cant get out

[fellini]

I enjoy a lot of things. Doesn't mean I "love" them..

 

I wrote a list of phrases Katie.

 

I don't consider being "indifferent to the AP" a statement of love either.

 

Ill say it again, in plain english:

 

Rather than using a junkie metaphor because you were NEVER a junkie, what plain, simple, honest statement would you make about your emotional connection to your AP?

 

What statement best describes why you were having sexual relations with someone outside your marriage?

 

Did you hate him? or did you love him? (regardless of which definitions you hold for love)

[fellini]

You can stay busy and occupy your mind thinking of how to be the husband your wife thinks you are.

 

Spend energy connecting with your wife! If you make the effort with your wife that you made with your other woman you may feel closer to your wife/more connected.

 

When was the last time you took your wife out to lunch? To dinner? For drinks? Sent her flowers? Bought her gifts?

 

Every time you think of the OW - do something nice for your wife!

 

I doubt this will work. He has to feel connected to his wife to be connected.

Otherwise he will sit at a table in a restaurant enjoying a meal and thinking of nothing but his AP. All the while she will think they are reconnected, when in fact, they are not. I've been there. It heaps on more trauma on Dday when I think back about how my WW sat with me on our wedding anniversary dinner, and I never felt better. She neither, because she let him kiss her for the first time only 4 hours earlier.

[katielee]

He fulfilled a need - that was about it.

 

you maintain that there HAD to be some sort of love and any BS who doesn't think that is in denial or something. I disagree.

 

this:

"You know, being with someone, touching them, cuddlig them, making love to them, this is an aspect of love."

 

Using this logic then people love prostitutes.

[Mr. Lucky]

Because it is a love story. Not a good one, not one with a future, but if you think for a second that this guy did not feel in any way that he was in love you do not understand infidelity. This whole idea that "it is not love", is just a story people tell themselves outside of infidelity. For those involved, for however fleeting the moment, it is "love" and they are willing to loose EVERYTHING and EVERYONE to have it.

 

Any attempt to see it any other way is just BS delusion or over psycho analysis of what EVERYONE who comes in here SAYS they are FEELING.

 

Dime story hussy? Wow. If only it were that simple.

 

This isn't about how he felt, it's about how he feels now. And unless he recognizes both the OW and his feelings towards her as threat to his marriage, no chance of recovery.

 

His idea of "I'll stay connected to the OW to soothe my hurt" is just as fraudulent and destructive as "I'll sleep with the OW to validate my feelings about her". He's not swept along by circumstances, he's an adult making choices...

 

Mr. Lucky

[Ms. Faust]

if i summarize feedback here i got it would look like this

1. jimmy is a life destroyer

2. jimmy should tell her wife what he did

3. jimmy should not contact AP (in any way)

4. jimmy should read about infidelity

and last

5. jimmy should undergo a therapy

 

 

 

Well, to be fair you don't have a clue how much of an impact numbers #1, 3, 4, and 5 are because you refuse to do #2. You must have an idea, though, else you wouldn't be so adamant against the idea of telling your wife.

 

Honestly, I think the people here are nice in their advice, albeit some can be aggressive in the delivering. Go onto the Mens Divorce Forum and tell them you cheated on your wife. They'll rip you to shreds without a second thought.

Edited December 10, 2015 by Ms. Faust

[wmacbride]

This isn't about how he felt, it's about how he feels now. And unless he recognizes both the OW and his feelings towards her as threat to his marriage, no chance of recovery.

 

His idea of "I'll stay connected to the OW to soothe my hurt" is just as fraudulent and destructive as "I'll sleep with the OW to validate my feelings about her". He's not swept along by circumstances, he's an adult making choices...

 

Mr. Lucky

 

I agree.

 

It's like this. I can be running down the sidewalk, trip over a bump. That i an accident. If I get up, go back, and repeat the process over and over, getting more bruised each time, it ceases to be an accident. It is a choice.

 

I could choose to get up and keep going, but instead, i choose to keep going back, then complain that I have been hurt.

