Timeline

[cgiles]

Hero's wife could have come into the marriage financially well off as well. Maybe she stayed home because she could afford to.

 

I thought Hero was the dog

[NewLeaf512]

We will have to disgree on the libel allegation, New Leaf. I expressed my opinion on what behavior constitues one of the hallmarks of NP D vs naking a specfic allegation re a specific person. Read the statement.

 

 

 

I feel certain that no liability existx and that no lawyer would ever consider prosecuting a libel action based on the quoted statement. There would be no money to be made.

 

Krashi that may be true in your locality.

[NewLeaf512]

 

But to go from your perspective to diagnosing her with NSP is frankly something you need to reconsider. You simply do not have sufficient facts in front of you to make that leap. Not all entitled adults are NSP. Not all those with low or zero level of empathy are NSP. You talk of a hallmark of NSP, but if you read the literature carefully you will see it has nothing to do with A SINGLE indicator.

 

^^^^^^ <----- This. It is impossible for even a psychiatrist of world renown to diagnose a person they've never met based on what's tantamount to hearsay. I believe in my country with some cyber forensics and being instructed I would have a greater than 70% chance of a successful verdict. However you've entirely missed my point so I hope this helps for clarity:

 

There are many posters here. Many are experiencing pain or a traumatic event. Some are living with diagnosed mental illness (protected status - disability) or have someone close to them who is. There's a stigma attached to mental illness and it could be taken as a marginalisation of others with disabilities.

 

I've read the thread and I'm not able to find what question posed by OP your armchair unsubstantiated diagnosis is answering.

 

We all have traits or behaviours of NPD. It's a spectrum. Flirting could be seen to be a narcissistic manipulation.

[dichotomy]

. She was mean and cold once the cheating began. That played a big role in my decision, I think. By the time I got wind of ig, she had been acting abusively for about 4 months. This killed my love for her.

 

 

You bring up an interesting point here.

 

I was cheated on in both my marriages (1st one was PA second was complicated EA)

 

In the first marriage I knew it was over as well for a similar view - my first wife had become cold and cruel. She stayed this way during dDay and divorce. Some women (and I suppose some men) simply buildup some resentment and or justification before or during cheating ... hurting their spouse. They have checked out emotionall and their actions cause them no guilt or regret.

Edited November 30, 2015 by dichotomy

[Krashi]

If Hero had felt in any way used or unhappy with the arrangement he had to work at home and have his wife around the house, he could have said somethig about it.

 

As he doesn't even hint at the idea that he felt that she was taking advantage of him, as you suggest, is a better indication that you are wrong about your assessment that her entitlement issues stem from 10 years "refusing" to work. If Hero thought that, he would have included it in his post. He didn't. He said the opposite: He said that he took on new jobs that prevented him from spending time with his wife (in their home where he worked) so SHE came up with the idea of taking on a job. This is not entitlement.

 

It seems you are the only person who thinks he was taken advantage of because you have a problem imaging a marriage in which both partners agree to an arrangement that has one of them stay at home while the other takes on the role of wage earner.

 

Hero works in IT and security at home. So his costs are extremely low, he obviously doesn't need a secretary. He clearly LOVES his work, and from the sound of things makes a very good living doing what he loves. Why should he send his wife to flip hamburgers if he doesn't need to and was able to spend all day with her as he saw fit? Not everyone lives as you think they ought.

 

But to go from your perspective to diagnosing her with NSP is frankly something you need to reconsider. You simply do not have sufficient facts in front of you to make that leap. Not all entitled adults are NSP. Not all those with low or zero level of empathy are NSP. You talk of a hallmark of NSP, but if you read the literature carefully you will see it has nothing to do with A SINGLE indicator.

I feel her entitlement stems from narcissism as evidenced by cheating and devoting herself to her fitness and leisure to such a degree, as well as her lack of empathy demonstrated by her ridicule, gaslighting and lack of remorse.

[Krashi]

It's quite probably that no serious economist has analyzed it. But every single book published on infidelity does. EVERY SINGLE LEGITIMATE source on infidelity will agree on ONE THING:

 

Women's entry into the workplace is the single most important reason why infidelity is no longer just a male issue. Women have closed the gap in terms of numbers of affairs and this is driven by their entry into the workforce in larger numbers and in better positions. They are not just secretaries, they hold positions of responsibliity and this new climate has made co-worker and work place infidelity the number one source of the problem.

