VOWS: What should a new couple promise, discuss to beware of infidelity?

[merrmeade]

My son's getting married in April. They have a 6-month-old already and very supportive relationship. Her parents have been married to each other only and are in their 60's. Both 'kids' (in their 30's) know about my H's infidelity with my son's aunt (but not about his past affairs). My son was cheated on in college and devastated by the experience.

 

My DIL and I briefly discussed what they might do for vows. They clearly haven't thought about it much.

 

So what would you suggest they read or talk about? How would you help a young couple starting out think about what they're actually going to need/expect from each other in terms of commitment and why? Where would you recommend they look for inspiration?

 

I know that my father, a pastor, sat us down before marrying and did what he usually did in that position with young couples. We used text from Kahlil Gibran's "The Prophet," but my father threw in the traditional vows at the last minute. Obviously it didn't sink in with my husband. Sadly, we weren't taking it seriously possibly in reaction to the religious overtones (young rebels). My kids are not religious and are averse to anything associated.

 

I know there must be a better way. I'm emphasizing this IN THE CONTEXT OF INFIDELITY because that is the failure side after vows have been broken. How should about-to-be newly weds plan - both in general and specifically identifying pitfalls - in order to avoid those first thoughts that enable the next and the next and the next step to unfaithfulness.

 

Is there any advantage to having a pre-nup? My son's a lawyer and could write something up though they'd have to be convinced it's a good idea.

 

I'm not delusional or think that the perfect vows will prevent infidelity, and I'm sure that my experience made them think A LOT. All the more reason why they need to know and say what they want and expect of themselves and each other, so they WON'T have my experience.

Edited November 16, 2015 by merrmeade

[ladydesigner]

Have them both read "Not Just Friends" by Shirley Glass.

 

I feel this book really sums up how an A starts and can happen.

[katielee]

I think there should be a commitment to honesty. It's so important. Not even fidelity - but honesty. If you can't be honest with your best friend, who should be your spouse - then what really, do you have? Even if the truth is, "I may be attracted to someone else" or "I may have a drinking problem." That puts the problem in the realm of the couple as a solvable issue. Because people always think they can handle things themselves. Until they can't.

it also involves listening to honesty - "I'm scared," "I'm fearful" etc... when the other spouse hears that - you know it's time for some compassion, time devoted to the marriage/other spouse, work to be done, etc.

Be ready to hear the honesty. Be ready to be uncomfortable. Truth telling and listening is uncomfortable. But with that, you're putting trust in the other person. I can't think of a better gift.

[lgspot]

Ah mermaid,

Good choice on your vows. I've loved Gibrand's wisdom and the "The Prophet."

 

Been my experience though, that vows, legal documents, or words on paper don't mean anything to someone who's going to cheat.

I think all you can do is offer your experience and wisdom. Wisdom you are blessed with.

Stress communication and honesty.

 

Sometimes the best advice is just to say "do what I say (suggest), not what we did....."

[merrmeade]

I think there should be a commitment to honesty. It's so important. Not even fidelity - but honesty. If you can't be honest with your best friend, who should be your spouse - then what really, do you have? Even if the truth is, "I may be attracted to someone else" or "I may have a drinking problem." That puts the problem in the realm of the couple as a solvable issue. Because people always think they can handle things themselves. Until they can't.

it also involves listening to honesty - "I'm scared," "I'm fearful" etc... when the other spouse hears that - you know it's time for some compassion, time devoted to the marriage/other spouse, work to be done, etc.

Be ready to hear the honesty. Be ready to be uncomfortable. Truth telling and listening is uncomfortable. But with that, you're putting trust in the other person. I can't think of a better gift.

That's really beautiful, kl, and very much speaks to the heart of communication. The basics. I would add: If you're both authentic, non-judgmental, you're halfway there.

 

I want to stress that they have not asked me for this and I doubt I'll offer it otherwise.

 

More reading material perhaps?

[MuddyFootprints]

At this point, they aren't thinking about infidelity in their own marriage. Support them in love and in conflict. Don't let the infidelity of your marriage infiltrate theirs.

 

They know what you've been through as a couple and I'm sure it's been discussed between the two of them.

 

I like Gibran. Are they readers of poetry? I'd include The Prophet with their gift. It's beautiful.

 

No psych books, though. ugh.

