What I've learned since joining LS:

[blind_otter]

I have notes all over my bathroom mirror. But they say things like "buy toilet paper" and "sell your ex's engagement ring"

[NTB]

Originally posted by blind_otter

I have notes all over my bathroom mirror. But they say things like "buy toilet paper" and "sell your ex's engagement ring"

 

that's a good idea

[tiki]

CIOC...I hope you don't come off like this in RL...where you obsess, and obsess, and obsess. You've gotta let it go! You're never gonna be a turn on to a woman at this rate! Even if you DO have pee wee's good looks!

 

LET. HER. GO.

 

You're starting to wear even ME out!!!!

 

Now go start life.

 

No more threads that have anything to do with this Rebekah girl. K??!!!

[ConfusedInOC]

Originally posted by tiki

CIOC...I hope you don't come off like this in RL...where you obsess, and obsess, and obsess. You've gotta let it go! You're never gonna be a turn on to a woman at this rate! Even if you DO have pee wee's good looks!

 

LET. HER. GO.

 

You're starting to wear even ME out!!!!

 

Now go start life.

 

No more threads that have anything to do with this Rebekah girl. K??!!!

 

I know you are trying to help but not everyone responds to a crises in their life the same. If my threads are wearing you out, help yourself out by not reading them

 

And she just IM'd me and I handled it brilliantly.

[dgiirl]

Hey, I did it. I went crazy when my stbxh left me. Mind you, I didnt see it coming, and we were married for 8 years, and I started getting anxiety attacks, so I wrote affirmations on a piece of paper to help me through the anxiety attacks. I only read it for a few weeks, then got sick of reading it.

 

Whatever makes you get through the pain, do it. Just start to really read the stuff, and believe it. Eventually you get sick of reading the self-help crap, and know it's already true, and you'll stop. A little bit of obsession is ok in the very early stages, but if you're continuing on the obsession, it's time to let things go. Relationships is not a science. As a programmer, I like to be in control of everything, but unfortunately, even if you "follow the rules", it doesnt gaurantee anything. Everyone likes something different. Maybe one girl will like flowers, another will like candy, another will like spending quality time together. One will like their mate to be protective, another will find it clingy/obsessive. Sometimes things just dont click, and that's ok. Eventually you'll find someone where things do click. Change the traits about yourself that _you_ want to. If you have an anger problem, or crying problem, or talkative problem, things that _you_ dont like about yourself, change them. But realize that this change STILL wont gaurantee every girl will like you.

 

And stop believing your a "nice guy". My ex thinks he's a "nice guy", but he's an arrogant ass at the same time

[ConfusedInOC]

Originally posted by dgiirl

And stop believing your a "nice guy". My ex thinks he's a "nice guy", but he's an arrogant ass at the same time

 

I no longer think of myself as a "nice guy", I now think of myself as "kind." Big difference. You can be kind and still be good to yourself. "Nice guys" don't know how to be good to themselves and therefore are not kind. They are "self serving."

 

And I know exactly why you say that about your ex. Think "covert contracts" and you'll have the answer.

[tiki]

Originally posted by ConfusedInOC

And she just IM'd me and I handled it brilliantly.

 

I see you've come so far. She's still IMing you.

[alphamale]

Originally posted by ConfusedInOC

"Nice guys" don't know how to be good to themselves and therefore are not kind. They are "self serving."

yes and women know this instinctiviely and that is why they have zero respect for "nice guys". see....normal guys or bad boys fend for their own needs and are more open and honest in dealing with women. "nice guy" puts up this front and women can see thru the fakeness.

 

the woman knows that "nice guy" want to sleep with her but he keeps on saying "oh, no, not me, you are pristine woman, we be friend, I no sleep with you"

 

"nice guy" is full of shyt and too weak to look out for himself and his wants and desires and gets trampled on by everyone, including females

[dgiirl]

Originally posted by ConfusedInOC

I no longer think of myself as a "nice guy", I now think of myself as "kind." Big difference. You can be kind and still be good to yourself. "Nice guys" don't know how to be good to themselves and therefore are not kind. They are "self serving."

