Timeline

[sandylee1]

By compartmentalising.....I mean the affair and their everyday life are seperated. Luckily I don't speak as a BS, but my work with BS/WS verifies this thought process.

 

The spouse, kids, inlaws and home life is a seperate entity .... yet one they will share snippets of with the AP.. like FIL is over today.. or my daughter is bringing her BF. They use the affair as an escape.. often saying it makes the marriage better and other such nonsense.

 

The AP as I said will believe every bit of nonsense they are told about the BS.... it does mostly seem to be men that talk bad of their wives in affairs from my experience. Hence the OW sees the wife as this evil woman, an obstacle in the way of getting the love of her life... who makes his life a misery. But off course he can't leave and cites religion, money, kids and finances. Religion being the biggest joke of all.... I'm Catholic and can't divorce but cheating is just fine.

 

Krashi ...You are right.. they are all about themselves and if they were asked if they would ever hurt a child.. The answer would be a resounding NO. But by having an affair with a married person... that is a very likely outcome.

 

An OW once said .... that it's not her intention to hurt the BW and she never set out to hurt her by sleeping with her husband.

 

Another has said the BW was as irrelevant as yesterday's newspaper. I see the remorseful ones... who can reflect... but there are many who are always the OW or OM.

[merrmeade]

By compartmentalising.....I mean the affair and their everyday life are seperated. Luckily I don't speak as a BS, but my work with BS/WS verifies this thought process.

 

The spouse, kids, inlaws and home life is a seperate entity .... yet one they will share snippets of with the AP.. like FIL is over today.. or my daughter is bringing her BF. They use the affair as an escape.. often saying it makes the marriage better and other such nonsense.

 

The AP as I said will believe every bit of nonsense they are told about the BS.... it does mostly seem to be men that talk bad of their wives in affairs from my experience. Hence the OW sees the wife as this evil woman, an obstacle in the way of getting the love of her life... who makes his life a misery. But off course he can't leave and cites religion, money, kids and finances. Religion being the biggest joke of all.... I'm Catholic and can't divorce but cheating is just fine.

 

Krashi ...You are right.. they are all about themselves and if they were asked if they would ever hurt a child.. The answer would be a resounding NO. But by having an affair with a married person... that is a very likely outcome.

 

An OW once said .... that it's not her intention to hurt the BW and she never set out to hurt her by sleeping with her husband.

 

Another has said the BW was as irrelevant as yesterday's newspaper. I see the remorseful ones... who can reflect... but there are many who are always the OW or OM.

So compartmentalize (-se): Dividing your life/brain/heart into compartments, each with a different set of values, roles, reality, reasoning, maybe different everything. Wow. I do get it. I found out a lot about how my H was with the OW, my sister-in-law, and her kids since the EA had gone on for several years and he even became a part of their family life. (I know wth - sick). Neither spouse was around, so he became the hero, saving her and their family. Because it was (supposedly) family, I heard and, later, read a lot—and it was bizarre. Like hearing about someone I didn't know. He literally became a different person—gourmet cook and counselor, for example, when he'd never cooked for us or talked to his own kids. She leaned on him as a wise, caring, all-seeing and -knowing friend. That really was another set of behaviors completely absent from my experience. What was even weirder was that to this day he does not seem to remember any of his behavior as unusual except for the inappropriateness of their closeness. This explains it.

[Red123]

Thank you. Study I read said 30% survive with 7% of yhat number reporting a happy marriage after infideliy. So, about 2.1% marriages. This was betrayed men reporting.

Michelle Langley, cited by fellini in the thread on good books, reported thzt shd followed up with over one hundred men who stayed. At yhe ,roughly, 2 year mark, when fear and competetive urges has subsided, 100% of the men reported regretting having stayed.

I would venture that it is unlikely fellini has done more reading on this than I have but cannot say for sure. My reading has been pretty exhaustive.