 

This reality is the motor of Girls nights out, of infidelities that result from workplace parties (christmas party being the worst), periodic "all nighters" or "working late to meet project deadlines", from business trips which now throw men and women into hotels for several nights away from their spouses, and from having women working more equally along side male workers breaking the dangerous barrier of sexual harassment in the workplace and making it less difficult for legal emotional connections to occur due to prolonged workplace contact between the genders.

 

Men no longer have exclusivity on infidelity, on workplace fliration, on living a second life outside the marital home. This is not about economists. But what is clear is that women now earn an income doing what men only had the luxury to do: screw around with co-workers.

Not sure how you conclude that I do not agree that entry into the workforce has enabled females to cheat. I do agree.

My comment about serious economists referred to the wage gap myth.

[beatcuff]

D, you touched on something the OP is missing:

 

my first wife had become cold and cruel. She stayed this way during dDay and divorce. Some women (and I suppose some men) simply buildup some resentment [removed on purpose] They have checked out emotionally

 

he is touting his 'quick' decision when in fact W had already moved on (four months prior) and was waiting for the 'moment' to have the 'talk'.

[fellini]

D, you touched on something the OP is missing:

 

 

 

he is touting his 'quick' decision when in fact W had already moved on (four months prior) and was waiting for the 'moment' to have the 'talk'.

 

Agreed. I asked my WW when I found out about her A if she was prepared to end it. Within an hour or two the answer was yes. Had it been "not yet", well, then my mind was made up.... or basically she made it for me.

 

But since the OP has elsewhere in LS made his position clear, that he would leave a woman who was even planning or thinking to have an affair, then really, finding out about it is already past the point of no return.

 

There is another perspective here among some BS's that tends to follow more the reasoning of writers like Shirley Glass, in which the moving towards an infidelity has a particular pattern, and that up until the point of making a series of decisions against the marriage, the WS is recoverable. From the perspective of Glass, it would appear, an infidelity is a break in the normal pattern of a spouse, thus leaving open the possibility that if one could break the "spell" as it were, before it got out of hand, that this would be ideal.

 

The idea being that yes on the one hand the spouse was about to cheat, but on the other, this can be stopped by breaking the fantasy and the soon to be WS could in fact be saved from making such a mistake, and return to a normal state and begin to negotiate better his/her boundaries. Very few people actually get this chance.

Edited November 30, 2015 by fellini

[Krashi]

Yes, intent is of importance to me. I see no value in staying in a relationship if the only reason an affair was thwarted was external forces vs internal motivation.

[Krashi]

Agreed. I asked my WW when I found out about her A if she was prepared to end it. Within an hour or two the answer was yes. Had it been "not yet", well, then my mind was made up.... or basically she made it for me.

 

But since the OP has elsewhere in LS made his position clear, that he would leave a woman who was even planning or thinking to have an affair, then really, finding out about it is already past the point of no return.

 

There is another perspective here among some BS's that tends to follow more the reasoning of writers like Shirley Glass, in which the moving towards an infidelity has a particular pattern, and that up until the point of making a series of decisions against the marriage, the WS is recoverable. From the perspective of Glass, it would appear, an infidelity is a break in the normal pattern of a spouse, thus leaving open the possibility that if one could break the "spell" as it were, before it got out of hand, that this would be ideal.

 

The idea being that yes on the one hand the spouse was about to cheat, but on the other, this can be stopped by breaking the fantasy and the soon to be WS could in fact be saved from making such a mistake, and return to a normal state and begin to negotiate better his/her boundaries. Very few people actually get this chance.

I posted this as an example of moving quickly , as Hero had been accused of a fictitious story due to the speed in which he came to his decision and acted on it.

My XW, as far as I can tell, demonstrated no intention of having a talk with me about her affair or dissatisfaction. There was no manifestation of her intent to do this before she got busted.

[Lois_Griffin]

SO refreshing to see someone not wallowing in delusion with a remorseless cheater and jumping around like a trained seal begging for their love. There are a few here doing JUST that and I want to slap the stupid right out of them.

 

Good for you.

