He Doesn't Know if He Believes in Marriage

[oldshirt]

The central issue is who has to pay when the marriage ends. It's typically the man, regardless of who's at fault (my experience directly confirms this).

 

Marriage is not about protecting both spouses equally. It's about protecting the woman, no matter what, even if she is at fault. At least, that's how it is in my state.

 

I don't have to prove my love to someone by giving them a bunch of money they did nothing to earn.

 

Marriage is anti male. Look up Karen Straughan.

 

It's not really anti male per se. And it's not really about protecting both spouses equally. It's about making sure that the children are fed and cared for and about and trying to keep people that have been displaced by a spouse leaving them off of public assistance and housing.

 

 

Any more for one spouse to be denied some level of custody, they either have to be abusive, addicted to substances or somehow shown to be an unfit parent. Some degree of shared custody is pretty much the norm. So if one parent makes substantially more than the other, they can expect to pay some degree of child support. Most legitimate parents would not want their children living hand to mouth in squalor anyway. So if the wife substantially outearns her husband, she will likely be paying some degree of child support assuming shared and relatively equal custody.

 

 

If the couple has had a long term marriage and one person outearns the other to large degree, they will also likely have to pay a certain degree of spousal support for a period of time. The amounts and durations and such will depend on a lot of factors and depend on that jurisdiction.

 

 

Again, it is not gender specific. If the female substantially outearns the male, or if he had been the SAHD and she was the breadwinner, she would be the one paying spousal support.

 

 

"Fault" doesn't really factor into it in many places anymore because it's not really the courts job to determine who is a good spouse and who is a crappy one and on average there is less conflict and less mudslinging and ultimately less societal damage when people don't have to prove their spouse was a crappy one.

 

 

Yes, some people set out to screw the other over and if they are dedicated enough to that end, they will find a way to do it. Neither marriage nor nonmarriage can truly protect against that.

 

 

In many marraiges the man outearns the woman during the reproductive years so it is more often that the man writes out the checks. But that is because the courts recognize that the woman's labor bearing and caring for the children within the home is not negated by the man's monetary labor outside the home. Both are considered relevant to household by the court.

 

 

Again it comes down to public assistance and poverty. It will do society no good to kick a spouse and children out into the street with the clothes are their backs if society is going to have to turn around and house and feed them.

 

 

It doesn't really matter whether that person was in the wrong bed with the wrong person or whether they were a crappy spouse or not.

 

 

And that principle is going to apply whether there was legal marriage in place or not. Even if there was no legal marriage in place, if there are minor children involved, there are going to be court sanctioned child support arrangements and shared property division arrangements in place.

 

 

Not being married will not protect anyone from that any more than being married does.

[Ryan_XD]

Just enjoy the time together now whilst you're young and then if marriage happens it happens.

 

To be honest, a lot of people find marriage pointless now'days. Their are just so many people getting married either too young, too soon or just because they feel they need to.

 

Marriage used to be a sacred thing and proof to the person you love that you're devoted to them and only them. A lot of people in today's society can marry and break up in the same year and then a couple years late find "their soulmate" and re-marry. To these people, marriage obviously means nothing and are just following the crowd or feel the need to after being in a LTR.

[basil67]

If the wedding vows were "just words", you wouldn't have had to formally end the relationship through the courts.

 

If those vows had actual meaning, people wouldn't get divorced. Instead they would stay with their partner till death.

 

The fact that no fault divorce is available means that the court recognises that people make promises which they don't keep.

[oldshirt]

One does not need therapy to cure themselves of the belief that marriage is a farce. We've lived it. Been through it.

 

You're welcome to think it's something else. I'm flat out telling you: I have no desire to lose any income or assets a second time.

 

Not to mention the courts gave my cheating ex wife the majority of time with our daughter because she's the mother.

 

I made two vows to myself: no more kids (got a vasectomy) and no more marriages.

 

Marriage has nothing to offer me. Nor does it have anything to offer this man in your anecdote.

 

I'm going to let you in on a secret. We still won't marry, even if it causes you to form a negative opinion about us. Our happiness and financial livelihoods are more important. Marriage is far too expensive; it's priced men out of the market.

 

Fine by me. I don't see many men complaining about not getting married.

 

 

I don't blame you and in many ways I feel the same way myself even though I have not been through a divorce and haven't lost any access to my kids.