 

And I know exactly why you say that about your ex. Think "covert contracts" and you'll have the answer.

 

Interesting... maybe a nice xmas present for my ex, what was this book called? lol

[ConfusedInOC]

Originally posted by alphamale

yes and women know this instinctiviely and that is why they have zero respect for "nice guys". see....normal guys or bad boys fend for their own needs and are more open and honest in dealing with women. "nice guy" puts up this front and women can see thru the fakeness.

 

the woman knows that "nice guy" want to sleep with her but he keeps on saying "oh, no, not me, you are pristine woman, we be friend, I no sleep with you"

 

"nice guy" is full of shyt and too weak to look out for himself and his wants and desires and gets trampled on by everyone, including females

 

Exactly. That's what "No More Mr. Nice Guy" teaches you. If you respect yourself, if you aren't self-serving, then you will gain her respect as you won't be conciously or subconciously manipulating her.

 

Women aren't stupid. They know when they are being manipulated. They don't like feeling guilty when a self-serving "nice guy" does things for them under the toolage of "covert contracts" (doing nice things for someone and expecting something nice in return, but not telling them).

 

The book also places a lot of emphasis on setting boundaries and making sure there are consequences for your OS crossing them.

 

Replace NICE with KIND and that's the direction I am headed. You can be kind without being soft, clingy, self-serving or wimpy.

[ConfusedInOC]

Originally posted by dgiirl

Interesting... maybe a nice xmas present for my ex, what was this book called? lol

 

"No More Mr. Nice Guy" - Robert A. Glover

 

I highly recommend it for curing the "Nice Guy" syndrome and being comfortable with yourself and accepting who you are, warts and all.

[blind_otter]

My Dad always said, if you don't respect yourself, how can you expect anyone else to respect you?

 

You've come a long way, baby!

[ConfusedInOC]

Originally posted by blind_otter

My Dad always said, if you don't respect yourself, how can you expect anyone else to respect you?

 

You've come a long way, baby!

 

Merci beaucoup, Blind Otter.

 

Though the helpful advice I have gotten from LS, my Counselor and God's grace, I learned to be patient, to have the intestinal fortitude to suck it up and fix what is broken and to stop blaming everyone else for my problems.

 

Once I understood that, changing my old ways was easier than I thought. Knowing and understanding is most of the battle.

 

(PS: Doesn't hurt to have those sticky notes posted everywhere I go to keep my mind focused and to make it a permanent change)

[BrotherAaron]

Just dont bring any girls home... they'll see those notes everywhere and run off

[alphamale]

Originally posted by ConfusedInOC

Replace NICE with KIND and that's the direction I am headed. You can be kind without being soft, clingy, self-serving or wimpy.

actually one can be a very nice person who at the same time keeps their dignity and self-respect and is tough also. thing is that to be like this you must have intellect....intellect is the key to all.

[ConfusedInOC]

Originally posted by alphamale

actually one can be a very nice person who at the same time keeps their dignity and self-respect and is tough also. thing is that to be like this you must have intellect....intellect is the key to all.

 

Of course you do. But to have diginity and self-respect requires you meet your own needs first and not expect someone else to meet them for you. That's where self-serving comes in from being a nice guy and creates animosity and a lack of respect.

 

But you don't have to be a genius for that. You just have to be comfortable with your own shell, your own masculinity and be good to yourself. Just doing to will automatically make you attractive to others.

[BigB]

Can you define this "covert contracts" term. I don't quit get what that means.

 

me thinks I should read that book...

[BigB]

Originally posted by ReluctantRomeo

You're an inspiration.

 

And - whether I agree with your POV or not - I always find your threads stimulating and thoughtful.

 

Agreed.

