Christians and War

[TheFinalWord]

Thanks for responding BetheButterfly!

 

I am swamped with work at the moment, but will try to get back to you soon. Don't want you to think I'm avoiding your thread!

 

BTW, I think pacifism is fairly defensible from a biblical perspective, so I don't want any responses I give to come across that I see someone that is against war as somehow anti-Christian.

[TheFinalWord]

Some people do think that the "end justifies the means" but for Christians, what Jesus Christ commands is important.

 

Please note, I am not talking about hypothetical scenarios or ends justifying the means. I'm talking about the means, which in this case is America having to use war, while asking God to not have them do so unless there was no other way, to remove tyranny from their country.

 

If there was no other alternative, as is the case with the origin of US independence, was war justified? If the alternative was continual tyranny, would you think it would be more Christian for our country, right now, to be ruled by a tyrannical government? It's very easy with hindsight to say "oh they weren't following Christ" (its even easier to say that while we live in luxury in a rich country with freedom to say whatever we want), clearly the founders did sincerely seek Christ.

 

The people who walked and talked with Jesus learned first-hand that He did not want them to be violent. For example, Jesus rebuked Peter for what Peter probably thought was justified violence:

 

"Then Simon Peter, who had a sword, drew it and struck the high priest’s servant, cutting off his right ear. (The servant’s name was Malchus.) Jesus commanded Peter, “Put your sword away! Shall I not drink the cup the Father has given me?” - John 18:10-11 (NIV)

 

Christians can learn from Jesus' command to Peter, or ignore Him. Doctor Luke obviously was fascinated that Jesus not only rebuked Peter for violence, but also healed Malchus' ear!

 

"When Jesus’ followers saw what was going to happen, they said, “Lord, should we strike with our swords?” And one of them struck the servant of the high priest, cutting off his right ear.

But Jesus answered, “No more of this!” And he touched the man’s ear and healed him." - Luke 22:49-51 (NIV)

 

Isn't that powerful? Jesus healed the man Peter struck!!! (The Red Cross, by the way, follows Jesus Christ's example and maintains neutrality by healing people of both sides of a war.)

 

Jesus' message rings loud and clear to those who listen: "Put your sword away!" "No more of this!" Do American Christians listen to the lessons the apostles learned?

 

In Matthew, Jesus' rebuke is more detailed:

"With that, one of Jesus’ companions reached for his sword, drew it out and struck the servant of the high priest, cutting off his ear. “Put your sword back in its place,” Jesus said to him, “for all who draw the sword will die by the sword. Do you think I cannot call on my Father, and he will at once put at my disposal more than twelve legions of angels? But how then would the Scriptures be fulfilled that say it must happen in this way?” - Matthew 26:51-54 (NIV)

 

I'm not talking about you or me, individually, using violence. I'm talking about organized government. The apostles were not called to create a government. They were called to evangelize. So if you asking me should Christian missionaries go into foreign countries and use violence to overthrow governments, no. They should work within the laws of that country. But if those people living in that country, agree, and want to overthrow a cruel dictator, they are not sinning if they have to use civil war to do so.

 

I'm talking about organized government. War. There's a difference between war and intrapersonal violence. If I as an individual go around causing violence, yes, that is wrong. But a government using the legal system along with checks and balances to reach a conclusion war is needed for defense, no that is not wrong IMHO. Paul clearly showed, government was established by God to enforce law and fight back against evil. Can this go astray? Yes. Not all war is justifiable. Each case must be examined. Defending our country is justified. In the case of the US, although some of our politicians have ignored the founder's wisdom and the method set forth by the Constitution, to declare war in congress, there are multiple measures that need to be assessed before getting involved in a war.

 

Jesus makes it clear that He doesn't need or want His human followers to fight by the sword (or with any physical weapon). After all, Jesus Christ is the commander of the angels! If He wants to kill people, He doesn't need the help of people to kill other people, that's for sure!

 

Soldiers are not being called to evangelize or to be missionaries. They are there to defend our freedom. It's not the same thing.

 

Personally, I believe the reason more American Christians do not personally hear God's voice is because they try to take justice into their own hands instead of obeying Jesus Christ. Ananias, who could have decided to kill Saul, instead heard specifically from God to minister to a zealous enemy of Christians. When was the last time an American Christian heard from God in such a way?

