The other man holds all the cards

[SincereOnlineGuy]

 

I can't agree with that position for the simple fact that I believe that women are free moral agents, they're capable of "falling from grace" just like men are and they don't need a big bad man to "make" them do it either. Wives don't only cheat on "bad" husbands, I know from people in my own life that this is simply not always the case.

 

 

 

What you believe is not relevant to the reality at hand.

 

 

One need only consider religion to derive that obvious truth.

 

 

The ONLY reason women willingly cheat (carefully eliminate persons too inebriated to give consent, or even know what they're doing from the rolls of the willing) is because the male who did indeed have all the cards showed little or no interest IN those cards.

 

 

Women can get sex whenever they want it, and if their priorities were your perception OF their priorities, they would be out getting easy sex all the time.

[minimariah]

My life experience tells me the exact opposite.

 

you're making one huge mistake - you're trying to turn YOUR life EXPERIENCE into some kind of norm... into a FACT. and that's not how it works - because for every example you give me that confirms your theory... i can give you at least three that will prove you wrong.

 

you turned your own opinion based on your own limited experiences (we all have limited experiences) into some kind of formula & presented it as a fact that is supposed to be true for EVERYONE... it's not even true for MOST, let alone for everyone.

 

...I believe that most couples at least attempt to reconcile and even those who don't make it, it's pretty rare that they continue the relationship with the AP and when they do the relationship usually peters out after a relatively short amount of time.

 

at my workplace (around 50 people employed in my section) = 4 couples i know of who started out as affair partners, married more than 15 years... all of them. my father and his affair partner nearing 20 years together. both of my uncles and their affair partners over 25 years together. my best friend and her husband started out as affair partners - almost 10 years married with a kid. her grandpa is married to his AP for over 50 years now. just in my street - 2 couples i know of who divorced for each other, together for a little more than 5 years. those are impressive numbers for such a limited environment, don't you think?

 

people leave for their affair partners and have long and successful relationships with them far more often than one would like to think.

 

Men are window shopping, women are test driving to see if they could safely trade in the old model for the new one.

 

so... you have never heard about a man leaving his 50+ years old wife with kids to run off with a 20 something year old, young and sexy model...? come on. if i had a penny every single time i heard about it - i'd be Bill Gates rich by now.

 

even evolutionary psychology agrees that MEN are actually far more likely to trade in the old model for a new one - when was the last time you heard about a woman running of and starting a new life with a 15 years younger man?

 

My point is that tons of people place their sense of duty/obligation over their romantic feelings.

 

you pretty much said the same thing i did - it wasn't that earth shattering if it can't win over duty and obligation... especially in today's world when leaving a marriage had never been easier.

 

As far as her having a healthy romantic life with her husband after experiencing an exciting whirlwind love affair with her OM I would be highly suspicious about that claim.

 

not every affair is a blissful, once in a lifetime, earth shattering experience. in fact, many affairs can actually make you appreciate what you took for granted a lot more - with that, a new wind of sexual excitement comes along and it can be pretty incredible.

 

and one more thing - you assume that woman cheats on a man who is BETA and inferior in her eyes... that's wrong. women can and do cheat on men who they actually think of as TOO GOOD for them - they don't feel worthy of them so they punish themselves with an inferior OM. it happens quite a lot.

 

But that's just it, she didn't want "Woody Allen" ever, she always wanted "Brad Pitt", she married "Woody" cause he seemed like the safe option to start a family with.

 

nope.

 

in reality - FEW people settle and we mostly marry those we love and think are The One for us AT THAT POINT in time. but love does die out - when it's not nurtured. someone having an affair does not mean that they settled or that the affair person was someone they waited their entire lives on.

 

you created this kind of scenario for yourself = poor married woman marries some geek, has 2.5 kids with him and lives a boring life and then meets Mr Sexy and Hot Business Christian Grey Dude who rocks her world and shows her what she was missing and REALLY wanted all this time and she is now completely addicted and at his mercy. if he rejects her, the poor married woman goes back to her married boring life but if he says YES! she comes running to him without a second thought.

 

not only that's it wrong - it's actually extremely misogynistic. you turned women into some kind of poor souls who depend on a Man's mercy.

 

i'm very interested to know about the motives behind this story line.

Edited November 28, 2015 by minimariah

[road]

Absolutely, but so many WW's(as well as many single OW) actually believe they will be able to run away with the OM/MM. Which is just ridiculous on their part, particularly on the part of the WW's. Any OM who actually possesses those qualities that would lead a WW to want to run away with him is never gonna do so due to his belief that he can do better than her. In short, what OM who has the appearance,finances,charm etc. to convince MW to sleep with him is gonna give that lifestyle up to play step dad to kids who hate him, tolerate dealing with a (understandably)vengeful BH and other drama just to shack up with a middle aged adulteress? In the OM's eyes the WW is beneath him, he has what he considers a great life, he's not gonna throw that away to be her KISA.

