I'm 46. Am I screwed.

[dreamingoftigers]

As eager as I am to beat myself up, I am not sure I am ready to sign up for "messed her around."

 

I moved her to my country, I committed to creating a home, and I articulated a willingness/desire to marry her by the end of 2015.

 

I constantly told her I loved her, and on many occasions told her I wanted to marry her 1,000,000 times, not just once.

 

Now that stuff about setting an exact date and meeting the parents... there, I screwed up. But I was on board, in principle.

She went off and married "good enough," because it was on her timetable and her family set it up. (At least I am pretty sure.)

 

And I am left nearly dead inside.

 

The timeline there is fine if you are both on board with it.

 

The parental meeting should've happened though as part of the process. I can totally see that.

[dreamingoftigers]

Well if it meant so much to her, why did she only put it out there on 2 occasions.

 

I once had a woman who was head over heels for me. She would pretty much hint at marriage once every second day. She was direct, she made her feelings clear. She wasn't wishy-washy.

 

His Ex sounds like she lacked those qualities. If she wanted it that bad, she would have raised it as an issue far more often.

 

The VAST MAJORITY of women will NOT nag for marriage.

 

Most of us want the guy to want to marry us. Not just insert ourselves in his life and make demands.

 

I can see why it took you so long to budge.

 

Seriously, ONLY TWICE?

 

In general, a woman won't do it TWICE! She waits, she'll mention it if there's no progress, she sees no progress, she leaves.

[RedRobin]

Something you might need to wrap your brain around... Regarding the value of commitment...

 

I am going to echo Grumpy's post... For those who believe in the value of commitment... A lot of us believe that true love... The deepest kind... Can only be nurtured and grown in a foundation built in commitment.

 

There are a lot of traditional cultures that look on it similarly. That true love grows after commitment, not before. The only purpose of the 'before' is making sure that the ground is fertile for a healthy, happy relationship. The rest is luck and a dedication to the family and relationship.

 

If, like a lot of Americans, you like having an exit plan... A foot out of the door...or go on infatuation and hormones (which are great, don't get me wrong... But that's not love).... Think about what marriage and commitment mean to you.

 

A lot of people aren't up for it or don't believe in it. Maybe you are one if them. Sure, it hurts to lose her, but if you aren't capable of making a commitment and don't share her values that way, then she made the best decision for both of you. Maybe you aren't a till death do us part guy... That's ok. Lots aren't.

[pureinheart]

My ex replaced me in 5 months... wedding and everything. I feel obsolete and idiotic.

 

You're not obsolete or idiotic- screw the ex... sounds like 'ex' is the proper place for that one... this 'ex' did not deserve you.

[K2z]

Love after commitment... commitment after love... they were all chicken and egg at the time for me.

 

She actually warned me, in black and white, that she would leave if we couldn't get married. Part of me resented that, and wanted to "let marriage happen." That's either an avoidance mechanism or naive romanticism.

 

Neither of which matters now. In hindsight, I should have married her.

[sandylee1]

Snap poll. Who thinks that this Thai woman knew the Euro guy before April?

 

I've assumed they met in April when she went to visit her sister. But others suggest I was being double timed all along while she was in Thailand.

 

That would change my inner chemistry on this whole issue.

 

I don't think she knew him before. When I was seeing my H before marriage...he was wanting us to live together and wasn't talking marriage in the near future..... I was ready to end it and believe me I could have been married within a year of then.

 

I totally get where she's coming from.

 

You need to bear in mind that she was probably thinking that her biological clock was ticking and you were not committing.

 

I'm not Thailand. ... but in my culture it isn't the done thing for girls to bring 'boyfriends' to meet the folks. My dad only met my husband and I had a few boyfriends. I introduced them properly when I knew we would be getting married. My dad made it clear he didn't want to meet boyfriends.... so I get where she's coming from.

 

It was okay for my brothers to bring girlfriends home. .. but not my sisters and I. It's sexist I know but as a female your are viewed as 'cheap/loose' if you bring guys home to the folks and they meet all the village folk. They think that the respectable guys won't marry you if you have brought others to meet the folk.

 

It's just not the done thing for a girl to be bringing guys home in some cultures. I once told my mom about a BF and she said so if you get married how will you manage the difference in.........blah blah blah....I was only 19.

