Do You See What I See?

[Midwestmissy]

Also - remember that the reason you feel so conflicted is because you're seeing the situation through your moral lens. You're not a cheater or a liar or a vow breaker, so how can the woman you love be? continue to be the good person, but take them out at the knees. This doesn't sound like a love affair, just 2 effed up people effing. And yes, you have to accept that they are in fact doing just that. I'm so sorry.

[katielee]

I just want to say i'm sorry you're going through this... very sorry. You are getting good advice here.

I hired a PI. Best thing I did. If he wasn't going to tell me what was going on in my life then I'll force the issue. Caught very red-handed.

[oldshirt]

The change in dress, change in attitude, dramatic decrease in marital sex, her being angry with you all the time, the lunch with the OM and the Facebook posts about their little getaway ARE THE SMOKING GUN.

 

all of those things are signs of involvement with a 3rd party. You have a laundry list of string evidence of an inappropriate relationship. Do you need photographs and expert testimony and DNA samples from her vagina to see what's happening here? This is not a court of law prosecuting a criminal case. This is you opening your eyes and realizing your wife is involved with another man.

 

The Facebook posts are actually pretty darn bold and blatant. If they are that blatant and in-your-face about it, this is actually a pretty developed and entrenched affair that appears they aren't even trying to be discrete. She is either really deep in the fog and has completely lost touch with reality, or she is actually prepared to exit the marriage.

 

You aren't imagining things here or misreading ambiguous signs. Your wife is involved with another man.

 

Act accordingly.

[oldshirt]

Now she will follow a well defined script when she gets home.

 

Look up the term DARVO. (Deny. Attack. Reverse Victim and Offender)

 

She will try to say that they are "Just Friends™" and try to make you feel like you are paranoid and imagining things. (Gaslighting)

 

Then she will admit to some flirting and emotional ties that may have been a little inappropriate but an affair. (Minimizing and trickle truth)

 

Then she will say she won't do it again and its time to get back to normal (rug sweeping)

 

Then you will find holes in her story and she will admit to more than she initially did (trickle truth)

 

This will goon definately unless you take immediate and definitive action.

[Midwestmissy]

Oldshirt, my h used the exact same script. There was nothing original, romantic or honest about the affair, including the lies he told. One big unoriginal cliche.

[Betrayed&Stayed]

I can't possibly imagine why she would risk 10 years of marriage for that.

She has everything she wanted, a great social life, a great life, financial security, a husband that takes of her, emotionally and physically, why would she throw all that way?

 

Doesn't make sense...

 

Cheaters believe that they will not get caught.

 

I honestly started to laugh at the thought of my wife cheating on me...

But after reading your post, you really made me stop and think because you seem so sure about it...

 

suddenly, I'm not laughing anymore

 

It is a foregone conclusion that she is having a full-on affair with this guy. The question now is how to move forward now that you know this.

 

Your wife's affair is so cliche (and common) that your post reads like someone writing a fictitious case study. My wife's affair was very similar to your situation. And yes, my wife had everything including a happy marriage and a doting husband. I would have never, never, never imagined my wife cheating on me. But she did.. with a co-worker.

[aliveagain]

Hero, there are way too many red flags here to say nothing is going on. Your wife is following the cheaters hand book to a T. Going out for drinks after work, dressing sexier that usual as business attire, having password protection on her phone, cutting you off sex, picking fights with you, not returning your calls, the always popular "my phone died" making you think your crazy. The only thing you haven't mentioned is that her grooming habits of her private area has changed. At minimum she is having an emotional affair but very likely a physical affair. Hope for the best but plan for the worst. Be there when she unpacks, see what she unpacks, you may see things that she has never worn for you.