 

 

Problem when dealing in absolutes, you will be absolutely wrong too many times.

 

 

Many OM just want some side action and are not going to divorce their BW just to marry their OW. Matter of fact this is demonstrated why exposure is so effective in causing the OM to drop the WW. Exposure makes dealing with her a problem. He will just go find another MW to be come his next OW.

 

 

So as you see it has nothing to do with the OM thinking he can do better.

 

 

Also many OM do not want to give up their OW.

[Got it]

Then I don't think your situation is what I'm talking about since you sound like you were gonna divorce your husband regardless of whether there was an OM in the picture or not, unless I'm misunderstanding you.

 

 

That't not all of it, but it's a part of what I'm saying. Most married women(especially those with kids) are not completely without prudence. It's pretty rare that she's gonna leave a stable home with a decent husband/father/provider for her kids to be with a guy that's not even able to take care of himself let alone play step daddy to her offspring. I'm not saying it never happens(there are some crazy ass people out there) but it's not very common.

 

So if the OM is a "bum" per se, or if he was just using her for sex then what else is she gonna do? She didn't just want a divorce(to be single) she wanted another man. I forget who I heard this analogy from(I think it was a poster on here) so I'll have to paraphrase, but WW's are sort of like monkeys swinging from tree to tree, they're not gonna let go of the vine that they're already holding until they're certain they've got a firm grip on the next one and they want to be sure that when they let go of the first one they're not gonna find themselves in free fall due to grabbing a "faulty vine". They're very analytical/methodical like that. Whereas WH's are more like pigs at the trough, just gorging themselves on whatever happens to be lying in there without a care in the world.(the pig analogy was mine btw.)

 

But your whole premise is the idea that a woman is going to leave solely based on whether or not there is a guy, and the quality of the guy, in the wings. And that isn't true. Since women are the primary filers of divorce, it stands to reason, that even within this narrow construct of departure, they are leaving to just leave. Whether or not they think their AP is worthy of a long term relationship is not always paramount. Sometimes it is a bit of side candy and that is the role he is designed to play.

 

And you are also only giving two types of men, both extremes. Men fall into a very wide spectrum of positive and negative attributes so there is more than just the "bum" and the "alpha/producer" types.

 

And my scenario isn't all that different in regards to most women are more likely to be considering divorce at the point they decide to have an affair so where I was with my feelings towards my marriage are not that far outside of the norm. I probably was able to move faster/easier but that is secondary.

 

I am not saying there aren't WW who won't leave one port without another one in view. But this is not always the case. And while they may think/like to have a relationship with the AP, this doesn't mean that the whole decision to divorce hinges on this.

 

And the same for WH. Some, yes, are opportunists. Some are not. Some are looking to divorce, some are looking for a soft landing, some are looking for their next relationship before pulling the plug.

 

There are so many different types of people, with so many different types of mental/emotional constructs, that trying to cookie cut them into a couple boxes isn't going to work.

 

Sometimes the OM does hold a lot of the cards. Some times he is just a puppet. Sometimes it is in the middle. Sometimes it has nothing to do with either.

[dichotomy]

Women cheat for all sorts of reasons, just like men do.

 

Many times in both men and women it simply comes down to cake eaters. Or wanting apples AND oranges - or thinking they can only be an orange outside the marriage. If you get what I mean.

 

I have learned to hold my own cards. I don't care anymore what deck others think they are playing with.

[Horton]

Then divorce your WS, move on and don't get back with them.

I can't imagine being truly content with the leftover scraps from the table and that goes for BH's and OW who in many ways are both being relegated to the backup quarterback position, although only one of them made the decision to get into that position knowing full well what the "deal" was. However I think many BH's are in a bad spot since they know what will likely happen to them in the divorce since many nation's laws in that matter are somewhat archaic(still operating under the notion that a woman cannot support herself.)

 

What you believe is not relevant to the reality at hand.

 

 

One need only consider religion to derive that obvious truth.

 

 

The ONLY reason women willingly cheat (carefully eliminate persons too inebriated to give consent, or even know what they're doing from the rolls of the willing) is because the male who did indeed have all the cards showed little or no interest IN those cards.

 

 

Women can get sex whenever they want it, and if their priorities were your perception OF their priorities, they would be out getting easy sex all the time.

 

I don't believe sex is cheating women's highest priority, more like the cherry on top. They want a reliable OM, whose got a lot of things going for him(career, looks, sexuality etc.) but if he's not reliable they're generally not gonna throw their lot in with him. Sometimes they deceive themselves into thinking they can change him, mold him into their new man, but that doesn't actually work. As far as women only cheating on men who have failed them in some way, we'll just have to agree to disagree. I know of too many good BH's and have read too many FWW's own accounts where they admit that their husband was nothing but kind and supportive of them and that they had no "reason" to cheat on them.

 

not only that's it wrong - it's actually extremely misogynistic.

