Some input is greatly appreciated!

[testmeasure]

Normally there are specific things they believe about themselves that they use to feel good about themselves.

 

My ex was very intelligent. She believed she had an extremely high IQ and was smarter than just about everyone around her.

 

But that's a general thing. Usually there will be specific things too.

 

We were one of those couples that all of our friends said if anyone should have kids we should. I think she got a lot of satisfaction out of thinking of us as the perfect couple.

 

When we met, every relationship she had been in previously had been a disaster and had involved some kind of abuse. I think she was at just the right point in life where being "a perfect" couple was exactly the thing that would allow her to feel good about herself.

 

She also had another story going at the same time. She believed that one day she would quit her job, change to a different career and become world famous.

 

Eventually we decided to have a kid. So she replaced that with wanting to think of herself as a "perfect mom".

 

She worked from home. I ended up taking more and more care of our daughter as she started to sleep less and become mobile.

 

Now she had to sit there and watch me pay attention to our daughter instead of paying attention to her. Worse, she had to watch me care for our daughter instead of her. It violated both the perfect couple and perfect mom stories for her.

 

Being in a situation where the stories they need to tell themselves to feel good enough to make it through the day are totally broken is a horrible experience.

 

If in your case he is a narcissist, it sounds like, something about what ever story he uses to feel good about himself is functioning less effectively but not totally broken.

 

Maybe just knowing that you guys were planning to start a family did that in some way.

 

If you can figure out what his narrative or story is, you might be able to predict some of his behavior after separation.

 

Are there any key things he takes great pride in. Are there things that it might feel to you like he places himself on a pedestal for. What things about himself and his life are most important to him?

 

If he is a narcissist, hopefully what I've described and asked will make sense.

 

 

.

Edited January 12, 2016 by testmeasure

[MellyMel]

Normally there are specific things they believe about themselves that they use to feel good about themselves.

 

My ex was very intelligent. She believed she had an extremely high IQ and was smarter than just about everyone around her.

 

But that's a general thing. Usually there will be specific things too.

 

We were one of those couples that all of our friends said if anyone should have kids we should. I think she got a lot of satisfaction out of thinking of us as the perfect couple.

 

When we met, every relationship she had been in previously had been a disaster and had involved some kind of abuse. I think she was at just the right point in life where being "a perfect" couple was exactly the thing that would allow her to feel good about herself.

 

She also had another story going at the same time. She believed that one day she would quit her job, change to a different career and become world famous.

 

Eventually we decided to have a kid. So she replaced that with wanting to think of herself as a "perfect mom".

 

She worked from home. I ended up taking more and more care of our daughter as she started to sleep less and become mobile.

 

Now she had to sit there and watch me pay attention to our daughter instead of paying attention to her. Worse, she had to watch me care for our daughter instead of her. It violated both the perfect couple and perfect mom stories for her.

 

Being in a situation where the stories they need to tell themselves to feel good enough to make it through the day are totally broken is a horrible experience.

 

If in your case he is a narcissist, it sounds like, something about what ever story he uses to feel good about himself is functioning less effectively but not totally broken.

 

Maybe just knowing that you guys were planning to start a family did that in some way.

 

If you can figure out what his narrative or story is, you might be able to predict some of his behavior after separation.

 

Are there any key things he takes great pride in. Are there things that it might feel to you like he places himself on a pedestal for. What things about himself and his life are most important to him?

 

If he is a narcissist, hopefully what I've described and asked will make sense.

 

 

.

 

 

I never thought he was narcissistic until I stopped trying to save our marriage and our therapist called him a narcissistic sociopath. I always thought he was immature, emotionally unavailable, SUPER selfish, and insecure. If you said anything about him/his work that he perceived as negative ( and almost everything was perceived as negative in his head), he would show his lack of immaturity by flipping out.

 

We weren talking about starting a family, but nothing was set in stone. He just can't handle being a team. He is far too selfish to realize that team work is what takes to make a relationship work. After 5 years, he was still resistant to that.

[MellyMel]

Curious if any of you experienced this with a spouse who kept threatening to leave and eventually left.

 

My husband and I are in the midst of a separation - he is still moving out his stuff, has been for the past two weeks. He keeps it consistent in terms of never being reliable. If he says something is happening on Saturday... you don't know if it's Saturday, Wednesday or maybe next Friday.

 

Anyway, he has been acting normal for the past two weeks. Acting normal (since we are still in the same place for another week) by attempting to have long winded conversations with me that I shut down. Inviting me to brunch, inviting me to go shopping, asking about my whereabouts. I have said no to every invite, I have told him that he doesn't get the privilege of asking me questions of my whereabouts anymore, etc.

 

All of a sudden he's interested in small talk.

 

I hope that once he's out and I start focusing on myself that in 2-3 months he doesn't come knocking expressing regret. My therapist said that he'll most likely do that eventually, and when he does, I shouldn't even entertain the idea because he's selfish and "mentally disturbed" ...that even if I were to take him back, that things would be ok for a few months and he would go back to being the selfish, narcissistic, emotionally abusive partner.

 

Have any of you experienced that with you ex's after they left? The begging and pleading. I guess I'm just trying to emotionally prepare myself to say no if that were to happen.