 

My now ex used to hide her sexy undergarments at the bottom of the laundry so I wouldn't see it. You can buy a semen detection kit at most drugstores if you think it's helpful. The man you suspect of having an affair with your wife is most likely single if he is posting video's of your wife on his lap. Do not threaten her with divorce if she was unfaithful because she will deny it until you have proof. They are spending these last few days together planning their alibi's. The only reason your wife would have an affair is because she can and because she thinks she can get away with it, they never expect to get caught. They almost always affair down, they hook up with people with more problems then themselves so they can feel better about themselves.

 

My other advice is to never threaten anything you don't intend to do, protect yourself, find out your rights, talk to a lawyer so you know where you stand regardless of the outcome. There is something broken in your wife, the affair is about her and has nothing to do with you or the state of your marriage, she owns the cheating 100%. When confronting explain that you know everything and that she has one chance to tell you the truth. She needs to know that she is free to see the other man but just not as your wife. Have your requirements for reconciliation prepared if reconciliation is what you want. Do not confront here on the phone, have a VAR on you when you do confront.

[Poutrew]

Another, admittedly small, thing you can do today while she is away, is go through her underwear draw (look through her closet, etc.). What are you looking for? Hidden things. Some people keep souvenirs... Anything out of the ordinary. Like if she usually wears old lady panties, and you see some Frederic's of Hollywood thongs buried in one corner under everything, and she has worn and washed them but you've never seen them on her, well she is wearing them for someone...likely she has prepared for this trip, but hasn't taken everything with her so there will be clues. Do what police investigators do - go through the trash. See what she throws away. You will be unbelievably lucky if you come across a torn or rumpled up love note she carelessly threw away or hid under her hose, but then again, your wife seems incredibly brazen at this point so you might hit pay dirt.

[kgcolonel]

Hero, Can you document that this trip IS actually a business trip? That would be a place to look to as to whether this was simply a "let's get away and have fun" or truly a business trip.

 

I am very sorry you are going through this but one thing that I can't express enough, don't beg, plead, bargain etc. This will make you look weak. Be strong regardless of how you interact with her going forward. If you choose reconciliation she will need to own her affair with the 4 R's:

 

Remorse, Regret, Reform and Repentance

 

Remorse in acknowledging that your wife has true sorrow for betraying you and your union.

 

Regret in that what she did reflects on her and her only and that she, unconditionally owns this and is committed to building the union back to where you are satisfied that it should be.

 

Reform in correcting any situation / behavior / attitude to ensure that this never happens again....transparency with computer, phone, email, etc.

 

Repentance in truly expressing to you that she owns the fact that she has committed acts that have hurt you deeply and have damaged the feelings you have for her.

 

Hero, All of these things must be done to your definition. You need to take time to determine before any confrontation what it is that you need to even consider a reconciliation. i.e. see all her texts, not just the ones between her and this guy but all the older ones as well and going forward, never to delete or use snapchat etc.

 

She has to accept total responsibility for the betrayal. There may have been issues in the marriage but those did not cause her to cheat, she CHOOSE to cheat. Any indication that she does not accept the total responsibility here would be a deal killer.

 

Listen to the advise here on LS as there are many very wise and unfortunately experienced people to give you great guidance.

 

KGColonel

[Buckeye2]

She also started giving me attitude about almost everything; we've probably had 1 major argument in our entire marriage, now suddenly everything I do seems to piss her off.

 

She knows what she’s doing is at least inappropriate and does this to rationalize her behavior. She will take a small thing that may be true and blow in all out of proportion to feel less guilty. The other man is probably egging her on telling her that she deserves better.

 

This is a major reason why affairs are so toxic to a marriage. If you do something nice it makes her feel bad. If you do something inconsiderate she’s glad because it gives her more ammunition.

 

How old is your wife? I’ve noticed over and over on these boards that women around 40 in a new environment are at risk. Some have an empty or about to be empty nest. They have no intention of leaving their husband. They figure that what he doesn’t know will not hurt him.

 

Even if she’s planning to leave you she will be very motivated to never admit her affair to protect her reputation. A terrible position to be in is to be 99% sure they had sex but no proof. What do you do with that? She will be crying, saying all the right things and you will want to believe her.