 

 

I have no desire for any more kids and got the plumbing disconnected to ensure it doesn't happen as well. If my marriage were to end today, I'd like to find a special someone again but I'd have no intention to marry and I wouldn't become involved with someone wanting more kids and wanting to marry.

 

 

I doubt if many women in an age-appropriate range for me would even want to themselves.

 

 

But the OP to this thread was a never-married, no-kids female in prime reproductive years. For her it is an entirely different reality. in her case if marriage and family is important to her, then she needs to be avoiding nonmarraige-material men like the plague.

 

 

And guys like you and me need to avoid need to avoid gals like her and be open and up front with them about our reluctance to marry and reproduce again.

[sambolini]

Not being married will not protect anyone from that any more than being married does.

 

[MJJean]

If those vows had actual meaning, people wouldn't get divorced. Instead they would stay with their partner till death.

 

The fact that no fault divorce is available means that the court recognises that people make promises which they don't keep.

 

The vows formalize the marital contract. They have meaning in that context even if they aren't kept.

[sambolini]

The vows formalize the marital contract. They have meaning in that context even if they aren't kept.

 

I think what he's trying to say is that the vows have no more meaning than an unmarried person telling their partner that they will spend the rest of their life with that person without marriage.

 

I say, just skip the contract part. People still divorce in droves. The contract is not deterrent for divorce.

 

It is, however, a deterrent into entering into said contract.

[candie13]

One does not need therapy to cure themselves of the belief that marriage is a farce. We've lived it. Been through it.

 

You're welcome to think it's something else. I'm flat out telling you: I have no desire to lose any income or assets a second time.

 

Not to mention the courts gave my cheating ex wife the majority of time with our daughter because she's the mother.

 

I made two vows to myself: no more kids (got a vasectomy) and no more marriages.

 

Marriage has nothing to offer me. Nor does it have anything to offer this man in your anecdote.

 

I'm going to let you in on a secret. We still won't marry, even if it causes you to form a negative opinion about us. Our happiness and financial livelihoods are more important. Marriage is far too expensive; it's priced men out of the market.

 

Fine by me. I don't see many men complaining about not getting married.

you See s therapist to feel better about yourself and integrate / digest whatever happened without allowing it to make you feel bitter or make you think all women are identical . It is shocking, but my ex's biggest fear was exacty the one you mentioned- that the Court system will allow mothers the main rights on the children. I've percieved him sooo... bitter & angry, it scared me.

 

Rest assured, I didn't leave because he made me upset, but because he allowed his failed marriage to destroy his idea of love - and consequently, of commitment. He flat out told me he believed all marriages end in divorce and no couple will end up together. If I adapt this train of thought, of course, marriage Sounds redundant.

 

See, I believe in love. I believe not all couples break down and i also believe in happily ever after and thus, is marriage. I will never make a baby with any man thinking otherwise and especially not to a man who made ne think he already wants 50% of visiting rights if not main - all/ full gusrdianship of the child, in case of a break up. His divorce wasn't even due to cheating and his ex wife refused to use her rights at court and make him pay alimony. I mean, in your case, you got seriously screwed financially and in Court with your Life, so also you drew the same conclusions at him, there is are strong facts behind your decision to never father or marry again. I would never ever even consider conceiving a baby to a man who doesn't believe people are fundamentally good (also plenty of bad around) and who doesn't believe love wins, in the end (also s lot of marriages & couples fail).

 

I believe in self fulfilling prophecies. Believe the world is a bad & bitter place and it will become a bad & bitter place to you. Believe all women are out to get you and you will attract Women who want to get you. Same low Vibration level, the law of attraction is alive & kicking.

 

And of course, just like you, my ex prefered to Hang onto his "money", fears and grim construct of the world instead of giving a woman who loved him a chance. He wanted children but in no way was he believing in love. He wanted children, was expecting the RS to fall apart and was mentally getting ready to fight in court for the parental rights of his unborn child. And what better way to Secure your rights in Court than not to marry the mother and not pay insane alimony amounts? Much higher chances of being treated equally outside an institution whose Main Rolle is to protect the wife / mother and Baby, inside it. No, I refuse to be treated like an uterus on 2 legs whose only role is to produce his offsprings than is disposable and gets discarted out of his life while sharing the baby.

 

Again, i totally Understand where he's coming from but... It'll never happen with me. After that talk - or should i say fight during which he actually talked and shared these views... I ran. Vanished. Never saw him again in my life. The mere idea of kissing & making love to this person made me sick to my stomach.