[testmeasure]

My ex went from hostile and angry for over a year to happy and friendly overnight. That was months ago and she has been happy friendly ever since. With a couple minor exceptions.

 

I have no idea if she's found some way of being happy about the outcome, is trying to build things up for us to reconcile, or if it's all an act and she's doing it for access and to get my guard down while she gathers evidence.

 

He may be happy he's getting his way.

 

He may be trying to keep his options open with you.

 

He may be playing "the good guy" and documenting it for the divorce.

 

Maybe some combination of all of that, or maybe something else completely different. Once you're no longer working as a team, it's hard to know.

 

.

[MellyMel]

My ex went from hostile and angry for over a year to happy and friendly overnight. That was months ago and she has been happy friendly ever since. With a couple minor exceptions.

 

I have no idea if she's found some way of being happy about the outcome, is trying to build things up for us to reconcile, or if it's all an act and she's doing it for access and to get my guard down while she gathers evidence.

 

He may be happy he's getting his way.

 

He may be trying to keep his options open with you.

 

He may be playing "the good guy" and documenting it for the divorce.

 

Maybe some combination of all of that, or maybe something else completely different. Once you're no longer working as a team, it's hard to know.

 

.

 

I thought about all of that. I don't think he's trying to document things for the divorce because he knows that if we get lawyers involved while separated (we have to be separated for 12 months here before filing), he stands to lose A LOT more than I do. So I know that he wants to keep this cordial in that sense.

 

 

As for keeping his options open...who knows. Probably. He asked if I plan to date. Again, none of your business.

 

 

But asking me to go to brunch, dinner, shopping, etc? What's wrong with you? You destroyed us. You don't want to be married but have the nerve to ask me to spend time with you. He's either completely delusional or so detached that he's unaffected by the separation.

 

I truly hope that when he finally moves out for good and is all alone in a new place without furniture that this hits him. REALLY hits him. Perhaps this is just wishful thinking on my part because his selfishness is limitless.

[LifesontheUp]

I thought about all of that. I don't think he's trying to document things for the divorce because he knows that if we get lawyers involved while separated (we have to be separated for 12 months here before filing), he stands to lose A LOT more than I do. So I know that he wants to keep this cordial in that sense.

 

 

As for keeping his options open...who knows. Probably. He asked if I plan to date. Again, none of your business.

 

 

But asking me to go to brunch, dinner, shopping, etc? What's wrong with you? You destroyed us. You don't want to be married but have the nerve to ask me to spend time with you. He's either completely delusional or so detached that he's unaffected by the separation.

 

I truly hope that when he finally moves out for good and is all alone in a new place without furniture that this hits him. REALLY hits him. Perhaps this is just wishful thinking on my part because his selfishness is limitless.

 

Its not what I would call normal behaviour all the way through. Its quite clear he has issues and I hope you feel strong enough not to get suckered back in by his more "lucid" moments.

 

Try not to think about whether being on his own hits or not. Just think what a lucky escape you had and there could be a child in the mix.

 

Life is out there, try go and make some new memories and friends

[MellyMel]

Its not what I would call normal behaviour all the way through. Its quite clear he has issues and I hope you feel strong enough not to get suckered back in by his more "lucid" moments.

 

Try not to think about whether being on his own hits or not. Just think what a lucky escape you had and there could be a child in the mix.

 

Life is out there, try go and make some new memories and friends

 

Thank you for that. I'm trying. I know I'll be better off eventually. I'm just having a hard time letting go of the life we could have had together as opposed to the life that I've been living. If that makes sense? I count my blessing that we didn't have children. As much as I want to have them...so glad I didn't have any with him.

[DevastatedDiva]

Wow. You nailed it. That's him. "say that with narcissism, he wouldn't appear to be needy. The opposite. He would have an almost perfect or grandiose self image and presence. But underneath it, he would be dependent on your attention and validation of that image to maintain that view of himself. " He was SOOOOO needy, still is, but the facade was that of a confident, put together man. I was called controlling because for years I attempted to turn him into a team player. Instead of trying to be a team player and be a good husband, he just called me controlling. Funny that now that our marriage is ending he is telling me that I was right. That in addition to the counsellor calling him a narcissistic sociopath, his mom said that she suspected he was but didn't know how to tell him.

 

 

Hi. I found your story. I'm so sorry that you are going through this too. I tried and tried to engage mine. What I know now though is that no matter what I did, said or felt, I can't change anyone. They can only change themselves.

[LifesontheUp]

Thank you for that. I'm trying. I know I'll be better off eventually. I'm just having a hard time letting go of the life we could have had together as opposed to the life that I've been living. If that makes sense? I count my blessing that we didn't have children. As much as I want to have them...so glad I didn't have any with him.

 

Yes it makes sense. I did it for 18 yrs

 

Mellymel, time is a healer, but you have to believe that you will be ok and take steps to move on with your life. Yes its hard to let go of the life you had with him. But try and remember that the life you had could be good for a while then he reverts to the selfish cruel person that makes you suffer.

 

I think you can see he isn't worth it. In time you will look back and think what a lucky escape you had.