[merrmeade]

At this point, they aren't thinking about infidelity in their own marriage. Support them in love and in conflict. Don't let the infidelity of your marriage infiltrate theirs.

 

They know what you've been through as a couple and I'm sure it's been discussed between the two of them.

 

I like Gibran. Are they readers of poetry? I'd include The Prophet with their gift. It's beautiful.

 

No psych books, though. ugh.

Good grief, I know that. Of course, I'm not going to talk about his father's infidelity. Gross. That was never a question or consideration.

 

The question was what should a couple promise each other - out loud - to cover all the bases. Give you something to think about later when there are problems, especially the possibility of cheating. A contract ignored until it's broken.

 

Does it matter whether they promise to be faithful? Is it a given, a no-brainer that marriage = monogamy?

[katielee]

I think most people stand up and say their vows, not really thinking about the vows... they think it'll be an easy no brainer. When marriage, in fact, is hard and requires constant maintenance.

[d0nnivain]

One person can't do anything about another's actions, good or bad. A pre-nup only deals with the finances & punishment clauses . . . somebody gets more or less money if they are unfaithful . . are frowned upon. Another thing many people don't realize is that the longer a marriage is, the less likely the pre-nup will be enforced exactly as written. It also doesn't cover marital (as opposed to pre marital) assets. It certainly doesn't make somebody honorable or of good character. If they are going to cheat, they are going to cheat.

 

 

I took my wedding vows seriously. Some of my friends re-watch their wedding videos to sort of renew their vows.

 

 

Communication is key & remembering to keep the romance alive help.

[T-16bullseyeWompRat]

This is silly really. What can I say today that means I won't cheat years from now? Why are you trying to write vows for someone else's relationship?

 

I got a thought, tell them not to get married if the sole focus is to not cheat. What does "covering bases" have to do with anything? When people cheat, they aren't thinking of their vows. I doubt a person on the verge of cheating is going to think "we'll I did say in my vows I specifically wouldn't cheat, so I'm not going to now." Ain't nobody thinking of their vows while cheating!

 

If someone was trying to tell me what to put in my vows or even hint or suggest, I would kindly tell them to **** off!

[gettingstronger]

I understand your question and your desire to help this couple- the best you can do is be a friend to the marriage-help them in anyway possible to stay true to each other- if they have kids-take the kids for them so they can have a date night-be an ear if either of them needs it-be kind, loving and supportive-in your own mind write vows to yourself of how you will support them-

 

I am sure based on your history this is a scary time for you too- I think its sweet you want to be proactive-in reality there is only so much outsiders can do- in our situation, our OWs Mom fully supported her daughters A because it made her happy-thats so ick and honestly, the Mom should have helped our OW get out of her "bad marriage" rather than add to the train wreck headed their way-

[understand50]

merrmeade,

 

katielee hit it on communication, but is has to be as you pointed out, completely open and honest. Both of us have Friends of the "other" sex, but while they may have started as mine or her, the friend is introduce to each other early. That way we both know the people each other spend some time with. Volunteers, hobbies, so fourth. So I think the first rule, and it could be a Vow, is to be open on who and what you are doing to the other. If she, or I, started "hiding" a relationship, that is the first big "tell" something is or could start. This should also include, Spending. Many new couples go off the rails when one or the other starts hiding what they are doing with the "marriages" money. Beside going into debt, it shows a behavior that can lead to a affair.

 

So.... First "new" vow, I will keep no secrets from you in my life.

 

Again katielee, hits it. If you are going to tell, or ask hard questions, be ready for the hard answers back. Letting the other talk things out, remembering that talk is not action, but just talk. Talk can always be forgiven, actions require reconciliation, and forgiveness. Talk can lead to help for the other to keep the wedding vows, actions show they are already broken. We have learned to listen to each other, in what ever we tell each other and talk things out.

 

So.... Second "new" vow, I will listen and do my best to understand what you are tiring to tell me.

 

merrmeade, I am a product of a broken marriage. My folks divorced when I was 11. My wife's parents remained married for 68 years. People will raise above their childhood, and a bad one, is not fate to be redone again and again. They are not you and your husband. They may be the 50% that makes it in marriage, and both can remain faithful to each other. Ask your son, what he has learned from his father, both good and bad. Ask the same about what you have pasted on to him. I think he will surprise you.