 

All of your examples are of individuals using their sinful heart to execute vengeance. In cases of individual violence against us personally, we should use the police and the legal system. Not personal retaliation. I am talking about organized government using war to defend themselves from brutal dictators and tyrants. On some levels, the police are also in a similar situation in which they may have to use violence to maintain law and order. Can that be abused? Yes. But if used within the law, is it sinful? No. If some maniac is holding people hostage, the police are not sinning if they have to use violence to save innocent lives.

 

I recommend you read the thoughts and letters of our founders, many of whom, like John Adams, were extremely strong Christians and also believed war was necessary in the presence of tyranny.

Edited March 9, 2016 by TheFinalWord

[TaraMaiden2]

If aggression is used as Defence, it is arguably commendable.

If aggression is used as Attack, it is rarely, if ever, justifiable.

[TheFinalWord]

If aggression is used as Defence, it is arguably commendable.

If aggression is used as Attack, it is rarely, if ever, justifiable.

 

Nice summary!

 

I am personally opposed to the second, which also spills over into my political beliefs. But that's another thread

[Doop]

No I don't. I understand however that I should not sacrifice animals like God commanded the Children of Israel via Moses (See Leviticus). Why? Because Jesus Christ is the Lamb of God who fulfilled the blood sacrifices, thank God!

 

Here's the thing BetheButterfly, this does not soften the issue. The whole concept of Jesus "dying for your sins" does not somehow show your God in a positive light. What it shows the immorality of your God. He still holds you accountable for arbitrary, imaginary "sins" that supposedly happened centuries before any of us were born, sins which he set up to happen in the first place. He could have just forgiven and let that be it (like any reasonable person would). Instead, he ups the ante by not only continuing to punish the decedents for the sins of the fathers (an immoral philosophy in itself), but he creates an added penalty of infinite torture and suffering, simply for not believing in something he doesn't give us good evidence for in the first place. Then he sacrifices himself with the purpose of creating another way we could glorify and worship him. And if we fail to do so, the result will be everlasting burning and pain. And he chooses to reveal this revelation in the most remote and illiterate parts of iron-age middle-east, where the evidence of it would never make it out. And now in the 21st century we have to rely anonymous ancient texts to even have this story at all. No other sources of the time speak of these events.

 

Gee-whiz, for someone who plans to torture you for an eternity for simply not believe in it, this God sure does not intend to give you very good evidence of it.

 

Of course, the Jesus story would make more sense if we weren't talking about a God who is supposedly all-powerful and all-knowing. So if he knew what was going to happen before hand, then this whole story becomes morally-reprehensible and this God character is both evil and dumb as a box off rocks.

[BetheButterfly]

Thanks for responding BetheButterfly! I am swamped with work at the moment, but will try to get back to you soon. Don't want you to think I'm avoiding your thread!

 

No problem! I have to get ready for work soon so I completely understand.

 

 

BTW, I think pacifism is fairly defensible from a biblical perspective,

 

Just "fairly"? It is definitely defensible from a New Testament perspective!

 

so I don't want any responses I give to come across that I see someone that is against war as somehow anti-Christian.

 

Thanks Bro in Christ. I appreciate that. And, I do believe Christians can fight and kill people in war, and still be Christian. I just don't believe loving enemies (which Jesus Christ commands us to do) = killing enemies. So, I do believe war is against Jesus Christ's commands to love enemies and thus disobedience. Just like children can disobey parents, so a child of God can disobey Jesus Christ.

[BetheButterfly]

If there was no other alternative, as is the case with the origin of US independence, was war justified? If the alternative was continual tyranny, would you think it would be more Christian for our country, right now, to be ruled by a tyrannical government? It's very easy with hindsight to say "oh they weren't following Christ" (its even easier to say that while we live in luxury in a rich country with freedom to say whatever we want),

 

Jesus Christ, the Founder of Christianity, did not make it a "Christian" thing to overthrow either the tyrannical Judean government or the tyrannical Roman Empire that was oppressing Judea.

 

So yes actually, I think it is "more Christian" to be ruled by a tyrannical government because of what Jesus Christ said, "So give back to Caesar what is Caesar’s, and to God what is God’s." - Matthew 22:21 b (NIV)

 

I also think it is "more Christian" to nonviolently disobey a "tyrannical government" than to violently fight them, as in the case of Peter and the other apostles: “We must obey God rather than human beings!" - Acts 5:29b (NIV)

 

clearly the founders did sincerely seek Christ.

Like Thomas Jefferson, who cut out of the Bible the miracles Jesus Christ did?