[K2z]

It's just not the done thing for a girl to be bringing guys home in some cultures.

 

Yes. This is what she told me very emphatically, and why I got cold feet, especially that first time.

 

Later she said her parents had spoken to her (admonished) about living with me in another country without being married, and the alarm bells should have been blaring.

 

But I was numbed by self-delusion, and by all the dopamine and good hormones that being in love produce. Hire a skywriter: I was a fool.

[sandylee1]

Yes. This is what she told me very emphatically, and why I got cold feet, especially that first time.

 

Later she said her parents had spoken to her (admonished) about living with me in another country without being married, and the alarm bells should have been blaring.

 

But I was numbed by self-delusion, and by all the dopamine and good hormones that being in love produce. Hire a skywriter: I was a fool.

 

When it's not your culture it's harder to understand I guess. Because of how society is ...... particularly in mine and other cultures..it's frowned upon.

 

My friends from other cultures would speak of their BFs coming on family holidays with them..... no way would that be allowed in my culture. You need to read up on the culture of future partners to see where they're coming from.

 

 

My H was talking about us buying a house and I had to tell him there's no way I could do that without marriage.... The view is that if a man is serious about you...he will marry you, not just want to live with you....... with a loose promise of 'we'll see how we get on and take it from there' That wouldn't wash at all.

 

Then few years down the line there's no change and you feel trapped then as a woman.

 

My folks met about 5/6 of my brothers GFs each, but me or my sisters could never have done that.

 

Those who say 3 years isn't long enough to know.... I disagree. When I met a guy.... I knew within a months if he was someone to take it further with. .... not that I was sure I wanted to marry them. ...but I knew if I DIDN'T want to marry that kind of guy.

 

From other knowledge and experience...... I understand you may have felt like just a guy to marry. Some foreign girls use the overseas men for a better life.

 

A woman post 30 will want to know marriage is in the plans..... and not the distant plans. As women... We wait on men to propose... if it's not forthcoming we have to move on. Otherwise you become miserable in the relationship and who wants to marry a miserable woman . it's catch 22.

 

You're young enough to find love... but as a man ...people will wonder why you haven't been married so far.. They assume there's a story. As a woman.. They think you've been unlucky.

No marriage = misery...misery = no marriage.

[K2z]

It is so obvious to me in hindsight... from the cultural dimensions to her feelings of urgency and disappointment in the delay. It came up too often for me to pretend surprise or ignorance. But I kept trying to pound a square peg in a round hole, and imagine that we could marry on my comfortable timetable.

 

The funny thing is that she still loves me, and she knows very well that I love her. And there she sits, in another marriage, on another continent, fading off into the sunset. The other guy benefited from custom coaching by the sis and brother in law, and perhaps the cautionary tale of me. He wins. I lose.

[chinadiary]

My ex STILL doesn't get it. He contacted me yesterday, referring to the most recent recurrance of this (which led to my ending it) as a 'new problem' and saying he wanted to talk about it. SMH How can someone be SO deluded?

 

I told him, same old same old, no talking necessary. I wish I hadn't broken NC but I couldn't help myself. While I do still love him, I wonder how I managed to for so long. He's either playing a particularly stupid and cruel game or is just plain ignorant.

[K2z]

The difference, it would seem, between me and your ex is that at least I alluded to marrying and a timetable. When the break happened, I sent an explicit plan to marry, saying I realize my mistake. Of course by then she had no faith and other plans lined up. But I would have married the hell out of this woman, full stop.

[marky00]

The other guy benefited from custom coaching by the sis and brother in law, and perhaps the cautionary tale of me. He wins. I lose.

 

And there you have it.... Maybe she learned a thing or two as well. Learned how to approach the topic of marriage with a westerner in a productive way (i.e not freaking him out).

 

Maybe she finally understood the other perspective and was thus able to raise the issue of marriage and commitment in a more sensitive way.

 

Don't beat yourself up so much about the marriage thing. Post breakup my Ex said stuff like "Why did you never ask to marry me?". I heard her new bf put an engagement ring on her finger a month later. Well bout 6 months after that she told me she thought she was too old to get married and enjoyed a simple life. Basically she is just selfish, probably just likes the idea of being married and someone proposing but when push comes to shove, isn't as into marriage as she claimed to be.