 

I don't base my reconciliation on stats. So many situations in my life had lots of stats on them that if I believed to be true for myself I would not be where I am today. I had a baby as a teenager. According to the stats at that time I was very likely to not finish school, live on social assistance and have more children in my teens, and my own child to become a teen mom herself. None of that happened, and believe me I was quoted these stats by teachers, family members and my own father. I put myself through school, have a high paying job in management in my field of study, own my home and my daughter is 20 with no kids and no plans for them. I think stats can be helpful but I certainly haven't used them to make the big decisions in my life, I chose for myself the life I wanted. I use the same method to deal with the infedelity in my life. I can't make a choice based on others lives and what they report to a study. I think although affairs have similarities, everyone's situation is different so choices to stay or go need to based on that not the stats. My H had a short A that ended quickly, he has done what needs to be done and continues to repair the damage. I would not use my experience to offer advice to someone who's spouse had a 5 year A and is not doing the work to repair. We are all different and that's ok. If stats help you to make your choices, that's what works for you, it's just not for everyone.

[understand50]

With all due respect,I disagree

Every affair is same,as there is always,at least one victim

If there is a victim,there must be an intention

Actors,actresses,and play might be different,and it is only difference

It is the victim right,to decide,what the consequences are

In addition to above,all Krashi asks for, is to acknowledge the victim,even if it present WS(abuser) in a negative (bad) light

 

DAO,

 

I do not think you really disagree with me. Yes every affair has victims, and it is their right to just divorce and be done with the WS. I have always stated that the cheater cannot expect to reconcile, just because they want to. Reconciliation is a huge gift from the BS. I also state, and some disagree, that one of the first things you need to do after D-Day is decide if you want to stay married, and then act upon your choice. Krashi, decided to divorce, and that was the right decision for him in his life.

 

If the BS does decides to try reconcile, that next choice is on the WS to decide if they will do all they need to do to make admins. It is all hard work, and of all the things that are done after D-Day, this decision by both parties, should really be taken after hard and long thought.

 

The bottom line is that "free will" needs to be given back to the BS. It was taken by the WS, when they decided to break their Vows. The main and first decision is with the WS. Once made, it should be respected, unless evidence shows that they will be staying in a abusive relationship. Support needs to be given to BS, to help them navigate trough this hard time, and to WS, that are working to show remorse and make amends.

 

My 2 cents.....

[Krashi]

LS is not a book of the month club competition. I posted one line about two volumes of books by Langley neither of which have anything to do with any follow-up study on men for a book which never came to publication. Her books on women's infidility are from not only a large sample but are based on qualitative case studies methods and are not intended to be read like "Not Just Friends" or books by long term marriage councilors.

 

I said I found these books to be helpful. This does not mean I found them to be 100% fact. They are written as a dialogue to pose the kinds of questions about infidelity that people here tend to shut down with unqualified statistics, or over generalisations that it "boils down to all cheaters are just narcissists or over entitled selfish disfunctional psychopaths."

 

This might actually be true for some people, but I expect it is not the general case.

 

 

Man I loathe the use of statistics to make a point when we have our own common sense and language to report what we believe to be true. The only statistic I truly believe is that using statistics will 100% of the time raise questions about the statistic that do not help us to understand the meaning of what they purport to say, but rather, engage us in useless and inpossible debates about the science of statistics.

 

So please, if it isn't too much to ask, do not personalise my posts and twist them around to buffer up an idea that you have about Langley just to make your own. I did not refer to Langley on men, I referred to her work about women, I draw only on her material about Limbo, about mid-late matrimonial infidelity, and about the husband-wife dynamics that she sees DURING infidelity. And about how women can get out of infidelity if they wish.

 

In the end, it is not about HOW much reading you or I or anyone here has done, it is about what we take away from it, and what we are able to communicate about it

 

If all you can do after an exhaustive reading is to make the kind of over generalised and simplistic claims about WS's that you have here, then either your reading has been exhaustive but not broad, or you choose only to report on what you already believe, or you have no interest in the whole picture or the subtleties that infidelity like any other aspect of human behaviour, displays.

 

And once again, I will repeat a line that has emerged in this thread that I started with.

 

Those of us BS's who clearly "run against the grain" here continue to receive snide uncalled for qualifications from other BS's about our

a) not being real men

b) delusional "the things we tell ourselves to live with our decisions to stay with a cheater"

c) exception to the rule "that may have worked for you, but...."

 

NONE of us in this "camp" have ever used those tactics on those BS's who take a hardline approach to infidelity as a concept, or in their lives.

None of us say reconciliation is for everyone, yet there are people in here who insist that reconciliation is for NO ONE.

None of us say you are a coward for divorcing, enough said about the name-calling for those who do not

None of us say you are going to be unhappy in choosing to divorce, yet all we hear is how ANYONE who stays is going to eat a sh-t sandwhich for life.