 

"Much of the material Jefferson elected to not include related miraculous events, such as the feeding of the multitudes with only two fish and five loaves of barley bread; he eschewed anything that he perceived as “contrary to reason.” His idiosyncratic gospel concludes with Christ’s entombment but omits his resurrection. "

How Thomas Jefferson Created His Own Bible | Arts & Culture | Smithsonian

 

I'm not talking about you or me, individually, using violence. I'm talking about organized government.

Understood.

 

The apostles were not called to create a government. They were called to evangelize.

Exactly!!! Are Christians not to follow Jesus Christ like the apostles did???

 

So if you asking me should Christian missionaries go into foreign countries and use violence to overthrow governments, no. They should work within the laws of that country.

Even if the laws of that country say no to evangelism, Christian missionaries are willing to lay their lives down in obedience to Jesus Christ. However, Christians are to never ever force conversion or use violence against another person. Every maturing/mature Christian should be a light to the world. Jesus Christ didn't exclude some Christians from the Great Commission, did He?

 

But if those people living in that country, agree, and want to overthrow a cruel dictator, they are not sinning if they have to use civil war to do so.

Do you support Che Guevara's actions? Personally, I don't. While he helped in a civil war against unjust leaders, he became unjust too.

I'm talking about organized government. War. There's a difference between war and intrapersonal violence. If I as an individual go around causing violence, yes, that is wrong. But a government using the legal system along with checks and balances to reach a conclusion war is needed for defense, no that is not wrong IMHO. Paul clearly showed, government was established by God to enforce law and fight back against evil.

Did the Boston Tea Party (which dressed as "Indians" for some reason) obey Jesus Christ's command (Matthew 22:21) and Paul's advice in this passage?

 

"Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also as a matter of conscience. This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God’s servants, who give their full time to governing. Give to everyone what you owe them: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor." - Romans 13:5-7 (NIV)

 

Like it or not, at that time the English monarchy was the authority, and many of American colonists did not submit to their unjust authority. Paul however was telling Christians to submit even to authority because God is the One who gave them that authority.

 

 

Can this go astray? Yes. Not all war is justifiable. Each case must be examined. Defending our country is justified. In the case of the US, although some of our politicians have ignored the founder's wisdom and the method set forth by the Constitution, to declare war in congress, there are multiple measures that need to be assessed before getting involved in a war.

Since this thread is about Christians and war, it's important to see what Jesus Christ commands, right? The US government is specifically not a Christian government. If it were, the Constitution would include Jesus Christ. However, the American Constitution specifically includes separation of church and state. While the Founders of the USA did a great job in noting the issues with church and state, they didn't found the USA on Christianity, which includes Jesus Christ's commands.

 

I personally am not complaining about that, because sadly when Christian monarchs have ruled a state, they have persecuted other Christians and/or people of other beliefs. A "Christian" government that disobeys Jesus Christ's commands to love neighbors as oneself and enemies is much sadder in my opinion than a Non-Christian government who does so.

 

 

Soldiers are not being called to evangelize or to be missionaries. They are there to defend our freedom. It's not the same thing.

Exactly. Christians however are called to be the light of the world and as far as i know, Jesus Christ doesn't exclude any of His followers from the Great Commission. Remember, Jesus Christ it the King of His followers and to Him Christians owe our primary allegiance:

 

Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.” - Matthew 28:18-20 (NIV)

 

The end of the age hasn't come yet. What's one of Jesus' commands? Love enemies! (Matthew 5:43-48; Luke 6:27-37)

 

 

All of your examples are of individuals using their sinful heart to execute vengeance. In cases of individual violence against us personally, we should use the police and the legal system. Not personal retaliation. I am talking about organized government using war to defend themselves from brutal dictators and tyrants. On some levels, the police are also in a similar situation in which they may have to use violence to maintain law and order. Can that be abused? Yes. But if used within the law, is it sinful? No. If some maniac is holding people hostage, the police are not sinning if they have to use violence to save innocent lives.

Most police are not trying to kill civilians. Their job is to protect people. However, soldiers do try to kill their enemies.

 

I recommend you read the thoughts and letters of our founders, many of whom, like John Adams, were extremely strong Christians and also believed war was necessary in the presence of tyranny.

I don't follow John Adams. I follow Jesus Christ.

 

While I respect and agree with John Adam's nonviolent stance concerning the abolition movement, I am disappointed that he did not take a stronger nonviolent stance against slavery.