 

As I was reading your post I was thinking about what I was going to say in response to each point you had made(as I tend to do) and then I came to the bottom of it and realized it would be a waste of words. When people start throwing out the "ism" accusations(sexism,racism etc.) they're not interested in having an open and honest discussion, but are in actuality attempting to discredit the speaker on a personal level rather than disproving the speaker's argument. Alinsky shaming tactics 101.

 

Problem when dealing in absolutes, you will be absolutely wrong too many times.

 

I never intended to paint this as absolute my good man. I always conceded that there are exceptions to the rule.

Many OM just want some side action and are not going to divorce their BW just to marry their OW. Matter of fact this is demonstrated why exposure is so effective in causing the OM to drop the WW. Exposure makes dealing with her a problem. He will just go find another MW to be come his next OW.

 

100% agree with this.

 

So as you see it has nothing to do with the OM thinking he can do better.

 

The OM is not always married though and when you have a single OM he is bound to believe that he can do better than the WW. He already has those qualities(whatever they may be) that "tempted" the WW to switch sides in the first place so of course he believes he can find a better woman(one who would never cheat on her own husband and betray her family.) Now does this make the OM a hypocrite, sure why not.

Also many OM do not want to give up their OW.

 

I think you're talking about WH's now and yes some of them will keep going back to the OW for the high/sex she can provide, but I believe that most WH's when faced with the reality of losing his wife and kids, will drop the OW like a bad habit. Are there exceptions, absolutely, but it's proven to be the rule(IMO) by the enormous amount of OW on boards like this who have been cast aside by their MM when he is "forced" to make a decision.

 

But your whole premise is the idea that a woman is going to leave solely based on whether or not there is a guy, and the quality of the guy, in the wings. And that isn't true. Since women are the primary filers of divorce, it stands to reason, that even within this narrow construct of departure, they are leaving to just leave. Whether or not they think their AP is worthy of a long term relationship is not always paramount. Sometimes it is a bit of side candy and that is the role he is designed to play.

 

We're talking apples and oranges now. A woman who leaves her marriage for nobody(some are abused by their husbands others are simply walkaway wives) and a woman who leaves her marriage for another man are in two completely different categories IMO. One is trying to "trade up" while the other just wants to start her life over or get away from an abuser. Women who cheat like men cheat(side candy as you put it) are a rarity, most women naturally want one man for the rest of their lives, while most men have an innate desire to pursue several women(that doesn't mean that's it's not immoral btw since nature doesn't automatically equal righteous behavior)

 

Lot's of bad things come natural to humans, but my point is that married women who just want some "side" are not the norm and when a BH finds himself with a WW who cheats for the "thrill" or just to get side sex, he's likely married to a woman who has some serious childhood trauma that she's acting out in her adult years. Women by and large don't enjoy being "used" by several different men unless there's something deeply wrong with them IMO.

 

And you are also only giving two types of men, both extremes. Men fall into a very wide spectrum of positive and negative attributes so there is more than just the "bum" and the "alpha/producer" types.

 

And my scenario isn't all that different in regards to most women are more likely to be considering divorce at the point they decide to have an affair so where I was with my feelings towards my marriage are not that far outside of the norm. I probably was able to move faster/easier but that is secondary.

I just don't agree that they're the all that similar since the motive for getting the divorce is so much different.

 

I am not saying there aren't WW who won't leave one port without another one in view. But this is not always the case. And while they may think/like to have a relationship with the AP, this doesn't mean that the whole decision to divorce hinges on this.

 

It doesn't always hinge on that, but it usually does from what I've seen. The only thing that changes matters on a somewhat regular basis is when the WW has a sudden bout of conscience and realized she's gonna hurt her BH and kids more than she can bear to live with, but as I said that's not staying out of love so much as out of obligation.

And the same for WH. Some, yes, are opportunists. Some are not. Some are looking to divorce, some are looking for a soft landing, some are looking for their next relationship before pulling the plug.

 

There are so many different types of people, with so many different types of mental/emotional constructs, that trying to cookie cut them into a couple boxes isn't going to work.

 

Sometimes the OM does hold a lot of the cards. Some times he is just a puppet. Sometimes it is in the middle. Sometimes it has nothing to do with either.

 

Sometimes yes, but the majority of times no. Like I stated before there are always exceptions to the rule, but too many people just dismiss the actual evidence that we do have(namely boards like this one) that prove that these relationships tend to follow a pattern and act like because they know some people who don't fit into that box it means nobody does. That's simply not a logical conclusion when we have an overwhelming amount of people who have given their stories and we can see that they almost always fall into the "paint by numbers" style of affairs.

 

Women cheat for all sorts of reasons, just like men do.

 

They do cheat for all sorts of reasons, but most of them cheat for the same reasons that other people in their gender also cheated for. If they don't then why do their "reasons" for cheating on their BS tend to follow the same pattern as other cheaters of the same gender?

 

Many times in both men and women it simply comes down to cake eaters. Or wanting apples AND oranges - or thinking they can only be an orange outside the marriage. If you get what I mean.