 

Maybe he will have his baby one day. Outside marriage and fully his. Not with me & not my own. It gives me chills to think i was seriously considering sharing the rest of my life with him. He spoke too soon & I saw through his Game. Some People are seriously seriously f*cked up, with all due respect.

Edited December 4, 2015 by candie13

[T-16bullseyeWompRat]

In summary: Oldshirt enters marriage due to of lack of trust in his partner. Sambolini doesn't enter marriage due to lack of trust in the courts. /discussion

 

Interesting thread though. Sorry OP! You just got the polarizing thread of the week it seems. Marriage is certainly a polarizing subject.

[candie13]

In summary: Oldshirt enters marriage due to of lack of trust in his partner. Sambolini doesn't enter marriage due to lack of trust in the courts. /discussion

 

Interesting thread though. Sorry OP! You just got the polarizing thread of the week it seems. Marriage is certainly a polarizing subject.

Love this post !

 

I just wanna love and be loved and if a potential loss of money (uncertain 'cause I do well) due to our potential break up is an makes my partner not want to mary me, then I shouldn't be seeing him in the first place. I guess it all boils down to "do you actually think love will last forever?". People who don't believe it and who don't mean it should not get married.

[T-16bullseyeWompRat]

Love this post !

 

I just wanna love and be loved and if a potential loss of money (uncertain 'cause I do well) due to our potential break up is an makes my partner not want to mary me, then I shouldn't be seeing him in the first place. I guess it all boils down to "do you actually think love will last forever?". People who don't believe it and who don't mean it should not get married.

 

 

Idk, I feel oldshirt leans towards marriage because of the belief love won't last forever. So protecting your money and assets via marriage would make sense. So that theory goes both ways it seems.

 

Edit: oh duh! I just realized what you are saying is if you marry to protect yourself, you probably shouldn't get married. Sorry I'm a little slow this morning

Edited December 4, 2015 by T-16bullseyeWompRat

[candie13]

I don't need protection of any sort. Did fine single & even better in a couple. Maybe if I had children, I'd look into alimony in case of a breakup, but I live in Switzerland and the rights of children are extremely well protected - in a marriage and outside the wedlock.

 

I just have this extremely romantic view over marriage - it means smth to me, as a symbol. I believe in it.

 

It may well be possible I meet an amazing man and think - yeah, irrelevant of if it works out or not, I'd like to have his baby. And get married later on to another bloke... Who knows, I have no idea. Of course, i'd Love to marry and have children with just one man. But ... Who knows what will happen? The only thing that's really important & really counts is to build an authentic relationship.

 

I think relationships have a logic of their own, some naturally lead to marriage, others to children while others don't resist the test of time & simply die off. I hope to be intouch with it enough to nurture it so that it blossoms in its most beautiful way, wherever it may decide to go.

[T-16bullseyeWompRat]

I think relationships have a logic of their own, some naturally lead to marriage, others to children while others don't resist the test of time & simply die off. I hope to be intouch with it enough to nurture it so that it blossoms in its most beautiful way, wherever it may decide to go.

 

Beautifully put. I love that last sentence!!!

[sambolini]

I don't need protection of any sort. Did fine single & even better in a couple. Maybe if I had children, I'd look into alimony in case of a breakup, but I live in Switzerland and the rights of children are extremely well protected - in a marriage and outside the wedlock.

 

I just have this extremely romantic view over marriage - it means smth to me, as a symbol. I believe in it.

 

It may well be possible I meet an amazing man and think - yeah, irrelevant of if it works out or not, I'd like to have his baby. And get married later on to another bloke... Who knows, I have no idea. Of course, i'd Love to marry and have children with just one man. But ... Who knows what will happen? The only thing that's really important & really counts is to build an authentic relationship.

 

I think relationships have a logic of their own, some naturally lead to marriage, others to children while others don't resist the test of time & simply die off. I hope to be intouch with it enough to nurture it so that it blossoms in its most beautiful way, wherever it may decide to go.

 

I think what it bears down to is what marriage means for men and women. For women (as a general rule, not every woman will fall into this category), marriage means safety and security. And like you, they have a romanticized vision of what marriage is like. To you, it's symbolic gesture of love and commitment.

 

It means something entirely different to millennial men today. It means obligations and responsibilities with very little reward. It means their contributions are minimized because men are "supposed" to do those things, while the actions of women are glorified and revered. And it also means a lifetime of servitude and cost, even if the marriage fails.