 

She doesn’t have to be a great actress because the emotions are real. She’s in a panic because she may have screwed up the rest of her life.

 

If you divorce her she will tell people it’s because she didn’t answer the phone. Do option #2 above and dial it back. Let the dust settle and investigate.

 

Are you picking her up at the airport? If her car is at home put a VAR under her car seat now.

Edited November 23, 2015 by Buckeye2

[kgcolonel]

Hero

 

Just a question as to her perception of your concern. Is she leaving any messages or texts? What is the nature of these messages, this will give you some insight as to what she thinks you either know or suspect.

[Midwestmissy]

Obviously a lot of us have experienced almost the exact same situation, which is why we so desperately want you to do what some of didn't.

 

My h (we are working on reconciling) told me that the things that attracted him to her were that she always talked about what good people they both were (after they'd been bad), that she parroted back every opinion he said so that they seemed so in sync, never disagreed, she was conveniently right there at work, and she was willing to sleep with him (I've been edited a lot on this site so I'll not go further in my colourful description). She also always managed to contact him (work emergency - help!) as soon as I left town with the kids or as soon as h got back from a family trip with us - she needed to break the family bond so he wouldn't drift back. He said once he realized she'd leave her 4 kids w her bh on a Friday night to screw him, it disgusted him. And then he realized he was doing the same thing. There was no respect to be found anywhere - not for each other, themselves, the company, their families. Tons of damage for a 4mo nothing.

 

The only other advice I have for you, which I did even when they "were just friends", "it was only an ea", "I don't sleep with my employees ever" was go directly to the doctor and get an std panel done. Ends up that the mow social worker do-gooder who he raved about was a serial cheating imbecile who had screwed up a lot of business relationships. She had also left her first h for his brother, who was now being cheated on.

 

I figuratively slapped the rose coloured glasses off his face. H cannot believe how stupid he was. It's the same story as the previous 3 pages here. Had you told me this 3 yrs ago I would have been (and was) in the same nauseating denial that you feel. Be strong.

[salparadise]

I honestly don't think she's cheating on me, but obviously some major boundaries have been crossed. Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance.

 

Read this thread by puzzleddad67- similar scenarios and he said the same things as you... that he didn't believe she would cheat. Everyone was telling him and he kept denying it until he finally found incontrovertible evidence.

 

Not sure if it's too late in your case, but don't confront until you have the proof, because it just alerts them to the need to cover their tracks. The evidence gathering methods were outlined later in the same thread I believe. There are several threads on here with this info spelled out in detail.

 

You know enough now that you shouldn't be in denial any longer. You need to be methodical and precise in how you handle it from here on out. Despite what some may say, having the right proof makes a huge difference regardless of which way things progress in the future.

 

Here's the thread- sorry you're having to go through this.

Am I being unreasonable?

[bubbaganoosh]

 

I have to be honest though. My wife has a way of making my heart melt.

She knows all the right buttons to push, if she starts crying I might break.

But I honestly don't expect her to do that, she's been in a pretty B!tchy mood these past couple of months

If anything I expect her to get mad, anger I can handle.

 

Hero if she starts crying, it's not tears from hurting you. It's for getting caught. This just didn't happen overnight. You saw her with a guy at a bar having drinks. OK Could be perfectly harmless, but combine that with her attitude change towards you and now you find out with video proof that this same guy is with her while she's out of town on a work trip.

 

Just remember all of that when the tears start flowing. It's a ruse, a cheap attempt to divert her wrong doing.

 

When she comes home, I suggest you let her explain herself and then set up a polygraph test without her knowing about it and then let her know that an appointment has been set up, she's going to take it and the results from the test will either make or break the marriage but DO NOT fall for the tears. If you do, you lose.

[Krashi]

Pretty much the exact same thing we all said in the beginning .