 

"The Abolition of Slavery must be gradual and accomplished with much caution and Circumspection. Violent means and measures would produce greater violations of Justice and Humanity, than the continuance of the practice."

http://www.gilderlehrman.org/history-by-era/early-republic/resources/john-adams-abolition-slavery-1801

 

If John Adams had a stronger yet nonviolent view concerning slavery, it's possible that he could have helped many children, women, and men of a different skin color escape from undergoing horrid torture, rape, and brutality at the hands of American "Christian" slaveowners. :(

 

William Wilberforce did a great job in taking a very strong and nonviolent stand against slavery. That's one reason why England did not suffer a horrendous civil war in order to end legal slavery.

 

Plese read Frederick Douglass' autobiography. I'd be interested in hearing your views about what he and his loved ones endured at the hands of American "Christian" slaveowners who hurt their neighbors of a different skin color instead of loving them as oneself.

Edited March 10, 2016 by BetheButterfly

[Timshel]

 

Out of curiosity, would you prefer that Christians obey Jesus Christ's commands to love, or would you rather them to disobey and kill people with whom they disagree? Sadly, much of Christian history has been corrupted by Christians killing other Christians, as well as Christians killing people who are not Christian.

Thanks. Blessings!

 

I used to think that because I was taught to be and identified as a Christian, that I was/am against violence.

When I left Christianity (but not God) I knew that I am against violence as a plausible/constructive resolution because it is who I am...at my core.

 

I believe that violence against evil/chaos/cruelty is something that I am capable of but I am certain that I would not be the arbiter...no matter how split second the action would be. My past judgements and actions have borne out a reliable prediction of my behavior and all sensibility leading into it. My inherent relationship with God has guided me to do what your scripture 'commands,' without scripture or the pulpit.

 

I have many family members and friends who are/have been military personnel and in military branches of government. This question has no bearing on my feelings towards men and women who serve our country with the noblest intentions. In fact it leaves little contrary to biblical scripture and Jesus....only that I do not align myself in a dogmatic way to Christianity...which of course is of itself a 'sin.'

 

I have come to believe, Bethebutterfly, that the closer humanity comes to God, the less compartmentalization of God (religion) there will be...leading to less violence in defense of or justified by religion. I believe that there is one First....and we (collective) are not ready/able to envision this Truth yet. That may sound condescending but I assure you it is anything but.

I have a deep respect for you (Christians), love and any person's beliefs as long as these beliefs are not used to harm others.

 

A handful of times I have had spiritual dreams, anyone who has knows what I mean. Last night I had a dream...I was in a crowd and being pushed toward a particular older woman who was looking directly at me and I knew that she was going to speak to me. I especially remember a last hard push making me uncomfortably close to her...closer than I wanted to be and face to face.

She said to me, 'why does your father hold onto to you so tightly, why doesn't he let you go?' I answered, 'I don't know'...to which they all smiled knowingly and nodded and then I woke up.

So the dream is on my mind this morning but proceed with my day.

I had a car accident this morning, my car is maybe a total, the guy who hit me was at fault and apologetic and no one was hurt.

 

Thank you for responding to my post Bethebutterfly, I do listen.

[TheFinalWord]

Jesus Christ, the Founder of Christianity, did not make it a "Christian" thing to overthrow either the tyrannical Judean government or the tyrannical Roman Empire that was oppressing Judea.

 

So yes actually, I think it is "more Christian" to be ruled by a tyrannical government because of what Jesus Christ said, "So give back to Caesar what is Caesar’s, and to God what is God’s." - Matthew 22:21 b (NIV)

 

I also think it is "more Christian" to nonviolently disobey a "tyrannical government" than to violently fight them, as in the case of Peter and the other apostles: “We must obey God rather than human beings!" - Acts 5:29b (NIV)

 

Okay, well I would gladly lay my life down to defend this country for you to have the right to say that.

 

Like Thomas Jefferson, who cut out of the Bible the miracles Jesus Christ did?

 

"Much of the material Jefferson elected to not include related miraculous events, such as the feeding of the multitudes with only two fish and five loaves of barley bread; he eschewed anything that he perceived as “contrary to reason.” His idiosyncratic gospel concludes with Christ’s entombment but omits his resurrection. "

How Thomas Jefferson Created His Own Bible | Arts & Culture | Smithsonian

Understood.

 

Like John Adams, who was one of the main opponents of Jefferson. The founders sought Christ. Look at those that were Christians, if that is the lens you want to filter through.

 

 

Since this thread is about Christians and war, it's important to see what Jesus Christ commands, right? The US government is specifically not a Christian government.

 

Does Paul speak to Christians? Yes, and he said God has instituted government to protect us. They don't bear the sword in vain.