 

Why is it that we cannot say what we think, what we feel, what we want, and what we have learned without being attacked and insulted and called out.

 

Respect is not a two way street in LS and anyone who thinks otherwise is just more wishful thinking.

 

I do not believe i have criticized anyone for going the reconciliation route. I am fine with it. Do not think I have ever gone the "real men" or "delusiona" or Man-up route, either.

I simply feel based on what I have read and my reasoning, that if a person is comfortable lying and leading a double life for an extended period of time, as many cheaters are, they fit the criteria for being a cluster B..

As for Langley, her finding re the satisfaction of the men she contacted was on her site, back when she still actively participated vs her books.

[Krashi]

I don't base my reconciliation on stats. So many situations in my life had lots of stats on them that if I believed to be true for myself I would not be where I am today. I had a baby as a teenager. According to the stats at that time I was very likely to not finish school, live on social assistance and have more children in my teens, and my own child to become a teen mom herself. None of that happened, and believe me I was quoted these stats by teachers, family members and my own father. I put myself through school, have a high paying job in management in my field of study, own my home and my daughter is 20 with no kids and no plans for them. I think stats can be helpful but I certainly haven't used them to make the big decisions in my life, I chose for myself the life I wanted. I use the same method to deal with the infedelity in my life. I can't make a choice based on others lives and what they report to a study. I think although affairs have similarities, everyone's situation is different so choices to stay or go need to based on that not the stats. My H had a short A that ended quickly, he has done what needs to be done and continues to repair the damage. I would not use my experience to offer advice to someone who's spouse had a 5 year A and is not doing the work to repair. We are all different and that's ok. If stats help you to make your choices, that's what works for you, it's just not for everyone.

 

Yes, I would consider them, among other things, in making a decision.

[fellini]

As for Langley, her finding re the satisfaction of the men she contacted was on her site, back when she still actively participated vs her books.

 

If you check the reasons given that men were disatisfied with their reconciliation you will see something very suspicious, not reflected here by those reconciling in any respect:

 

1. Men's problems thinking their WW had an A and judge them on penis size.

2. Men believed that at the time of Dday they were too scared to divorce or separate and now, two years down the road, more or less back on their fee, are less so.

3. Men not wanting to hand their WW's over to the AP by divorcing.

 

 

These are hardly credible results to work with. Basically she reports that these men were beta not alpha. Fact is, none of these reasons identify that the marriage cannot work. They are personal issues men have around their masculine identities. Without question, those were not healthy reasons to seek reconciliation in the first place. Most BH's here do not display those reasons in their explanations about why they are reconciling, attempting to, or in fact reconciled.

 

But there is another issue that is suspicious. A study 2 years down the road when most people will agree that it takes 3-5 years, on average, to reconcile AND be in a good space. Maybe her results were only capturing a snapshot of a BS passing through a set of phases. Why not interview people 3, 4, 5 years down the road? I wonder if the results would have been the same.

 

If LS is any indication of what is going on, I don't think the results would be so scewed against reconcilition in terms of the satisfaction in men had she discussed it with them beyond this somewhat fuzzy barrier of 3 years.

 

 

A better discussion of reconciliation is Esther Perel's "Beyond the Storm" where she talks about 3 types of couples and doing so without statistics. She identifies there "types" but does not insist that people fall neatly into any one. They are used as a heuristic device to demonstrate how some couples have moved beyond the betrayal and how others have not.

Edited December 8, 2015 by fellini

[Krashi]

Yes, I have watched Perel on youtube, some. Her credentials are very suspect, to say the least.As i recall, she has a degree in art therapy or something like tha from an institution that is not highly regarded.

Regardless of their reasons, and I knew about the competition and fear one( did not hear of the penis size one until now), Langley claims that the fear and competetive urge had died down such that these men were now regretful of having reconciled

Langley, like Perel, is , essentially, unqualified and lacks any decent credential, though. So, her stuff may not be all the reliable either.

If you go to the " reconciliation for as fee" service sites, you will see claims of 60-85% "better stronger marriage" claims, but those seem really far fetched.

Other sites with no apparent profit motive give the roughly 30% staying together rate.

I would be interested in your take on how a person without a personality disorder lies so easily and for so long and shows the lack of empathy necessary to expose a partner to STDs, PTSD, and , essentailly, what many therapist characterize as the most form of emotional abuse in a marriage.

