Feminism in dating (Updated)

[Shining One]

Yeah, except for one major caveat: were you born 60 years, that option wouldn't even be offered to you because the majority of women wouldn't even be in a position where they could afford to reciprocate.

 

That's the irony - the men who expect reciprocation from day 1 in the 'early stages' of dating should be thankful to feminism for allowing them that choice...

I am thankful for feminism for allowing women to generate their own incomes. Please quote any of my posts in which I indicated otherwise.

[Robert Z]

Women started gaining real equality in the 1970s. That was almost 50 years ago. When are we going to be done with the victim crap?

[jay1983]

Women started gaining real equality in the 1970s. That was almost 50 years ago. When are we going to be done with the victim crap?

 

When the 10% of Caucasian of males which are tall, handsome, well educated and experienced stop occupying CEO roles. lol

[Robert Z]

When the 10% of Caucasian of males which are tall, handsome, well educated and experienced stop occupying CEO roles. lol

 

 

Why do you think this is due to some kind of inequality? I see nothing holding women back. Perhaps a lot more men work harder than most women to gain leadership roles.

 

Women have 51% of the vote and have since the suffrage movement. Why is any of this due to men?

 

 

Women have assumed leadership roles in the business world as well as politics. We may well have a female President soon. There is no glass ceiling.

Edited December 12, 2015 by Robert Z

[PrettyEmily77]

I am thankful for feminism for allowing women to generate their own incomes. Please quote any of my posts in which I indicated otherwise.

 

I have re-read your posts and can't actually find one . Looking back, aside from the slightly business-like approach to dating (an American thing, no doubt ), you seem like quite a sensible guy.

 

Apologies.

[Robert Z]

Is there inequality in basketball? 73% of NBA players are black. You don't suppose that's because blacks tend to excel in basketball, do you? Or is this because the NBA is prejudiced against white men?

[jay1983]

Why do you think this is due to some kind of inequality? I see nothing holding women back. Perhaps a lot more men work harder than most women to gain leadership roles.

 

Women have 51% of the vote and have since the suffrage movement. Why is any of this due to men?

 

It was a joke Robert. These men are appointed these roles because that's who people want in charge. It's very similar to dating, these same men are highly desired and sought after by professional women. They want that tall, handsome, successful man to take charge.

 

And They focus so much on that small % of men while ignoring the fact that they have it better everyone else.

[trippi1432]

Women started gaining real equality in the 1970s. That was almost 50 years ago. When are we going to be done with the victim crap?

 

Not so much "victim" role, I enjoy being able to take care of myself financially and have also learned (in dating lately) that women can intimidate a man if she offers to pay early in the dating game. It really depends on the man and his sense of core values.

 

However, that being said, our own government views the role of a woman in retirement to earning less than men. Social Security Benefits: The Striking Gap Between Women and Men -- The Motley Fool

 

There is a large gap for today's retiring workforce, married, making the value of a woman's 35 years of work history nearly valueless. Granted, my parent's are in this situation where they would be better off divorced and living together to get equal benefits.

 

I can also state, for the record, I would never date a man who thinks he is "entitled" to anything other than what another member stated, a mutual investment. But that IS the feminist in me.

[Robert Z]

It was a joke Robert. These men are appointed these roles because that's who people want in charge. It's very similar to dating, these same men are highly desired and sought after by professional women. They want that tall, handsome, successful man to take charge.

 

And They focus so much on that small % of men while ignoring the fact that they have it better everyone else.

 

 

Okay, that goes to my point. But I wouldn't call Steve Jobs or Bill Gates tall and handsome... just to name a couple. They earned their success. And Zuckerberg looks to me like the red-headed step child that everyone wants to slap. I think success has a lot more to do with hard work, inspiration, and brilliance, than inequality or some plastic model.

[Shining One]

I have re-read your posts and can't actually find one . Looking back, aside from the slightly business-like approach to dating (an American thing, no doubt ), you seem like quite a sensible guy.

 

Apologies.

Thank you for this.

 

As for the business-like approach, I'm pretty sure that's a "me" thing as opposed to an American thing. For the first decade or so of dating, I didn't watch my spending at all. Several years ago, I decided to buy my mom a Lexus for a significant birthday. When I analyzed my spending history to figure out how to fit the car into my budget, I realized just how much money I was "throwing away" on dates that went nowhere. Ever since that point, I've been more disciplined when it comes to dating. I imagine people with better track records (less dates that go nowhere) wouldn't develop this mindset.