[MellyMel]

Hi. I found your story. I'm so sorry that you are going through this too. I tried and tried to engage mine. What I know now though is that no matter what I did, said or felt, I can't change anyone. They can only change themselves.

 

Exactly. More importantly, we shouldn't have to try to engage our husbands. They should want to work on the marriage just as much as we do.

[MellyMel]

Yes it makes sense. I did it for 18 yrs

 

Mellymel, time is a healer, but you have to believe that you will be ok and take steps to move on with your life. Yes its hard to let go of the life you had with him. But try and remember that the life you had could be good for a while then he reverts to the selfish cruel person that makes you suffer.

 

I think you can see he isn't worth it. In time you will look back and think what a lucky escape you had.

 

Thank you. Every day is a rollercoaster, but every single day I feel more relieved that he did this. "When someone shows you who they are, believe them." I remember thinking about this quote a few years ago whilst continuing to make excuses. Never again.

[DevastatedDiva]

Hi. How are you doing today?

[MellyMel]

Hi. How are you doing today?

 

I'm sorry for the late reply. I just saw this.

 

He moved out last night. I feel sad and relieved at the same time. Sad because I invested so much and I wanted my investment to pay off. I wanted him to work at it. Relieved because I no longer have to justify his bull**** actions to myself, friends, family. I don't have to live in a 'but, but, but, he'll change his ways.' I get to focus on myself and live in the now.

 

Last night as he was moving out his last box he asked me how I was doing. I responded great. Yourself? "Sad. Sad because I have nothing to come back to from my business trip." I said, sad? Why? This is what YOU wanted. He replied "Yes, I know you mentioned that already. If you want to talk about any of this, text me when I get back." No, I won't be doing that.

 

I have now finally admitted to myself that there is something mentally wrong with him.

[MellyMel]

How are you? Have you tried speaking to your husband?

[testmeasure]

Last night as he was moving out his last box he asked me how I was doing. I responded great. Yourself? "Sad. Sad because I have nothing to come back to from my business trip." I said, sad? Why? This is what YOU wanted. He replied "Yes, I know you mentioned that already. If you want to talk about any of this, text me when I get back." No, I won't be doing that.

 

I have now finally admitted to myself that there is something mentally wrong with him.

 

What is his mindset toward the kids? Has he indicated anything about how much or how often he wants to see them? Where will he see them? At your place? With you present? Are you worried at all about him being alone with them or having them alone at his place, and if so why?

 

Do you have any feel for whether there is any chance he will use the kids as a weapon, either to manipulate you, to try and get you to get back together, to get back at you, to avoid paying child support, or even just to make your life miserable because his is?

 

If anything like that happens, document it. If you have any sense that it will happen, look into filling and getting a temporary parenting plan in place. It's a schedule and set of rules for how the kids are handled.

 

If he is going to be difficult, having written rules is a huge benefit to you.

 

For example, if you have a mutually agreed or court established time for when you are supposed to get them back from him, it makes it harder for him to try and make you feel guilty about taking them back at that time.

 

I know you may not be "ready" to think about things like that yet. But it's also important for you to have it in the back of your mind, in case he starts to get difficult about the kids.

 

People have a lot of misconceptions about how kids are handled in a divorce. Who knows what he may think or try and convince you is proper. If anything seems the least bit "off" about what's going on with the kids, at least post here.

Edited January 29, 2016 by testmeasure

[MellyMel]

What is his mindset toward the kids? Has he indicated anything about how much or how often he wants to see them? Where will he see them? At your place? With you present? Are you worried at all about him being alone with them or having them alone at his place, and if so why?

 

Do you have any feel for whether there is any chance he will use the kids as a weapon, either to manipulate you, to try and get you to get back together, to get back at you, to avoid paying child support, or even just to make your life miserable because his is?

 

If anything like that happens, document it. If you have any sense that it will happen, look into filling and getting a temporary parenting plan in place. It's a schedule and set of rules for how the kids are handled.

 

If he is going to be difficult, having written rules is a huge benefit to you.

 

For example, if you have a mutually agreed or court established time for when you are supposed to get them back from him, it makes it harder for him to try and make you feel guilty about taking them back at that time.

 

I know you may not be "ready" to think about things like that yet. But it's also important for you to have it in the back of your mind, in case he starts to get difficult about the kids.

 

People have a lot of misconceptions about how kids are handled in a divorce. Who knows what he may think or try and convince you is proper. If anything seems the least bit "off" about what's going on with the kids, at least post here.

 

Luckily we don't have any children. Three years ago I told myself that I didn't want to have kids with him. I want kids, but I just couldn't bring myself to have them with someone who would threaten to leave every single time we had an argument. Despite all of this, I stayed thinking, hoping, wishing things would change. I guess subconsciously I thought that I could get away with the "not ready yet" excuse for another couple of years - without raising questions. Also, if I had them , I know that he would be a great day...he's just an awful partner... doesn't know how to be one. Isn't interested in being one.

 

Now that we've separated, I'm freaking out about not becoming a mom. I guess despite my unhappiness with him, I knew that I had the option of having kids. I'll be 32 years old this year. I'm not "old", but meeting someone new isn't something that I'm clearly in the right state of mind to think about now. Not for a while. So I find myself panicking over potentially never finding the right person to have children with. I do want a life partner to share them with.