[ConfusedInOC]

Originally posted by BigB

Can you define this "covert contracts" term. I don't quit get what that means.

 

A "covert contract" is when a "nice guy" does many nice things for someone. He does this so that he will get something nice in return. It's called "covert" because only HE knows he is doing this. Consciously or not.

 

In my case, I was showering my ex with love in the hopes she would love me back in return. The problem was, I didn't tell her why I was doing this and she had no clue why I was "overbearing" and "clingy." And it wasn't just love, it was gifts (albeit gifts she NEEDED, not luxuries). And when I didn't get anything back in return, I was confused. I didn't understand.

 

You see, my Ex wasn't ready for the level and pace of where I wanted the relationship to go. I was trying to control the relationship instead of letting it happen naturally. She was breaking my "covert contract" in my mind, but of course, she didn't know anything about it. I didn't even know I was consciously doing this, by the way.

 

An opposite, but equally damaging effect of this is I would not accept her "gifts" of affection to me. For instance, one day she wanted to make me breakfast. Well, she made French toast and used only one pan, so it was coming along slowly. The toast was getting cold at this pace so she told me "Go ahead and eat." I ate fast and rushed to the kitchen to relieve her. In the process, I completely ignored that she was doing something nice for me and rushed to do something nice for her in return. In her mind, I was completely blowing her off and basically proved to her I was NUTS! And she was right.

 

I had no clue of the damage and strain I was causing on the relationship. I was so uncomfortable with myself that I not only over-compensated, I wouldn't even accept her gestures of love. That tells you how poorly I thought of myself. I had no sense of self worth and she could feel it. What a fool I was.

 

me thinks I should read that book...

 

You will be a changed man once you do.

 

"No More Mr. Nice Guy" - Robert A Glover. Really cheap online in hard cover. Not a long book, easy to read and follow, and it's in laymen's terms so any guy can understand.

[RecordProducer]

Originally posted by ConfusedInOC

Nice guys are wimps (sad, but true) no matter how "buff" they look.

 

Why don't you simply call them wimps?! Cuz nice sounds too nice. I love nice guys, but not wimps. Those are two completely different things.

I guess it's easier to say that your GF left you cuz you're a nice guy than because she didn't like you. You know what? My ex-husband left me and I was hiding that fact from people, because I felt ashamed and humiliated. Whenever someone you love leaves you, your self-esteem goes down and blinks red. You think you're worth nothing.

Your last few threads are about persuading yourself that you ARE worth something. Of course you are! This has nothing to do with you being nice or a wimp. I am sure you're not a wimp and you definitely have to stay nice.

You don't need to change yourself. I was humiliating myself in my marriage in many ways, but I've learned the lesson and won't do it in the future. I will simply not use the same behavior; and if someone makes me feel bad I will remove them from my life rather than change my whole personality and lose my self-esteem again. By changing your very core, you're losing a great deal of you and actually become a wimp.

You will never change. You can't turn a guitar into a violin. You can only cure the symptoms. But if you become (act) "tough and self-confident" you will only seem rude and selfish. That will definitely attract the wrong kind of women, the women with issues and emotional baggage. They won't be meek to you, especially not when they figure you out. What so hard or wrong about being yourself and finding someone who will appreciate that?

Just move on with your life and stop reading these books and articles!

What kind of a stupid title is it anyway "No More Nice Guys"?!?!

Does America move towards teaching people to be mean, evil, and rude? Cuz that's the opposite of being nice!

By the way, my BF showers me with attention and affection and gifts too, yet I don't take him for granted and I love that he does that. It's one of the reasons why I fell in love with me. And although I know he is doing it to control the situation (make me love him), I don't mind it because it's being done out of love.

[ConfusedInOC]

Originally posted by RecordProducer

Why don't you simply call them wimps?! Cuz nice sounds too nice. I love nice guys, but not wimps. Those are two completely different things.

