He moved out

[annawulf]

He really did. My kids and I went to visit in his new home (they had met him once before, as a friend/ex-colleague of mine). I can 100% see an exciting future for us, though neither of us wants marriage/cohabitation/owning each other relationship, certainly not for the next while - he needs to live on his own (with his kids part time) and I love living on my own (with my kids part time) and my independence too much. Still, we have a lot of love and respect (! - even after all...) for each other and completely relish each other's company.

 

PA was from 4 years ago to 2 years ago, we never managed to go NC for long, but barely saw each other the last 2 years. His W still wants him back, asks to sleep with him, asks him to stay over etc. He still does lots for them because he feels guilty about leaving. She has said she will go NC with him if he has any contact with me (she knows we're in contact but not that we are sleeping together, which resumed when he moved out). He says he needs to tell her that he's choosing to be with me, though I'm not the sole reason for the breakup, and I kind of agree, but I'm also nervous of the fallout for him/the kids (she seems to use them as leverage a bit). It is of course entirely her prerogative to blame me, I understand why she would, but I also think it's symptomatic of clinging to hope (she doesn't want to admit his responsibility so she can still imagine getting back together and staying together). I think him telling her he won't accede to her ultimatum is really the only way she's going to accept they're over, though. From my point of view, I know in one way he doesn't want to deliver the final blow but I'm not sure how much that's for her (as he says) and how much is for him (he wants her still to want/need him and isn't quite ready to let go of that).

 

I guess I'm just after tips for staying reasonable/stable/being as helpful as possible to everyone amidst the upheaval and devastation. I haven't interacted directly with his W, although she emailed once last year (threat/entreaty to stay away). I don't want to be his counsellor and/or too involved in the day-to-day of his relationship with her, as it's none of my business, but obviously I'd want to know if he thought they were going to get back together (I'm confident he doesn't want to but I know he feels the pressure/guilt intensely). I feel pretty OK and my life is great with or without him, but obviously I care a lot and I want to be cautious with how much I let myself hope.

 

Thanks for reading.

[Survivor12]

Put on your seatbelt, you're in for a rough ride.

 

Even in the best case scenario, it won't be easy, and he's fooling himself if he thinks that it is possible to effectively co-parent without having contact with his wife.

 

Are you willing to put your own kids through the turmoil, instability and emotional upheaval? It may seem easy to keep it hidden from them but kids are extremely receptive to changes in the mood of those surrounding them. They will overhear things, they will sense your emotions and they will ask questions.

 

And, finally, I must warn you that once he is divorced and gets a taste of his independence, he may find that he is not ready to give it up too quickly. You may be waiting for a long time before you have the life with him that you are hoping for.

 

My exH didn't cheat but became involved with someone after he learned that I had someone special in my life (we'd been separated for three years & were in the process of finalizing the divorce). That was nearly 10 years ago--and she's still waiting for him to "be ready".

 

My best advice is to not be too eager to fully commit until the dust has settled on their divorce. This is just the beginning...

[annawulf]

No, he doesn't think he can co-parent effectively with NC! I guess he thinks he'll be calling her bluff on the ultimatum (as do I). He wanted to give her time and compassion but it seems she views every kindness as a sign they'll get back together. I don't think he's being clear enough that he doesn't want to - I'm not 100% sure why this is.

 

I am not looking to be his wife or in any kind of very traditional relationship - it's not a priority for me, I don't really get the reverence for coupledom in general. I would like (I think? I'm open to other ideas) us to be monogamous, to be confident each time I see him that it'll happen again soon, to NOT BE A GUILTY SECRET; but my kids come first and I have a great job and a very active social life and I wouldn't want to deprioritise any of those for anyone, almost least of all him (I'm pretty guarded and sceptical of romance and romantic ideals now!). I feel like I got to a great place with him on the outskirts of my life and if he wants to come further in then great but if not life goes on. I didn't make him any promises and his breakup isn't contingent on anything happening with me. I'm not feeling the urge to do anything to try and prevent them getting back together - if that's what he wants it's what he'll do.