[fellini]

SO refreshing to see someone not wallowing in delusion with a remorseless cheater and jumping around like a trained seal begging for their love. There are a few here doing JUST that and I want to slap the stupid right out of them.

 

Good for you.

 

 

OP never said she was remorseless. What he said was "But, I moved fast and decisively, knowing I could never get past this and would resent my wife forever."

 

This has nothing to do with jumping around. She could have offered him her right arm and it wouldn't have made a difference.

 

I'm curious though, which threads are there in which a BS is begging for the love of his/her WS?

[Krashi]

It's quite probably that no serious economist has analyzed it. But every single book published on infidelity does. EVERY SINGLE LEGITIMATE source on infidelity will agree on ONE THING:

 

Women's entry into the workplace is the single most important reason why infidelity is no longer just a male issue. Women have closed the gap in terms of numbers of affairs and this is driven by their entry into the workforce in larger numbers and in better positions. They are not just secretaries, they hold positions of responsibliity and this new climate has made co-worker and work place infidelity the number one source of the problem.

 

This reality is the motor of Girls nights out, of infidelities that result from workplace parties (christmas party being the worst), periodic "all nighters" or "working late to meet project deadlines", from business trips which now throw men and women into hotels for several nights away from their spouses, and from having women working more equally along side male workers breaking the dangerous barrier of sexual harassment in the workplace and making it less difficult for legal emotional connections to occur due to prolonged workplace contact between the genders.

 

Men no longer have exclusivity on infidelity, on workplace fliration, on living a second life outside the marital home. This is not about economists. But what is clear is that women now earn an income doing what men only had the luxury to do: screw around with co-workers.

 

Again, I have no argument that entry into the workplace is the major reason for the uptick in women's infidelity. But, the notion that men monopolized this realm( infidelity) in the past, is wrong. There were, in the past, greater numbers of men cheating vs today where it is roughly equal.

But, pre feminism and its attendant benefits, many women cheated. It was lopsided in terms of men doing it more, but , by no means could it be considered a monopoly.

[Krashi]

OP never said she was remorseless. What he said was "But, I moved fast and decisively, knowing I could never get past this and would resent my wife forever."

 

This has nothing to do with jumping around. She could have offered him her right arm and it wouldn't have made a difference.

 

I'm curious though, which threads are there in which a BS is begging for the love of his/her WS?

She was, and remains, remorseless. Despite this, she calls me a fair amount to discuss things other than the kids. Just last week, she sought my advice on a a legal matter, acting as if she had done nothing wrong and we were still friends.

Reminded me of Hero's description of his wifes texts re a variety of mundane things.

Weird. She talks to me about the weather, and makes little jokes about things. Just banter.

Her affair partner and she were at each others' throats about a year after he moved in.

[OneLov]

Is it so rare that one knows right away that this is a dealbreaker? I knew it immediately.

 

I would not say it is rare. I think it depends on the person. Some people do and some do not. It is not right or wrong to feel that way. If you feel that way, you are being honest in the situation. May it change? Sure. But more than likely it will depend on her actions. Again, it is not a question of right or wrong. Concerning your feelings, the best thing you can do is continue to be honest with yourself.

[sandylee1]

Thank you,Sandy. It was quite traumatizing, as you may know.

I know it was the right decision for me and the kids. There was verbal and emotional abuse from my XW during the affair. Very unkind things were being said to me and about me. There was financial abuse, as well, as a signigicant part of our family's financial assets were squandered on the affair. My health was suffrring trying to work, care for the kids and our home and working two jobs, trying to keep up with the spending. Virtually every contribution that she made to our famiky went on hold while she enjoyed herself and depleted our finances.

 

I just find affairs to be in very poor taste and exceedingly inconsiderate. I hope she thinks it was all worth it now that you're getting divorced.

 

Did she apologise?

Does she want the divorce too or would she rather reconcile?

 

It really hurts when you can no longer live with your kids on a daily basis.....because your spouse lost their way and their morals. It's very sad for the kids to be in this situation.

 

I'm glad you have support from your family......sisters can be wonderful. Don't be afraid to ask your nearest and dearest for help..... my sisters and I were more than happy to help out when my brother was going through a divorce.

[drifter777]

OP never said she was remorseless. What he said was "But, I moved fast and decisively, knowing I could never get past this and would resent my wife forever."