[Imajerk17]

These societal trends in dating threads are interesting, they always make for a lively debate. Thing is though, you don't have to put up with what you don't want to with dating.

 

Getting back to the specific topic, despite what some people feel feminism is or isn't, there are PLENTY of kind, giving, women out there who really don't want your money. We should be screening for these women. Furthermore, our first few dates should be inexpensive anyway. Use some creativity and planning, but plan it so that you're keeping the costs low. Spending money in the hopes of winning over a woman you don't even know is interested is a chump play and it doesn't even work.

 

So what I am getting at is, putting so much time into how feminism has ruined dating is really a waste of energy.

Edited December 12, 2015 by Imajerk17

[jay1983]

These societal trends in dating threads are interesting, they always make for a lively debate. Thing is though, you don't have to put up with what you don't want to with dating.

 

Getting back to the specific topic, we as guys really is not, there are PLENTY of kind, giving, women out there who really don't want your money. Furthermore, our first few dates should be inexpensive anyway. Use some creativity and planning, but plan it so that you're keeping the costs low. Spending money in the hopes of winning over a woman you don't even know is interested is a chump play and it doesn't even work.

 

 

So what I am getting at is, putting so much time into how feminism has ruined dating is really a waste of energy.

You do if want to date. Lol

[Rejected Rosebud]

Women started gaining real equality in the 1970s. That was almost 50 years ago. When are we going to be done with the victim crap?

You think feminism is about being a victim?? :confused: Also, just because your mom raised you badly doesn't mean that ALL moms are raising ALL boys badly, I am lucky enough to be surrounded by great men who also have great mothers ... I thank my guy's mom from the bottom of my heart for raising such a man! His dad deserves credit as well!

[sambolini]

You think feminism is about being a victim??

 

This is the message we are given.

 

1) Rape culture

2) Wage gap

3) Patriarchy

 

Every major feminist issue (from an aggregate feminist movement standpoint) paints women as victims of men in some way. Victims of rape, victims of wage inequality, victims of toxic masculinity.

 

So, yes. My perception of feminism is that it is about being a victim.

 

That may not apply to you individually, but that perception certainly applies to the message we are being given by the aggregate feminist movement.

[edgygirl]

Look, would you agree that romantic relationships are about personal preference, as well as your background and traumas? And that each of us has their own set of the above built in?

 

For me, mainly because of the men in my family, I can't respect / be interested in a guy who doesn't have his s*** together financially.

 

Therefore, a man showing he can afford to care for a woman / a family, makes me feel psychologically comfortable. A guy who counts pennies doesn't and makes me anxious.

 

Also if you think about it - Biologically, women are the only ones who carry babies, right? What if she can't work for a while due to whatever circumstance? Does she want to be with a man who can't afford taking care of her? Sorry, but you know the answer. The answer is no. So, equality or not, feminism or not, we are still the only ones who can carry babies.

 

Yes it implies having their act together and have a way to provide. I want a partner who can provide should something happen. I am not sure why this is that absurd. I am fine with a man wanting the same in a woman. It goes both ways. In all honesty, I prefer to be single than with a bum. I've seen people in my family where the guy didn't have their act together, and I don't wish to follow that route and be the sole provider.

 

Answering what I give back - people have different "Love Languages". Although I appreciate generosity in general, I don't care about receiving or giving material gifts ie. I do like the love languages called words of affirmation, quality time together and acts of service.

 

I have some questions about this, especially the first one.

 

• How does someone spending money on you generate a sense of protection? Various people have spent money on me over the years and I never felt "protected" as a result.
  
• Will any sign of generosity be sufficient, or does the generosity have to be directed at you? Examples: A man who gives money to charity or spends lavishly on family.
  
• What gestures do you give to men on early dates to show you care for him?
  

 

For me it's not about him paying per se, but the act of being able to pay demonstrates he has his act together (extremely important for me), and that he's not a cheapo (extremely annoying to me, both with lovers or friends or anyone really). Of course paying is not the only generosity demonstration I look for... I do look for all the things mentioned below.