 

Hopefully all these irrational fears will subside once the pain goes away.

 

I have started to doubt the last 8-10 years of our relationship. I don't know if he's ever been genuine, if he ever cared, etc. When a professional says that your husband is a narcissistic sociopath, your family members finally come forward and tell you that they've suspected he was emotionally abusive and extremely selfish from day one, you start rewinding the film and certain scenes that you've intentionally forgotten about are blown up in your mind again ...it's so scary. I feel like I never knew him. I feel like the man I fell in love with, the man I was hoping would show up and be the partner that I knew he could be is a farce. Scary.

[testmeasure]

Now that we've separated, I'm freaking out about not becoming a mom. I guess despite my unhappiness with him, I knew that I had the option of having kids. I'll be 32 years old this year. I'm not "old", but meeting someone new isn't something that I'm clearly in the right state of mind to think about now. Not for a while. So I find myself panicking over potentially never finding the right person to have children with. I do want a life partner to share them with.

 

Hopefully all these irrational fears will subside once the pain goes away.

 

Sorry. I got my wires crossed as to which thread I was on.

 

It's better that there aren't kids.

 

A. Being 32 and wanting them, but needing to recover from something like this, is not an impossible problem to solve in a healthy way.

 

B. Having kids with a Narcissist and staying together would be impossible to do in a healthy way.

 

C. Having, kids with a Narcissist, getting divorced, trying to coparent with a Narcissist is difficult, but I've got to hope possible to do in a way that is healthy for the kid, because that's the situation I'm in.

 

From where I stand now, looking back, I wouldn't trade my daughter to avoid any of what I've been through. I love my daughter, and she comes with option C, so I accept that.

 

If you're at the point before having kids, looking forward, A would be the hands down choice.

 

Every book out there says the Narcissists will show their bad side to their kids eventually. This means my daughter may one day have to face the constant anger and hostility I faced. If your husband has the emotional reaction of a 6 year old, how is he going to react when the kids rebel, act out, or assert their independence as teenagers.

 

You wouldn't choose C on a looking forward basis.

 

I have started to doubt the last 8-10 years of our relationship. I don't know if he's ever been genuine, if he ever cared, etc. When a professional says that your husband is a narcissistic sociopath, your family members finally come forward and tell you that they've suspected he was emotionally abusive and extremely selfish from day one, you start rewinding the film and certain scenes that you've intentionally forgotten about are blown up in your mind again ...it's so scary. I feel like I never knew him. I feel like the man I fell in love with, the man I was hoping would show up and be the partner that I knew he could be is a farce. Scary.

 

"you start rewinding the film and certain scenes that you've intentionally forgotten about are blown up in your mind"

 

That's a good description. I remember most of what happened pretty clearly. I had those memories all a long. But when you're out of the situation and you play back the memory for the first time, there can be a sudden realization that, hey that wasn't normal or acceptable behavior.

 

Not all Narcissists are identical. You've referred to him as being very selfish. There's a range of different things that different Narcissists do when they "don't get their way". One of the things I found helpful was to go on Youtube. There are a ton of people who do videos about having had narcissistic parents or partners. It's really insightful when you find a set of videos by someone who's Narcissist expressed their narcissism in a way similar to what you experienced.

 

In my case, I found this young guy, he couldn't have been much out of high school. Maybe early 20s. So I'm like twice his age. But when he described the anger and hostility his dad had, and how the dad used it. It could have been me describing my ex. When he described his reaction to it, it was exactly how experiencing it made me feel. It was very validating and I learned a lot.

 

Everything you learn and piece together, everything you get from others who went through a similar experience, is all going to effect how those movies get played back each time you watch them. Over time, the overall picture of what happened will get clear and make more sense.

 

 

.

Edited January 30, 2016 by testmeasure

[testmeasure]

I have started to doubt the last 8-10 years of our relationship. I don't know if he's ever been genuine, if he ever cared, etc.

 

I feel like I never knew him. I feel like the man I fell in love with, the man I was hoping would show up and be the partner that I knew he could be is a farce. Scary.

 

I got focused on the part between those two.

 

Before the year of anger and hostility, we had almost an entire decade where things seemed too good to be true.

 

Everyone gave us a lot of compliments on being the perfect couple.

 

There was quite a Facebook shrine to herself and us as a perfect couple.

 

I thought it was love. But I look back and remember how it felt. There was this pedestal like quality to it. Not like I was putting her on a pedestal, more like we were on it together.

 

I have to look back and realize that maybe what she was actually experiencing was not love for me, but pride in herself and pride in us being the perfect couple.

 

It sounds like your husband bases a lot of his emotional wellbeing on his work. You said he's over sensitive and thinks anything people are saying about it is bad, and flips out.

 

When I met my ex, every relationship she had been in had been a disaster, ending with some kind of abuse. I think at that stage in her life, being able to find one that didn't just work, but where we were a perfect couple gave her something she could use to feel real happy about herself.

 

A lot of the happiness did have an element of pride to it. But I figured, why not, she's finally in a relationship that's working great, she should feel proud. I probably encouraged it.

 

There may simply be no external way for me to tell the difference between her loving me and her feeling pride in herself and pride in us as the perfect couple.