 

You've already made one mistake in letting her know you were suspicious as she now has a couple days to try and cover her tracks. I'd immediately get in touch with your cell phone service provider (hopefully it's not a work phone) and ask for a print out of calls and text messages. You may find one number was contacted a distressing number of times.

 

Also get ready for a blizzard of denial and defensive attacks (Google "gaslighting"), some of which you've already seen. "He's just a friend", "you're crazy", "you're invading my privacy", etc.

 

None of us know if your wife is cheating on you. What we do know is it's pretty easy for her to prove she isn't - transparent phone use, open book social media, clear boundaries. If she resists doing so, I'm afraid you may have your answer...

 

Mr. Lucky

This is so right on, as are the other opinions. I, like many other betrayed folks, have become obsessively expert in this stuff. Tons of reading and research for years now.

I have seen this pattern of behavior, with minor variations, repeated in hundreds of stories and have yet to see a story where infidelity was not confirmed later.

No married person sits in the lap of another with a bikini on unless cheating.

I have no doubt, as Mr Lucky notes, that you are going to get gaslit and accused of paranoia and jealousy. For many of us, we doubt our sanity and grasp of reality when our partners do this . And, it is often this cruel disregard for our mental health that is the death blow to the marriage, not the cheating itself.

I think you have a decent amount of evidence, but, many of us needed more proof before feeling confident in having found infidelity. If that is the case for you, getting additional evidence will be more difficult now that you have at least alluded to some impropriety on her part. She may quit or take this further underground, making detection more difficult.

She knows you are onto her, but is not sure how much you know. That is why she is blowing up your phine. She wil try, maybe subtly, to discern what you know.

I'd be vague on this, for a while. Let her twist a bit in the wind and let her mind race, as yours is.

Perhaps something al;ong the lines of " do you have something you want to tell me?", and leave it at that when she denies having anything.

Let her mind work on that and wonder. (This takes incredible restraint on your part and may not interest you. But, I can guarranty you she will deny what you have now as evidence of an affair and accuse you of paranoia, jealousy etc.

This is my long winded way of saying that I am certain she is cheating based on long term research and seeing this exact pattern hundreds of times in the stories.

[Hero]

and the hits just keep on coming

 

Found her itinerary for this trip.

It wasn't a business trip, it was a company fun trip before the holiday.

Apparently they were encouraged to bring their spouses. Funny how she left that little part out

Also checked her panty drawer and found a pair of crotchless, she's never worn these for me

 

terrific

 

I did talk to her (she called me) she was pissed, I told her in all the years we've been married her phone has never died,

she apologized and said she probably needs a new phone, told her I was tired and will talk more when she gets home.

 

Thanks everyone for all the responses, I promise to read them all and respond with more later, right now I am just emotionally spent, but to answer a few quick questions,

 

My wife is 39, but you would never believe that if you saw her, she takes very good care of herself

 

I didn't want to mention it before because I thought it was TMI, but yes, she did recently shave down there.

 

Don't know much about this guy but according to his facebook page he's VERY single.

 

VARS, GPS, Key logger for Home PC on the way

Had a good P.I. recommended to me

Will have phone records later today

 

I'll try to address some of the other questions later, but right now I'm exhausted and my mind is a mess,

I've gone from shock, to denial, to pissed, to wondering where it all went wrong.

 

I finally decided to accept the fact that my marriage may be over

I'm not perfect, but I haven't done anything to make her treat me like this, she owns this

I gave her everything she wanted, working sun up to sun down

I took care of business in the bedroom and made sure I complimented her

I stayed attentive, but I never smothered her

I don't understand what more I could have done

 

To hell with it, calling a lawyer, she's lost her mind if she thinks I'm going to put up with this crap

[Krashi]

Read this thread by puzzleddad67- similar scenarios and he said the same things as you... that he didn't believe she would cheat. Everyone was telling him and he kept denying it until he finally found incontrovertible evidence.