 

Having said all that, it was really beautiful to be invited and welcomed into his home, and have him make us all lunch and really engage with my kids (again, as a friend - they spend lots of time with lots of the wonderful people I choose to be friends with). I feel like my guard is set at a sensible level - not a complete wall of emotional prohibition, but I feel safe and not too dependent on any outcome.

 

I know a couple of years ago I would have loved to hear of an A where the MM left his wife after four years, because all the 'stats' seemed against the chance of us ever having a legit relationship at that point. I'm in such a different place, though, now, in terms of dependence (not in terms of strength of feeling and/or desire, I might add - they're still like the first time, if not more intense) and I can't help but wonder if that's part of the shift as well as him having to move such a long way from his programmed ideas of what his life ought to be.

[Ms. Faust]

He could check out the Men's Divorce forums for legal strategies if he is in the U.S. A warning: the men in that forum hate, hate, hate cheaters, so if he posts it is best to leave that tidbit out.

 

They would also probably advise to move back in, because moving out of the marital home is usually a bad idea.

 

Good luck, it won't be fun. Hope your relationship survives.

[annawulf]

From an assets point of view of an access to kids point of view? He is fine to give her the house, he says the financial settlement is easy as he won't take much/anything (I believe this, he's totally non-materialistic but not foolish, his family is pretty wealthy, as is hers; he is a reasonable earner, she earns but negligible). I am totally financially independent (just got divorced, paid out a load to XH as have been high earner in the past) and would NEVER combine financial assets with anyone else anyway! Neither of us is a fancy cars/holidays type.

 

Access to kids less clear, I think he would sacrifice time with them out of guilt which obviously I would discourage, they must always come first (my dad remarried a cow with no kids who always needed to be prioritised over us and actively sabotaged our relationships with him!). Two of the kids are almost adult but one is pre-teen and still lives full-time at home (currently shared custody but pretty ad hoc as she won't discuss arrangements).

[annawulf]

When I say 'sacrifice time with them out of guilt' I mean not stand up to her if e.g. she refuses access. Obviously I am in no position to judge and I don't have an objective report or viewpoint (and he doesn't badmouth her at all) but some of the stuff she has done/said seems to be pretty manipulative (e.g telling the kids about the A out of spite when he wasn't there, saying horrible stuff about him/me to the kids repeatedly) and not necessarily putting the kids/anyone else at the top of the agenda.

[purplesorrow]

I think your red flag is him not being ready to let go of her needing and wanting him. If he wants you, what's his struggle with her?

[annawulf]

I agree! That's why I'll be interested to see if he does tell her about me - the difficulty is that being the only way of distancing. It feels like a high-risk strategy for him! He recognises the pull towards the status quo - he's deep in therapy after a terribly traumatic childhood. I guess ideally we should have waited 6 months/a year before getting together. I don't want him to be using me as an emotional bandaid/bridge/anaesthetic.

[Ms. Faust]

From an assets point of view of an access to kids point of view? He is fine to give her the house, he says the financial settlement is easy as he won't take much/anything (I believe this, he's totally non-materialistic but not foolish, his family is pretty wealthy, as is hers; he is a reasonable earner, she earns but negligible). I am totally financially independent (just got divorced, paid out a load to XH as have been high earner in the past) and would NEVER combine financial assets with anyone else anyway! Neither of us is a fancy cars/holidays type.

 

Access to kids less clear, I think he would sacrifice time with them out of guilt which obviously I would discourage, they must always come first (my dad remarried a cow with no kids who always needed to be prioritised over us and actively sabotaged our relationships with him!). Two of the kids are almost adult but one is pre-teen and still lives full-time at home (currently shared custody but pretty ad hoc as she won't discuss arrangements).

 

Well both, but mainly kids. His moving out establishes the status quo, and while many states are going 50/50 she can easy do sole physical/ legal because... Well, he moved out of his children's residence. If he is wanting fair access to his kids it is not prudent to move out of their home and leave the mother as the sole provider.

