Christians and War

[Timshel]

Thank you Joy.

 

I wasn't trying to put down any scriptural conversation....more asking for thought beyond scripture. For me, reading/studying the Bible has led to deeper thought and relationship with God.

 

I rarely quote the Bible anymore because I have lost any separation between prayer and being. It strikes me now as 'otherness'/we/they as though spiritually there is any difference.

 

To the topic of war, rigid adherence to any belief and absence of flexibility/humility would be and has been the cause of violence/war.

[joystickd]

Thank you Joy.

 

I wasn't trying to put down any scriptural conversation....more asking for thought beyond scripture. For me, reading/studying the Bible has led to deeper thought and relationship with God.

 

I rarely quote the Bible anymore because I have lost any separation between prayer and being. It strikes me now as 'otherness'/we/they as though spiritually there is any difference.

 

To the topic of war, rigid adherence to any belief and absence of flexibility/humility would be and has been the cause of violence/war.

 

I know. People miss the context. God has no issue with war. The Old Testament a victim's family was allowed to take revenge for murder. The murderer could avoid this by going to a city of refuge and stay there. It just gets me when people just speak on New Testament and forget Old Testament. As a Christian you go by that too.

[Satu]

Christians are good at war.

[Timshel]

I know. People miss the context. God has no issue with war. The Old Testament a victim's family was allowed to take revenge for murder. The murderer could avoid this by going to a city of refuge and stay there. It just gets me when people just speak on New Testament and forget Old Testament. As a Christian you go by that too.

 

I was raised a Christian Methodist, in the deep South. I will take your judgement of me and let it pass.

 

It's been a few years gone that I have referred to myself as a Christian and have had 'difficult' discussions with some friends who identify themselves as such.

 

No, I do not 'go by that too.'

 

I go by God=Love, tolerance, courage, compassion and I think a big part that is much overlooked......learning, discovery and plain awe.

[TheFinalWord]

I am asking this with the deepest respect.

 

I always wonder when threads are quoting scripture back and forth....what is truly in your heart and mind.

 

Scripture is meant to nudge us to higher levels of thought/action, not a shell to hold a permanent state of being. Or do you think so?

 

If you believe Christian scripture is the end of enlightenment...how do you reconcile differences of belief and scientific evidence of life after death that do not align with Christianity?

 

War has been our path, so far....no matter religion, faith or doctrine.

 

Anthropologically, we are a horribly violent species and always have some religion to moralize/rationalize our behavior.

This malice categorically aligns us within an animal and evolving species.

 

I believe in God but am fascinated by the literal/dogmatic translations and wonder about personal introspection/responsibility that I believe true spirituality involves.

 

Real question, zero sarcasm.

 

Hi Tishmel,

 

No disrespect taken. After all if we can't discuss on a discussion board, what's the point?

 

What you are basically asking is what is the point of apologetics. I think

might help.

 

Basically, there are some Christians that prefer only surface-level...God is love, God will judge and I don't really see the point in digging that deep. I would say that is not really the position we as Christians are supposed to take. It is better for us to dig deep into the bible, to find out exactly what is God saying. I guess it will also depend on your perspective of the bible. If you do not see the bible as the inerrant, final authority, direct Word from God, you may not see the relevancy of digging deep into each Word of the bible. However, if we look at the example Christ set, no only did he debate with the religious leaders of the day using scriptures, he based entire arguments on a single word from the scripture.

[Timshel]

Hi Tishmel,

 

No disrespect taken. After all if we can't discuss on a discussion board, what's the point?

 

What you are basically asking is what is the point of apologetics. I think

might help.

 

Basically, there are some Christians that prefer only surface-level...God is love, God will judge and I don't really see the point in digging that deep. I would say that is not really the position we as Christians are supposed to take. It is better for us to dig deep into the bible, to find out exactly what is God saying. I guess it will also depend on your perspective of the bible. If you do not see the bible as the inerrant, final authority, direct Word from God, you may not see the relevancy of digging deep into each Word of the bible. However, if we look at the example Christ set, no only did he debate with the religious leaders of the day using scriptures, he based entire arguments on a single word from the scripture.

 

Thank you for responding TFW.

I do not see the Bible as the final authority but I have tremendous respect for it.

 

It seems disingenuous for any person to assert persuasion from biblical scripture no matter how sincere.

 

The people that I have known in my lifetime who are religiously aggressive (bible thumpers) are the same who are the most hypocritical and prone to violence.

 

I am in no way suggesting that either you or OP are. (Bethe, sweetest ever. I have read enough of your posts in the political forum to know that both of you are very smart, even if I don't always agree with TFW.)

I am clumsily trying to express a long-standing frustration with Christians and people who use scripture to validate actions/behavior.

