Timeline

[Krashi]

If you jaywalk you are taking a risk of being hit by a car that is substantially greater than at a pedestrian crossing. If you get hit and there are others who see it, which will cause them trauma and perhaps PTSD, do you consider any possible witnesses mental health when you do it?

 

Well, I do not think this is a good analogy. First, I do not jaywalk, so, no, I do not need to consider that.

But, I also think/feel that a normally intelligent adult realizes that repeatedly lying, gaslighting(really bad effect on the victims mental health), picki ng fights, withdrawing affection and intimacy etc(all very common behaviors of a cheater) are much, much more likely to cause harm than jaywalking.

See, in jaywalking, one needs to actually witness the acvident to get PT SD. But, in infidelity, these attendant behaviors, the lying etc ,mentioned above, themselves cause psychological damage.

Have you ever been on the receiving end of cheating, New Leaf? If you have, you would know yhat leading up to discovery, the betrayed is suffering a lot. Warning signs that do not mske sense are erupting in the mind. One questions one's grasp of reality. This contributes to the psychological damage every bit as much as discovery.

In fact, in my case, when my PI gave me yhe evudence, rather than crushing me, my initial reaction was one of euphoria.

I was so relieved that i had not lost my mind and yhat I was not some paranoid, jealous person,but was still my normal,easy going,nice self.

So, no, the jaywalking analogy is not a good one.

[Horton]

It's still somewhat jarring to me how far some will go in their attempts to make their partner's affair more palatable.

[MuddyFootprints]

It's not necessarily about making it more palatable. At some point you have to stop being a victim.

[Krashi]

It's not necessarily about making it more palatable. At some point you have to stop being a victim.

 

Depends on how one acts,after being a victim. The fact is that if you were duped, taken advantage of, robbed of some years of your life 0via fraud, etc, you are a victim.

Since when did acknowkedging that become a bad thing. "Victim" is not pejorative.

Victims can be happy. They can have wonderful lives. But, by definition, having been victimized, they are victims.

Many survibors of various atrocities do fine. Would we tell them they are not victims.

 

It seems that victim, like "judgemental" has, somehow been cast as pejorative.

But, where woild we be without our judgement. We might hire Ted Bundy( dead, I know) to babysit,

[MuddyFootprints]

You are right. It is how one identifies.

 

MaY I rephrase and say we have to stop identifying as victims?

[merrmeade]

Well, I have come full circle from the psycho babble excuses I was spouting in beginning. Actually my WH was FAR more realistic and matter-of-fact about it. He simply blamed it on propinquity. But I realize now he was right. He also said the attention was flattering. Filling in the rest, let's just call it what it is: dogs in heat. Once they copulate, dogs stand there panting, in a haze. There's no reaching them. That's the reality.

 

So all the fancy labels and explanations, more bullsh-t not to say the truth. They were horny.

[Krashi]

Well, I have come full circle from the psycho babble excuses I was spouting in beginning. Actually my WH was FAR more realistic and matter-of-fact about it. He simply blamed it on propinquity. But I realize now he was right. He also said the attention was flattering. Filling in the rest, let's just call it what it is: dogs in heat. Once they copulate, dogs stand there panting, in a haze. There's no reaching them. That's the reality.

 

So all the fancy labels and explanations, more bullsh-t not to say the truth. They were horny.

 

You mean tbey were not "soulmates"(vomit).

[merrmeade]

You mean tbey were not "soulmates"(vomit).

Next best thing: "family" when they needed a front; "best of friends" when asked about it.

 

But none of that is relevant. It's digging and scraping on the same plane, unearthing new details of the same type of information on how their brains tried to make it human, converting it to whatever construct of reality neatly fit. Some APs needing full justification indeed call themselves soulmates, fated, star-crossed lovers.

 

The BS grasps at acronyms, patterns and analysis, elevating the simple biology of desire to left-brain noise:

Aha! NPD, BPD, CSA AP/

WS

lack of empathy, rug-sweeping, blame-shifting, compartmentalizing ...

Nope. Just engorged penises and vaginas having their way.

Edited December 9, 2015 by merrmeade

[NewLeaf512]

Well, I do not think this is a good analogy. First, I do not jaywalk, so, no, I do not need to consider that.

But, I also think/feel that a normally intelligent adult realizes that repeatedly lying, gaslighting(really bad effect on the victims mental health), picki ng fights, withdrawing affection and intimacy etc(all very common behaviors of a cheater) are much, much more likely to cause harm than jaywalking.

See, in jaywalking, one needs to actually witness the acvident to get PT SD. But, in infidelity, these attendant behaviors, the lying etc ,mentioned above, themselves cause psychological damage.

Have you ever been on the receiving end of cheating, New Leaf? If you have, you would know yhat leading up to discovery, the betrayed is suffering a lot. Warning signs that do not mske sense are erupting in the mind. One questions one's grasp of reality. This contributes to the psychological damage every bit as much as discovery.