 

Plese read Frederick Douglass' autobiography. I'd be interested in hearing your views about what he and his loved ones endured at the hands of American "Christian" slaveowners who hurt their neighbors of a different skin color instead of loving them as oneself.

 

I have read it and have visited his grave (I'm a huge Civil War buff). Guess what? I also visited the memorial site of the 54th Infantry, the first all black regimen of former slaves that fought in the Civil War to gain their freedom. Guess whose idea the 54th was? Frederick Douglass.

 

"Who would be free themselves must strike the blow....I urge you to fly to arms and smite to death the power that would bury the Government and your liberty in the same hopeless grave. This is your golden opportunity."

...Frederick Douglass

 

Anyway Godbless BetheButterfly! I think we'll just have to disagree on this one. Thanks for taking the time to respond.

Edited March 10, 2016 by TheFinalWord

[BetheButterfly]

I used to think that because I was taught to be and identified as a Christian, that I was/am against violence.

When I left Christianity (but not God) I knew that I am against violence as a plausible/constructive resolution because it is who I am...at my core.

 

Understood.

I believe that violence against evil/chaos/cruelty is something that I am capable of but I am certain that I would not be the arbiter...no matter how split second the action would be. My past judgements and actions have borne out a reliable prediction of my behavior and all sensibility leading into it. My inherent relationship with God has guided me to do what your scripture 'commands,' without scripture or the pulpit.

Out of curiosity, how does one know what "scripture 'commands' without scripture"? I understand about without the pulpit, since people can read the Scripture for themselves.

 

I have many family members and friends who are/have been military personnel and in military branches of government. This question has no bearing on my feelings towards men and women who serve our country with the noblest intentions.

Understood. My Papaw (Mom's Dad)by the way was in the Navy, and I have relatives who have married soldiers. My Papaw doesn't agree with my viewpoint at all, which is fine. While I love and respect my Papaw, I don't base my beliefs on him but rather on Jesus Christ.

 

In fact it leaves little contrary to biblical scripture and Jesus....only that I do not align myself in a dogmatic way to Christianity...which of course is of itself a 'sin.'

Who says not aligning oneself in a dogmatic way to Christianity is a sin?

 

Jesus Chris didn't even call His followers Christians. Jesus' followers started being called "Christians" in Antioch (Acts 11:26).

I have come to believe, Bethebutterfly, that the closer humanity comes to God, the less compartmentalization of God (religion) there will be...leading to less violence in defense of or justified by religion.

That's beautiful. What's your definition of religion please?

 

I believe that there is one First....and we (collective) are not ready/able to envision this Truth yet. That may sound condescending but I assure you it is anything but.

No worries. I understand. Sadly, I'm inclined to agree due to reality.

 

 

I have a deep respect for you (Christians), love and any person's beliefs as long as these beliefs are not used to harm others.

Thanks. I have deep respect and love for you too, and yep, I 100% agree!

 

A handful of times I have had spiritual dreams, anyone who has knows what I mean. Last night I had a dream...I was in a crowd and being pushed toward a particular older woman who was looking directly at me and I knew that she was going to speak to me. I especially remember a last hard push making me uncomfortably close to her...closer than I wanted to be and face to face.

She said to me, 'why does your father hold onto to you so tightly, why doesn't he let you go?' I answered, 'I don't know'...to which they all smiled knowingly and nodded and then I woke up.

So the dream is on my mind this morning but proceed with my day.

Hmm. I wonder if it it has a significant meaning. Fathers are important to their children. Do you feel your father is holding you so tightly?

 

I had a car accident this morning, my car is maybe a total, the guy who hit me was at fault and apologetic and no one was hurt.

I'm so sorry!!! :(

 

I'm so glad you're ok!!!! Does he have insurance to pay for your car to be fixed and for your transportation in the meantime? I thank God you and he are ok!

 

Thank you for responding to my post Bethebutterfly, I do listen.

No problem. I'm sorry it takes me so long to reply sometimes. I really shouldn't be typing now. I should be getting ready for work. Love and blessings

[BetheButterfly]

Okay, well I would gladly lay my life down to defend this country for you to have the right to say that.

 

Aww that's so sweet. Thanks! That's what an Atheist non-pacifist friend who's in the military has told me too.

 

I have told this to my husband and Dad, though they haven't promised anything: if I am ever in danger, please don't kill the criminal. Please pray for him or her. Don't kill him or her.