 

It also establishes more of a financial obligation, especially if she makes less than him or is a SAHM. It is great that he is willing to give her the house, has he also figured up what child support and possible alimony will be? There are tons of online calculators. That is also not including investments, QDRO, taxes, automobiles, etc etc etc.

 

I hope his family is willing to assist in his legal fees, especially if it turns into a acrimonious divorce. He also might not want to let his guilt on leaving dictate what he allows in the divorce.

 

He should probably do some serious research and start interviewing lawyers so he knows what to expect.

[annawulf]

That's a really good point, especially to someone who probably let their guilt on leaving influence their divorce (he got way more than the only lawyer I saw suggested - I didn't like the way having lawyers immediately framed us as adversaries, as we're very amicable, but I guess when you're dividing anything between you that is in a technical sense accurate). Not my place to bring it up, though… I really don't feel it's any of my business.

[annawulf]

on the residence, he's probably had 40% since he moved out and his daughter has a bedroom at his place, but I doubt he's keeping a record of it. She's old enough to account for it, though.

[Ms. Faust]

on the residence, he's probably had 40% since he moved out and his daughter has a bedroom at his place, but I doubt he's keeping a record of it. She's old enough to account for it, though.

 

He should. If his serious about divorce and doesn't want to get screwed he should be journaling everything. But, I guess the best you could do is let him do his thing. Seriously, though, I hope for you sake it doesn't turn into a fugly divorce. Once the wife snaps out of her "Pick Me" Dance she may not be so nice.

 

Sorry for grammar and spelling, on my phone.

[Cloudcuckoo]

From an assets point of view of an access to kids point of view? He is fine to give her the house, he says the financial settlement is easy as he won't take much/anything (I believe this, he's totally non-materialistic but not foolish, his family is pretty wealthy, as is hers; he is a reasonable earner, she earns but negligible). I am totally financially independent (just got divorced, paid out a load to XH as have been high earner in the past) and would NEVER combine financial assets with anyone else anyway! Neither of us is a fancy cars/holidays type.

 

Access to kids less clear, I think he would sacrifice time with them out of guilt which obviously I would discourage, they must always come first (my dad remarried a cow with no kids who always needed to be prioritised over us and actively sabotaged our relationships with him!). Two of the kids are almost adult but one is pre-teen and still lives full-time at home (currently shared custody but pretty ad hoc as she won't discuss arrangements).

 

I am getting the idea that you are a sensible, cautious and responsible parent, and some of those qualities are spilling over into your relationship with this married man. All very encouraging for you and he in the long run, but.....

 

In regard his wife, I would employ caution, a measure of sensitivity, and diplomatic silence in all matters relating to her.

 

After all, whatever her thinking, her circumstances have dramatically changed, particularly as a result of her husbands infidelity. She may well be at her wits end. Not a nice place for anyone to be, and whether you like it or not, you are a part of her demise unfortunately.

 

Temper your responses to what you see as her anger and desire to inflict hurt on you. Keep in mind that she has no control over the situation and is likely clinging by her fingernails to her own sanity. Infidelity drives people to the very brink of it.

 

She's a woman with children she wants to protect too, even though at times her actions might appear to the contrary.

 

If all efforts fail, remove yourself entirely from anything to do with her, her husband and the fallout from his treachery until the dust really settles.

 

Then, hopefully, you will be able to develop a healthy relationship in all quarters for all of you with time and a sympathetic approach.

 

Good luck to all of you. Not an easy place to be.

 

Cuckoo

[purplesorrow]

I agree! That's why I'll be interested to see if he does tell her about me - the difficulty is that being the only way of distancing. It feels like a high-risk strategy for him! He recognises the pull towards the status quo - he's deep in therapy after a terribly traumatic childhood. I guess ideally we should have waited 6 months/a year before getting together. I don't want him to be using me as an emotional bandaid/bridge/anaesthetic.