 

Finally, I decided that it doesn't matter. Either way we made each other happy during that time.

 

......

 

When we had our daughter, my ex added a "perfect mom" narrative.

 

She was working from home. As our daughter slept less and became more mobile, I started having to take care of our daughter more and more while she worked.

 

So, she's a "perfect mom" and we're a "perfect couple".

 

Yet, every day she has to watch me pay attention to our daughter instead of paying attention to her. Every day she has to watch me take care of our daughter instead of her taking care of our daughter.

 

Result: Constant anger and hostility. Narcissistic Rage.

 

You say your husband is selfish and has the emotions of a 6 year old. Imagine how he would act if, on EVERYTHING important to him, he didn't "get his way", but had to sit there and watch the opposite of it for a year.

 

Understanding that part was clear cut. Going back and realizing the implications for the good period, had me feeling like the two quotes from you at the top.

Edited January 30, 2016 by testmeasure

[DevastatedDiva]

How are you? Have you tried speaking to your husband?

 

 

Mine is really crazy. My friends stopped in for a coffee (man and wife) and spouse asked the man for his mobile number while I was out of the room in the kitchen. I find this out the next day when the wife texts me at work to thank me for the coffee and mentions it. I've been friends with these people for years and my spouse doesn't even like them much, has nothing in common with them, and has never shown an interest in communicating. WTF is that all about?!?

 

Then today kissed me on the cheek on the way out the door.

 

It sounds very much like your spouse asking you on dates and things. I honestly don't get it.

 

I'm sorry you are sad right now. This isn't meant to sound bad but I am actually jealous of you right now. Your spouse moved out. Mine will never move out. I will have to do it. You also have your family around. How are you feeling today? I'm sending thoughts across the miles that you are ok.

[MellyMel]

Sorry. I got my wires crossed as to which thread I was on.

 

It's better that there aren't kids.

 

A. Being 32 and wanting them, but needing to recover from something like this, is not an impossible problem to solve in a healthy way.

 

B. Having kids with a Narcissist and staying together would be impossible to do in a healthy way.

 

C. Having, kids with a Narcissist, getting divorced, trying to coparent with a Narcissist is difficult, but I've got to hope possible to do in a way that is healthy for the kid, because that's the situation I'm in.

 

From where I stand now, looking back, I wouldn't trade my daughter to avoid any of what I've been through. I love my daughter, and she comes with option C, so I accept that.

 

If you're at the point before having kids, looking forward, A would be the hands down choice.

 

Every book out there says the Narcissists will show their bad side to their kids eventually. This means my daughter may one day have to face the constant anger and hostility I faced. If your husband has the emotional reaction of a 6 year old, how is he going to react when the kids rebel, act out, or assert their independence as teenagers.

 

You wouldn't choose C on a looking forward basis.

 

 

 

"you start rewinding the film and certain scenes that you've intentionally forgotten about are blown up in your mind"

 

That's a good description. I remember most of what happened pretty clearly. I had those memories all a long. But when you're out of the situation and you play back the memory for the first time, there can be a sudden realization that, hey that wasn't normal or acceptable behavior.

 

Not all Narcissists are identical. You've referred to him as being very selfish. There's a range of different things that different Narcissists do when they "don't get their way". One of the things I found helpful was to go on Youtube. There are a ton of people who do videos about having had narcissistic parents or partners. It's really insightful when you find a set of videos by someone who's Narcissist expressed their narcissism in a way similar to what you experienced.

 

In my case, I found this young guy, he couldn't have been much out of high school. Maybe early 20s. So I'm like twice his age. But when he described the anger and hostility his dad had, and how the dad used it. It could have been me describing my ex. When he described his reaction to it, it was exactly how experiencing it made me feel. It was very validating and I learned a lot.

 

Everything you learn and piece together, everything you get from others who went through a similar experience, is all going to effect how those movies get played back each time you watch them. Over time, the overall picture of what happened will get clear and make more sense.

 

 

.

 

You know something...the more I think about his dysfunctional childhood, the more I realize that his mother is also a narcissist. A BIG ONE. His parents divorced when he was very young. His father remarried and moved to a different country, focused on his new family. My husband would visit him every summer. His mother dated quite a bit and eventually remarried when he was in his teens. My husband took on the role of the man in the house (at the age of 8), was getting up to make breakfast for his mom, cleaning, taking care of himself. She wasn't a mother. She focused on herself, going out, etc. When she finally remarried, she encouraged my husband to find a place of his own (at the age of 17). I, now, know that it wasn't because she wanted him to be independent. She encouraged the move because it was EASIER for her. He was in the way of her new life. She's a nice lady, but also isn't aware ( or maybe doesn't want to admit) that her son is damaged because of her lack of mothering.

 

Many kids with dysfunctional childhoods grow up to be normal, well adjusted adults and partners. My husband isn't one of those people. He still hasn't admitted to himself that he has issues, let alone apologized to me for treating me like **** and making me the scapegoat for all his issues.

[MellyMel]

I got focused on the part between those two.

 

Before the year of anger and hostility, we had almost an entire decade where things seemed too good to be true.

 

Everyone gave us a lot of compliments on being the perfect couple.