Are you saying a person with normal levels of compassion and empathy could do this, and, if so, how?

[fellini]

You know, at the height of aids, young people continued to have unprotected sex because they believed they would not contract it.

 

In many European countries construction workers refuse to wear earplugs working with Jack hammers, and eye goggles when working with torches... seems they are "real men" and sparks simply will not fly randomly into their eyes.... every where else, but not their eyeballs. Just won't happen.

 

People have always shown a remarkable capacity to do things that just don't follow common sense.

 

Waywards do not expect to be caught. So why would they concern themselves with PTSD? I would wager that the majority of WS's don't even know that a betrayed spouse will suffer PTSD, or anything like it, I doubt they think beyond, "if s/he finds out s/he'll be pissed. I'll be in the dog house. Most probably say only "I'll cross that bridge when I get to it."

 

I think normal levels of compassion and empathy are in very short supply today. Not just cheaters. I believe they can do it because they refuse to engage the kinds of questions BS's engaged.

 

And I believe that these same people who have cheated, had they not done it YET and found out their spouse was cheating, would be asking the same questions that as cheaters they did not ask.

 

When a person is cheating, they are of a specific mindset. When a person is betrayed, they are of another. More often than ot being the latter makes it almost impossible to understand the former.

 

 

Yes, I have watched Perel on youtube, some. Her credentials are very suspect, to say the least.As i recall, she has a degree in art therapy or something like tha from an institution that is not highly regarded.

Regardless of their reasons, and I knew about the competition and fear one( did not hear of the penis size one until now), Langley claims that the fear and competetive urge had died down such that these men were now regretful of having reconciled

Langley, like Perel, is , essentially, unqualified and lacks any decent credential, though. So, her stuff may not be all the reliable either.

If you go to the " reconciliation for as fee" service sites, you will see claims of 60-85% "better stronger marriage" claims, but those seem really far fetched.

Other sites with no apparent profit motive give the roughly 30% staying together rate.

I would be interested in your take on how a person without a personality disorder lies so easily and for so long and shows the lack of empathy necessary to expose a partner to STDs, PTSD, and , essentailly, what many therapist characterize as the most form of emotional abuse in a marriage.

Are you saying a person with normal levels of compassion and empathy could do this, and, if so, how?

[fellini]

Yes, I have watched Perel on youtube, some. Her credentials are very suspect, to say the least.As i recall, she has a degree in art therapy or something like tha from an institution that is not highly regarded.

 

Come on Krashi, you can be more responsible than that. She has experience working with Holocaust survivores, has a legitamate degree, and devotes herself to an aspect of psychotherapy that is not mainstream. This does not make her suspect.

 

Judge her on what she SAYS, not what you read in Chumplady or elsewhere.

[Krashi]

Come on Krashi, you can be more responsible than that. She has experience working with Holocaust survivores, has a legitamate degree, and devotes herself to an aspect of psychotherapy that is not mainstream. This does not make her suspect.

 

Judge her on what she SAYS, not what you read in Chumplady or elsewhere.

 

I will watch her some more. Chump lady has written about her often,and her criticisms make a lot of sense to me. Essentially, I have not been impressed with her analysis, but will give her more consideration. She struck me shallow and glib.

As far as cheater not considering the consequences of their actions, I think that indicates a lack of empathy. While it may be true that they do not realize PTSD may ensue, no adult of normal intelligence is unaware of the grave threat of injury this poses to their spouse, both psychologically and physically.

STDs are a real risk and we have much more information about them than kids did back in the early 1980's. And, we are talking about adults here vs kids.So, the maturity and the added info we now have has to be factored in and makes your analogy inapplicable, IMO.

The workers with no protection are risking their own well being, not that of others, another major distinction.

[Cymbeline]

Esther Perel's work is interesting and very highly regarded in Europe where attitudes towards affairs are perhaps a little different to the US but therapy less common.

[ladydesigner]

I will watch her some more. Chump lady has written about her often,and her criticisms make a lot of sense to me. Essentially, I have not been impressed with her analysis, but will give her more consideration. She struck me shallow and glib.

As far as cheater not considering the consequences of their actions, I think that indicates a lack of empathy. While it may be true that they do not realize PTSD may ensue, no adult of normal intelligence is unaware of the grave threat of injury this poses to their spouse, both psychologically and physically.