 

It really sounds like he moved out without being totally honest. His actions do appear to encourage her so she is still wanting their marriage. Him being unable to let go only fuels that. If he actually told her he didn't want her and moved out because he wants a divorce, why does he now need to say he'll be with you? He's making you a scape goat.

[Ms. Faust]

I just reread the post and saw he wants to tell his wife about you.

 

Wow.

 

Is he trying to make his divorce worse than what it will be?

[annawulf]

You're right, of course - if I really want to be compassionate to her I have to put my money where my mouth is and stay away, for now. Much as I want to help him/see him it's probably best he gets help from elsewhere. I do understand that about her, I understand all her actions are coming from a desperate place, and that's why e.g. I never responded to her email. I also understand a lot of this is down to his actions and vacillations and his trying to let her down gently.

 

I feel conflicted - on the one hand, it feels like if he wanted to be compassionate to her he should not be in contact with me; BUT at the same time he has left and she needs to see/come to terms with the fact she can't control him any more, doesn't she? She doesn't seem to care about what he wants at all, and I get that from the email she sent me which was VERY long, very vicious (again, I understand that!) and all 'I, I, I, I, I'.

 

Thanks everyone, I feel much less muddled than I expected to but it's still a very high emotional octane situation! Really appreciate your kindness and thought in the responses.

[annawulf]

he originally told her about me a long time ago, kind of 'I had an affair, I think we should split up'. From her POV the entire breakup is down to me (he says, and I believe him, that it's a symptom not a cause), so she has prohibited him from seeing me using contact with her as a lever (i.e. she won't speak to him if he sees me). He thinks he needs to tell her as otherwise she'll keep thinking they're going to get back together. IDK - I feel like there must be a better way of being honest with her about the chances but maybe I have a vested interest as I'd rather not be implicated again. Part of his 'journey' is trying to be honest/authentic with himself and others about everything, as he feels being a people-pleaser and suppressing his true feelings is what got him into this mess (marrying her then having an affair).

[minimariah]

best of luck with everything, hopefully things will work out for everyone involved.

[Ms. Faust]

You're right, of course - if I really want to be compassionate to her I have to put my money where my mouth is and stay away, for now. Much as I want to help him/see him it's probably best he gets help from elsewhere. I do understand that about her, I understand all her actions are coming from a desperate place, and that's why e.g. I never responded to her email. I also understand a lot of this is down to his actions and vacillations and his trying to let her down gently.

 

I feel conflicted - on the one hand, it feels like if he wanted to be compassionate to her he should not be in contact with me; BUT at the same time he has left and she needs to see/come to terms with the fact she can't control him any more, doesn't she? She doesn't seem to care about what he wants at all, and I get that from the email she sent me which was VERY long, very vicious (again, I understand that!) and all 'I, I, I, I, I'.

 

Thanks everyone, I feel much less muddled than I expected to but it's still a very high emotional octane situation! Really appreciate your kindness and thought in the responses.

 

I would lay off of her character. You are invested with him, and are naturally biased. You can say all day long "well, even if we weren't in a relationship this is how I would feel" or "I witnessed this" it doesn't matter,it is moot.

 

If you choose to stick with him through the divorce process you need to take the emotions out of the game. Divorce should be treated as a business affair, and I believe this is where things get so bitter with all the back and forths and the screwing over is because people become so emotionally invested in it.

 

If he is serious about divorce, truly serious:

 

He would need to start journaling.

Start lawyering up.

Ramp up the 40% time with his daughter to 50%. Now is his time to shine as Super dad, not Disney Dad.

Do the research and come up with something fair and equitable for his wife and child that she is currently the sole caretaker of. This goes beyond giving her the house. This is all assets and debts.

Don't tell her about you. That's all nice and sweet that *now* he wants to be honorable and truthful, but now is not the appropriate time. If she is anything like what you described you know she is not going to go down without a fight. One wants to make divorce easier, not harder.