I guess it's easier to say that your GF left you cuz you're a nice guy than because she didn't like you. You know what? My ex-husband left me and I was hiding that fact from people, because I felt ashamed and humiliated. Whenever someone you love leaves you, your self-esteem goes down and blinks red. You think you're worth nothing.

Your last few threads are about persuading yourself that you ARE worth something. Of course you are! This has nothing to do with you being nice or a wimp. I am sure you're not a wimp and you definitely have to stay nice.

You don't need to change yourself. I was humiliating myself in my marriage in many ways, but I've learned the lesson and won't do it in the future. I will simply not use the same behavior; and if someone makes me feel bad I will remove them from my life rather than change my whole personality and lose my self-esteem again. By changing your very core, you're losing a great deal of you and actually become a wimp.

You will never change. You can't turn a guitar into a violin. You can only cure the symptoms. But if you become (act) "tough and self-confident" you will only seem rude and selfish. That will definitely attract the wrong kind of women, the women with issues and emotional baggage. They won't be meek to you, especially not when they figure you out. What so hard or wrong about being yourself and finding someone who will appreciate that?

Just move on with your life and stop reading these books and articles!

What kind of a stupid title is it anyway "No More Nice Guys"?!?!

Does America move towards teaching people to be mean, evil, and rude? Cuz that's the opposite of being nice!

By the way, my BF showers me with attention and affection and gifts too, yet I don't take him for granted and I love that he does that. It's one of the reasons why I fell in love with me. And although I know he is doing it to control the situation (make me love him), I don't mind it because it's being done out of love.

 

I'm not changing myself. I am changing how I "see" myself. Maybe that isn't coming across in the message. When you value yourself (not by becoming self centered and egotistical, but by realizing you are important and have needs too) you become the kind of person that is fun to be with. There is no hidden agendas. You can still be kind and nice without being a pushover or have some kind of hidden agenda.

 

That's all I want to change. Well, I do need to embrace my masculinity and not be ashamed of it. My mom taught me "men were evil" because she had been mistreated by both her husbands. My mom is loving, caring and giving and they took advantage of her. When I was a kid I remember saying to myself "I'll never be like those jerks" and in the process, I lost some of my masculinity. I became kindler, gentler and really, not much of a man. Even though I was a Marine and was tough, it still didn't make me embrace my masculinity.

 

What I am trying to say, RP, is that it's hardly a total makeover what is in process right now. It's learning that I am loved and appreciated already for who I am, not what I can do for people. It's learning that I don't need "covert contracts" as I really don't need to manipulate people. It's learning to accept love and appreciation when people give it to me because I deserve it. I am not a bad person, I've just been telling myself for years that I was inadequate -- of less value than others. It's that thought process that molded me into the "nice guy's finish last" kind of guy.

 

Nobody wants to be around someone who doesn't value themselves. It's negative energy, it isn't sexy and it's the cause of why so many "nice guys" get dumped. They just don't value themselves.

 

Am I making my point a bit easier to understand? It's not a makeover, it's simply understanding that it's OK for me to be loved, that I am not a bad person and that it's ok to be good to myself too.

[jellybean]

Originally posted by jellybean

Hi ConfusedInOC,

 

I have a question for you : have you revealed your internet addiction to your therapist yet?.......just a couple of examples : May 24th - 41 posts, May 25th - 44 posts.

 

Time to unplug the computer sweetie, and let the real healing begin.

 

Yes, I'm quoting myself - and I know it looks stupid.

 

But I just couldn't help but notice - today you only posted ONCE!!!

 

YES!..now THIS is being on the road to recovery. It's like you replaced one addiction ('her') with another - the internet.

 

'real life' is calling your name...it's time to participate again...you'll still be in some emotional pain, and go through the various stages of grieving because of lost love, but you must stop shielding yourself from the world behind a computer screen, and using a keyboard as your primary method of communicating with people.

 

It's actually impeding the healing process - and I know damn well your therapist would strongly disapprove if she knew you were doing this.