 

Not sure if it's too late in your case, but don't confront until you have the proof, because it just alerts them to the need to cover their tracks. The evidence gathering methods were outlined later in the same thread I believe. There are several threads on here with this info spelled out in detail.

 

You know enough now that you shouldn't be in denial any longer. You need to be methodical and precise in how you handle it from here on out. Despite what some may say, having the right proof makes a huge difference regardless of which way things progress in the future.

 

Here's the thread- sorry you're having to go through this.

Am I being unreasonable?

Again anothe experienced poster who has this exactly right.

 

As regards anger as a reaction to your inquiry, it is themost certain sign of cheating.

I know, with little analysis, it may seem that anger is a normal response to being accused of something unjustifiably.

But, stop and really think about it. A spouse who loves you, despite being, perhaps , taken aback and shocked by this type of accusation, will never respond with anger.

An innocent spouse, invested in the relationship, will react with incredible concern, initially, bending over backwards to ease your woryy, offering complete transparency.

Later he or she may be perturbed, but, never , initially.

Think about it. If your wife came to you with similar concerns, I bet you would react as I have said, vs anger etc.

[Krashi]

First off I'm so sorry that you're having to go through this. Definitely a terrible feeling and seems like your hearts being ripped out. I initially though that with her starting a new job after years at home that it would just be your insecurity and a bit of jealousy at her newfound joy and workplace environment.

 

Unfortunately it's not that. She is cheating on you. The fact that you're not as naive and blind to it is already better than what a lot of men are.

The fact that she's locked her phone tells us that she doesn't want you to have the possibility to access it and the affair is transparent if you did open it.

The lunch time surprise would've broke my heart. If she wasn't involved with this guy she would've introduced you, told him she would catch him back at the office and sat down with you and been thrilled you were there to surprise her. Her visible shock and instinct to leave and use "gotta get back to work, gimme a heads up next time " as an excuse shows that she would rather you think she's being shady and explain later, instead of interact with you and her lover there at the same time and risk you noticing they have way more than just a workplace bond.

 

Echoing what others have advised. Definitely save and screen shot the photos that are in the guys Facebook page. Also video tape the videos from your phone or save them so that you can use them at a later date confronting her. My guess is that she will eventually find out he posted them and tell him to delete them or make his page private immediately. So get on this ASAP as they'll be gone soon.

 

You have 2 options right now.

1. You can have the pictures and video and the evidence you have right now as far as her phone logs to confront her when she gets home immediately.

 

Just a fair warning tho... She's going to deny this 100% and make you think it's all just harmless flirting and nothing more. Do NOT fall for this. The problem is that yo don't have a "smoking gun" to confront her with right now. Cheaters rely on this because they will only admit to what you can prove. And all you can prove now is that she's being a bit in appropriate with a co worker.

And believe me, she's going to be very convincing and she's going to cry. Crying is what makes you empathetic towards her and if you feel sorry for her then she's got you by the balls.

You need to 100% tell yourself that no matter what she says, you know she's been having an affair with this guy and you're not going to be the sucker who gets talked out of his belief

 

Option 2.

You call her up before she returns home, and say that you were really upset that she didn't contact you and "phone died" for the first time in your marriage while she was away on a trip. The whole point of this is to get her guard to lower and make her think you're not even considering her having an affair. Using the little argument about not calling or answering your calls is going to let her exhale and make her think you're still completely clueless to what she's doing.

 

Once that's smoothed over, it's time to get an investigator. No matter what you find in your own, there are people who do this for a living and will be able tk get you the evidence you need to support and 100% confirm your fears. It's worth the money, trust me. Would you rather have her get the house and half your savings in a divorce? Or would you rather keep your **** and pay a couple hundred bucks so you can have the evidence to show a court if things get messy?

Easy decision in my mind.

 

This option is definitely tougher and the slow play but it's the safer play too and will benefit you long term. The key is to make her think you're completely happy with her and unaware of anything.

 

 

Hang in there, it sucks so bad but you're not the first to go through it. Just try and remember that you aren't the reason she did this. Don't let her try and pawn that off on you. She's the *******.