 

I don't believe most WW's are cake eaters though. I think cake eater is the perfect description for most WH's but I think WW's are best described as "test drivers" they try out a potential replacement husband and depending on the circumstances(the OM's reliability as a replacement/the OM's sincerity in wanting her as a wife) she will decide to stay or go based on that, or more often than not the OM makes this decision for her when she realizes that he wasn't actually pursuing a "real" relationship with her but rather enjoying some cake himself.

 

I have learned to hold my own cards. I don't care anymore what deck others think they are playing with.

 

I believe that most BH's are unfairly placed in a lose-lose scenario(the Kobayashi Maru) by their cheating wife due to a plethora of outside factors that BH's have little to no control over, this is my primary point. The OM only holds the cards cause the WW took her BH's cards and gave them to the OM expecting/hoping that he would "make an honest woman of her" and when he didn't fulfill his side of their agreement she will run back to her BH(if he'll have her) and now the BH is left with two unenviable options. Stay with her and be her backup plan or leave her and split up their children's home and walk into enemy territory in the family court systems. I believe that not only is he sitting at the table without a decent hand to play, but in many cases his own hands are tied behind his back.

[Got it]

Horton,

 

You have a preconceived assumption and want to back everything out of that. So no matter what anyone says to the contrary you arent interested in hearing because you are dead set on your conclusion.

 

You are greatly underestimating women on sex especially if you don't think that plays a big factor in why and interest in cheating. Good sex, unless they are only wanting an emotional affair is a big piece.I know for myself, good sex was a major factor. He was initially just going to be a fling. Attraction/sexual appeal is the beginning of most affairs. And no, I had no childhood trauma. I had a bad sex life in my marriage and my attraction to my AP was off the chart. The chemistry roced me back on my heels and, having had sex with only one person, deciding to have sex with someone else was a major decision. Of course I have now had sex with two people and married both of them.

 

You have a very specific and I find insulting view of women and their sexual desires. Pursuing sex does not mean being used. This is a very insulting view to have. Women can be very comfortable with sex and having consensual sex is for both parties. Not as a victim in some weird set up.

 

So believe what you want. Of course you have many women telling you otherwise but you must be right and most know better.

[Horton]

Horton,

 

You have a preconceived assumption and want to back everything out of that. So no matter what anyone says to the contrary you arent interested in hearing because you are dead set on your conclusion.

 

Labeling somebody's thoughts/beliefs as "assumptions" is a passive-aggressive way of dismissing a person as ignorant. Just because a person doesn't agree with your view doesn't mean that they have a lack of knowledge and are just making things up. Do you see what you've done with this post? You insult me and then go on to label my views as "insulting" two paragraphs later.

You are greatly underestimating women on sex especially if you don't think that plays a big factor in why and interest in cheating. Good sex, unless they are only wanting an emotional affair is a big piece.I know for myself, good sex was a major factor. He was initially just going to be a fling. Attraction/sexual appeal is the beginning of most affairs. And no, I had no childhood trauma. I had a bad sex life in my marriage and my attraction to my AP was off the chart. The chemistry roced me back on my heels and, having had sex with only one person, deciding to have sex with someone else was a major decision. Of course I have now had sex with two people and married both of them.

 

It seems like you just cannot accept the fact that you're in the minority. Most WW's and FWW's claim that they didn't cheat to get more sex, you might have, but most of them didn't. Unless most WW's who do post their stories are just lying to everybody about the sexual aspect of their affair I'm gonna have to accept that this is the general consensus.

You have a very specific and I find insulting view of women and their sexual desires. Pursuing sex does not mean being used. This is a very insulting view to have. Women can be very comfortable with sex and having consensual sex is for both parties. Not as a victim in some weird set up.

 

Once again you misconstrue what I actually said. I didn't say that women who enjoy sex are all being used or that they're victims. Here's my quote from my previous post.

 

"my point is that married women who just want some "side" are not the norm and when a BH finds himself with a WW who cheats for the "thrill" or just to get side sex, he's likely married to a woman who has some serious childhood trauma that she's acting out in her adult years. Women by and large don't enjoy being "used" by several different men unless there's something deeply wrong with them IMO."

 

Do you honestly not see how much you've taken what I actually said out of context and twisted it into a straw man?

 

So believe what you want. Of course you have many women telling you otherwise but you must be right and most know better.

 

I have two women telling me that I'm wrong so far, one outright labeled me a "misogynist" and the other(that'd be you) basically said the same thing in a less abrasive way. If anything I've written in this thread would lead one to think I hate women then I guess I must truly despise men since I compared WH's to pigs at a trough but you didn't have anything to say about that. Personally if I had to guess I'd say something I wrote likely hit too close to home with your own situation. I could be wrong about it, but that's how it comes across to me, either way I enjoyed our discussion while it lasted.

[dichotomy]

Horton,

 

I can only say only that my WW did not fit within in your rules or observations, but within the ones I stated

 

There are always exceptions.