 

For men, marriage is truly for the rest of their lives, even if they're no longer with their wives.

 

There is no romanticized version of marriage for men. It doesn't exist for us. What it is is a steaming pile of expectations with no praise or reward.

 

Why do something if no one is grateful for your contributions?

[T-16bullseyeWompRat]

I think what it bears down to is what marriage means for men and women. For women (as a general rule, not every woman will fall into this category), marriage means safety and security. And like you, they have a romanticized vision of what marriage is like. To you, it's symbolic gesture of love and commitment.

 

It means something entirely different to millennial men today. It means obligations and responsibilities with very little reward. It means their contributions are minimized because men are "supposed" to do those things, while the actions of women are glorified and revered. And it also means a lifetime of servitude and cost, even if the marriage fails.

 

For men, marriage is truly for the rest of their lives, even if they're no longer with their wives.

 

There is no romanticized version of marriage for men. It doesn't exist for us. What it is is a steaming pile of expectations with no praise or reward.

 

Why do something if no one is grateful for your contributions?

 

I will have to humbly disagree with you on this one. I think my thoughts on marriage are very romantic. I'll give you an example... When out with my wife we have been asked numerous times how long we have been married. Same response every time, we look at each other and bust out laughing, then tell them we can't remember! People always look shocked about this and say "how can you not know?" To which our reply is "what are we counting for? Would you count to infinity? Cause forever is forever. No need to count!" I don't know about you, but I find that very romantic. We know its 12/21. Can't remember if it was 05,06, or 07 with 100% certainty. I'm pretty sure its 06, but I could be wrong. Guess we can look at the paperwork anytime, but I don't see a need. Neither does she! Warms my heart just thinking about it!

 

My wife is very greatful for my contributions, as I am for hers. I've had some years where I felt abandoned by her. She was going through a tough stretch, and I'm sure I've done this to her at times as well. We always reconnect. I have no doubt in my mind we always will. Even at times when I'm upset and feel she is being ungrateful for something I'm doing, I know in my heart she is very thankful to have me, and grateful for my contributions. I know in my heart I'm extremely lucky and blessed to have her as well.

 

I just texted her and asked what year are celebrating. She said i think 8. So she thinks 07 haha

Edited December 4, 2015 by T-16bullseyeWompRat

[sambolini]

I will have to humbly disagree with you on this one. I think my thoughts on marriage are very romantic. I'll give you an example... When out with my wife we have been asked numerous times how long we have been married. Same response every time, we look at each other and bust out laughing, then tell them we can't remember! People always look shocked about this and say "how can you not know?" To which our reply is "what are we counting for? Would you count to infinity? Cause forever is forever. No need to count!" I don't know about you, but I find that very romantic. We know its 12/21. Can't remember if it was 05,06, or 07. Guess we can look at the paperwork anytime, but I don't see a need. Neither does she! Warms my heart just thinking about it!

 

My wife is very greatful for my contributions, as I am for hers. I've had some years where I felt abandoned by her. She was going through a tough stretch, and I'm sure I've done this to her at times as well. We always reconnect. I have no doubt in my mind we always will. Even at times when I'm upset and feel she is being ungrateful for something I'm doing, I know in my heart she is very thankful to have me, and grateful for my contributions. I know in my heart I'm extremely lucky and blessed to have her as well.

 

As I said, I was speaking generally. I fully recognize that not every couple will fit into that category.

 

What is most telling is that 70% of all divorces are initiated by women. You see it in our culture; husbands and fathers are portrayed as bumbling idiots. By and large, woman have little to no respect for men today. We are seen as superfluous. And oftentimes, a burden. If we weren't a burden, then women wouldn't be divorcing us in droves.

 

I can think of nothing more honorable than to not burden anyone with my presence.

[sambolini]

As I said, I was speaking generally. I fully recognize that not every couple will fit into that category.

 

What is most telling is that 70% of all divorces are initiated by women. You see it in our culture; husbands and fathers are portrayed as bumbling idiots. By and large, woman have little to no respect for men today. We are seen as superfluous. And oftentimes, a burden. If we weren't a burden, then women wouldn't be divorcing us in droves.

 

I can think of nothing more honorable than to not burden anyone with my presence.

 

And I'm going to expand on this further.

 

When I was married, every cent I made went into supporting the family. I had no money for myself to do anything.