 

There was quite a Facebook shrine to herself and us as a perfect couple.

 

I thought it was love. But I look back and remember how it felt. There was this pedestal like quality to it. Not like I was putting her on a pedestal, more like we were on it together.

 

I have to look back and realize that maybe what she was actually experiencing was not love for me, but pride in herself and pride in us being the perfect couple.

 

It sounds like your husband bases a lot of his emotional wellbeing on his work. You said he's over sensitive and thinks anything people are saying about it is bad, and flips out.

 

When I met my ex, every relationship she had been in had been a disaster, ending with some kind of abuse. I think at that stage in her life, being able to find one that didn't just work, but where we were a perfect couple gave her something she could use to feel real happy about herself.

 

A lot of the happiness did have an element of pride to it. But I figured, why not, she's finally in a relationship that's working great, she should feel proud. I probably encouraged it.

 

There may simply be no external way for me to tell the difference between her loving me and her feeling pride in herself and pride in us as the perfect couple.

 

Finally, I decided that it doesn't matter. Either way we made each other happy during that time.

 

......

 

When we had our daughter, my ex added a "perfect mom" narrative.

 

She was working from home. As our daughter slept less and became more mobile, I started having to take care of our daughter more and more while she worked.

 

So, she's a "perfect mom" and we're a "perfect couple".

 

Yet, every day she has to watch me pay attention to our daughter instead of paying attention to her. Every day she has to watch me take care of our daughter instead of her taking care of our daughter.

 

Result: Constant anger and hostility. Narcissistic Rage.

 

You say your husband is selfish and has the emotions of a 6 year old. Imagine how he would act if, on EVERYTHING important to him, he didn't "get his way", but had to sit there and watch the opposite of it for a year.

 

Understanding that part was clear cut. Going back and realizing the implications for the good period, had me feeling like the two quotes from you at the top.

 

 

My husband handles life as a partner as a 6 year old...meaning he is incapable of it, disinterested. BUT when it comes to focusing on himself and making sure that he has everything he needs, to conjure up an image of someone with an envious career and lifestyle...he excels at that. That was just one of my issues with him. He always did things that were enough for HIM. He never did this that were enough for US. He expected me to find my own way and I did. But also as a partner, I should be able to depend on you the way you depended on me (financially, emotionally etc.).

 

My shrink (met him and diagnosed him) said that he probably feels quite sad for how he's handled the situation and for ruining us, but just isn't mentally mature enough to act the way a 34 year old man would act in this situation.

 

A mature man wouldn't just walk out. A man who wasn't selfish and only cared about himself wouldn't just walk out. He would work on himself, admit to his faults and we would work together at building a better relationship. A boy runs away. I just have to remember that. Just because he left our home doesn't mean that his issues left his mind. They will be there to haunt him until he finally admits to himself that he has a problem. I'm not around anymore to be the scapegoat for his issues.

[MellyMel]

Mine is really crazy. My friends stopped in for a coffee (man and wife) and spouse asked the man for his mobile number while I was out of the room in the kitchen. I find this out the next day when the wife texts me at work to thank me for the coffee and mentions it. I've been friends with these people for years and my spouse doesn't even like them much, has nothing in common with them, and has never shown an interest in communicating. WTF is that all about?!?

 

Then today kissed me on the cheek on the way out the door.

 

It sounds very much like your spouse asking you on dates and things. I honestly don't get it.

 

I'm sorry you are sad right now. This isn't meant to sound bad but I am actually jealous of you right now. Your spouse moved out. Mine will never move out. I will have to do it. You also have your family around. How are you feeling today? I'm sending thoughts across the miles that you are ok.

 

Thank you. I understand what you mean. I wish I moved out earlier. For 3 long years I knew that something was wrong. I knew that this didn't feel right but I held on to an idealized version of my marriage. You know that yours isn't right. You know that your marriage isn't what you want. Please do yourself a favour and muster up the courage do something about it. You shouldn't be this unhappy. I can speak from experience. Mine left and although I feel sad, I feel so relieved. I don't miss him. I miss our routine but I don't miss the raging lunatic.

[testmeasure]

You know something...the more I think about his dysfunctional childhood, the more I realize that his mother is also a narcissist. A BIG ONE. His parents divorced when he was very young. His father remarried and moved to a different country, focused on his new family. My husband would visit him every summer. His mother dated quite a bit and eventually remarried when he was in his teens. My husband took on the role of the man in the house (at the age of 8), was getting up to make breakfast for his mom, cleaning, taking care of himself. She wasn't a mother. She focused on herself, going out, etc. When she finally remarried, she encouraged my husband to find a place of his own (at the age of 17). I, now, know that it wasn't because she wanted him to be independent. She encouraged the move because it was EASIER for her. He was in the way of her new life. She's a nice lady, but also isn't aware ( or maybe doesn't want to admit) that her son is damaged because of her lack of mothering.

That would make sense of a lot of stuff. I picked up on the possible unresolved issues regarding his parents divorce. I don't know if I commented, but I at least did wonder whether the divorce could have been caused by Narcissism or Borderline behavior, in which case it would be all the more likely to pass on to him. That makes a lot of stuff make sense.

 

The role reversal may be deeper than what you expect and understand.