[MJJean]

I wasn't going to comnent, but I didn't fit into the OPs rules, either. Multiple affairs about sex for me, too. Even a hint of emotional involvement and I would end the affair so fast the APs head would spin.

[Horton]

Let me preface this by saying that these are my observations from seeing a pattern play out over and over again in just about every single situation I've ever come across. I'm not saying there are never any exceptions to the rule, but this is what I've always encountered.

 

This is literally the very first paragraph of the very first post in this thread...

 

What's the point of putting a disclaimer at the top of a thread if everybody just puts it on their pay no mind list?

 

I even reiterated multiple times in other posts that of course I believe that there are exceptions to the rule and that I wasn't describing every single affair that's ever occurred. Some of you are arguing against an imaginary person, since I never claimed the things you're ascribing to me.

[minimariah]

I even reiterated multiple times in other posts that of course I believe that there are exceptions to the rule and that I wasn't describing every single affair that's ever occurred.

 

but that's the problem -- you believe your experience to be some kind of RULE & the norm... and everything else that plays out differently is the EXCEPTION.

 

to many of us reading this thread - this "pattern" is actually the exception... not the rule. and i'm personally not so young + i have a lot of experience when it comes to infidelity due to the nature of my work.

 

so what happens now?

 

Alinsky shaming tactics 101.

 

it's called ad hominem.

 

not really sure how you expect folks to have an open and honest discussion when you insist on your limited life experiences to be the model for most affairs. people are telling you that you're wrong and you keep telling them that they are the exception.

 

besides -- nothing personal about you, but the story where a woman is window shopping her entire life and looking to upgrade to a better model DOES hold elements of misogyny. before you get offended and discredit it - read your posts again and think about it.

 

statistics show you that women are far more likely to walk first and less likely to remarry again. that means - women are far more in control and they actually leave with or without the affair partner when things get really bad.

Edited November 29, 2015 by minimariah

[road]

I wasn't going to comnent, but I didn't fit into the OPs rules, either. Multiple affairs about sex for me, too. Even a hint of emotional involvement and I would end the affair so fast the APs head would spin.

 

Were you a WW or single OW?

[Got it]

I have two women telling me that I'm wrong so far, one outright labeled me a "misogynist" and the other(that'd be you) basically said the same thing in a less abrasive way. If anything I've written in this thread would lead one to think I hate women then I guess I must truly despise men since I compared WH's to pigs at a trough but you didn't have anything to say about that. Personally if I had to guess I'd say something I wrote likely hit too close to home with your own situation. I could be wrong about it, but that's how it comes across to me, either way I enjoyed our discussion while it lasted.

 

Actually if you werent bent on this view of women you would have recalled I did call you out for your comment about men in an earlier post. But maybe that isn't actually your focus since you are focused on women disagreeing with you and how we must be wrong, mistaken, or not seeing the "big picture". I personally find your view on BH to be narrow minded and incorrect in a number of ways and how you think WW think and operate to be only a very narrow scope. You think your opinion to be the general one and we continue to say that is not the case. But you think everyone else is wrong and you are correct.

 

And no, you didn't hit close to home outside of another man assuming to understand women more than women do. Now THAT does hit close to home as a regular annoyance.

Edited November 29, 2015 by Got it

[MJJean]

Were you a WW or single OW?

 

I was a WW. This was during my first marriage.

[Horton]

but that's the problem -- you believe your experience to be some kind of RULE & the norm... and everything else that plays out differently is the EXCEPTION.

 

to many of us reading this thread - this "pattern" is actually the exception... not the rule. and i'm personally not so young + i have a lot of experience when it comes to infidelity due to the nature of my work.

 

so what happens now?

 

Alinsky shaming tactics 101.

 

it's called ad hominem.

 

I don't know why I'm still engaging with you since I'm pretty sure you'll just ignore what I'm saying and then attack what you "perceive" me to be saying again. I guess I'm a glutton for punishment so here it goes.

I skimmed through some of your threads to get an idea as to why you're so perturbed about my views and I realized that English is not your first language. My quote about "Alinsky shaming tactic" is in reference to Saul Alinsky, a well known agitator who wrote " the book" on discrediting an opponents character as a way to win an argument. For example, while arguing with a man one might accuse him of being a "misogynist".

not really sure how you expect folks to have an open and honest discussion when you insist on your limited life experiences to be the model for most affairs. people are telling you that you're wrong and you keep telling them that they are the exception.

 

You mean like you did here in your thread?

 

http://www.loveshack.org/forums/general/general-relationship-discussion/538950-do-most-affairs-go-undetected

 

Where you repeatedly insisted that...

 

"i think that, most of the time, when an A goes undetected... it IS detected but the spouse is ignoring it or just not paying attention."