 

But basically the men I dated who could not pay were in their late 20s / early 30s. They were clearly not ready to have a family or be coupled and have a grown up life. I prefer to be single than to be struggling with someone who is not ready for the real deal. Personal preference.

 

Great questions! I have never felt a guy paying for me generated a sense of protection at all. Unless I know the guy, it is little more than the gesture the waiter makes when he offers to put ground pepper on your all-you-can-eat salad at Olive Garden.

 

 

Leaves the impression of 'service' on an otherwise strictly cafeteria experience. Nothing special.

 

 

You know what generates a feeling of protection and care?? A guy who does what he says he will do. A guy who has a history, and demonstrates his care for current people in his life. I have eyes. I can witness how he treats the people who he claims are special. Even if he pays for THEM... if that is all he does for them, then I'm not impressed. Anyone can write a check... and anyone does.

[edgygirl]

Amen

In my own first LTR, I made 2ce more than he did so it wasn't even discussed when I moved in with him, I very often paid the rent, paid bills, bought furniture etc I still happily did the housework while he did the lawn and oil work. However, from the very first date, he paid for all the dates, it was never even a topic of discussion and this was before we were in a serious relationship. He continued to pay for dates till it ended. So, who contributed more to the relationship? Me of course, but I wasn't counting.

 

The fact that I want my man to pay on dates has nothing to do with feminism. The roles we chose to play in our relationships have nothing to do with feminism. Feminism and equality gives the woman the right to choose how she wants to live her own life just like a man does. Feminism allowed me to contribute meaningfully to my relationship and to society.

 

Please check what feminism actually is instead of what you think it probably is. Paying in dates and doing dishes have nothing to do with feminism.

[Shining One]

Look, would you agree that romantic relationships are about personal preference, as well as your background and traumas? And that each of us has their own set of the above built in?

 

For me, mainly because of the men in my family, I can't respect / be interested in a guy who doesn't have his s*** together financially.

 

Therefore, a man showing he can afford to care for a woman / a family, makes me feel psychologically comfortable. A guy who counts pennies doesn't and makes me anxious.

I can understand wanting someone financially stable. I just don't necessarily see the correlation between paying for dates and financial stability. I spent more per date on early dates ten years ago than I do now, but I had very little in the way of savings. Now, I spend less, but I have significant savings. There was another recent thread in which a poster indicated her husband piled up significant debt paying for dates with her and they spent the first few years of their marriage paying it off. I would not consider that a demonstration of financial stability. Here's the quote:

When my husband was my boyfriend he took me out to REALLY expensive places and bought me lots of gifts. He always whipped out the credit card and never flinched.

 

We got married and and after a couple of months he asked if I would mind taking over the financial paper work, filing, making sure bills are paid on time, insurance stuff. I said sure. Apparently, we had lots of credit card debt on high interest cards that was out of control. I asked him how this happened. He said I was an expensive date. It took about five years to pay that crap off.

 

True story.

Answering what I give back - people have different "Love Languages". Although I appreciate generosity in general, I don't care about receiving or giving material gifts ie. I do like the love languages called words of affirmation, quality time together and acts of service.

This doesn't really answer the question. If a guy takes you out on a couple dates and pays for both, what do you do for him?

But basically the men I dated who could not pay were in their late 20s / early 30s. They were clearly not ready to have a family or be coupled and have a grown up life. I prefer to be single than to be struggling with someone who is not ready for the real deal. Personal preference.

There's a difference between being unable to pay and choosing not to pay.

 

You're right, everyone is entitled to their personal preferences. I'm just trying to understand the thought process and logic behind it. Financial stability is important to me in the women I date. In fact, it's a requirement for marriage to be on the table. However, I don't consider her paying for dates as a sign of financial stability.

[thefooloftheyear]

IME, men and women look at money and expenditures quite differently...

 

Again. IME. most of the men I know who earn more(most way more) than their female counterparts are quite generous and don't play the "this is my money because I earned it" type of game..Of the one's I know where the woman earns more, its more like "her" money and not necessarily community money...

 

The guys I know in these situations resort to child like status having to justify every penny and explain every detail..Rather than allow free access to the couple's money, they carefully watch everything and have a detailed accounting of any of "her" money that the guy gets his hands on...