In fact, in my case, when my PI gave me yhe evudence, rather than crushing me, my initial reaction was one of euphoria.

I was so relieved that i had not lost my mind and yhat I was not some paranoid, jealous person,but was still my normal,easy going,nice self.

So, no, the jaywalking analogy is not a good one.

 

Obviously I know you don't jaywalk. The point has entirely been missed.

 

I can try again. If you are a married person, maybe with children, and you are speeding in your car as many of us often do, because of tardiness, letting your mind wander and all of a sudden you realise you are driving way too fast, you may think about the consequences of getting a ticket, but does one think about maybe having an accident and killing themselves and maybe someone else and what that would do to the family or spouse? Of course not. There is no way to account for every permutation of an A but it seems not all A start off to be A. Maybe this has something to do with it.

[NewLeaf512]

Intersting article on John and Julia Gottham on the Chumplady Site the other day, New Leaf. One of the posters that commented on his conclusions has a PhD. In psychology and she points out the flaws in his research quite wll.

I have read so many infidelity books. Lusterman, Pittman, Glass, Abram Spring, Vaughn, Langley, are some I recall. I have read a lot o n the Cluster B stuff, as well.

Truthfully, i think most of my current thinking is based on the Cluster B stuff, combined with reading a lot of posts by cheaters and OW/OM.

I know one cannot make a definitive diagnosis of anyone this way. But, as I mentioned to you once before, realistically, most cluster B folks go undiagnosed, as they avoid therapeutic scrutiny at all costs.

So, I read these posts and I converse with other BSs re their experience with the cheater in their relationship.

Now, I know that the BS may be somewhat biased in assessing the cheater, likely due yo the abuse (gaslighting, verbal abuse, witholding of intimacy, etc.) Suffered during the affair.

But, I consistently have described to me incredibly selfish, entitled, abusive behavior pre-dating the affair.

Then, I read the CHEATER'S posts and glean , once again, entitlement, lack of remorse, lack of empathy(and ,based on their having come to these types of board, these are supposed to be the cream of the crop in terms of remorse and owning their shyte.)

I believe that folks who write about this stuff, really, are probably not a whole lot more informed or insightful than many of the folks who come to these sites. They claim expertise, but, really, this subject is not a hard science or all that complex.

I bet fellini is as expert as these credentialed experts, as are other posters who have studied infidelity.

 

Ok! I do appreciate this post. This is a disclaimer: I am not a psychologist, I have not trained in analysis. I do have a university degree Msc in Decision Science and Human Behaviour ( now known as Decision Theory).

 

This is a very good foundation for my chosen career.

 

I hope you can agree after your research that all PD are extremely difficult to diagnose as they are spectrum disorders and unless the presentation is at the top of the spectrum, it is a diagnosis that requires an expert. BPD is the most difficult of the cluster B's.

 

Individuals with PD walk among us in every endeavour we undertake. As you quite rightly point out, statistics are fairly meaningless as the people suffering the most from this condition seldom seek treatment.

 

You also quite rightly point out it's widely thought that it is a nature and nurture combination. What is missing from that is the causal event is usually a horrific incident of abuse.

[NewLeaf512]

So merrmeade and Krashi does that mean that I am some weird outlier? I never copulated with exMM. I don't lack empathy or remorse. My point is nothing in this life is all one thing or all another thing. When I found out exMM was still married I never saw him f2f again. I didn't know about NC then and he convinced me he needed my "help" to sort out his D which I got sucked into. I've been 100% NC for half a year which I will never break. I've never cheated before (I was lied to in this instance and didn't know) and never would again. I was a BS with the most catastrophic of outcomes. Yet, here I am, being a "cheater"

[Krashi]

Obviously I know you don't jaywalk. The point has entirely been missed.

 

I can try again. If you are a married person, maybe with children, and you are speeding in your car as many of us often do, because of tardiness, letting your mind wander and all of a sudden you realise you are driving way too fast, you may think about the consequences of getting a ticket, but does one think about maybe having an accident and killing themselves and maybe someone else and what that would do to the family or spouse? Of course not. There is no way to account for every permutation of an A but it seems not all A start off to be A. Maybe this has something to do with it.

 

 

No, I disagree. Affairs, clearly start due to the intention to have them. A series of active decisions are made that any reasonably bright person knows will cause immense damage.

[Krashi]

Ok! I do appreciate this post. This is a disclaimer: I am not a psychologist, I have not trained in analysis. I do have a university degree Msc in Decision Science and Human Behaviour ( now known as Decision Theory).

 

This is a very good foundation for my chosen career.

 

I hope you can agree after your research that all PD are extremely difficult to diagnose as they are spectrum disorders and unless the presentation is at the top of the spectrum, it is a diagnosis that requires an expert. BPD is the most difficult of the cluster B's.

 

Individuals with PD walk among us in every endeavour we undertake. As you quite rightly point out, statistics are fairly meaningless as the people suffering the most from this condition seldom seek treatment.