 

In any case, Grand Ma, a wedding is a time for joy, and celebration, may your son and the new bride, have a long and happy life together, and my your grandchild grow up with the love and support of their parents.

[sandylee1]

Not just friends is a good suggestion.

 

Added to reading the JFO 'just found out' threads on survivinginfidelity.com

 

When they see the turmoil and devastation of a BS.....they'll hopefully think twice before they inflict that pain on each other.

[Friskyone4u]

I think the suggestion that at some point reading the book "Not Just Friends" is not a bad idea, although i hope that would not be necessary right in the beginning of a marriage.

 

MOST AFFAIRS are not the result of ONS. most WS know their AP beforehand either through work ( the new incubator of affairs) or outside activities which could be anything. No one thinks infidelity will strike them, which is the cause of overlooking most red flags.

 

You cannot nor should you try to keep your spouse from contact of any kind with the opposite sex. but it does not take much common sense to understand the more times you consciously throw temptation in front of anyone, the more chance they will bite on the opportunity.

 

It never ceases to amaze me when this new "enlightened' concept of marriage where there are regular girls and boys nights out, separate vacations, etc. and then their is major surprise at infidelity. So this needs to be discussed.

 

There is a big difference in a bunch of guys going out to strip clubs rather than a football game, and there is a big difference in a bunch of women going out for a nice dinner to catch up on their families and lives versus putting on their sexiest outfits and heading to a club where they can't even hear each other and it if full of guys hitting on them. If your spouse find it absolutely necessary to go into strip clubs and pick up joints dressed like a stripper than you have a major problem to begin with.no one wants to discuss any of this before they get married because it is not pleasant.

 

i gues it means honest communication is what I am trying to say and that INCLUDES boundaries and expectations. if that includes non monogamy, the time to discuss that is before vows or marriage.

[merrmeade]

I think the suggestion that at some point reading the book "Not Just Friends" is not a bad idea, although i hope that would not be necessary right in the beginning of a marriage.

 

MOST AFFAIRS are not the result of ONS. most WS know their AP beforehand either through work ( the new incubator of affairs) or outside activities which could be anything. No one thinks infidelity will strike them, which is the cause of overlooking most red flags.

 

You cannot nor should you try to keep your spouse from contact of any kind with the opposite sex. but it does not take much common sense to understand the more times you consciously throw temptation in front of anyone, the more chance they will bite on the opportunity.

 

It never ceases to amaze me when this new "enlightened' concept of marriage where there are regular girls and boys nights out, separate vacations, etc. and then their is major surprise at infidelity. So this needs to be discussed.

 

There is a big difference in a bunch of guys going out to strip clubs rather than a football game, and there is a big difference in a bunch of women going out for a nice dinner to catch up on their families and lives versus putting on their sexiest outfits and heading to a club where they can't even hear each other and it if full of guys hitting on them. If your spouse find it absolutely necessary to go into strip clubs and pick up joints dressed like a stripper than you have a major problem to begin with.no one wants to discuss any of this before they get married because it is not pleasant.

 

i gues it means honest communication is what I am trying to say and that INCLUDES boundaries and expectations. if that includes non monogamy, the time to discuss that is before vows or marriage.

Yes, I agree with this. I think my sons are well warned because of their father. They're not blind and spent time with him overseas as young men. I'm sure they saw the charmer side of him with other women though they'd never tell me. They simply are not their father and were babes by comparison, going into their own marriages.

 

Their wives, like my daughter, are modern women. One of them did the Girls Night Out thing 6 weeks after delivery. He stayed home with a screaming baby and called me to help. I had a slight lifting of the MIL antenna, perhaps, but did not express or think criticism. I don't even know enough to know what should make my antenna tingle. (What do you do and where do you go for Girls Night Out? Singles bars?) They both dress, like everyone else their age, in ways that highlight curves and cleavages and look absolutely fabulous, if provocative, all the time. Do you change your wardrobe after you get married? One of them is very friendly, a natural flirt, who supervises a team of men and must travel with the men around the country. Screeching antenna. But it is NONE OF MY BUSINESS if they don't make it so.