STDs are a real risk and we have much more information about them than kids did back in the early 1980's. And, we are talking about adults here vs kids.So, the maturity and the added info we now have has to be factored in and makes your analogy inapplicable, IMO.

The workers with no protection are risking their own well being, not that of others, another major distinction.

 

I agree with this. I think the WS does have a lack of empathy during the A. It goes hand in hand with the compartmentalization. If the WS was thinking of the spouse they never would have had the A.

 

My WH chose not only to betray me once but again and again until I finally had the proof to confront and set my own boundaries with my WH. My WH not only witnessed my pain, he saw me spiral down into a deep depression and could not have a care in the world because he was so enamored by MOW. He even convinced me he wanted to R, acted like he was in R and I began to lighten up on my vigilance only to be let down again. It's WS's like my H that give WS's a bad name.

 

But I have to agree with Krashi in that the WS has to have some kind of lack of empathy for the BS during their A.

[fellini]

But I have to agree with Krashi in that the WS has to have some kind of lack of empathy for the BS during their A.

 

I agree that there is "some lack of empathy".

 

But I assure you, this "lack of some empathy" is a characteristic of the population in general. Empathy is a learned response. Not everyone has a fully developed emphatic nature. Not everyone who has some lack of empathy will cheat. Some people who cheat will exhibit their capacity to ignore empathy for the first time.

 

Many people have remarked how surprised they are to hear their WS express horror at the lack of empathy in things they see on the news, yet forget they themselves exhibited it during the affair.

 

I just do not believe we are born with a "quantity" of empathy, and most of us have it "100%" but "cheaters don't have it." Some cheaters express greater empathy for their AP than their family. It's not as simple, to me, as you either have it, and express it, or you don't.

[merrmeade]

I agree that there is "some lack of empathy".

 

But I assure you, this "lack of some empathy" is a characteristic of the population in general. Empathy is a learned response. Not everyone has a fully developed emphatic nature. Not everyone who has some lack of empathy will cheat. Some people who cheat will exhibit their capacity to ignore empathy for the first time.

 

Many people have remarked how surprised they are to hear their WS express horror at the lack of empathy in things they see on the news, yet forget they themselves exhibited it during the affair.

 

I just do not believe we are born with a "quantity" of empathy, and most of us have it "100%" but "cheaters don't have it." Some cheaters express greater empathy for their AP than their family. It's not as simple, to me, as you either have it, and express it, or you don't.

Great post. As a mother who had a great mother who had a great mother on back for generations, I can say with 100% certainty: It's the mother. Freud said so, too.

[Krashi]

Esther Perel's work is interesting and very highly regarded in Europe where attitudes towards affairs are perhaps a little different to the US but therapy less common.

 

I have heard that about the attitudes in Europe, but also read posts by Europeans, particularly the french, where they deny that affairs are acceptable and do not cause pain to them. Essentially, they seemed to be saying that this acceptance of affairs allegation is not true.

I will try to dredge up the information about perel's credentials. As i recall, one poster on Chump Lady, researched her and found her degree was in an unrelated field, and that she misrepresented her affiliation with Columbia University or at least embellished it a lot. I seem to recall he found she was not on the faculty as she claimed.

[Krashi]

I agree that there is "some lack of empathy".

 

But I assure you, this "lack of some empathy" is a characteristic of the population in general. Empathy is a learned response. Not everyone has a fully developed emphatic nature. Not everyone who has some lack of empathy will cheat. Some people who cheat will exhibit their capacity to ignore empathy for the first time.

 

Many people have remarked how surprised they are to hear their WS express horror at the lack of empathy in things they see on the news, yet forget they themselves exhibited it during the affair.

 

I just do not believe we are born with a "quantity" of empathy, and most of us have it "100%" but "cheaters don't have it." Some cheaters express greater empathy for their AP than their family. It's not as simple, to me, as you either have it, and express it, or you don't.

 

I think nature and nurture contribute to the formation of a Cluster B, and, it is a continuum.

This is ,pretty much a res ipsa type of analysis, butit makes sense to me: if you observe someone demonstrating a severe lack of empathy, say Michael Vick, his actions demonstrate that he does, in fact have no empathy or very little.

 

So, in an affair situation, especially with long term cheating, i think we can agree that STDs are a risk. Psychological injury is a risk. Destruction of the family unit is a risk. Damage to the Ap's family is a risk. Theft of time from the family happens as does withholding of intimacy and support.