 

There are still countless guys out there in happy relationships/marriages that buy their wives new cars every couple of years, pay most all their bills, and give them practically unlimited access to spending money Even with no or kids that are grown and self sufficient, the guys are content in whatever amount of money the woman brings to the table..I just dont see all that much judgement...

 

If you proposed that scenario to a typical woman, most likely wouldn't do it even if they had the means to...She'll shame the hell out of the guy and there would be massive contention in the relationship.......Ive seen it numerous times...One of my best friends recently divorced after 20 years for this issue...He is a great guy, very stable, honest, etc...But because she was the breadwinner and he only worked on and off(contractor), she never really had any respect for him...They didnt have any kids and they didn't really have any financial troubles...She hammered the hell out of him for spendiing money, even though I didn't see anything irresponsible or extravagant..

 

Most quality women expect the guy to earn...Even some that aren't considered top tier women expect it...Of the women I know that make more than their husbands, there is often ridicule and shame placed on the guy...

 

Maybe guys were/are just morons and pushovers for doing this all this time..Or maybe something in the male DNA makes them more generous and less judgmental...I dunno...Just seems like there really isn't true "equity" in this area...Feminism/equality or not..

 

TFY

Edited December 13, 2015 by thefooloftheyear

[PrettyEmily77]

Thank you for this.

 

As for the business-like approach, I'm pretty sure that's a "me" thing as opposed to an American thing. For the first decade or so of dating, I didn't watch my spending at all. Several years ago, I decided to buy my mom a Lexus for a significant birthday. When I analyzed my spending history to figure out how to fit the car into my budget, I realized just how much money I was "throwing away" on dates that went nowhere. Ever since that point, I've been more disciplined when it comes to dating. I imagine people with better track records (less dates that go nowhere) wouldn't develop this mindset.

 

I get it and, to be entirely honest, I kind of agree. Whatever happens in early dating is no indication of how the R is going to go. I never really dated extensively (strictly IRL, just by bumping intp guys I liked in my social circle or very, very occasionally random guys, initiated most Rs/dates I've been on and have no qualms in paying the bill) so the financial side of things hasn't really affected me or the guys I've been with.

 

My BF has more of a traditional view on this (also not a seasoned dater at all) and just won't let me pay when we go out. I now know he doesn't want to control me and it's his way of showing me he cares and wants to look after me. I have learnt not to make an issue out of it - it's his thing - and our R is pretty well balanced in every other way.

Edited December 13, 2015 by PrettyEmily77

[PrettyEmily77]

IME, men and women look at money and expenditures quite differently...

 

Again. IME. most of the men I know who earn more(most way more) than their female counterparts are quite generous and don't play the "this is my money because I earned it" type of game..Of the one's I know where the woman earns more, its more like "her" money and not necessarily community money...

 

The guys I know in these situations resort to child like status having to justify every penny and explain every detail..Rather than allow free access to the couple's money, they carefully watch everything and have a detailed accounting of any of "her" money that the guy gets his hands on...

 

There are still countless guys out there in happy relationships/marriages that buy their wives new cars every couple of years, pay most all their bills, and give them practically unlimited access to spending money Even with no or kids that are grown and self sufficient, the guys are content in whatever amount of money the woman brings to the table..I just dont see all that much judgement...

 

If you proposed that scenario to a typical woman, most likely wouldn't do it even if they had the means to...She'll shame the hell out of the guy and there would be massive contention in the relationship.......Ive seen it numerous times...One of my best friends recently divorced after 20 years for this issue...He is a great guy, very stable, honest, etc...But because she was the breadwinner and he only worked on and off(contractor), she never really had any respect for him...They didnt have any kids and they didn't really have any financial troubles...She hammered the hell out of him for spendiing money, even though I didn't see anything irresponsible or extravagant..

 

Most quality women expect the guy to earn...Even some that aren't considered top tier women expect it...Of the women I know that make more than their husbands, there is often ridicule and shame placed on the guy...

 

Maybe guys were/are just morons and pushovers for doing this all this time..Or maybe something in the male DNA makes them more generous and less judgmental...I dunno...Just seems like there really isn't true "equity" in this area...Feminism/equality or not..

 

TFY

 

There is only equality if those husbands you talk about take the bulk of the responsibilities in terms of childcare and house chores and everything else lower earning women are expected to do.