I am fully aware that there are/have been many religions who are equally/more fanatical.

 

I was a Christian and I am speaking to my own experience, not other religions that have no spiritual influence on me.

I have not had a fall from faith....if anything, my relationship with God has strengthened.

 

This bothers me.....that any violence or war would be justified by the Bible. I am well aware scripture and vengeance. I have reached a point, personally, that using the adulterated word of God to gain power is the converse of the Word itself.

 

Uuggh.....it isn't God/Creation that I question. It is humanity, and it is humanity who kills, wars and perverts God....my opinion.

[TheFinalWord]

I am in no way suggesting that either you or OP are. (Bethe, sweetest ever. I have read enough of your posts in the political forum to know that both of you are very smart, even if I don't always agree with TFW.)

 

Sure, no I don't think you are saying that.

 

It seems disingenuous for any person to assert persuasion from biblical scripture no matter how sincere.

 

If it seems disingenuous, than how do you explain Christ using that very approach? I will spare you from quoting verses

 

That is the aspect of your conviction I have a hard time understanding.

 

This bothers me.....that any violence or war would be justified by the Bible. I am well aware scripture and vengeance. I have reached a point, personally, that using the adulterated word of God to gain power is the converse of the Word itself.

 

Uuggh.....it isn't God/Creation that I question. It is humanity, and it is humanity who kills, wars and perverts God....my opinion.

 

I understand. Well, I am not saying we should use the bible to justify war. I am saying there are times the bible recognizes that war is needed and in the context of this particular thread, that being a soldier in the military is not inherently sinful or anti-Christian. I'm not saying "use this verse or that verse to justify attacking country x or y"...Thanks!

[joystickd]

I was raised a Christian Methodist, in the deep South. I will take your judgement of me and let it pass.

 

It's been a few years gone that I have referred to myself as a Christian and have had 'difficult' discussions with some friends who identify themselves as such.

 

No, I do not 'go by that too.'

 

I go by God=Love, tolerance, courage, compassion and I think a big part that is much overlooked......learning, discovery and plain awe.

 

That is no judgement. I just point out that realistically it's not cut and dry a stance on violence. I'm just one that believes if you call yourself a Christian then you believe in the whole Bible not one book or Testament. There is no intent on offending anyone when I said that. We all believe in the love and tolerance but you do have to consider that the reality is Abrahamic religions are not truly that tolerant of people outside of them in some ways.

 

For me I believe in God but have issues with Christianity but that is for another thread.

[Timshel]

TheFinalWord

If it seems disingenuous, than how do you explain Christ using that very approach? I will spare you from quoting verses

 

Thank you.

 

That is the aspect of your conviction I have a hard time understanding.

I am not convicted to Christianity or any religion.

 

I understand. Well, I am not saying we should use the bible to justify war. I am saying there are times the bible recognizes that war is needed and in the context of this particular thread, that being a soldier in the military is not inherently sinful or anti-Christian. I'm not saying "use this verse or that verse to justify attacking country x or y"...Thanks!

 

My belief is that war is a result of people defending themselves against perceived threats.....land, food, personal safety and most important..wealth.

Being a soldier in the military is not inherently evil and I did not write or imply that.

Soldiers do not wake up, brandish weapons and kill people. They follow a chain of command. This remark is to brand me as unpatriotic.

This exemplifies my distrust.

 

I am saying that with our vast global resources, modern war is contrived, manipulative and has nothing to do with God.

[TheFinalWord]

TheFinalWord

If it seems disingenuous, than how do you explain Christ using that very approach? I will spare you from quoting verses

 

Thank you.

 

That is the aspect of your conviction I have a hard time understanding.

I am not convicted to Christianity or any religion.

 

 

Okay.

 

My belief is that war is a result of people defending themselves against perceived threats.....land, food, personal safety and most important..wealth.

Being a soldier in the military is not inherently evil and I did not write or imply that.

Soldiers do not wake up, brandish weapons and kill people. They follow a chain of command. This remark is to brand me as unpatriotic.

This exemplifies my distrust.

 

I am saying that with our vast global resources, modern war is contrived, manipulative and has nothing to do with God.

 

Agreed. No, I'm not saying you said that, but that is sort of the issue in this thread. Why do Christians go to war? It's complicated and each scenario has to be examined. Yes, they follow orders, but people voluntarily join the military knowing they could be called upon to fight and kill. The only exception is modern times with the Vietnam war in which people were drafted (my dad being one).

 

Another interesting perspective is if the President of the US declares war, and claims to be a Christian, is he or she doing something that goes against the Christian faith? The President in the US is the commander in chief of the military. I personally don't think it is so cut and dry.

[Timshel]

Okay.