So, we have a person engaging in an activity that causes these things to happen or , at lest , poses a significant risk of them happening.

So, I conclude that person has no regard for the effect of his or her actions on others. To me, that means lack of empathy to such a degree that it is pathological.

[Cymbeline]

'I have heard that about the attitudes in Europe, but also read posts by Europeans, particularly the french, where they deny that affairs are acceptable and do not cause pain to them. Essentially, they seemed to be saying that this acceptance of affairs allegation is not true.'

 

Well I'm not suggesting they are acceptable at all - and attitudes differ considerably between European countries (the northern countries align more with the US). But the reaction appears slightly different to me and I've lived in Europe ,Asia and America. Anyway, I find Perel humane and realistic in her approach.

[Krashi]

'I have heard that about the attitudes in Europe, but also read posts by Europeans, particularly the french, where they deny that affairs are acceptable and do not cause pain to them. Essentially, they seemed to be saying that this acceptance of affairs allegation is not true.'

 

Well I'm not suggesting they are acceptable at all - and attitudes differ considerably between European countries (the northern countries align more with the US). But the reaction appears slightly different to me and I've lived in Europe ,Asia and America. Anyway, I find Perel humane and realistic in her approach.

 

Generally speaking, what is your observation of the reaction?

[NewLeaf512]

You know, at the height of aids, young people continued to have unprotected sex because they believed they would not contract it.

 

In many European countries construction workers refuse to wear earplugs working with Jack hammers, and eye goggles when working with torches... seems they are "real men" and sparks simply will not fly randomly into their eyes.... every where else, but not their eyeballs. Just won't happen.

 

People have always shown a remarkable capacity to do things that just don't follow common sense.

 

Waywards do not expect to be caught. So why would they concern themselves with PTSD? I would wager that the majority of WS's don't even know that a betrayed spouse will suffer PTSD, or anything like it, I doubt they think beyond, "if s/he finds out s/he'll be pissed. I'll be in the dog house. Most probably say only "I'll cross that bridge when I get to it."

 

I think normal levels of compassion and empathy are in very short supply today. Not just cheaters. I believe they can do it because they refuse to engage the kinds of questions BS's engaged.

 

And I believe that these same people who have cheated, had they not done it YET and found out their spouse was cheating, would be asking the same questions that as cheaters they did not ask.

 

When a person is cheating, they are of a specific mindset. When a person is betrayed, they are of another. More often than ot being the latter makes it almost impossible to understand the former.

 

Quite right Fellini. I see lack of compassion, empathy and concern every day in my role where I see victims of one sort of another each day. Further to your point, the lack of the same characteristics can be found in any cross section of the population of the U.K. for example. Since there was discussion on statistics here earlier: in order to do a stat plan first you determine what you want to study/ prove a/k/a the hypothesis (lack of empathy and compassion is a common character defect in adults)Secondly, determine a sample size and power calculation. Write the Protocol. Recruit subjects based on study criteria and questionnaire . Generate randomisation etc. Conduct study. Interim lock break and if value is good continue study. Derive raw data into data sets. Break the Blind. Calculate statistical inference. Use p-value to prove or null the study.

 

I can calculate the sample size and power. (Not using N-query). Finding participants should be easy.

 

Fellini, I don't have to do a study to agree. What makes me sad is that I think once a culture loses compassion it may not be able to be retrieved.

 

Krashi you mention your exhaustive reading on the subject of infidelity. What source do you find most credible and why?

 

Gottman thought he had an algorithm (unbelievable that anyone believed that now) which was debunked by a over 40 year old undergraduate studying mathematics at a "institution that is not highly regarded" however many marriage therapists still use the "Gottman Method" to this day, particularly in America.

[NewLeaf512]

I think nature and nurture contribute to the formation of a Cluster B, and, it is a continuum.

This is ,pretty much a res ipsa type of analysis, butit makes sense to me: if you observe someone demonstrating a severe lack of empathy, say Michael Vick, his actions demonstrate that he does, in fact have no empathy or very little.

 

So, in an affair situation, especially with long term cheating, i think we can agree that STDs are a risk. Psychological injury is a risk. Destruction of the family unit is a risk. Damage to the Ap's family is a risk. Theft of time from the family happens as does withholding of intimacy and support.