 

Where I live (big cosmopolitan city), SAHDs are a fairly common phenomenon. I know of 2 in my close social circle - never noticed any difference with them in terms of respect or money issues.

[Wewon]

IME, men and women look at money and expenditures quite differently...

 

Again. IME. most of the men I know who earn more(most way more) than their female counterparts are quite generous and don't play the "this is my money because I earned it" type of game..Of the one's I know where the woman earns more, its more like "her" money and not necessarily community money...

 

The guys I know in these situations resort to child like status having to justify every penny and explain every detail..Rather than allow free access to the couple's money, they carefully watch everything and have a detailed accounting of any of "her" money that the guy gets his hands on...

 

There are still countless guys out there in happy relationships/marriages that buy their wives new cars every couple of years, pay most all their bills, and give them practically unlimited access to spending money Even with no or kids that are grown and self sufficient, the guys are content in whatever amount of money the woman brings to the table..I just dont see all that much judgement...

 

If you proposed that scenario to a typical woman, most likely wouldn't do it even if they had the means to...She'll shame the hell out of the guy and there would be massive contention in the relationship.......Ive seen it numerous times...One of my best friends recently divorced after 20 years for this issue...He is a great guy, very stable, honest, etc...But because she was the breadwinner and he only worked on and off(contractor), she never really had any respect for him...They didnt have any kids and they didn't really have any financial troubles...She hammered the hell out of him for spendiing money, even though I didn't see anything irresponsible or extravagant..

 

Most quality women expect the guy to earn...Even some that aren't considered top tier women expect it...Of the women I know that make more than their husbands, there is often ridicule and shame placed on the guy...

 

Maybe guys were/are just morons and pushovers for doing this all this time..Or maybe something in the male DNA makes them more generous and less judgmental...I dunno...Just seems like there really isn't true "equity" in this area...Feminism/equality or not..

 

TFY

 

 

This has been my observation as well.

 

A woman once said something to me and it really falls in line with this:

 

"When a woman looks at a man as a mate she is considering his ability to be a provider for her and potential children. When a man looks at a woman he just wants to make sure that she isn't going to f--k his s--t up."

 

Men don't really look for a provider and aren't disappointed with a woman that isn't one. She could be the cashier at Wendy's, he just wants to know that she's a good steward of the money she has.

[Haydn]

There is only equality if those husbands you talk about take the bulk of the responsibilities in terms of childcare and house chores and everything else lower earning women are expected to do.

 

Where I live (big cosmopolitan city), SAHDs are a fairly common phenomenon. I know of 2 in my close social circle - never noticed any difference with them in terms of respect or money issues.

 

We are everywhere. Did it for a long time and would do it again.

 

Lost no respect (Not from the people that mattered)

 

I do all the housework....(My GF is truly grateful but still finds me sexy, especially when i use the `feather duster` for those hard to reach places)

[RedRobin]

I will make this clear for you. Women have these preferences in men because they can, bottom line. When you have 5 guys interested in you, and 3 of them are willing to treat you like a princess, open doors for you, pay for everything all the time, ect, those are the guys you are going to prefer. As a man, if we had 5 different women knocking on our doors, and most of them were trying to give us an amazing blow job, cook us dinner, and tell us how awesome we are, we would only date those women.

 

Feminism these days tells women how bad men are, how we make more money than they do (despite statistics that prove otherwise), how we have this (made up) patriarchy in order to keep them down (despite the fact that more women are getting educated than men these days), and we are perpetuating some sort of rape culture where all men are just potential rapists. Not only that, but thanks to modern feminism, women don't need to fulfill the traditional female gender roles, nor do they even have to take care of themselves, because if anyone has anything even slightly negative to say about a big girl's body, they are body shaming. All the while, none of those women are lining up to date guys who are out of shape. None of those women are lining up to date guys who don't fulfill our traditional gender roles. And if any men don't like the way things are, they can just stop dating.

 

That, in a nutshell, is modern feminism and how it relates to dating and relationships today.

 

Lots of men see what they choose to see. Not all women have those preferences, but those guys keep lining up to date princesses. Same way that I don't understand it when non promiscuous women date promiscuous men... For example.

 

It is so counter to what both parties generally SAY they want, but they are too chicken to do anything about it... Too afraid of being alone if they don't go along with it.