 

This has nothing to do with jumping around. She could have offered him her right arm and it wouldn't have made a difference.

 

I'm curious though, which threads are there in which a BS is begging for the love of his/her WS?

I don't recall seeing a BH post of begging for his WW to stay and love him - at least overtly. What I see more often is a BH who wants to believe his WW is remorseful and "doing all the right things" when that is clearly not the case according to the behavior of WW he has described. It is nearly universal that a few weeks after d-day, if BH stays to "work things out", he will begin to strongly defend his WW when others point out that he is not think rationally. An example would be when BH catches her breaking NC and she tells him it was just a goodbye thing and he just accepts it. Other BS's will point out that if it was innocent she would have told him before contacting AP. When AP is a work colleague and she refuses to quit her job. We all can tell him these are red flags but he refuses to acknowledge it and then, of course, trickle truth begins leaking then pouring out and he realizes that she's been playing on his emotional fragility and gas lighting him the whole time. Quick example would be BetrayedH but there are many others. In fact it is a typical pattern we see here all the time.

 

You posted earlier that your counselor said something to the effect of "a person knows right away whether they can accept infidelity" - something I strongly agree with. Did he say anything about those BS's that know they will never forgive but stay anyway? I would think that some change their minds and divorce within a year or two. Others try to keep it bottled up and tough it out hoping they will magically heal over time and still others stay but frequently trigger and put the WW through the hell they are living with on a regular basis. Of those BH's that know in their heart they will never forgive but stay and keep it bottled up are the largest group - just my opinion.

 

You've also got into whether a BH/BW handle infidelity differently purely due to their sex. I strongly believe that they do and there is a lot of evidence that backs that up. Yes, I'm sure that social pressure/expectations play a part in how each sex reacts but there are strong evolutionary factors in play here as well. There is the natural, biological urge for men to "spread their seed" and for women to want to upgrade the genetics of their children by boffing stronger (richer, healthier, confident) men. There is strong biology working on the betrayed side as well. Men are never sure that the child born by his wife is his. Women need a good provider while they are raising children. So they enter into an emotional contract that the woman won't screw other men and the man won't leave to provide for another female. But the fact is that men continue to have strong urges to spread their seed and they can find plenty of women who have strong urges to strengthen their personal gene pool. When they meet and neither has the courage to strongly enforce their boundary (that contract) - infidelity happens.

 

One of the results when a husband cheats is the terrifying prospect that his wife is losing her provider to another female. She has failed to keep him satisfied enough so he won't stray. Forget about whether she works or not, this is evolutionary. The result of the wife cheating is the terrifying prospect that the husband is, or will be, providing for another man's offspring. He is actively destroying his own bloodline. He has failed to watch over her and keep her faithful. Again, forget about genetic testing that could ease his mind - this is a biological response.

 

With two such wildly different biological reactions - fueled by 6 million years of evolution - expecting the emotional reactions to be the same is to ignore science and psychology. So when I read an OP about a husband cheating I check out. When I read an OP about a husband who has or wants to cheat I check out. I do not believe that my experiences or opinions, as a BH, are at all valid to a BW.

 

While the couple are still in child-bearing years, in my opinion a quick divorce by a BH in response to his wife's cheating is the purest, most honest response. A decision to give her another chance and then rugsweep his feelings and just tough it out, while sounding horrible, is the next purest response because he will now be extra vigilant and watch over her better. Staying and torturing himself and his WW is just plain sick. While there are exceptions to every law of nature, reconciling goes against millions of years of male evolution.

 

So the fact that this OP got to the "you cheated - we're through" so quickly is just him being honest to himself.

[nightmare01]

Just as there is no one-size-fits-all solution to handling infidelity (on either side), there is also no standard timeline to follow. You do what you do when you are ready to do it.

 

As to questions regarding the number and sex of WS and BS that appear here - I attribute that to the communication styles of the people involved. Some are comfortable talking about this very sensitive and humiliating part of their life on a public forum - others not so much.

[Krashi]

Sandy, there was no apology, which I am told is not unusual. My family and friends, as well as my XW's siblings and parents have been very supportive. Both her parents had come to me and advised me to divorce their daughter as she is a "habitual liar" and had done this type of thing before,as an OW.