 

In spite of other posters telling you that their experience was different you still maintained your initial stated viewpoint. Would you care to explain why I should recant my views just cause you and another poster disagree with me when you don't hold yourself to the same standard?

besides -- nothing personal about you, but the story where a woman is window shopping her entire life and looking to upgrade to a better model DOES hold elements of misogyny. before you get offended and discredit it - read your posts again and think about it.

 

statistics show you that women are far more likely to walk first and less likely to remarry again. that means - women are far more in control and they actually leave with or without the affair partner when things get really bad.

 

Again you twist my words into a straw man, in case you're not familiar with that term, here's the definition for you.

 

straw man

noun

noun: straw man; plural noun: straw men; noun: strawman; plural noun: strawmen

a person compared to a straw image; a sham.

a sham argument set up to be defeated.

 

In other words, you keep putting words in my mouth that I never actually said. I didn't say that married women are window shopping their entire life and looking to upgrade to a new model, I said that I believe that your adulteress friend likely fantasized about another man coming along and taking her away from her "average" husband some day. Here's the quote from my own post...

"But that's just it, she didn't want "Woody Allen" ever, she always wanted "Brad Pitt", she married "Woody" cause he seemed like the safe option to start a family with. She more than likely has always fantasized about her "perfect" OM coming along someday and saving her from the boring humdrum of living with a man she settled for. "

 

You keep twisting everything I say about a particular woman(your girlfriend) or about adulteresses in general as being an attack on ALL women which is ridiculous. You may not be aware of this, but most women don't cheat on their husbands those who do are in a sad and small minority of the female population. So when one says something critical about those women who do, they're not criticizing the character of over 3 billion women, only those who cheated. Happy now?

 

Actually if you werent bent on this view of women you would have recalled I did call you out for your comment about men in an earlier post. But maybe that isn't actually your focus since you are focused on women disagreeing with you and how we must be wrong, mistaken, or not seeing the "big picture".

 

I'm sorry I must have missed where you accused me of holding views about men which are "insulting" to all men.

 

I personally find your view on BH to be narrow minded and incorrect in a number of ways and how you think WW think and operate to be only a very narrow scope.

 

In what ways are my views about BH narrow minded and incorrect? Could you perhaps be more specific?

 

You think your opinion to be the general one and we continue to say that is not the case. But you think everyone else is wrong and you are correct.

 

Well we're all guilty of that aren't we? If you didn't think that I was wrong and that you were right then you wouldn't have had this discussion with me. Every person having an argument/debate believes that there viewpoint is the correct one or they wouldn't bother even arguing the point.

And no, you didn't hit close to home outside of another man assuming to understand women more than women do. Now THAT does hit close to home as a regular annoyance.

 

I don't know much about your story, I'll concede that, but if I'm not mistaken you were married, you had an affair, you divorced your husband and married your affair partner. Is that accurate? So I think it's not completely out of left field for me to think that just maybe you're taking my views a little personally. I acknowledged in my previous post that I could be wrong, but that was just how it was coming across to me.

[Got it]

Again you twist my words into a straw man, in case you're not familiar with that term, here's the definition for you.

 

straw man

noun

noun: straw man; plural noun: straw men; noun: strawman; plural noun: strawmen

a person compared to a straw image; a sham.

a sham argument set up to be defeated.

 

In other words, you keep putting words in my mouth that I never actually said. I didn't say that married women are window shopping their entire life and looking to upgrade to a new model, I said that I believe that your adulteress friend likely fantasized about another man coming along and taking her away from her "average" husband some day. Here's the quote from my own post...

"But that's just it, she didn't want "Woody Allen" ever, she always wanted "Brad Pitt", she married "Woody" cause he seemed like the safe option to start a family with. She more than likely has always fantasized about her "perfect" OM coming along someday and saving her from the boring humdrum of living with a man she settled for. "

 

You keep twisting everything I say about a particular woman(your girlfriend) or about adulteresses in general as being an attack on ALL women which is ridiculous. You may not be aware of this, but most women don't cheat on their husbands those who do are in a sad and small minority of the female population. So when one says something critical about those women who do, they're not criticizing the character of over 3 billion women, only those who cheated. Happy now?

 

 

 

I don't know much about your story, I'll concede that, but if I'm not mistaken you were married, you had an affair, you divorced your husband and married your affair partner. Is that accurate? So I think it's not completely out of left field for me to think that just maybe you're taking my views a little personally. I acknowledged in my previous post that I could be wrong, but that was just how it was coming across to me.

 

Horton, you think anyone who disagrees with you is taking it personally. I am not taking it personally. I am just debating and whiling away the time on a rainy weekend. Nothing more nothing less. I find holes in your logic and just discussing them. I would say that based on your need to minimize and diminish the people, their potential reasons/motives of those that disagree with you is more about you taking a simple debate far too personally. You seem, at least to me, to have a real need to be right. What is that about?

 

Unlike you, I have no interest in looking up someone's past posts, information, etc. I have no idea what your story is, where you stand, if you were a whatever, because for me this is just debating a topic. Have you wondered why you feel a need to invest so much time and energy into those that disagree with you?