Private investigator was the best money I ever spent. Quick, certain results with no risk of exposing myself.

[Try]

Found her itinerary for this trip.

It wasn't a business trip, it was a company fun trip before the holiday.

Apparently they were encouraged to bring their spouses. Funny how she left that little part out

You do not need any more evidence. She lied by omission so that she could go on this fun trip with the other man without you being there. There is no viable answer for her doing this except that she wanted to vacation with this other man instead of with you. That along with the other man's Facebook photos and videos with your wife and him together, and you know what is going on. End of story. Sorry.

[Cloudcuckoo]

Hero, I'm so terribly sad that you've had to follow your gut and you've ended up here, but it's a place where most really do know how you're feeling, and it's the club nobody wants to join.

 

I agree with everyone, your wife is sadly, I believe, involved with another man, and you must protect yourself from the vitriol that will follow your confronting her.

 

Take what you need from all posts.

 

Thinking of you and wishing you peace

 

Cuckoo

[kgcolonel]

Hero,

 

I am very sorry you're going through this...it's got to be heart wrenching. I applaud your strength in not being willing to take such crap.

 

The attorney is the right move now....you can file and serve her and see what comes from that. Don't take any excuses etc as a heartfelt remorsefulness as she certainly was remorseful when she excluded you from a family invited fun trip to be with her boy toy......you deserve better from your stbxw......I would have her things packed when she gets home and tell her to go stay with the BT. See what her reaction is to that....show her you mean business.

[Try]

Had a good P.I. recommended to me

Hire one for today in the city that she is vacationing with this other man in. Do this right now as you will not have a better opportunity to catch her in the act than today. Photos of them going into a hotel room with them staying there for hours or even over night nail things down.

[pteromom]

OK - a few things...

 

1- she probably is cheating on you. It is POSSIBLE she just has a crush on this guy or he is making her feel good, but unlikely given all you have shared.

 

2- there is no way for you to prove it. She is going to come home and deny, deny, deny, and it is an argument that can't be won because you have no PROOF. Your idea about hiring a PI is a good one. Because you shouldn't even accuse her until you have proof. Accusing her now is just going to give her the opportunity to hide evidence and get sneakier. If I were you, I would act normal when she gets home, and go about the business of enlisting help to get evidence.

 

3- no matter how angry you are at her, remember that being cool and thinking things through is the smartest route. There is a certain faction here on LS who have been wounded, cheated on, left...and they get a lot of satisfaction seeing cheating spouses get what is coming to them. The more brutal you are to her, the louder they will cheer. I understand that. But sometimes they want to see you get her, and don't realize it is at the expense of your own outcome. So have fun and engage in revenge fantasies, but when it comes to real life, be cool and deal in facts.

 

You didn't mention whether you have children, but if you do, that adds another layer of complexity to a delicate situation.

[Krashi]

Agree. This is one of your best opportunities to get concrete evidence. Time is of the essence.

Good job on quelling her concerns with the phone dying bit.

They are being very sloppy, especially the dumb ass guy, posting this shyte.

Very few relationships survive infidelity, an incredibly small % , despite the claims of the "pay for reconciliation services" businesses/sites. They have a strong profit motive to sell the " better . stronger marriage" fantasy.

Really sorry you are having this done to you. The pain and trauma are excruciating. Take care of yourself. I lost 47 lbs. in 2 months. Very hard on the body and psyche.

[Hero]

Hero

 

Just a question as to her perception of your concern. Is she leaving any messages or texts? What is the nature of these messages, this will give you some insight as to what she thinks you either know or suspect.

 

Already spoke to her on the phone, but here are a few of the messages she sent when I went dark on her

 

"hung up on me? that's real mature"

 

"I don't know what's going on in that head of yours, but your wife is trying to contact you"

 

"fine, be that way"

 

"why are you doing this?"

 

"I can't live like this"