Her dad really apologized and told me he wished he had warned me, but he hoped she had changed.

I cannot imagine how any non-disordered person could pull off a long term affair. I cannot understand how anyone with a conscience could engage in so much lying, for so long, and be so comfortable with it. It strikes me that people in long term affairs or serial cheaters must be very practiced and comfortable with lying and deceit in order to function while doing this.

I doubt a normal person could pull it off without breaking down or losing one's sanity.

[fellini]

Just as there is no one-size-fits-all solution to handling infidelity (on either side), there is also no standard timeline to follow. You do what you do when you are ready to do it.

 

As to questions regarding the number and sex of WS and BS that appear here - I attribute that to the communication styles of the people involved. Some are comfortable talking about this very sensitive and humiliating part of their life on a public forum - others not so much.

 

Sorry, but I don't see what you are getting at. People who come here don't appear to have a problem talking about infidelity. Those who are uncomfortable, don't. Okay so that merely distinguishes between those who have come here with problems and those who have problems but have not opened an account. Other than that, there are lurkers.

[merrmeade]

SO refreshing to see someone not wallowing in delusion with a remorseless cheater and jumping around like a trained seal begging for their love. There are a few here doing JUST that and I want to slap the stupid right out of them.

 

Good for you.

Like I said and will keep saying, recently wounded BS struggling to reclaim their dignity should ignore this advice. At best, this is useless bravado aimed at the peanut gallery. At worst, it's heartless ridicule that borders on incivility and has no place in a thread authored by a BS. Insults and violence - "slap the stupid" - as imaginary retribution for (perceived) subservience... Think about the absurdity of that for a second! And freakin circus ANIMAL metaphors for the BS (wallowing, trained seals)???! Do you also mock your children for crying when you beat them? Further abuse with 0 takeaways for the OP.

 

It may not be as entertaining to admirers of bullying, but conforming the advice to the OP's state of mind ensures receptivity if that matters.

 

Correction: this was intended for a different thread but can't Select All on my device. So whatev. Not relevant for this OP but maybe some one else...

Edited November 30, 2015 by merrmeade

[merrmeade]

I just find affairs to be in very poor taste and exceedingly inconsiderate.

So many rejoinders, so little time. Let it stand in its pristine gentility. Can't come close to anything as funny as this.

 

I kind of understand your restraint: Affairs are so off-the-chart horrendous, might as well go the opposite direction of implied understatement? No offense, sl - couldn't resist.

[Krashi]

I would not say it is rare. I think it depends on the person. Some people do and some do not. It is not right or wrong to feel that way. If you feel that way, you are being honest in the situation. May it change? Sure. But more than likely it will depend on her actions. Again, it is not a question of right or wrong. Concerning your feelings, the best thing you can do is continue to be honest with yourself.

 

OneLov, to be honest, her actions post cheating, would never had made a difference to me. I have never sought revenge. But, I knew I would firever resent her and I wanted to be in a relatiinship where I honored and respected my wife. I had no interest in being in a marriage where I would be tempted to be cruel to someone. So, knowing it would not be possible to feel the way I used to feel about my wife, and not wanting to hurt her by being mean in the future, I got out.

[merrmeade]

Well we have two issues which are clearly at play here, and which will never get the kind of decent and respectful discussion they deserve:

 

1. The self fulfilling prophecy. People go into a public forum on infidelity and all they hear is that it's impossible for men to forgive their WW's for an A.

 

This approach usually draws upon the tribal drums of the men's movement calling all men to "grow a pair", to get Alpha, stop being Beta, to stop being a doormat, etc.

 

This issue feeds into a dangerous myth that men and women are not the same, that they are wired differently and so their responses to infidelity are, naturally, different. Of course men and women are different in some ways, but it is more often the case that people migrate differences which are more socially based on misogyny than on biology into the discussion where they do not belong, treating them as fact.

 

2. The shadow of patriarchy. There are many ways this plays out in LS. Sometimes (like in Hero case) it's the story of the "idle hands make devils work" because she is a SAHW or a SAHM. But in fact this is how masculine culture prefers their woman to be. Men became enormously emasculated when women found out they could make a living (although not as much as men) and have control over their own finances, thus not being tied down to a man. So the reverse should actually be true: women with good income are more faviourable to cheat because they have less to lose. But the shadow of patriarchy still smells of a time when men believed, and the law defended, the idea that they owned their woman and children. Anyone who thinks this is not a dark shadow still ever present in patriarchial societies is fooling themselves.