 

And yes, I have actually stated in this thread that I had an affair, divorced and eventually married my AP. No digging was needed there. See I suspect you, and I know others, assume that those that have been an AP or married their AP have some level of residual guilt or something that they need to defend their reasoning as some way to color why they did what they did. I find that to be untrue, at least for myself, and own my reasons - good, bad or indifferent. I have no need to "prove" anything nor to defend anything. It is what it is, it was what it was, I have made peace with it, and life has continued on in a fairly lovely pace.

 

And yes I did post a comment to your view of WHs/men. And no, I don't feel I need to be right. I know my experience and the feedback from other women, but I also understand the gamut that WW will fall with in and so know that it is a wide spectrum.Whether or not you ever see it is really not a big deal to me. To each their own.

Edited November 29, 2015 by Got it

[Horton]

Horton, you think anyone who disagrees with you is taking it personally. I am not taking it personally. I am just debating and whiling away the time on a rainy weekend. Nothing more nothing less. I find holes in your logic and just discussing them. I would say that based on your need to minimize and diminish the people, their potential reasons/motives of those that disagree with you is more about you taking a simple debate far too personally. You seem, at least to me, to have a real need to be right. What is that about?

 

Unlike you, I have no interest in looking up someone's past posts, information, etc. I have no idea what your story is, where you stand, if you were a whatever, because for me this is just debating a topic. Have you wondered why you feel a need to invest so much time and energy into those that disagree with you?

 

And yes, I have actually stated in this thread that I had an affair, divorced and eventually married my AP. No digging was needed there. See I suspect you, and I know others, assume that those that have been an AP or married their AP have some level of residual guilt or something that they need to defend their reasoning as some way to color why they did what they did. I find that to be untrue, at least for myself, and own my reasons - good, bad or indifferent. I have no need to "prove" anything nor to defend anything. It is what it is, it was what it was, I have made peace with it, and life has continued on in a fairly lovely pace.

 

And yes I did post a comment to your view of WHs/men. And no, I don't feel I need to be right. I know my experience and the feedback from other women, but I also understand the gamut that WW will fall with in and so know that it is a wide spectrum.Whether or not you ever see it is really not a big deal to me. To each their own.

 

Somebody repeatedly paints me as pig headed since I didn't abandon my own views due to other posters telling me that their own personal experience doesn't match my "theory". I quote a thread were one of these posters does the same exact thing she accused me of doing and now instead of acknowledging the double standard you passive aggressively mock me for defending myself, hmm.

 

As far as you not feeling any guilt for what you did, lets just say that I've read enough of your advice on here to women in the midst of an affair to not at all be surprised that you sleep easy at night.

[sambolini]

The entire premise of this thread is that the OM holds all the cards. I disagree with that assertion.

 

My ex wife had an affair. I was presented with two choices:

 

1) Stay with a cheater

2) Divorce

 

Does the OM dictate which option I choose? No. I can weigh the consequences of each decision and decide which I feel is best for me. Do I risk going through infidelity again by staying? Can I stay with a woman who is now physically repulsive to me because of what she did? Or do I navigate my way through a divorce, see my child less, and pay her child support?

 

It all came down to which was more palatable to me. I chose divorce.

 

That meant I had to survive without my child, without my ex wife's income to help pay the mortgage, and do that while still paying child support.

 

I found a way, and made it work.

 

Nowhere in that did the OM enter the equation.

 

I have a lot of sympathy for BH's, since I'm one myself. But really, at some point we have to stop playing the victim card and realize that our destinies are within our control. To say "The OM has all the power" is nothing more than a cop out.

 

The OM wouldn't hold all the cards if we don't give them to him.

[Got it]

Somebody repeatedly paints me as pig headed since I didn't abandon my own views due to other posters telling me that their own personal experience doesn't match my "theory". I quote a thread were one of these posters does the same exact thing she accused me of doing and now instead of acknowledging the double standard you passive aggressively mock me for defending myself, hmm.

 

As far as you not feeling any guilt for what you did, lets just say that I've read enough of your advice on here to women in the midst of an affair to not at all be surprised that you sleep easy at night.

 

Well thank you!

[oldshirt]

The entire premise of this thread is that the OM holds all the cards. I disagree with that assertion.

 

My ex wife had an affair. I was presented with two choices:

 

1) Stay with a cheater

2) Divorce

 

Does the OM dictate which option I choose? No. I can weigh the consequences of each decision and decide which I feel is best for me. Do I risk going through infidelity again by staying? Can I stay with a woman who is now physically repulsive to me because of what she did? Or do I navigate my way through a divorce, see my child less, and pay her child support?

 

It all came down to which was more palatable to me. I chose divorce.

 

That meant I had to survive without my child, without my ex wife's income to help pay the mortgage, and do that while still paying child support.

 

I found a way, and made it work.

 

Nowhere in that did the OM enter the equation.