 

Now, my income has increased considerably. And since I'm not throwing money down the never ending pit of marriage, I suddenly have all this disposable income.

 

I'm going to take my daughter on a road trip next month for my birthday. Next spring/summer, I'm going to do something I've never done before: visit Europe. I'll be staying in London for about a week.

 

These were things I could only dream about while married, because her income was her income but my income was "our" income (which meant it was hers too).

 

I do what I want, when I want, where I want.

 

There is no possible way that marriage today could possibly compete with that.

 

And since I'm just a burden anyway, I'll go traveling myself. Cheaper that way. Plus I get to go to the places I want to go.

[basil67]

I think what he's trying to say is that the vows have no more meaning than an unmarried person telling their partner that they will spend the rest of their life with that person without marriage.

 

Yes, this is it. (I'm female by the way)

 

Any wedding vows I make would have the same amount of meaning *to me* as a promise made to a partner who I haven't married. Yes, the courts may see it differently, but the attitude of the courts doesn't change my attitude.

[sambolini]

(I'm female by the way)

 

Oops! Sorry, ma'am.

[T-16bullseyeWompRat]

And I'm going to expand on this further.

 

When I was married, every cent I made went into supporting the family. I had no money for myself to do anything.

 

Now, my income has increased considerably. And since I'm not throwing money down the never ending pit of marriage, I suddenly have all this disposable income.

 

I'm going to take my daughter on a road trip next month for my birthday. Next spring/summer, I'm going to do something I've never done before: visit Europe. I'll be staying in London for about a week.

 

These were things I could only dream about while married, because her income was her income but my income was "our" income (which meant it was hers too).

 

I do what I want, when I want, where I want.

 

There is no possible way that marriage today could possibly compete with that.

 

And since I'm just a burden anyway, I'll go traveling myself. Cheaper that way. Plus I get to go to the places I want to go.

 

I'm sincerely glad you have found this happiness in your life. There is nothing else like it

 

You CAN find that same level of happiness in marriage as well. The happiest moments in my life have always been, and always will be, with her. One date I do remember is March 21, 2000, when I asked the cute girl in English class to be my girlfriend on AOL instant messenger, and she said yes. And so the story began...

[Mr. Lucky]

What it is is a steaming pile of expectations with no praise or reward.

 

Why do something if no one is grateful for your contributions?

 

Just. Not. True.

 

sambolini, you might try stating "my marriage was a steaming pile of expectations with no praise or reward".

 

You're painting with a very broad brush...

 

Mr. Lucky

[sambolini]

Just. Not. True.

 

sambolini, you might try stating "my marriage was a steaming pile of expectations with no praise or reward".

 

You're painting with a very broad brush...

 

Mr. Lucky

 

Again, I will reiterate that not every marriage is like that.

 

But when women are responsible for initiating 70% of all divorces, one cannot help but come to the conclusion that they are a poor investment.

[sambolini]

Again, I will reiterate that not every marriage is like that.

 

But when women are responsible for initiating 70% of all divorces, one cannot help but come to the conclusion that they are a poor investment.

 

It also begs the question: why are three out of four wives doing this? When you look at how modern media and pop culture view men/husbands/fathers, it's quite easy to see why.

[candie13]

Sambolini... It's not because women initiate 70% of divorces that they are the only ones wanting the divorce. Most of them are forced to leave - because most men don't care either way, from the moment they've emotionally desinvested. It takes a lot of energy & force to leave. S/he who leaves has to deal not only with the pain of the separation but with the guilt of having given up. In most of my RS, I have left. It was my free Choice maybe in a quater of cases... 75% i felt i had no other choice...

 

If I may... Women need men and partners dearly. It would be a pity to let those deamons from your past and feeling of rejection create a distorted image of women and their potential of truly investing emotionally in a relationship. I may be self sufficient as an individual, I am incomplete as a woman. I do feel I want and need a partner. Not any partner and not immediately. A decent man.

 

I am sorry you've had such a difficult marriage. Just... Remember that the world is a huge huge place, filled with both horrible & wonderful people. Seek better and aim high .

[candie13]

Again, I will reiterate that not every marriage is like that.

 

But when women are responsible for initiating 70% of all divorces, one cannot help but come to the conclusion that they are a poor investment.

to quote a big guy "there are lies, there are bigger lies, and then there's statistics". Question the logic behind that high number & research it a bit.