[merrmeade]

But I do have that relationship with my daughter and wouldn't hesitate to spell out for her how A can lead to B and did so recently. She was heartbroken following a breakup and was confiding in an old bf who happens to be engaged. The old bf made her feel special and lovable again, and I started hearing more and more about these conversations. I asked if the fiancee knew about the conversations and she said that she didn't think the fiancee liked her anyway. Tingling mother antenna. She was planning to travel near where he lives and wanted him to visit her without telling the fiancee. Antenna screech. She squirmed, but listened, when I told her why providing opportunity for emotional intimacy was wrong, that this situation had the potential of crossing a line beyond friendship. She knew. I wasn't telling her something she didn't already feel. She'd probably listen if she were in the DIL's position, traveling around the country with men who found her attractive, nice, fun, etc., and I warned her about having too much to drink and fraternizing in the hotel on these trips.

 

So that's it. It IS silly to think that picking the right vows will cover all the bases and serve as a reference to prevent a ONS when someone's had too much to drink far away from home. Or any other situation or relationship that makes you feel great about how you look or are. It's a lot of things. But most of all, it's honesty and transparency to yourself. Playing like you don't know and enjoying attention, that's child's play. I do think it helps to have other mature adults around willing to talk no-nonsense talk.

[merrmeade]

merrmeade,

 

katielee hit it on communication, but is has to be as you pointed out, completely open and honest. Both of us have Friends of the "other" sex, but while they may have started as mine or her, the friend is introduce to each other early. That way we both know the people each other spend some time with. Volunteers, hobbies, so fourth. So I think the first rule, and it could be a Vow, is to be open on who and what you are doing to the other. If she, or I, started "hiding" a relationship, that is the first big "tell" something is or could start. This should also include, Spending. Many new couples go off the rails when one or the other starts hiding what they are doing with the "marriages" money. Beside going into debt, it shows a behavior that can lead to a affair.

 

So.... First "new" vow, I will keep no secrets from you in my life.

 

Again katielee, hits it. If you are going to tell, or ask hard questions, be ready for the hard answers back. Letting the other talk things out, remembering that talk is not action, but just talk. Talk can always be forgiven, actions require reconciliation, and forgiveness. Talk can lead to help for the other to keep the wedding vows, actions show they are already broken. We have learned to listen to each other, in what ever we tell each other and talk things out.

 

So.... Second "new" vow, I will listen and do my best to understand what you are tiring to tell me.

 

merrmeade, I am a product of a broken marriage. My folks divorced when I was 11. My wife's parents remained married for 68 years. People will raise above their childhood, and a bad one, is not fate to be redone again and again. They are not you and your husband. They may be the 50% that makes it in marriage, and both can remain faithful to each other. Ask your son, what he has learned from his father, both good and bad. Ask the same about what you have pasted on to him. I think he will surprise you.

 

In any case, Grand Ma, a wedding is a time for joy, and celebration, may your son and the new bride, have a long and happy life together, and my your grandchild grow up with the love and support of their parents.

I love your insights, u50. Always. And I like your specific suggestions here.

 

But I STILL think that it's worthwhile to sit down and spell out - in the beginning, middle and forever - of every marriage (which I could learn from), what you need, want and expect. If my son and his new wife, do it now with as much of themselves as they can give it, it can serve as a reference to grow from, reach back to and improve on.

 

I might consider offering them some questions to think and talk about together. It takes some boldness and imagination to fashion what you feel and want to be for someone else into a promise and then say it out loud. But that's what getting married is. It's standing before witnesses, the clan, the society and declaring aloud your commitment to protect, cherish and be faithful to your future partner and family.

[merrmeade]

If the questions could get them talking now, it's really the talking and openness, the effort to be authentic, honest and clear that needs to continue. When that goes, opportunity for self-deception and getting what you need from someone else even becomes possible. I think.

[ShatteredLady]

I've read that statistically people REALLY regret having affairs. Many of us here know how agonizing & life changing affairs are. My H had his first about 12 years ago. He's been open about how much he regrets it, how stupid it was, what a cruel fantasy it was. He KNOWS!!!

 

Did he learn from this experience? NO! This time last year he started another A. Today he's wishing it never happened. He feels guilty. He feels terrible. I'm more damaged, our marriage is more damaged than words can express.

 

Part of me wishes that everyone who read forums like this BEFORE they marry so they can learn the emotional carnage of affairs but what good would it do? If you asked my H a couple of years ago if he could ever betray me again, he wouldn't hesitate...NO!!! Of course he would NEVER put me, him, us through that again.....but then opportunity raised its/her head again!!