So, we have a person engaging in an activity that causes these things to happen or , at lest , poses a significant risk of them happening.

So, I conclude that person has no regard for the effect of his or her actions on others. To me, that means lack of empathy to such a degree that it is pathological.

 

This has a fact in it !!

 

Are you aware of the diagnostic criterion for cluster B?

[NewLeaf512]

I will watch her some more. Chump lady has written about her often,and her criticisms make a lot of sense to me. Essentially, I have not been impressed with her analysis, but will give her more consideration. She struck me shallow and glib.

As far as cheater not considering the consequences of their actions, I think that indicates a lack of empathy. While it may be true that they do not realize PTSD may ensue, no adult of normal intelligence is unaware of the grave threat of injury this poses to their spouse, both psychologically and physically.

STDs are a real risk and we have much more information about them than kids did back in the early 1980's. And, we are talking about adults here vs kids.So, the maturity and the added info we now have has to be factored in and makes your analogy inapplicable, IMO.

The workers with no protection are risking their own well being, not that of others, another major distinction.

 

If you jaywalk you are taking a risk of being hit by a car that is substantially greater than at a pedestrian crossing. If you get hit and there are others who see it, which will cause them trauma and perhaps PTSD, do you consider any possible witnesses mental health when you do it?

[NewLeaf512]

I stand corrected. A 50 year old mature part time post graduate university student studying pyschology at a minor uni named Nick Brown. Here I cite the source The British amateur who debunked the mathematics of happiness | Science | The Guardian

[Krashi]

This has a fact in it !!

 

Are you aware of the diagnostic criterion for cluster B?

 

Very much so.

[Krashi]

Quite right Fellini. I see lack of compassion, empathy and concern every day in my role where I see victims of one sort of another each day. Further to your point, the lack of the same characteristics can be found in any cross section of the population of the U.K. for example. Since there was discussion on statistics here earlier: in order to do a stat plan first you determine what you want to study/ prove a/k/a the hypothesis (lack of empathy and compassion is a common character defect in adults)Secondly, determine a sample size and power calculation. Write the Protocol. Recruit subjects based on study criteria and questionnaire . Generate randomisation etc. Conduct study. Interim lock break and if value is good continue study. Derive raw data into data sets. Break the Blind. Calculate statistical inference. Use p-value to prove or null the study.

 

I can calculate the sample size and power. (Not using N-query). Finding participants should be easy.

 

Fellini, I don't have to do a study to agree. What makes me sad is that I think once a culture loses compassion it may not be able to be retrieved.

 

Krashi you mention your exhaustive reading on the subject of infidelity. What source do you find most credible and why?

 

Gottman thought he had an algorithm (unbelievable that anyone believed that now) which was debunked by a over 40 year old undergraduate studying mathematics at a "institution that is not highly regarded" however many marriage therapists still use the "Gottman Method" to this day, particularly in America.

 

Intersting article on John and Julia Gottham on the Chumplady Site the other day, New Leaf. One of the posters that commented on his conclusions has a PhD. In psychology and she points out the flaws in his research quite wll.

I have read so many infidelity books. Lusterman, Pittman, Glass, Abram Spring, Vaughn, Langley, are some I recall. I have read a lot o n the Cluster B stuff, as well.

Truthfully, i think most of my current thinking is based on the Cluster B stuff, combined with reading a lot of posts by cheaters and OW/OM.

I know one cannot make a definitive diagnosis of anyone this way. But, as I mentioned to you once before, realistically, most cluster B folks go undiagnosed, as they avoid therapeutic scrutiny at all costs.

So, I read these posts and I converse with other BSs re their experience with the cheater in their relationship.

Now, I know that the BS may be somewhat biased in assessing the cheater, likely due yo the abuse (gaslighting, verbal abuse, witholding of intimacy, etc.) Suffered during the affair.

But, I consistently have described to me incredibly selfish, entitled, abusive behavior pre-dating the affair.

Then, I read the CHEATER'S posts and glean , once again, entitlement, lack of remorse, lack of empathy(and ,based on their having come to these types of board, these are supposed to be the cream of the crop in terms of remorse and owning their shyte.)

I believe that folks who write about this stuff, really, are probably not a whole lot more informed or insightful than many of the folks who come to these sites. They claim expertise, but, really, this subject is not a hard science or all that complex.

I bet fellini is as expert as these credentialed experts, as are other posters who have studied infidelity.