 

 

 

Agreed. No, I'm not saying you said that, but that is sort of the issue in this thread. Why do Christians go to war? It's complicated and each scenario has to be examined. Yes, they follow orders, but people voluntarily join the military knowing they could be called upon to fight and kill. The only exception is modern times with the Vietnam war in which people were drafted (my dad being one).

 

Another interesting perspective is if the President of the US declares war, and claims to be a Christian, is he or she doing something that goes against the Christian faith? The President in the US is the commander in chief of the military. I personally don't think it is so cut and dry.

 

 

No, I don't think it's cut and dry either. That's kind of why I'm struggling with issues like this lately. Not having a clear opinion in my mind always bothers me and I will turn it, chew on it, evaluate and dissect it until I arrive at an informed conclusion......and most important to me, one that I can stand behind.

 

I'm not a wishy-washy person so my current ambivalence is unsettling to me. I'll think on it, thank you for your opinion and response.

Edited March 8, 2016 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
Fix quote

[SSJROMANCE]

Religion is the worlds number one problem. Funny how many groups are at war over religion. We would all be better off if religion was outlawed. Stick with what you see in front of you and you will live a happier life.

[Doop]

Jesus never directly spoke about slavery except for passages like 1 Peter 2:18 where he tells slaves to submit themselves fully to their masters, especially the cruel ones.

 

The moral laws were established with moses in the old testament. Some of these laws entail killing apostates, homosexuals, and unruly children. They also provide specific instructions for how to keep slaves and how much one is permitted to beat their slaves. The laws laid out in these books are some of the most diabolical and wicked laws one could imagine, and if the US adopted these laws today it would be worse to live in than North Korea and Iraq combined.

 

In the new testament, Jesus addresses these old testament laws at the beginning of the sermon on the mount in Matthew 5:17-19. In this passage he says not a jot or tittle of the old laws will be abolished until heaven and earth have passed away, and whoever disobeys the least of them will be the least in the kingdom of heaven.

 

In conclusion, the bible is an immoral book written by a band of ancient immoral, ignorant, travelling thugs in bronze and iron-age middle east. The best thing to do is stop trying to reconcile its absurdities with the modern world and use your own moral intuition to make your moral decisions. Religions got their morals from us, not the other way around. And their moral tenets adapted as we gained a better understanding of right and wrong and reality over the ages. Ergo, religion is ancient, barbaric bull****.

[Doop]

Religion is the worlds number one problem. Funny how many groups are at war over religion. We would all be better off if religion was outlawed. Stick with what you see in front of you and you will live a happier life.

 

I agree up to the point where you say religion should be outlawed. Religion is a belief ultimately, which is a thought in one's mind. We cannot persecute people for their thoughts or prevent people from believing what they want. That would be just as dogmatic and totalitarian as religions are.

 

The best thing we can do is to build up education, promote free-thought and skepticism, and teach our children how to think, and not what to think. It is already getting better in the US. Nonbelief is becoming much more accepted and numbers of the non-religious are definitely on the rise. People are becoming less and less afraid to come out as atheists or agnostics. I think within 50-100 years we will be much closer to having a world more free of religion. One can only hope.

[BetheButterfly]

You just totally ignore the Old Testament like it didn't exist.

 

No I don't. I understand however that I should not sacrifice animals like God commanded the Children of Israel via Moses (See Leviticus). Why? Because Jesus Christ is the Lamb of God who fulfilled the blood sacrifices, thank God!

 

I also understand that it is against Jesus' commands to kill homosexuals (Leviticus 20:13), heterosexual adulterers (Leviticus 20:10), witches (Leviticus 20:27), blasphemers (Leviticus 24:14), children who curse their parents (Leviticus 20:9), and so on, even though the Law God gave to the Children of Israel via Moses commanded death for all the above.

 

Being a Christian does not equal obeying the Law God gave to the Children of Israel before Jesus Christ came. Jesus Christ brought a New Covenant (Luke 22:20) through His blood that Jeremiah prophesied would come (Jeremiah 31:31).

 

One of the earliest issues of the Church (family of believers in Jesus Christ) was if Gentiles had to obey the Law of Moses. Peter, one of the apostles Jesus chose, had this to say: (I boldened some.)

 

Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe. God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. He did not discriminate between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith. Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of Gentiles a yoke that neither we nor our ancestors have been able to bear? No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are.” - Acts 15:7b-11 (NIV)

 

God gave Peter and the other apostles His Spirit to guide them (Acts 2).

Jesus Christ tore down the "wall of hostility" between Jews and Gentiles (Ephesians 2:14) and united both groups into one. He fulfilled the bloody requirements of the Law God gave to the Children of Israel via Moses. Christians are thus to obey Jesus Christ.

