more nor less. In a way I'm sorry that my hysterical reaction resulted in shutting down discussion or changing it for the next 2-1/2 years. Now, we're able to discuss the facts, but now I also don't need them. I've figured it out - all the whys, hows and when - and don't need his input.

 

So I'm helped to see how hard it must be for him when I read your posts like this one. It's pretty clear to me that he's been fairly clear about what he's done and what it means all along. I'm confident there were never any ILYs with any of them and the EA aspect was tied up with the sex. He even called it an addiction once but hasn't been able to bring it up again. It's clear he does not feel safe with me.

 

Anyway, thanks.

[merrmeade]

As to the topic, I value being in a relationship where no topic is off bounds. I think the very fact I couldn't say something was bugging me because of fear of reaction would bother me. But I don't know that for sure and I don't believe my values in a relationship or necessarily the next person's or even the "right" way. And I can see how the sex toy was overlooked or forgotten or not deemed important enough to be mentioned. So I can see why bringing it up would seem unnecessary as it doesn't change what is known.

Thanks. I'm really glad you 'get' this and confirmed by saying it back just how it affected me.

 

What I would do? I would probably let it eat at me or in the very least keep coming back to my mind. And then I would probably say something. I would say how I felt the need to go over past financial purchases to work through some stuff. I came across the sex toy purchase. It surprised me or whatever but then I was concerned mentioning it would set you in a shame spiral. It got me thinking a lot about how I hate not being able to talk about this for fear of your reaction. And I would hopefully say all this with no expectations. Just to unburden me.

Which is exactly what I did. EXCEPT. It's not so easy to stay in that "no expectations" place. I just couldn't walk away without his saying SOMEthing, anything. But I should have because whatever he says about these things is always unsatisfactory, which means, of course, I have expectations, hopes that this time he'll say what I need to hear.

 

However, this talk would be based on my personal need to share everything. Its not neccesarily how you, OP or the next person sees things. Or sorts through things. I just know for me [his] not [being] able to talk about it would be what would eat at me, were I in your shoes. More so than the actual subject. But like I said, I see also giving up the need as the discovery does not change the whole picture. And there are times letting go can be a better choice.

Yep, you got it, Noirek. That's me and that was how it went down. I think I needed to go through with it just to see what we, each of us, would do. I saw and don't think it will change appreciably ever. So now I know and will choose based on this outcome next time.

[merrmeade]

Oh dear, I just reread the next to last post and hope it wasn't presumptuous. It's one thing for you to be so straightforward with your analysis, but I should have tempered my enthusiasm a lot more.

 

I apologize if it came across as unfeeling. I DO know you've suffered, and you're one of a handful of WSs I feel safe with for your honesty. I'm very sorry if I made you feel unsafe with any glib or heavy-handed descriptions, now or in the past. I value your input was the main point, but I might have said so clumsily.

 

Excuse or reason? Excuse.

[Noirek]

Oh dear, I just reread the next to last post and hope it wasn't presumptuous. It's one thing for you to be so straightforward with your analysis, but I should have tempered my enthusiasm a lot more.

 

I apologize if it came across as unfeeling. I DO know you've suffered, and you're one of a handful of WSs I feel safe with for your honesty. I'm very sorry if I made you feel unsafe with any glib or heavy-handed descriptions, now or in the past. I value your input was the main point, but I might have said so clumsily.

 

Excuse or reason? Excuse.

 

I did not feel unsafe. Your replies didn't bother me at all. I'm thankful I can offer insight. I know I am not the same person as your husband. I (as you can tell) suffer from over thinking. I cannot just "forget" things which I know many waywards can. Or at least try too but who knows really.

 

I think if you take a step back you can see if the reason is being used as an excuse. As silly as it is you can use some parenting technics. For example in the case of me feeling unwanted by my husband his reply was "I'm sorry you felt unwanted by me. I do and have always wanted you. I wish you would have told me this." (This was a discussion we had recently as I was working through my relapse with MM not a fresh dday.). It may not seem anything big but he didn't say "I'm sorry I made you feel unwanted." Because in actual fact it was my misinterpation of the situation. Its probably semantics but it shows to me that he doesn't see it as blame shifting. And as his words didn't bother me I didn't see it as such.

 

I'm having a hard time explaining this but here is a big thing to note in a reason given by a wayward. Even if you acknowledge that their feelings and motives at the time were as they say it to you does not lessen the blame. So if they give the attitude of wanting to share the blame or give up blame or out right minimize it. Yes, I get that you felt lonely and vunerable. I am sad (if sorry seems like you taking responsibility in usage here) you felt that way. But what you did was wrong and hurtful. We always have so many other choices to make.

 

And angry deflective person will probably not heed the words but I feel it is still a better choice than telling someone their feelings behind an action were invalid. If that makes sense. And maybe it doesn't matter at all. I just know on here I have been and read many waywards steamrolled and gagged and their feelings invalidated. And I know with them that doesn't help. And when someone is self absorbed to the extend some waywards are I can't imagine it feels helpful to validate their feelings.

 

As to made up excuses that don't ring true. For instance if a wayward complains that the betrayed ignored them when in fact the opposite is more likely true. I think it can also work. I am sorry/sad you felt that way. We did so much together and we could have done more if you had spoken to me.

 

I get that nothing every goes down as smoothly as we plan. Our emotions and own feelings come in to play. Not many freshly betrayed spouse who have been blindsided are going to be able to do the above or work through things while in so much pain. I mean as much as I hate It I do get why people wanting their pain to not be invalidated compare it or even say it is worse than losing a child (i knew a woman who was cheated on and lost her 13 year old daughter in a roll over, actually held her broken body, and I can say for her the latter did not make being cheated on less painful but it did outweigh it.) But when some time is put in. Or for speaking to other waywards not your own, i think it can be hugely Beneficial.

 

Wh