 

I would rather die than another person be killed in my place. Why? I'm not afraid of death (though I'm not fond of pain). I know where I'm going after I die. I hope that any criminal who hurts or kills me asks God for forgiveness before death, because I want any criminal who ever hurts me to become my bro or sis in Christ. I want to someday see that person in Heaven with me. I don't want that person in hell.

 

 

Like John Adams, who was one of the main opponents of Jefferson. The founders sought Christ. Look at those that were Christians, if that is the lens you want to filter through.

OK.

Does Paul speak to Christians? Yes, and he said God has instituted government to protect us. They don't bear the sword in vain.

And the Roman government used that sword to hurt Christians too.

 

I have read it and have visited his grave (I'm a huge Civil War buff). Guess what? I also visited the memorial site of the 54th Infantry, the first all black regimen of former slaves that fought in the Civil War to gain their freedom. Guess whose idea the 54th was? Frederick Douglass.

 

"Who would be free themselves must strike the blow....I urge you to fly to arms and smite to death the power that would bury the Government and your liberty in the same hopeless grave. This is your golden opportunity."

...Frederick Douglass

Lol you got me there! I didn't know he was pro-war and wasn't a pacifist, even though I did read to his book. I need to reread it. Thanks.

Anyway Godbless BetheButterfly! I think we'll just have to disagree on this one. Thanks for taking the time to respond.

God bless you too Bro and thanks for the kind, prayerful, and thought-provoking discussion!

[BetheButterfly]

that the closer humanity comes to God, the less compartmentalization of God (religion)

 

Sorry, I just now realized that you wrote the definition of religion here: "compartmentalization of God" so never mind my question.

 

I have come to believe, Bethebutterfly, that the closer humanity comes to God, the less compartmentalization of God (religion) there will be...leading to less violence in defense of or justified by religion. I believe that there is one First....and we (collective) are not ready/able to envision this Truth yet.

I agree with you in that sense and what an eloquent statement!

[Timshel]

Understood.

Out of curiosity, how does one know what "scripture 'commands' without scripture"? I understand about without the pulpit, since people can read the Scripture for themselves.

 

~That there are many interpretations of Christian scripture...from fundamentalist Baptist to Orthodox Catholicism, as you know. At this point, I don't subscribe to any of them. ~

 

Understood. My Papaw (Mom's Dad)by the way was in the Navy, and I have relatives who have married soldiers. My Papaw doesn't agree with my viewpoint at all, which is fine. While I love and respect my Papaw, I don't base my beliefs on him but rather on Jesus Christ.

 

~~

 

Who says not aligning oneself in a dogmatic way to Christianity is a sin?

 

~Really? Many (all?) Christians believe absence of Baptism/Christening is a ticket to hell. How about not believing that Jesus is the human embodiment/son of God? Not repenting/tithing or participating in communion...you see where I'm going with this.... ~

 

Jesus Chris didn't even call His followers Christians. Jesus' followers started being called "Christians" in Antioch (Acts 11:26).

That's beautiful. What's your definition of religion please?

 

~Dogma/doctrine...any acts or beliefs that claim an absolute/proprietary knowledge and acceptance of God/Creator in disregard/contempt/condescension of any other. ~

 

No worries. I understand. Sadly, I'm inclined to agree due to reality.

 

 

Thanks. I have deep respect and love for you too, and yep, I 100% agree!

 

~Yeh! ~

 

Hmm. I wonder if it it has a significant meaning. Fathers are important to their children. Do you feel your father is holding you so tightly?

 

~I remember thinking when asked and said I don't know....well, my adoptive father has passed and we weren't very close. My biological father, I have never met. I said I don't know thinking these thoughts....only after the accident it struck me as a more rhetorical question.~

 

I'm so sorry!!! :(

 

I'm so glad you're ok!!!! Does he have insurance to pay for your car to be fixed and for your transportation in the meantime? I thank God you and he are ok!

 

~Thank you, yep thank God. He has insurance as do I and the rest will work itself out as the day(s) unfold.~

 

No problem. I'm sorry it takes me so long to reply sometimes. I really shouldn't be typing now. I should be getting ready for work. Love and blessings

 

Understood, thank you for responding quickly, it's not an expectation. I'm usually pretty bad about it but have found some unexpected time on my hands.

[pie2]

I would rather die than another person be killed in my place. Why? I'm not afraid of death (though I'm not fond of pain). I know where I'm going after I die. I hope that any criminal who hurts or kills me asks God for forgiveness before death, because I want any criminal who ever hurts me to become my bro or sis in Christ. I want to someday see that person in Heaven with me. I don't want that person in hell.