 

The most important effect that this attitude breeds is that a WW represents that another man has stolen your property and used it as he wishes. I call it a shadow, but in fact in LS there are dozens of cases where the analogy is made of another man stealing your car.

 

Naturally, there are no concomitant analogies about men who cheat on their wives, just as there are no threads where a woman whose husband has cheated is told to "grow a pair".

 

Given the clear discrepancy that people bring to the table about infidelity it is no mysetery that men are "socialised" into believing their wife's infidelity is something deeper, more sordid and personal than a man's infidelity.

 

Of course there are people who hold the view that all infidelity is wrong (which it is) and that it's the same for both genders. But the fact is that the threads continually show that those who believe that are far outnumbered by those who continuoulsy argue almost entirely in terms of gender.

 

Is it no wonder that the stories then, reflect this discrepancy? That for men, it is merely a question of "deal breaker" and for women, it is a question of "can my marriage survive this?"

So I've been sitting on this comment for a day, but fellini's bold assertions are important and timely and deserve more attention—at least a salute and a thank you for even tackling the misogynistic undertones in some of the threads. The responses were disappointing, but anyway it’s out there. Maybe his treatment was too heady. Maybe too threatening. Only a couple of men proffered an opinion, denying their own gender bias, justifying its usefulness to pump up a deflated WH, even claiming objectivity in their observations of its non-existence on LS.

 

This post was only marginally relevant to Krashi’s thread, so I suspect f’s been waiting for the right moment to say it. Regardless, I agree the problem is too important to ignore as it ultimately marginalizes me as well as all women, not just the individual ‘c-nts’ targeted. By ignoring or avoiding it, we’re allowing it to perpetuate.

 

This issue has been bothering me since the awful female-bashing that peppered the zinger, BigDaddy and Hero threads. I said something then but only poor zinger responded with a bewildered (and misplaced) apology. It wasn't zinger. I simply left the thread unable to relate to the impassioned diatribe. More recently, I posted -

Are the sexist labels "c-nt" and "cow" necessary? I'm in that demographic group as are half the readers. Aren't there other expletives that satisfy? Would you use a racial slur to express your animosity if you knew the person's race? I really hate it when it deteriorates into gender bashing generalizations. And I'm not being political; it feels personal

- which was "liked" by 15 people. That's not a non-issue.

 

At such times, even betrayed wives can feel marginalized. And I don’t think I’m the only XX-chromosome person that feels it. It’s important to me and to other members of my sex who come here for support and shared experience. We should not feel excluded or disrespected.

Edited December 1, 2015 by merrmeade

[sandylee1]

Sandy, there was no apology, which I am told is not unusual. My family and friends, as well as my XW's siblings and parents have been very supportive. Both her parents had come to me and advised me to divorce their daughter as she is a "habitual liar" and had done this type of thing before,as an OW.

Her dad really apologized and told me he wished he had warned me, but he hoped she had changed.

I cannot imagine how any non-disordered person could pull off a long term affair. I cannot understand how anyone with a conscience could engage in so much lying, for so long, and be so comfortable with it. It strikes me that people in long term affairs or serial cheaters must be very practiced and comfortable with lying and deceit in order to function while doing this.

I doubt a normal person could pull it off without breaking down or losing one's sanity.

 

Oh dear. Her parents were hoping she'd changed, but TBH if you have such low morals to be an OW ..... cheating yourself would be no big deal. I like it when parents can be honest and not defend blindly.

 

You are indeed correct. .. people who cheat have no conscience...more so the long term affairs. I know some people after a few weeks just can't carry on with the affair or those who have ONS... they aren't comfortable with it.

 

The LTAs are a whole different ball game. It takes away another person's choice to be with a person who truly loves and respects them.....and can be faithful to them. It's more than selfish that you are deceived about their character and end up having a family with prolific cheaters. I often wonder how they think the sun shines out of their APs backside, when they have both shown such fraudulent traits.

 

 

I honestly feel if fidelity is a problem for them...they should remain single or go on open relationship websites to find a partner that suits them.

 

How long was her affair?