 

I have a lot of sympathy for BH's, since I'm one myself. But really, at some point we have to stop playing the victim card and realize that our destinies are within our control. To say "The OM has all the power" is nothing more than a cop out.

 

The OM wouldn't hold all the cards if we don't give them to him.

 

 

I think you and some of the other BH' s have taken Horton' s verbiage a little too literally.

 

Of course the BH still has some choice in their own actions if the WW spouse wants to remain in the marriage.

 

But that is assuming the WW is willing/wants to stay in the marriage. If the WW wants to remain in the marriage then the BH has a choice whether he wants to R or D.

 

Horton' s point (if I am understanding it correctly) is that in many if not instances, if the OM were reasonable partner material (ie not a complete alcoholic, unemployed, in jail etc) and was ready, willing and able to take the WW on fulltime, the WW would opt for the OM and the BH wouldn't even have the choice whether to R or D because the WW would be gone.

 

BH' s have the option of whether to R or D when the OM doesn't want the WW fulltime for himself and thus the BH becomes the default fallback position.

 

That is what I think Horton is saying. I don't think he's saying BH' s never have any options at all.

[2.50 a gallon]

As Oldshirt said, married women are easy

After the breakup of my marriage, I found myself a thousand miles away from my hometown, my black book was useless.

Until then married women were taboo. But I soon found myself becoming close friends with several of my co-workers. Four of which eventually shared my bed.

People do not like to hear this! But in each and every time that I have had sex with a married woman, I could point my finger at the husband who neglected her needs and left the door open for me to waltz in.

In almost every case, it was all about sex, there was no desire to take it any further, just some good sex on the side. With my co-workers, it was my Ex who set me up, when she let it slip that I liked going down. This was something that they had always wanted to experience and their husbands refused to do for them, so they came looking to me. All it took was one, and when the word was out, three more were in line.

Again like it or not, it was their husbands who opened the door by taking them for granted, or I never would have had a chance

[understand50]

As Oldshirt said, married women are easy

After the breakup of my marriage, I found myself a thousand miles away from my hometown, my black book was useless.

Until then married women were taboo. But I soon found myself becoming close friends with several of my co-workers. Four of which eventually shared my bed.

People do not like to hear this! But in each and every time that I have had sex with a married woman, I could point my finger at the husband who neglected her needs and left the door open for me to waltz in.

In almost every case, it was all about sex, there was no desire to take it any further, just some good sex on the side. With my co-workers, it was my Ex who set me up, when she let it slip that I liked going down. This was something that they had always wanted to experience and their husbands refused to do for them, so they came looking to me. All it took was one, and when the word was out, three more were in line.

Again like it or not, it was their husbands who opened the door by taking them for granted, or I never would have had a chance

 

I would say those women were looking to cheat. Having a affair merely to have a man go down on them seems a thin reason to break up, or break their the Vows. Look, there will always be married men and women who cheat, as there will be those who do not. To say, hey, I found a bunch of married women, and bedded them, all it means is that you were in a place with lose morals. If it was not you, it would be someone else. The idea that unless you "take care of needs and wants" I am going to step out, really is the wrong attitude in marriage, and I would suggest that they should not have gotten married in the first place with that idea of how a marriage works. Pity the husband or wife who is married to someone, who will not work on the relationship, but will step out to get theirs. These are the people you divorce and do not even try and reconcile with, as they will never be faithful.

 

Horton, you idea is valid with your experience. But Women are a large and diverse group, so there will always be large exceptions to the rule. I am sure there are women who have gotten into an affair, left and married the AP. Others, just wanted sex, or thought that "sex" on the side would fun and fulfilling, be something no would know about, until everyone does. Our society to holds today that to do what makes you happy is the highest thing. Only when the "bill" comes due, does it show the affair was highly destructive. Same could be stated of drug and alcohol use to excess. Men and Women have and will cheat for many reasons, from I can and no one will find out, to I am sad and need a boost, to he better looking and makes more money, to doing something forbidden is fun. Sometimes for all of the above.

 

My 2 cents.

[dichotomy]

I think you and some of the other BH' s have taken Horton' s verbiage a little too literally.

 

Horton' s point (if I am understanding it correctly) is that in many if not instances, if the OM were reasonable partner material (ie not a complete alcoholic, unemployed, in jail etc) and was ready, willing and able to take the WW on fulltime, the WW would opt for the OM and the BH wouldn't even have the choice whether to R or D because the WW would be gone.

 

 

So the point is - in 90% of cases if the OM was willing to say "I will take you, marry you...right now!" WW would leave?

 

 

I still think that in some instances WW wants ...OM (apples) AND her BH ( oranges). Or alternatively she wants Icing (OM) and Cake (BH). More broadly the "cake" of BH might include home, kids, lifestyle, which would be lost running to OM. IF OM is also married - MM might have this dilemma as well.

[frogs88]

And its not really like waywourd spouses are well known for their neutral and fair versions of the marital situation, right?