 

Your Ex marrying this guy is one thing, it being a successful marriage is another. She sounds pretty selfish to me. I'm predicting a divorce anytime soon.

Edited November 26, 2015 by marky00

[K2z]

While I do still love him, I wonder how I managed to for so long. He's either playing a particularly stupid and cruel game or is just plain ignorant.

 

Give him an ultimatum. Then marry him, or don't. He'll thank you.

[chinadiary]

No ultimatum. It's over. I don't trust him to make that commitment anymore. I'm not going back. I don't know about guys but I get to the point where I've just had enough. And I have now. He pushed me too far.

 

Thanks for the advice though. I wish I'd had it a year ago!

[K2z]

My God that could have come right out of my ex's mouth.

[chinadiary]

My God that could have come right out of my ex's mouth.

 

I do see the parallels. Sorry. Like you say, I think our situations are different. You said you would marry her. My ex didn't ever clearly say we would live together.

 

As much as I love and miss him, my life has moved on too much to get back together. I'm just glad I still respect him though, unlike my 2 previous partners.

[K2z]

Your Ex marrying this guy is one thing, it being a successful marriage is another. She sounds pretty selfish to me. I'm predicting a divorce anytime soon.

 

I don't know if that's a comfort or not. I would feel a certain vindication if it crashed and burned, but I would gain nothing in reality.

[K2z]

Just a brief tickle of this old thread, if you would indulge me.

 

I had a cathartic episode of writing today, and I have half a mind to send the note below to the recently married ex.

 

I know, most people will say DON'T, and I know it will accomplish nothing concretely... but I just feel it might bring a bit of balance to the universe.

 

Anyway. Here goes.

 

==========================

 

I was daydreaming today.

 

I let my mind wander into a fantasy place in which maybe you decided you made a mistake and tried to come back to me. And then, I recalled a very real phone conversation I had with my mother in which she told me she would never accept you into our family after the hurt I’ve been through.

 

That’s when it hit me. Your family probably said the same thing, or something very similar, to you.

 

I don’t know whether it would have been your mother or your sisters… but someone in your family saw a hurt in you that I did not manage to see enough of— partially because you hid a lot of it from me, but also because I wasn’t able to see it. Maybe I didn’t let myself see it. And I think your family tried to protect you from more hurt of the same kind. That’s why you became convinced “we can’t marry.”

 

I want you to know I didn’t realize how badly you were hurting because of my delays. You would send me crying emoticons on Facebook, but you never spelled it out it to me so clearly, using sincere and personal words, until the emails we exchanged two days before your wedding. I wish so deeply that you had used such plain language a year ago, and told me that you had “cried in your heart,” or that you were becoming convinced that “we can’t marry.”

 

My belief at the time was that we were slowly but surely working our way toward a lifetime commitment. I realize in retrospect that my delays, and my caution, were sending you signals that you were somehow not good enough. Nothing could be further from the truth, or from how I felt.

 

I daydreamed my way past a lot of the urgent signals you were sending me — but let me just explain to you what the daydream looked like.

 

Most US guys want to propose marriage in a special way, with a certain element of surprise— not plan it out, like some kind of negotiation. So what I imagined would happen was that sometime before the end of 2015, I would go down on one knee and put our family’s diamond ring on your finger, and ask you “XXXXX, will you marry me?”

 

THAT’S how I always imagined proposing— and that’s what I would have done with you before the end of the year, even if you had just come back from [Europe] as scheduled with no trouble in between. You can refuse to believe that for the rest of your life, but I swear to God that it is true.

 

I don’t write this in the hopes of reversing anything that has happened. You have made an irreversible decision, and I now cannot be a part of your life in any way whatsoever — including, unfortunately, as friends. Friends is simply not possible. I think deep down, you know that too.

 

I write this because this time around, it is me who has cried in my heart for many months now, and in more recent days my heart feels completely destroyed. My pain now, and your pain before, seem to be linked in a circle. I write this so I can make the circle of pain a little smaller.