 

Admirable sentiment.

 

 

However, what if someone were about to harm your dad, your husband, or, for example, your child? What if they didn't ask to be martyred for spiritual/religious reasons? Would you want to defend their life, if you could?

 

 

This may have been asked and answered previously. If so, sorry about the repeat!!

[TaraMaiden2]

These heart-felt arguments are utterly pointless and puerile, because we actually hypothesise and naturally take the most noble stance, in our imagination.

 

In reality, who knows what we would do?

 

Any threat to personal safety and well-being tends to rile up the instinct. The majority - the VAST majority - of people threatened with some kind of aggression or physical harm, would try self-defence of some kind, rather than anything else.

 

 

Having read THIS article, however, I'm moved to remember it, and consider following the example, SHOULD such a situation ever arise before me....

[BetheButterfly]

~That there are many interpretations of Christian scripture...from fundamentalist Baptist to Orthodox Catholicism, as you know. At this point, I don't subscribe to any of them. ~

 

Ah, I understand now. Yeah, I think the differences of interpretations just show the diversity of people. What's cool is that any Christian in any group can believe and obey Jesus Christ. Those who follow Jesus Christ are all brothers and sisters in Christ, regardless of man-made denominations! What's not cool is when any group tries to kill each other or anybody else for that matter.

 

~Really? Many (all?) Christians believe absence of Baptism/Christening is a ticket to hell. How about not believing that Jesus is the human embodiment/son of God? Not repenting/tithing or participating in communion...you see where I'm going with this.... ~

I think a lot of the beliefs of "hell" have to do with the mixing of Greco-Roman beliefs into Christianity. While Jesus Christ (who spoke Aramaic and possibly Hebrew) did indeed talk about Sh'ol and Gei-Hinnom, it's different than the Greco-Roman concept in Dante's Inferno.

 

Of the many times Jesus Christ talked about She'ol and Gei-Hinnom, not one of those times did He say that anybody who believes in the absence of baptism/christening or not believing that he is the Son of God is going there.

 

Interestingly, most of the times when Jesus talked about She'ol and Gei-Hinnom, it was about sins people committed against other people, like the rich man who didn't care for the homeless beggar, Lazarus (Luke 16:19-25) and like those whose lusts and hatred lead them into sin (Matthew 5:22-30).

 

What's sad is that humans have used hell as a way to get people to following their own doctrine instead of obeying Jesus Christ. That's why there are Christians of different groups who commit sexual immorality (which Jesus went so far as to use hyperbole to show the importance of not doing) yet condemn those who don't believe in Jesus to hell. Sad, isn't it?

 

 

~Dogma/doctrine...any acts or beliefs that claim an absolute/proprietary knowledge and acceptance of God/Creator in disregard/contempt/condescension of any other. ~

Awesome definition! Thanks!

 

 

~I remember thinking when asked and said I don't know....well, my adoptive father has passed and we weren't very close. My biological father, I have never met. I said I don't know thinking these thoughts....only after the accident it struck me as a more rhetorical question.~

Oh. Please forgive me if I'm being too forward, but do you consider God your Father? Jesus Christ after all taught us that God is our Father in Heaven. He holds those who love Him tightly because He loves us.

 

 

~Thank you, yep thank God. He has insurance as do I and the rest will work itself out as the day(s) unfold.~

I'm so glad!

 

Blessings!

[BetheButterfly]

However, what if someone were about to harm your dad, your husband, or, for example, your child?

 

Hi Pie2! Long time no see! How are you?

 

I'm a firm believer of calling 911 and praying. God after all is the reason why my Dad, husband, and the children in my family (I'm barren) are alive and well to this day. After God, the wonderful police who protect their fellow Americans are the reason. I'm not the reason.

 

The police are vital for a healthy community to survive and live in a safe and pleasant environment. Their job is not to kill Americans, but to protect Americans. Many police officers do a remarkable job of arresting criminals so that they may have a fair and just trial. This is what I believe keeps the USA such a wonderful place to live. Fair trials are much better, in my opinion, than killing a person. Why? Because I believe people can change and criminals can repent of their sins and become good members of society.

 

What if they didn't ask to be martyred for spiritual/religious reasons? Would you want to defend their life, if you could?

Sure, by calling 911. I don't have a gun, if you're asking about that. While I am for the rights of Americans to buy guns, I don't touch them personally. My family members who have guns respect my desire to not own or shoot one. As for using physical strength, I'm not very strong but I'm not against self-defense where the criminal is rebuffed or restrained until the police come and arrest the criminal.