[joystickd]

No I don't. I understand however that I should not sacrifice animals like God commanded the Children of Israel via Moses (See Leviticus). Why? Because Jesus Christ is the Lamb of God who fulfilled the blood sacrifices, thank God!

 

I also understand that it is against Jesus' commands to kill homosexuals (Leviticus 20:13), heterosexual adulterers (Leviticus 20:10), witches (Leviticus 20:27), blasphemers (Leviticus 24:14), children who curse their parents (Leviticus 20:9), and so on, even though the Law God gave to the Children of Israel via Moses commanded death for all the above.

 

Being a Christian does not equal obeying the Law God gave to the Children of Israel before Jesus Christ came. Jesus Christ brought a New Covenant (Luke 22:20) through His blood that Jeremiah prophesied would come (Jeremiah 31:31).

 

One of the earliest issues of the Church (family of believers in Jesus Christ) was if Gentiles had to obey the Law of Moses. Peter, one of the apostles Jesus chose, had this to say: (I boldened some.)

 

Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe. God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. He did not discriminate between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith. Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of Gentiles a yoke that neither we nor our ancestors have been able to bear? No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are.” - Acts 15:7b-11 (NIV)

 

God gave Peter and the other apostles His Spirit to guide them (Acts 2).

Jesus Christ tore down the "wall of hostility" between Jews and Gentiles (Ephesians 2:14) and united both groups into one. He fulfilled the bloody requirements of the Law God gave to the Children of Israel via Moses. Christians are thus to obey Jesus Christ.

You are still missing the point I'm trying to make.

[BetheButterfly]

So, if there was no other alternative, war would be justified?

 

Some people do think that the "end justifies the means" but for Christians, what Jesus Christ commands is important. The people who walked and talked with Jesus learned first-hand that He did not want them to be violent. For example, Jesus rebuked Peter for what Peter probably thought was justified violence:

 

"Then Simon Peter, who had a sword, drew it and struck the high priest’s servant, cutting off his right ear. (The servant’s name was Malchus.) Jesus commanded Peter, “Put your sword away! Shall I not drink the cup the Father has given me?” - John 18:10-11 (NIV)

 

Christians can learn from Jesus' command to Peter, or ignore Him. Doctor Luke obviously was fascinated that Jesus not only rebuked Peter for violence, but also healed Malchus' ear!

 

"When Jesus’ followers saw what was going to happen, they said, “Lord, should we strike with our swords?” And one of them struck the servant of the high priest, cutting off his right ear.

But Jesus answered, “No more of this!” And he touched the man’s ear and healed him." - Luke 22:49-51 (NIV)

 

Isn't that powerful? Jesus healed the man Peter struck!!! (The Red Cross, by the way, follows Jesus Christ's example and maintains neutrality by healing people of both sides of a war.)

 

Jesus' message rings loud and clear to those who listen: "Put your sword away!" "No more of this!" Do American Christians listen to the lessons the apostles learned?

 

In Matthew, Jesus' rebuke is more detailed:

"With that, one of Jesus’ companions reached for his sword, drew it out and struck the servant of the high priest, cutting off his ear. “Put your sword back in its place,” Jesus said to him, “for all who draw the sword will die by the sword. Do you think I cannot call on my Father, and he will at once put at my disposal more than twelve legions of angels? But how then would the Scriptures be fulfilled that say it must happen in this way?” - Matthew 26:51-54 (NIV)

 

Jesus makes it clear that He doesn't need or want His human followers to fight by the sword (or with any physical weapon). After all, Jesus Christ is the commander of the angels! If He wants to kill people, He doesn't need the help of people to kill other people, that's for sure!

 

Try using civil disobedience in ISIS controlled territory.

Christians there do, same as Christians in the pagan Roman Empire did and suffered for it. This is in fulfillment to Jesus' prophecy that His followers will be persecuted for Him. Please note that Jesus never said to persecute others for Him, but rather that His followers will be persecuted for Him.

 

As Paul (who was on both sides of the spectrum at different stages of his life) stated,

 

"In fact, everyone who wants to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted, while evildoers and impostors will go from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived. But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of, because you know those from whom you learned it, and how from infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus." - 2 Timothy 3:12-15 (NIV)

 

Suffer for the name of Christ, but if terrorists just want to wreck havoc on us, Christians in the military are not fighting back for their Christian faith

This is very true, that Christians in the military are not fighting for their faith, because Jesus Christ commanded love for enemies and He didn't make nationalist exceptions. Also, there's a reason why drafts exclude men with religious convictions not to fight, because there is unavoidable evidence in the Bible and in the lives of Jesus' apostles that fighting is against Jesus' commands.

 

, they are fighting for the freedom of their country. They are fighting for those that are even Non-Christians to freely pick their religion of choice.