 

What some women complain about are the guys who want a woman who splits 50/50 financially, yet still wants her to do all the traditional stuff too.... But I say it is her fault if she goes along with doing all the traditional stuff. If she is pulling her own weight, so should he. And vice versa.

 

Dating is supposed to be about finding a compatible partner but way too many people just date for sport these days.

 

What I tell both genders is stop complaining and just stop complying if it bothers them so much.

[RedRobin]

IME, men and women look at money and expenditures quite differently...

 

Again. IME. most of the men I know who earn more(most way more) than their female counterparts are quite generous and don't play the "this is my money because I earned it" type of game..Of the one's I know where the woman earns more, its more like "her" money and not necessarily community money...

 

The guys I know in these situations resort to child like status having to justify every penny and explain every detail..Rather than allow free access to the couple's money, they carefully watch everything and have a detailed accounting of any of "her" money that the guy gets his hands on...

 

There are still countless guys out there in happy relationships/marriages that buy their wives new cars every couple of years, pay most all their bills, and give them practically unlimited access to spending money Even with no or kids that are grown and self sufficient, the guys are content in whatever amount of money the woman brings to the table..I just dont see all that much judgement...

 

If you proposed that scenario to a typical woman, most likely wouldn't do it even if they had the means to...She'll shame the hell out of the guy and there would be massive contention in the relationship.......Ive seen it numerous times...One of my best friends recently divorced after 20 years for this issue...He is a great guy, very stable, honest, etc...But because she was the breadwinner and he only worked on and off(contractor), she never really had any respect for him...They didnt have any kids and they didn't really have any financial troubles...She hammered the hell out of him for spendiing money, even though I didn't see anything irresponsible or extravagant..

 

Most quality women expect the guy to earn...Even some that aren't considered top tier women expect it...Of the women I know that make more than their husbands, there is often ridicule and shame placed on the guy...

 

Maybe guys were/are just morons and pushovers for doing this all this time..Or maybe something in the male DNA makes them more generous and less judgmental...I dunno...Just seems like there really isn't true "equity" in this area...Feminism/equality or not..

 

TFY

 

That wasn't me.

 

I have almost always made more than my partners. Not really trying. That's just how it worked out. They were never shamed for making less. They didn't shame themselves either. All of what we made went into the same pot and we decided together how it would be spent. I believe that it is important that people generally share the same financial outlook, ie spenders vs savers.

 

All of my partners have been somewhat frugal like me. We never fought about money.

 

I have never fought with a man over housework either. What I have fought over is career choices. If I make more, then my career needs to be a priority. If he has demonstrated that he is not all that ambitious, but still gets by... And I need something more challenging, and he is getting the financial benefit from it... Then yea... My job doesn't take a back seat to his. We at least should take turns.

 

Maybe part of the reason I haven't dated uber rich guys willing to lavish me with gifts is because I know the payback is that I am the follower, and I don't want that. To use a sailing analogy... I like being the captain of my own ship. I would love to find a man who is also a 'captain', who will let me take the helm sometimes... And vice versa... But I am not the first mate... And definitely not one of the deck hands.

 

Edited: and while it is definitely true that not all men are rapists... Not by a long shot... 96% of rapists are men... And that includes violence against other men. Not just women. It's in men's best interest to be against rape. Even when they aren't the primary targets.

http://www.nsvrc.org/sites/default/files/publications_nsvrc_factsheet_media-packet_statistics-about-sexual-violence_0.pdf

Edited December 13, 2015 by RedRobin

[thefooloftheyear]

There is only equality if those husbands you talk about take the bulk of the responsibilities in terms of childcare and house chores and everything else lower earning women are expected to do.

 

Where I live (big cosmopolitan city), SAHDs are a fairly common phenomenon. I know of 2 in my close social circle - never noticed any difference with them in terms of respect or money issues.

 

No argument....

 

I think its a cultural thing, too..

 

I can state pretty authoritatively that the majority of Italian or Jewish women wont feel good about their man if they aren't strong earners, successful in their craft, and solid providers..

 

And believe me, I mean no disrespect to SAHD's....Its great for them...I just think that arrangement doesn't sit too well with many women...They may do it out of necessity. but they don't particularly like it..

 

TFY