 

This may have been asked and answered previously. If so, sorry about the repeat!!

Nope, not asked before that i remember. No worries!

[pie2]

I'm a firm believer of calling 911 and praying. God after all is the reason why my Dad, husband, and the children in my family (I'm barren) are alive and well to this day. After God, the wonderful police who protect their fellow Americans are the reason. I'm not the reason.

 

The police are vital for a healthy community to survive and live in a safe and pleasant environment. Their job is not to kill Americans, but to protect Americans. Many police officers do a remarkable job of arresting criminals so that they may have a fair and just trial. This is what I believe keeps the USA such a wonderful place to live. Fair trials are much better, in my opinion, than killing a person. Why? Because I believe people can change and criminals can repent of their sins and become good members of society.

 

Thanks for responding, Bethy!!

 

I think calling 911 is very wise. And of course praying is extremely wise! :)

 

I do think that most modern warfare that the US participates in is in the name of "defense". As the police respond locally in order to defend victims, I believe our government looks to military warfare as a last resort used to defend our lives and our freedom. Of course, this is debatable. But I do believe it is a very last resort in the US, compared to some nations who seem rife with mass killing and destruction all for the purpose of dominance and control. I know the USA's past paints a different story, but I'm referring to modern America.

 

Sure, by calling 911. I don't have a gun, if you're asking about that. While I am for the rights of Americans to buy guns, I don't touch them personally. My family members who have guns respect my desire to not own or shoot one. As for using physical strength, I'm not very strong but I'm not against self-defense where the criminal is rebuffed or restrained until the police come and arrest the criminal.

 

Oh, no..I wouldn't think you owned a gun! I'm just talking about some life-and-death scenario where, for example, someone is about to harm someone you love and you're able to intervene. Of course it would be best to temporarily disable the person. But, I'm just talking hypothetically. If it were between a bad guy and your spouse, I imagine any of us would have a hard time sacrificing our beloved without trying to do something.

 

I do agree with TaraMaiden that I think we would all react much differently than we think when we're face-to-face with a truly life-threatening situation. But I think it is important to consider our beliefs and where we stand so that, if confronted with a tragic situation, we have an idea of what we believe and why. Not only that, but as responsible citizens of a nation, we should be aware of the wars we are involved in and why, and what that means to us personally as a voting member of a democracy.

[BetheButterfly]

Thanks for responding, Bethy!!

 

I think calling 911 is very wise. And of course praying is extremely wise! :)

 

 

I do think that most modern warfare that the US participates in is in the name of "defense".

 

Most modern warfare that the USA does is actually to protect American interests around the globe, not so much for "defense." The USA has become an empire in its own right. This however is not what Jesus Christ called His followers to do, since He proclaims the Kingdom of Heaven.

 

 

As the police respond locally in order to defend victims, I believe our government looks to military warfare as a last resort used to defend our lives and our freedom. Of course, this is debatable.

Yes it is debatable and I don't think warfare has been used as a "last resort" in recent history. Interestingly, the weapons industry earns a lot of $ on war, because without war, there'd be less demand for their products.

But I do believe it is a very last resort in the US, compared to some nations who seem rife with mass killing and destruction all for the purpose of dominance and control. I know the USA's past paints a different story, but I'm referring to modern America.

I am grateful that the USA has not been guilty of mass killing for a long time. While I believe the treatment of the Native Americans = genocide, I agree with you that the USA is not as guilty as other nations are in bloodshed. Great point.

Oh, no..I wouldn't think you owned a gun!

Nope!

 

I'm just talking about some life-and-death scenario where, for example, someone is about to harm someone you love and you're able to intervene. Of course it would be best to temporarily disable the person. But, I'm just talking hypothetically. If it were between a bad guy and your spouse, I imagine any of us would have a hard time sacrificing our beloved without trying to do something.

I would definitely try to do something, but i would not try to kill the person because I believe Jesus Christ's command to love enemies is important and that He is the Ultimate Example.

 

I do agree with TaraMaiden that I think we would all react much differently than we think when we're face-to-face with a truly life-threatening situation. But I think it is important to consider our beliefs and where we stand so that, if confronted with a tragic situation, we have an idea of what we believe and why.

Agreed.

 

Not only that, but as responsible citizens of a nation, we should be aware of the wars we are involved in and why, and what that means to us personally as a voting member of a democracy.

Eloquently stated!