 

Just from what you described I don't see his wife making divorce easy, and your MM sounds like the type who will roll over and show his belly. He's gonna get hosed if he doesn't wise up and start being proactive. Next thing you know he'll be one of those people saying "the courts favor the mothers" when in actuality he made stupid decisions and did not do his due diligence.

 

I would also strongly recommend that unless you are prepared for the roller coaster divorce you should step away from the relationship for the time being and stop sleeping with him.

 

A good lawyer will also tell him to back away from relationships.

This is not the time for him to be with you.

 

Just my half pence.

Edited November 2, 2015 by Ms. Faust

[Got it]

Having been in a similar scenario, there are different ways to handle things. I would suggest he get legal counsel on the best course of legal action and see an IC for personal direction. Whether or not you two date is up to what his professional counsel and what you two decide to do. The state he is in may factor in as well.

 

We went through the divorce process and have now married.

[Popsicle]

He just moved his air traffic controllers station outside of the terminal where it will be easier to direct the traffic, but I think he wants to keep two women on the hook in some capacity.

 

I foresee this being an ongoing problem for you.

 

Has he filed for divorce?

[Ms. Faust]

Having been in a similar scenario, there are different ways to handle things. I would suggest he get legal counsel on the best course of legal action and see an IC for personal direction. Whether or not you two date is up to what his professional counsel and what you two decide to do. The state he is in may factor in as well.

 

We went through the divorce process and have now married.

 

My ex husband was my MM, I was with him through the divorce. He got royally screwed in his because of guilt. Our divorce was easier, neither of us came out winners.

 

12 years wasted for both of us...

[S2B]

I agree! That's why I'll be interested to see if he does tell her about me - the difficulty is that being the only way of distancing. It feels like a high-risk strategy for him! He recognises the pull towards the status quo - he's deep in therapy after a terribly traumatic childhood. I guess ideally we should have waited 6 months/a year before getting together. I don't want him to be using me as an emotional bandaid/bridge/anaesthetic.

 

Yet he is using you as his comfort, right?

 

Why not wait? Wait until his divorce is final and he's finished with all this manipulation.

 

Has he even filed for divorce yet? It's risky being involved with him through this process because he could potentially go back at any time - leaving you with hurt and broken expectations.

 

 

If it were me, and I knew I'd already waited years, I'd wait longer now until the D was final. That way he could ask for what he wants without guilt and prioritize his kids.

 

His advice should really come from his lawyer. If he hasn't filed, then there's no reason yet to think he's divorcing, it's just idle chatter.

 

You could get hurt.

 

 

I'd create distance - this storm is likely to be ugly for a long while and you don't need to be in the middle of it.

 

Let him finish that relationship first before seeing him again.

 

Can be strong that way?

[Goodbye]

The parenting schedule shouldn't be "ad hoc" if both parents are custodial; which appears to be the case. Has he filed for divorce? Does he intend to do so? It was unclear in your original post. If so, the court will either have your lawyers figure out a clear schedule of parenting time if you cannot...if the lawyers cannot hash it out, a guardian ad litem may be appointed...depends on state.

 

He should be honest with his W about you, especially if you will be around their kids in ANY way. It is in my court ordered parenting plan that I am (as is the reverse) to discuss with my exH prior to introducing my children to any "significant others." This is to prevent the confusion that comes from casual encounters with parent's bf's/gf's. As a mom, I would recommend that you not have your kids around him either (not my business, I know) until you KNOW he is a keeper. Why do that to them?

 

It's not clear to me that things aren't over with his wife.

[Shadowburn]

I remember your thread from the last year, your pain was palpable and it was so obvious that you and your then AP were not equally invested in your relationship - you were separated and he was still "figuring" himself out, NC sure looked like the best option for you.

 

I wish you best of luck, you maybe one of the very rare cases on these boards who actually ended up with the one they loved so much. Please be very cautious, you seem to be in such a better place now, don't let him mess you up - until divorce papers are signed, there is no guarantee he won't reconcile with his wife.