True.

 

Yes, I understood this thread was about Christians that were in the military, for example? Is it inherently a sin and are they still able to say they are Christians if they have to kill to defend American freedom.

Is it a sin to kill enemies since Jesus Christ commands His followers to love their enemies? That's for Jesus Christ to say. If Peter had decided to ignore Jesus and kill Malchus with his sword after he cut off his poor ear (Jesus obviously didn't give His disciples sword lessons), would that have been acceptable, do you think?

 

Sure everyone has the right to identify how they want. Sadly, Christians have in the past killed other Christians for not being their kind of Christian. Ironic, isn't it?

 

The type of question I am seeing this thread can answer...

 

"Can a Christian special operator kill ISIS terrorists and still be a Christian?"

 

I would say absolutely yes. In fact, I would say God Bless those brave men and women.

According to the logic of killing enemies, do you believe these Christians should have killed Saul?

 

"And Saul approved of their killing him.On that day a great persecution broke out against the church in Jerusalem, and all except the apostles were scattered throughout Judea and Samaria. Godly men buried Stephen and mourned deeply for him. But Saul began to destroy the church. Going from house to house, he dragged off both men and women and put them in prison." - Acts 8:1-3 (NIV)

 

That would have been so brave of them, wouldn't it, to have killed Saul and his companions who were persecuting them. Why didn't they disobey Jesus Christ and kill Saul and his companions? Could it be that God had a better plan than people killing other people?

 

Yes, I agree if someone persecutes you personally for your faith, you should love them and pray for them. I am talking about an organized effort, like ISIS, that wants to kill as many innocent Americans as possible.

And why does ISIS want to kill people? Because of their faith. They believe Allah wants them to conquer the world. This is a spiritual war spilling into the physical realm. The weapons needed to win this war are thus not physical, but rather spiritual. Paul, who was a persecuter yet became a persecuted Christian, talks about the armor of God (Ephesians 6)

 

The armor of God is what we need to defeat ISIS, and the Taliban, and Boko Haram, and all the other groups that believe Allah wants his people to kill other people. Sadly by the way, Christian history is full of Christians killing other people. An important difference between Islam and Christianity is that Jesus Christ never led His followers into physical warfare whereas Muhammad did. Muhammad was a very successful military commander whose military victories convinced other Arab tribes to obey him.

 

 

Can a Christian in the US Army, Navy, Air force, kill terrorists that want to wreck havoc on our country. These are people that will kill women that "disobey" their husbands, cut off the heads of Christians, drown in cages anyone they perceive as against their extremist brand of Islam.

If a Christian truly wants to obey Jesus Christ, he or she will love enemies like Jesus did. Please remember what Jesus allowed people to do to Him for us. Soon, churches all over the world will be remembering the horrible pain, torture and suffering that our Savior endured to take away our sins.

 

Remember: Jesus said, “Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.” And they divided up his clothes by casting lots." - Luke 23:34 (NIV)

 

Please remember what the Christians who face-to-face knew Him or knew those who did suffered for Jesus:

 

Remember: " While they were stoning him, Stephen prayed, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.” Then he fell on his knees and cried out, “Lord, do not hold this sin against them.” When he had said this, he fell asleep." - Acts 7:59-60 (NIV)

 

Are American Christians immune to the example of Jesus Christ and Stephen?

Yes, that is true, and another war had to be waged to end slavery. The Civil War.

The English ended slavery without a physical war. I don't think Americans were incapable of ending slavery without a physical war.

They did actually have the freedom, some just did not want to give it, which is why Lincoln issued the Emancipation Proclamation. The constitution does give those Americans the rights of all other Americans.

Then why did the presidents before Lincoln not enforce the law?

 

I'm not talking about using force to spread the gospel. I agree that is wrong. I'm talking about fighting terrorists. Can a Christian soldier fight terrorists. If the POTUS who states he is a Christian approves the US military to take out terrorists, is he sinning?

If Peter had ignored Jesus' rebuke and killed someone with his sword, would he have sinned? Or would he have been justified? If the Christians who were being persecuted by Saul had killed him and his companions, would they have sinned? Or would they have been justified?

 

Personally, I believe the reason more American Christians do not personally hear God's voice is because they try to take justice into their own hands instead of obeying Jesus Christ. Ananias, who could have decided to kill Saul, instead heard specifically from God to minister to a zealous enemy of Christians. When was the last time an American Christian heard from God in such a way?

[joystickd]

I'll pose this question: Would you feel like taking revenge if someone killed you spouse or child? Be really honest about how you would feel. Would you want to kill or hurt that person?