 

No-one thinks they could sink that low until they're flying high & justifying it to themselves. Their A is ALWAYS 'different', 'special', soul-mates....

[katielee]

I'm not sure the vows are as important as being a mentally healthy human being. I really had no right to get married. I wasn't "cooked" yet. I had gads of FOO issues, needed external validation because of it and was severely CA. So, I think had this all been ironed out ahead of time I would have honored the general marriage vows, and truthfully, I don't even remember ours.

 

I would suggest marital counseling, for ANYONE pre-marriage. Talk about the habits of mature people - communication, interdependence, similar goals in mind. People change as they age. How will the partners respond to that. I'm not sure this is all about keeping a promise. But maybe just being as ready as you can be for a partnership and that means being a mature person who has a realistic view of life.

[GunslingerRoland]

#1) Like you said, vows aren't going to prevent infidelity. However talking about marriage and infidelity and what it means before hand can help make it less likely.

#2) You make it sound like marriages break up because of infidelity. That is the side effect rather than the cause of many marital problems. It can't be the only thing you focus on.

 

 

So yeah, I'm not sure the vows is really the place to focus on how to avoid infidelity, I think open and honest communication before and during the marriage is a better approach.

[merrmeade]

I would suggest marital counseling, for ANYONE pre-marriage. Talk about the habits of mature people - communication, interdependence, similar goals in mind. People change as they age. How will the partners respond to that. I'm not sure this is all about keeping a promise. But maybe just being as ready as you can be for a partnership and that means being a mature person who has a realistic view of life.

I LOVE this idea but not so sure they would. My son, I think, would be for it. When each of my kids were teenagers, I paid for counseling for 1-3 years for different reasons each time. It only dawned on me later when this son enthusiasitically announced, "I'm going to do the same thing Mom did when I have teenagers: Take them all to counseling!" It was pretty funny at the time since I'd never consciously made such a decision or realized I'd created a precedent. But also because he was so disarmingly open about such a hush-hush topic. So, point is: He loves counseling.

 

But the wife is NOT the same open book, easy to read personality and keeps her vulnerabilities 'in the family,' meaning mostly hers. Don't get me wrong; she's great. I love and support her but not sure she'd think this a good use of (somebody's) money.

[sandylee1]

I actually run pre marriage courses in my parish. They are very interesting...but by the time I see couples..They have decided they are getting married......not much will make them not get married..but I recommend not just friends to them.....after reading out an excerpt.

 

You can usually hear a pin drop at this point. It might be worth doing a survey after a couple of years to see if it has made a difference at that point.

[Spectre]

I think the vows for infidelity should be, from a male point of view:

 

-no sex with other men. no oral sex, no cyber sex, no phone sex, no sexting. You can't even use morse code to sext.

-no flirting with other men. I don't care if you are a "natural flirt". Learn to control it or don't get married.

-no hanging out alone with other men

-if you get a crush on another dude there is a problem, tell your husband immediately. Being physically attracted to someone is one thing and a crush is another.

-if you are unhappy talk about it, don't use it as an excuse to cheat. if your partner refuses to work on things then divorce and then you can go wild and get with other people, it really doesn't matter what the issue is, either deal with it or leave, don't cheat.

 

If a woman is about to get married and has an issue with any of these then alert your fiancé immediately because that is a big red flag.

 

Now if I was female I'd of written out the same list about what a man shouldn't be doing. So you can apply everything I said to the man as well.

[Mr. Lucky]

-no sex with other men. no oral sex, no cyber sex, no phone sex, no sexting. You can't even use morse code to sext.

-no flirting with other men. I don't care if you are a "natural flirt". Learn to control it or don't get married.

-no hanging out alone with other men

-if you get a crush on another dude there is a problem, tell your husband immediately. Being physically attracted to someone is one thing and a crush is another.

-if you are unhappy talk about it, don't use it as an excuse to cheat. if your partner refuses to work on things then divorce and then you can go wild and get with other people, it really doesn't matter what the issue is, either deal with it or leave, don't cheat.

 

Does anyone walk away from the ceremony confused about the meaning of honor, cherish and "forsake all others"? A WS may make lots of excuses for straying but "I didn't know I wasn't supposed to cheat" usually isn't one of them...

 

Mr. Lucky