 

You also quite rightly point out it's widely thought that it is a nature and nurture combination. What is missing from that is the causal event is usually a horrific incident of abuse.

 

Yes. But, I think rather than an incident of abuse, it is, more commonly, a childhood filled with abuse.

I do feel sympathy for these folks. Much like many of the criminal clients I used to represent, they did not ask for this in their upbringing and were innocents themselves when they first came into this world.

And, it perpetuates itself, this abuse and ensuing disorders it causes, passing from generation to generation.

[Krashi]

Obviously I know you don't jaywalk. The point has entirely been missed.

 

I can try again. If you are a married person, maybe with children, and you are speeding in your car as many of us often do, because of tardiness, letting your mind wander and all of a sudden you realise you are driving way too fast, you may think about the consequences of getting a ticket, but does one think about maybe having an accident and killing themselves and maybe someone else and what that would do to the family or spouse? Of course not. There is no way to account for every permutation of an A but it seems not all A start off to be A. Maybe this has something to do with it.

 

Actually, if I speed, i do consider the consequences to others.

[Krashi]

So merrmeade and Krashi does that mean that I am some weird outlier? I never copulated with exMM. I don't lack empathy or remorse. My point is nothing in this life is all one thing or all another thing. When I found out exMM was still married I never saw him f2f again. I didn't know about NC then and he convinced me he needed my "help" to sort out his D which I got sucked into. I've been 100% NC for half a year which I will never break. I've never cheated before (I was lied to in this instance and didn't know) and never would again. I was a BS with the most catastrophic of outcomes. Yet, here I am, being a "cheater"

 

As a lawyer, it should be clear to you that if you were lied to re his marital status, you lacked the requisite intent to cheat with a married person. Intent is everything in this.

[NewLeaf512]

As a lawyer, it should be clear to you that if you were lied to re his marital status, you lacked the requisite intent to cheat with a married person. Intent is everything in this.

 

Many people are lied to sadly but that doesn't make them not cheaters. He had intent. Sometimes mens rea lies with both parties, sometimes with one but actus reus could be argued.

 

I think you may be in criminal practice so recklessness vs intention is something even the judiciary can't agree on and is in reform

Edited December 9, 2015 by NewLeaf512

[Krashi]

My understanding of what you told me, New Leaf, is that you ony entered the relationship based on a lie from the guy. I have no information indicating that you acted recklessly, on even negligently. Only you know what information was available to you and whether you disregarded it or any warning signs.

Your fellow actors state of mind, or intent , does not apply to you. IMO.

So, if you really were misled and did not ignore things, I see no culpability under any theory of Us law or morality.

[66Charger]

Newleaf, by your words, you may have been a OW, but you are not a cheater. You were fooled and when the facts came to light, you acted with honor and ended it.

[NewLeaf512]

My understanding of what you told me, New Leaf, is that you ony entered the relationship based on a lie from the guy. I have no information indicating that you acted recklessly, on even negligently. Only you know what information was available to you and whether you disregarded it or any warning signs.

Your fellow actors state of mind, or intent , does not apply to you. IMO.

So, if you really were misled and did not ignore things, I see no culpability under any theory of Us law or morality.

 

I'm not in the US.

[Methodical]

Many ppl are intolerant and judgmental, often pointing fingers, making false accusation that are baseless and untrue, which sucks.

 

In the case of infidelity, the OW or OM may have no knowledge of a current relationship, yet are labeled based on theories and/or categorizations, whether true or not. Often NOT!

 

SAD.

[ladydesigner]

Newleaf, by your words, you may have been a OW, but you are not a cheater. You were fooled and when the facts came to light, you acted with honor and ended it.

 

Yep I agree Newleaf is not your typical OW.

[Krashi]

Many ppl are intolerant and judgmental, often pointing fingers, making false accusation that are baseless and untrue, which sucks.

 

In the case of infidelity, the OW or OM may have no knowledge of a current relationship, yet are labeled based on theories and/or categorizations, whether true or not. Often NOT!

 

SAD.

 

I would question the analytical abilities of anyone who would do this.

[Krashi]

I'm not in the US.

 

Regardless, without intent, except in rare cases based on public policy rationale (( which,I think is misguided)), one needs intent to be morally culpable.

What theory can you come up with that is just to hold someone accountable with no intent, other than a negligence or reckless disregard theory ( these may even be inapplicable unless you really ignored things).

[NewLeaf512]

Actus reus : commission of an act

 

If I was prosecuting to prove I'd argue on the point of one or all of the following:

 

Due diligence

 

Desire

 

Possibly duty of care

 

Defending

 

Ignorance under the mental health act

 

Lack of foresight

[Methodical]

I would question the analytical abilities of anyone who would do this.

 

I agree but ppl make assumptions all the time and they define the scope of the situation based on what they see, not necessarily all the facts. In NL's case, she was deceived by MM, yet ppl who knew MM with all likelihood didn't see her as a victim of deception, but labeled her.