 

When I say people forget it I mean Christians take the word of Jesus and hold it as the standard and ignores people being human. Look at people like David, Gideon, Samson, Noah, Moses, etc in the Old Testament went flawed and human in the sense they succumb to something. They would serve as good examples of people and stories that would provide lessons for people. I understand what Jesus is saying but I feel the stories of those guys benefit more as a way of having some things that provide an example of what not to do. Plus Christianity understands the role of government and the need to protect the well being of people. I felt the pacifism part referred to you dealing with everyday. War isn't an everyday thing. Its something governments do.

[BetheButterfly]

I am asking this with the deepest respect.

 

I always wonder when threads are quoting scripture back and forth....what is truly in your heart and mind.

 

What is truly in my heart and mind is Jesus Christ's commands.

 

 

Scripture is meant to nudge us to higher levels of thought/action, not a shell to hold a permanent state of being. Or do you think so?

 

I've never considered Scripture to be a shell. Scripture does indeed nudge me to what I believe are higher levels of thoughts and action. For example, war is an ancient method of sustenance that people around the world have used to acquire human slaves and other resources, including precious metals, land, and supplies.

 

Is there a higher level of thought and action than war? I believe Jesus Christ introduces to the Jewish people and the Gentiles who later decide to follow Him a different way to live, a way that does not include shedding other people's blood for whatever reason.

 

If you believe Christian scripture is the end of enlightenment...how do you reconcile differences of belief and scientific evidence of life after death that do not align with Christianity?

 

I believe there are still many things scientists don't fully understand. Science is based on the scientific method which includes observation and manipulation, as well as experimentation. It's a constantly changing study that depends on what we can experience with our senses and the tools that enhance those senses.

 

 

War has been our path, so far....no matter religion, faith or doctrine.

 

Aye. That is why I personally believe Jesus Christ's pacifist approach is so amazing.

 

The Jewish people were not known to be pacifists, so Jesus was not simply a product of His culture or a "hippy revolution" lol. After all, the Jews had achieved a miraculous military victory over the Greeks who had polluted their Temple, which Jewish people around the world continue to remember during Hanukkah. This was before Jesus' time. The Jewish people were awaiting an Anointed One (Mashiach/Christ) to rescue them from the Roman Empire. Some thought that Jesus Christ was going to lead a war against their Roman oppressors, but He didn't. Instead, He commanded them to love their enemies. That must have been a shock!

 

Anthropologically, we are a horribly violent species and always have some religion to moralize/rationalize our behavior.

 

Sad but true. As a Christian, I personally believe that before Cain killed Abel, we were not a violent species.

 

 

This malice categorically aligns us within an animal and evolving species.

 

Not all animals are violent.

 

I believe in God but am fascinated by the literal/dogmatic translations and wonder about personal introspection/responsibility that I believe true spirituality involves.

 

Out of curiosity, would you prefer that Christians obey Jesus Christ's commands to love, or would you rather them to disobey and kill people with whom they disagree? Sadly, much of Christian history has been corrupted by Christians killing other Christians, as well as Christians killing people who are not Christian.

 

Real question, zero sarcasm

 

Thanks. Blessings!

[joystickd]

Some people do think that the "end justifies the means" but for Christians, what Jesus Christ commands is important. The people who walked and talked with Jesus learned first-hand that He did not want them to be violent. For example, Jesus rebuked Peter for what Peter probably thought was justified violence:

 

"Then Simon Peter, who had a sword, drew it and struck the high priest’s servant, cutting off his right ear. (The servant’s name was Malchus.) Jesus commanded Peter, “Put your sword away! Shall I not drink the cup the Father has given me?” - John 18:10-11 (NIV)

 

Christians can learn from Jesus' command to Peter, or ignore Him. Doctor Luke obviously was fascinated that Jesus not only rebuked Peter for violence, but also healed Malchus' ear!

 

"When Jesus’ followers saw what was going to happen, they said, “Lord, should we strike with our swords?” And one of them struck the servant of the high priest, cutting off his right ear.

But Jesus answered, “No more of this!” And he touched the man’s ear and healed him." - Luke 22:49-51 (NIV)

 

Isn't that powerful? Jesus healed the man Peter struck!!! (The Red Cross, by the way, follows Jesus Christ's example and maintains neutrality by healing people of both sides of a war.)

 

Jesus' message rings loud and clear to those who listen: "Put your sword away!" "No more of this!" Do American Christians listen to the lessons the apostles learned?

 

In Matthew, Jesus' rebuke is more detailed:

"With that, one of Jesus’ companions reached for his sword, drew it out and struck the servant of the high priest, cutting off his ear. “Put your sword back in its place,” Jesus said to him, “for all who draw the sword will die by the sword. Do you think I cannot call on my Father, and he will at once put at my disposal more than twelve legions of angels? But how then would the Scriptures be fulfilled that say it must happen in this way?” - Matthew 26:51-54 (NIV)

 

Jesus makes it clear that He doesn't need or want His human followers to fight by the sword (or with any physical weapon). After all, Jesus Christ is the commander of the angels! If He wants to kill people, He doesn't need the help of people to kill other people, that's for sure!