 

In any space and time where his mom wasn't being validated by a man, she probably needed validation from him.

 

Now, that's twisted, I can say it but you and I will probably never 100% wrap our mind around it. The normal parent child role is the parent gives the child unconditional love. When the parent requires unconditional validation from the child, that's like the opposite.

 

I can say the words and know what they mean. But the full depth, consequences and damage are hard to fathom.

Many kids with dysfunctional childhoods grow up to be normal, well adjusted adults

 

Let me cut you mid sentence, agree up to this point, and then surprise you. I agree, many people with extreme childhood trauma seem to be able to lead what they call "high functioning" adult lives.

 

and partners.

 

...and that's where it falls apart. The people with significant childhood trauma seem to be capable of having exceptional honeymoon periods ranging from a few months up to many years. But inevitably this falls apart.

 

My husband isn't one of those people. He still hasn't admitted to himself that he has issues, let alone apologized to me for treating me like **** and making me the scapegoat for all his issues.

 

People can be more or less Narcissistic and we can talk about it here as a tendency with certain characteristics. It's easy to throw around words when they just mean he feels superior and he gets angry if he doesn't get his way. Here in an internet forum, we're kind of just chatting on that level.

 

If you go to the books and start to read about true Narcissistic Personality Disorder or NPD as a full blown mental illness, you will quickly learn that it's almost impossible to test for, it's almost impossible to diagnose, the people with it will probably never seek treatment, and even if they did, there pretty much is no treatment.

 

So "He still hasn't admitted to himself that he has issues, let alone apologized to me for treating me like **** and making me the scapegoat for all his issues."? Real books on this would say that's not going to happen ever.

 

I almost think that the only reason Narcissism exists as a concept is because of the people who have had to live with it in their own relationships or families. It's so real to us, we can vocalize it in a way that outsiders realize something must have happened. But at the same time outside tests, observers, and therapists attempting to diagnose it can't even see it.

 

There's a saying in philosophy to describe things that require totally divergent frames of reference.

 

For those who understand, no explanation is necessary, for those who do not, no explanation is possible.

 

Having lived with a narcissist feels like that A LOT.

 

I think people who lived with a Borderline have had an equally divergent experience with some overlaps with Narcissism. Where their world overlaps ours, we can understand each other.

 

I recommended to DevastatedDiva to go check out the site BPDFamily. It deals with both Borderline and Narcissistic relationships. There might be some stuff there you could identify with.

 

 

.

[testmeasure]

My husband handles life as a partner as a 6 year old...meaning he is incapable of it, disinterested. BUT when it comes to focusing on himself and making sure that he has everything he needs, to conjure up an image of someone with an envious career and lifestyle...he excels at that. That was just one of my issues with him. He always did things that were enough for HIM. He never did this that were enough for US. He expected me to find my own way and I did. But also as a partner, I should be able to depend on you the way you depended on me (financially, emotionally etc.).

 

The difficult part is going to be making this real to yourself: "he has everything he needs, to conjure up an image of someone with an envious career and lifestyle...he excels at that"

 

His false image is what allows him to feel good about himself. It's what allows him to get through the day. If you've got wild out of control 6 year old emotions, this constant bed time story is the only thing that keeps himself in a safe place where he can feel good about himself.

 

This is all that matters: "he has everything he needs, to conjure up an image of someone with an envious career and lifestyle...he excels at that"

 

Not you, not anything. His attitude toward anything other than that bedtime story to make him feel good is irrelevant, cold, distant, and detached.

 

My shrink (met him and diagnosed him) said that he probably feels quite sad for how he's handled the situation and for ruining us, but just isn't mentally mature enough to act the way a 34 year old man would act in this situation.

 

He doesn't care.

 

"he has everything he needs, to conjure up an image of someone with an envious career and lifestyle...he excels at that"

 

He does need validation. They can cook up the bedtime story, but they need someone else to read it to them and believe it. He needs someone to help him believe the thing that makes him feel good about himself is actually true.

 

If you stopped being that person, he is not sad. He's angry in a 6 year old temper tantrum way. Mommy won't read me the bed time story that makes me feel safe.

 

It sounds like a joke. It's not.

 

A mature man wouldn't just walk out. A man who wasn't selfish and only cared about himself wouldn't just walk out.

 

"he has everything he needs, to conjure up an image of someone with an envious career and lifestyle...he excels at that"

 

If you're not going to worship and admire him for that, he has no use for you.

 

 

He would work on himself, admit to his faults and we would work together at building a better relationship.

 

You don't get it. "he has everything he needs, to conjure up an image of someone with an envious career and lifestyle...he excels at that"

 

 

A boy runs away. I just have to remember that. Just because he left our home doesn't mean that his issues left his mind. They will be there to haunt him until he finally admits to himself that he has a problem.

 

You don't get it. Nothings going to haunt him. He's never going to admit anything. "he has everything he needs, to conjure up an image of someone with an envious career and lifestyle...he excels at that"

 

That's what he takes refuge in, all he needs is someone to validate it. If you won't, he'll find someone who will. It's cold. It's not how we think.

 

 

I'm not around anymore to be the scapegoat for his issues.