[lolablue17]

I Don't this letter is bad for YOU. But it certainly bad for her. It will hurt her, for sure, and maybe deep in your heart that's what you want - To hurt her.

 

If hurting her will improve your healing, do what you feel you must do.

[K2z]

It makes me feel petty and very sad-- tears coming up as I type-- but yes. Maybe I do want her to feel some pain. Maybe that's what I meant by "balance in the universe."

[lolablue17]

So go ahead... :-)

 

I know if someone would have left in these circumstances, I would have wanted to to hurt her too... I'm not saying it's the right thing to do though...

[mightycpa]

It makes me feel petty and very sad-- tears coming up as I type-- but yes. Maybe I do want her to feel some pain. Maybe that's what I meant by "balance in the universe."

Yeah, because that's love, right?

 

See? You're getting better already, moving from love to payback. It won't be too long now before you're ok.

[K2z]

Figured that would draw something from mightycpa.

 

If I'm brutally honest with myself, I think it's a rather desperate attempt to stay relevant in her emotional narrative. Stoke the embers of "maybe I made a mistake." Put a pebble in Cinderella's shoe.

[theredpill]

You're only out of time when you're dead....

 

 

I'm nearly 46, looks wise mid to late 30's - looking to meet a woman in her 30's and I'm utterly confident it'll happen.

 

 

She's just one f'kin woman dude, there's billions of them - time to grow your balls back and get back out there, because at the moment, you're acting like a woman would act.

[marky00]

Not sure you should send it.

 

She is Thai and they deal with emotions differently.

 

Having a crack at her long-term just makes her angry and helps her relive guilt.

 

DONT LOSE FACE with her, that's what she is expecting. I know it suc but if u want o hurt her, then stay the moral high ground and don't lose face.

 

That will irritate her and she will carry it to her grave.

 

Think about it... someone does something bad to you.... so you turn around and tell them how nasty they are blah blah blah. Soon enough they forgot they did something bad to you because they are just thinking what bad thing you did to them.

 

Im hurting just like you are man. My Ex is Thai to. I still love here and I had a good cry today to. If not sure if I will speak to her again... but I will never show her or tell her my anger. SHE KNOWS... as Im sure your Ex does.

 

STAY SILENT..... and let her own her guilt is the best course of action I think.

 

At least for now.

 

 

Man, I arrived with my family and she threw me and my whole family out. Do you think if she was a Westerner, she could have gone full NC for months... absolutely no way. A westerner would have gone into breadcrumbs mode to appease their guilt however possible. The reason she did something horrible and never heard from her again is that is the THAI way. They don't engage like westerner's. Her solution to the issue will be to visit the temple for the next 5 years... that is just the way they are.

 

Id does suck I know, because you want to her to engage you like a westerner but she wont. She has put the wall up and her suffering will stay inside that wall and never be exposed. That is the THAI way.

 

By the way, when i broke NC like 3 months post BU, her first words were "I didn't contact you because I thought u hated me". You see, its a lose-lose game. You stay silent, she thinks you hate her, you say something you will end up losing face. THAIs hate confrontation (i.e. losing face)... she will do everything to avoid it believe me.

 

If you send it ... it probably will sting her short-term but you won't get a response... I'm almost 100 percent sure.

 

Thais are huge on Karma. My Ex mentioned she was fighting heaps with her new bf and guess what she said "I'm getting my Karma i guess".

 

You can't compare hesitation for marriage and a horrible BU as equally painful experiences. What she did was 100x worse and she knows it. You didn't shatter her ego, you didn't smash her heart... you made a few human mistakes and disappointed her that it. One day when she gets dumped... she will learn the difference.

 

You can't stay relevant in a Thai's emotional narrative... because she doesn't want conflict. However your silence keeps you relevant in her mind... that's the best you can do I think.

 

When she says "she cried in her heart"... that's to help her feel less guilty. If she really did cry in her heart like she says.... she would have told you that at the BU..... not a few days before her marriage. That's just her re-writing the past somewhat to make her feel better that her horrible act was justified.

 

YOUR LOOKING FOR A CONFLICT TO HELP YOU MOVE ON. SHE WILL NEVER GIVE YOU THAT CONFLICT EVER EVER !!!

Edited December 15, 2015 by marky00