 

Christians there do, same as Christians in the pagan Roman Empire did and suffered for it. This is in fulfillment to Jesus' prophecy that His followers will be persecuted for Him. Please note that Jesus never said to persecute others for Him, but rather that His followers will be persecuted for Him.

 

As Paul (who was on both sides of the spectrum at different stages of his life) stated,

 

"In fact, everyone who wants to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted, while evildoers and impostors will go from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived. But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of, because you know those from whom you learned it, and how from infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus." - 2 Timothy 3:12-15 (NIV)

 

This is very true, that Christians in the military are not fighting for their faith, because Jesus Christ commanded love for enemies and He didn't make nationalist exceptions. Also, there's a reason why drafts exclude men with religious convictions not to fight, because there is unavoidable evidence in the Bible and in the lives of Jesus' apostles that fighting is against Jesus' commands.

 

True.

 

Is it a sin to kill enemies since Jesus Christ commands His followers to love their enemies? That's for Jesus Christ to say. If Peter had decided to ignore Jesus and kill Malchus with his sword after he cut off his poor ear (Jesus obviously didn't give His disciples sword lessons), would that have been acceptable, do you think?

 

Sure everyone has the right to identify how they want. Sadly, Christians have in the past killed other Christians for not being their kind of Christian. Ironic, isn't it?

 

According to the logic of killing enemies, do you believe these Christians should have killed Saul?

 

"And Saul approved of their killing him.On that day a great persecution broke out against the church in Jerusalem, and all except the apostles were scattered throughout Judea and Samaria. Godly men buried Stephen and mourned deeply for him. But Saul began to destroy the church. Going from house to house, he dragged off both men and women and put them in prison." - Acts 8:1-3 (NIV)

 

That would have been so brave of them, wouldn't it, to have killed Saul and his companions who were persecuting them. Why didn't they disobey Jesus Christ and kill Saul and his companions? Could it be that God had a better plan than people killing other people?

 

And why does ISIS want to kill people? Because of their faith. They believe Allah wants them to conquer the world. This is a spiritual war spilling into the physical realm. The weapons needed to win this war are thus not physical, but rather spiritual. Paul, who was a persecuter yet became a persecuted Christian, talks about the armor of God (Ephesians 6)

 

The armor of God is what we need to defeat ISIS, and the Taliban, and Boko Haram, and all the other groups that believe Allah wants his people to kill other people. Sadly by the way, Christian history is full of Christians killing other people. An important difference between Islam and Christianity is that Jesus Christ never led His followers into physical warfare whereas Muhammad did. Muhammad was a very successful military commander whose military victories convinced other Arab tribes to obey him.

 

 

If a Christian truly wants to obey Jesus Christ, he or she will love enemies like Jesus did. Please remember what Jesus allowed people to do to Him for us. Soon, churches all over the world will be remembering the horrible pain, torture and suffering that our Savior endured to take away our sins.

 

Remember: Jesus said, “Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.” And they divided up his clothes by casting lots." - Luke 23:34 (NIV)

 

Please remember what the Christians who face-to-face knew Him or knew those who did suffered for Jesus:

 

Remember: " While they were stoning him, Stephen prayed, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.” Then he fell on his knees and cried out, “Lord, do not hold this sin against them.” When he had said this, he fell asleep." - Acts 7:59-60 (NIV)

 

Are American Christians immune to the example of Jesus Christ and Stephen?

The English ended slavery without a physical war. I don't think Americans were incapable of ending slavery without a physical war.

Then why did the presidents before Lincoln not enforce the law?

 

If Peter had ignored Jesus' rebuke and killed someone with his sword, would he have sinned? Or would he have been justified? If the Christians who were being persecuted by Saul had killed him and his companions, would they have sinned? Or would they have been justified?

 

Personally, I believe the reason more American Christians do not personally hear God's voice is because they try to take justice into their own hands instead of obeying Jesus Christ. Ananias, who could have decided to kill Saul, instead heard specifically from God to minister to a zealous enemy of Christians. When was the last time an American Christian heard from God in such a way?

When was the last time the Vatican heard from God?

[BetheButterfly]

When was the last time the Vatican heard from God?

 

Good question

 

I personally don't believe in the leadership of the Vatican because I believe the "rock" Jesus Christ talked about is Himself, not Peter or anyone who claims succession to Peter. Jesus Christ is the Good Shepherd, and any Christian leader should in my opinion obey Him, not try to take His place.