 

P.S. I know about the pain and obsession - I've been in your shoes.

[greenhorn]

Hi All

 

Well seems CIOC has done a lot of reading stuff, I read through all the posts, it is one such thread where every reply makes sense and some point.

 

CIOC, just wanted to clarify some of the points from the book, I don't think I will be able to read that book.

 

You said " Nice Guys" do things for their gf and make them feel guilty? What does this mean ? Doing something which your ex didn't ask , or something which she asked ?

 

Like if your ex needed some help, she got stranded some place in the middle of night, you went there to pick her up and drop her home, or something like you bought her a expensive pendant, which she didn't ask of course?

 

My juvenile analysis till this point, tells me that when you say " Nice guys " it means those who just want to serenade their gf with 'helps' and ' gifts' to get gratitude in the form of love. Did I get it correct ??

 

My personal point should be that a true love will be when you are loved as a person without the embellishments of a good job, good career, good car or loads of money. I also think that in true love you do help your gf not to make her feel guilty, but for the simple reason that you care about her.

[ConfusedInOC]

Originally posted by jellybean

Yes, I'm quoting myself - and I know it looks stupid.

 

But I just couldn't help but notice - today you only posted ONCE!!!

 

YES!..now THIS is being on the road to recovery. It's like you replaced one addiction ('her') with another - the internet.

 

'real life' is calling your name...it's time to participate again...you'll still be in some emotional pain, and go through the various stages of grieving because of lost love, but you must stop shielding yourself from the world behind a computer screen, and using a keyboard as your primary method of communicating with people.

 

It's actually impeding the healing process - and I know damn well your therapist would strongly disapprove if she knew you were doing this.

 

P.S. I know about the pain and obsession - I've been in your shoes.

 

Just got back from a 260 mile motorcycle ride, a band audition and a party.

 

You hardly know me.

 

You should spend more time helping yourself instead of being concerned about me. One more for the ignore list.

[ConfusedInOC]

Originally posted by greenhorn

Hi All

 

Well seems CIOC has done a lot of reading stuff, I read through all the posts, it is one such thread where every reply makes sense and some point.

 

Lots of reading and lots of self-reflection. I run everything by my therapist to make sure that I am not taking something negative from what I am learning. She did approve of both books.

 

CIOC, just wanted to clarify some of the points from the book, I don't think I will be able to read that book.

 

Why not?

 

You said " Nice Guys" do things for their gf and make them feel guilty? What does this mean ? Doing something which your ex didn't ask , or something which she asked ?

 

Covert Contracts. It's when the 'nice guy' does something nice for someone, that wasn't asked, in anticipation something nice will be done for them in return. Read up on my explanation to BigB. It's in the book and worth reading both of them. Both books talk about setting boundaries as well. This is essential in gaining respect, which in turn precedes love.

 

Like if your ex needed some help, she got stranded some place in the middle of night, you went there to pick her up and drop her home, or something like you bought her a expensive pendant, which she didn't ask of course?

 

No. If your SO asks for help, it's good and kind of you to oblige. It's when they aren't asking for help and you offer it anyway that starts the unnecessary pressure. You're offering tons of help and they feel almost "obligated" to do something in return.

 

My juvenile analysis till this point, tells me that when you say " Nice guys " it means those who just want to serenade their gf with 'helps' and ' gifts' to get gratitude in the form of love. Did I get it correct ??

 

Pretty close. Most nice guys aren't even aware they are doing it.

 

My personal point should be that a true love will be when you are loved as a person without the embellishments of a good job, good career, good car or loads of money. I also think that in true love you do help your gf not to make her feel guilty, but for the simple reason that you care about her.

 

I did everything for my ex because I loved her. I never expected anything back other than the "hope" she would love the guy I was. She felt the "pressure" to love me and I never let up. It's no wonder she took off the first chance she could. She needed breathing room.