 

I actually said that to her at some point. "Well, at least you can't blame me for your unhappiness now." This reaction doesn't completely miss the point but it's not on point either.

 

The blaming thing is only invoked when:

 

"he has everything he needs, to conjure up an image of someone with an envious career and lifestyle...he excels at that"

 

Either breaks down or doesn't get enough validation.

 

But ultimately blaming you was a diversion. If he can't do that, he will just shift to either fixing the thing he tells himself to feel good about himself, or finding someone else to validate it, depending on which of those was the problem.

 

The hardest part is realizing he doesn't care a shred about you because "he has everything he needs, to conjure up an image of someone with an envious career and lifestyle...he excels at that"

 

I'm sorry if this sounds harsh, but if you're actually dealing with narcissism, this is what you're dealing with. It is hard for a normal person to understand at first.

 

Once you know the narcissist's narrative, you know what explains and defines everything they do, because it's the only thing they really care about. It's the only thing that makes it possible for them to get through each day with 6 year old emotions. It's their bed time story that makes the feel safe and happy about themselves.

 

Edit: I don't mean to poke fun at you by quoting the one line over and over. A narcissist narrative is a critical thing to identify and this one line is the closest you've gotten so far. I've described my ex's narrative as at first we were the "perfect couple" and then later she was the "perfect mom". I use "perfect couple" and "perfect mom" in quotes over and over again in my own posts about myself. In your case I was re-using your own words, but could equally have said he had the "perfect career and lifestyle" over and over again. But, I just re-quoted your exact words, since that was how you put it. The more simple, somewhat true, easy to believe, and easy to get validation, attention and admiration for, the more useable these stories they tell themselves are to feel good about themselves. In the end it's hard to realize that this is all that's important to them.

 

If the person really is a narcissist, they may be sitting there alone and afraid. But they aren't thinking about that the way you would. They are trying to figure out how to get mommy to read them the story again or how to find another mommy that will. That's really all they care about. The story and the validation of that story. If the person is a narcissist, you mean nothing to them.

 

.

Edited January 31, 2016 by testmeasure

[MellyMel]

That would make sense of a lot of stuff. I picked up on the possible unresolved issues regarding his parents divorce. I don't know if I commented, but I at least did wonder whether the divorce could have been caused by Narcissism or Borderline behavior, in which case it would be all the more likely to pass on to him. That makes a lot of stuff make sense.

 

The role reversal may be deeper than what you expect and understand.

 

In any space and time where his mom wasn't being validated by a man, she probably needed validation from him.

 

Now, that's twisted, I can say it but you and I will probably never 100% wrap our mind around it. The normal parent child role is the parent gives the child unconditional love. When the parent requires unconditional validation from the child, that's like the opposite.

 

I can say the words and know what they mean. But the full depth, consequences and damage are hard to fathom.

 

 

Let me cut you mid sentence, agree up to this point, and then surprise you. I agree, many people with extreme childhood trauma seem to be able to lead what they call "high functioning" adult lives.

 

 

 

...and that's where it falls apart. The people with significant childhood trauma seem to be capable of having exceptional honeymoon periods ranging from a few months up to many years. But inevitably this falls apart.

 

 

 

People can be more or less Narcissistic and we can talk about it here as a tendency with certain characteristics. It's easy to throw around words when they just mean he feels superior and he gets angry if he doesn't get his way. Here in an internet forum, we're kind of just chatting on that level.

 

If you go to the books and start to read about true Narcissistic Personality Disorder or NPD as a full blown mental illness, you will quickly learn that it's almost impossible to test for, it's almost impossible to diagnose, the people with it will probably never seek treatment, and even if they did, there pretty much is no treatment.

 

So "He still hasn't admitted to himself that he has issues, let alone apologized to me for treating me like **** and making me the scapegoat for all his issues."? Real books on this would say that's not going to happen ever.

 

I almost think that the only reason Narcissism exists as a concept is because of the people who have had to live with it in their own relationships or families. It's so real to us, we can vocalize it in a way that outsiders realize something must have happened. But at the same time outside tests, observers, and therapists attempting to diagnose it can't even see it.

 

There's a saying in philosophy to describe things that require totally divergent frames of reference.

 

For those who understand, no explanation is necessary, for those who do not, no explanation is possible.

 

Having lived with a narcissist feels like that A LOT.

 

I think people who lived with a Borderline have had an equally divergent experience with some overlaps with Narcissism. Where their world overlaps ours, we can understand each other.

 

I recommended to DevastatedDiva to go check out the site BPDFamily. It deals with both Borderline and Narcissistic relationships. There might be some stuff there you could identify with.

 

 

.

 

His mother doesn't even have the audacity to call me. She has sent two text messages...TEXT messages expressing how sorry she is. I just replied and said that I wasn't going to get into this over iMessage.

 

That's one of the hardest things to deal with at the moment. Admitting to myself that I'll never get the closer that I want and deserve. I'll never get an apology because he thinks like a child. He functions like a child. I'm sure when he meets his next victim and she becomes his emotional supply, I'll be known as the crazy, controlling ex. Little things like that bother me because he knows that it's true. I'm hoping that with time, they'll become insignificant like he will.

 

 

Thank you! I will check out BDP Family.