 

Sadly, much of Christian history includes Popes and other Christian leaders (including some Protestant leaders) leading physical wars against other people, and killing other people. This is in disobedience to Jesus Christ's commands to love neighbors as oneself and love enemies.

[joystickd]

Good question

 

I personally don't believe in the leadership of the Vatican because I believe the "rock" Jesus Christ talked about is Himself, not Peter or anyone who claims succession to Peter. Jesus Christ is the Good Shepherd, and any Christian leader should in my opinion obey Him, not try to take His place.

 

Sadly, much of Christian history includes Popes and other Christian leaders (including some Protestant leaders) leading physical wars against other people, and killing other people. This is in disobedience to Jesus Christ's commands to love neighbors as oneself and love enemies.

 

It's not even that with me. I just when I got older felt Rome took it and perverted it. It's not what should be but what will give them power.

[BetheButterfly]

It's not even that with me. I just when I got older felt Rome took it and perverted it. It's not what should be but what will give them power.

 

I agree. I believe Rome took Christianity and perverted it.

 

While Constantine allegedly claimed to have a vision about about the cross, he disobeyed Jesus Christ's commands to love neighbors as oneself and love enemies. In his great arch, he doesn't quote Jesus at all but instead shows a very different ideology.

 

"The Arch of Constantine"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ScxWMr19z5c

 

Just like the KKK uses the cross while hating other people, so Constantine and Christian soldiers used the cross to justify killing their enemies. It's very possible that these Roman Christian soldiers had no idea that Jesus Christ commanded His followers to love neighbors as oneself and love enemies. (This was after all much later than the time that Peter went to Cornelius' house - Acts 10).

 

The KKK however has no such excuse, since after the Bible was translated into the layperson's languages, people are free to read what Jesus commands for themselves.

Edited March 8, 2016 by BetheButterfly

[SSJROMANCE]

I agree up to the point where you say religion should be outlawed. Religion is a belief ultimately, which is a thought in one's mind. We cannot persecute people for their thoughts or prevent people from believing what they want. That would be just as dogmatic and totalitarian as religions are.

 

The best thing we can do is to build up education, promote free-thought and skepticism, and teach our children how to think, and not what to think. It is already getting better in the US. Nonbelief is becoming much more accepted and numbers of the non-religious are definitely on the rise. People are becoming less and less afraid to come out as atheists or agnostics. I think within 50-100 years we will be much closer to having a world more free of religion. One can only hope.

 

 

Let me clarify now that I have a little more time. Of course religion is a set of beliefs. But the problem comes in when these beliefs center around some God (which they probably ALL do) that has written a book, is listening to your prayers, is performing miracles, helping you through life and you take time out of your day/week to worship. Maybe we start with closing down all religious establishments.

 

My wife has low self esteem. Why? Because she gives God all the credit for the good things that happen to her and then blames herself for all the bad things that happen. It's the craziest thing I've experienced. It's inconsistent and defies common sense yet because she has been brainwashed her whole life and her whole family is religious it's hard for her to think any other way.

 

My brother in-law, who is married, is super religious. Preaches to his family via texts for many years. Yet while he was preaching through one side of his mouth on the other side he was having an affair. Then lied and denied for years until he was scared he wouldn't make it into heaven so he finally confessed and repented. So here is a man who is pretending to live his life to the purest based on the word of God yet behind closed doors he's doing something else. WHy? These people lack common sense and to compensate they are reading some book to tell them how to live. But I guess because the book is so dam hard to follow they fail over and over and over again. BUT … it's OK because some dude dies for your sins.

[joystickd]

I agree. I believe Rome took Christianity and perverted it.

 

While Constantine allegedly claimed to have a vision about about the cross, he disobeyed Jesus Christ's commands to love neighbors as oneself and love enemies. In his great arch, he doesn't quote Jesus at all but instead shows a very different ideology.

 

"The Arch of Constantine"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ScxWMr19z5c

 

Just like the KKK uses the cross while hating other people, so Constantine and Christian soldiers used the cross to justify killing their enemies. It's very possible that these Roman Christian soldiers had no idea that Jesus Christ commanded His followers to love neighbors as oneself and love enemies. (This was after all much later than the time that Peter went to Cornelius' house - Acts 10).

 

The KKK however has no such excuse, since after the Bible was translated into the layperson's languages, people are free to read what Jesus commands for themselves.

They are free to read the perversion for themselves. I believe Rome perverted it to keep an lasting impact on the world. When you are in power you literally can control the narrative of history to fit the context you need. It's why Jesus looks more like a caucasian than a person of semitic origin. I will say its less of a racism issue and more of a justification for maintaining the status quo subtly.