[wmacbride]

[quote=fellini;6682043

. Surely we have moved beyond the modernist idea of a singular identity in people. A unique whole oneness. People are multifaceted and have various personalities that are fluid and changing according to the social situation they find themselves. We are not psychopaths, we are complex beings with multiple identities, and pretending that someone is either, but only "good" or "bad" or "toxic" or "healthy" is just not helpful.

 

 

 

a person can adapt certain facets of themselves to suit a social situation, but that doesn't change the fundamental core of who they are. Someone who is fundamentally honest will find an A loathsome prospect, and , should they choose to get involved in one, will find rends their very soul.

 

Anyone who can look at their spouse in the eyes and outright lie to them has checked their moral compass at the door. That is a choice, not a mistake.

[ladydesigner]

Because it is a love story. Not a good one, not one with a future, but if you think for a second that this guy did not feel in any way that he was in love you do not understand infidelity. This whole idea that "it is not love", is just a story people tell themselves outside of infidelity. For those involved, for however fleeting the moment, it is "love" and they are willing to loose EVERYTHING and EVERYONE to have it.

 

Any attempt to see it any other way is just BS delusion or over psycho analysis of what EVERYONE who comes in here SAYS they are FEELING.

 

Dime story hussy? Wow. If only it were that simple.

 

fellini I believe all A's are different. I do believe my WH was in love and loved his MOW. There is no doubt about it (even though my WH wont admit to it). My WH was willing to hide the MOW from me for 3 years (even underground). He protected her and not me. To me he was showing her and loving her during the A while he was not protecting me. My WH did lose everything to have it. He lost our faith in him (my children and I) and my respect.

 

Not all WS's are this way though. I believe there are some that do it as a recreation.

[fellini]

You will find that the literature bears out that this is not how it works.

 

People who have held, at the fundamental core of their being, that cheating is an unacceptable option, can, at any point, go on to cheat.

 

These people believed at the deepest level they would never cheat. And yet, they did.

 

There is a school of thought in infidelity that takes this approach that we are all either born cheaters or born monogamists with a heart so full of gold it's practically a crime. I don't buy it and Im definately not going to get into a discussion about how the decision at some point in someones good life they fall into an A means that they always were ready for an A, that they were always prepared to screw the person they married, dedicated 10 years to loving, had kids with just to make things even deadlier, reveal they were a timebomb waiting to go off.

 

The other school is this. Good people cheat.

 

 

 

a person can adapt certain facets of themselves to suit a social situation, but that doesn't change the fundamental core of who they are. Someone who is fundamentally honest will find an A loathsome prospect, and , should they choose to get involved in one, will find rends their very soul.

 

Anyone who can look at their spouse in the eyes and outright lie to them has checked their moral compass at the door. That is a choice, not a mistake.

[fellini]

fellini I believe all A's are different. I do believe my WH was in love and loved his MOW. There is no doubt about it (even though my WH wont admit to it). My WH was willing to hide the MOW from me for 3 years (even underground). He protected her and not me. To me he was showing her and loving her during the A while he was not protecting me. My WH did lose everything to have it. He lost our faith in him (my children and I) and my respect.

 

Not all WS's are this way though. I believe there are some that do it as a recreation.

 

All A's are different. So yes, of course, that means that some do it for recreation. But if I take your premise that every single A is different and only work with that, then we have very little in common here and no one would have anything to say that could be of any help to anyone here

 

It is possible to accept that all A's are different but to seek out the commonalities among our experiences.

 

Obviously I have almost nothing to say to people whose spouses are NPD if my WW had a ONS and felt so horrible about it that she came clean and did everything she could to make amends.

 

But to take the fact that "some" (and I mean some) affairs are recreational while 9 out of 10 threads in here and in the OW/OM area talk all about the love for the AP and how hard it is to break from it as an argument against talking about love seems to me to be rather unfair discussion strategy.

 

If people are going to keep using the "all A's are different" card we really cannot move forward as a community sharing experience.

[Furious]

a big wooow

 

i may sound as harsh as some of you sound here, but looks like some of you are in a worse situation and you need more help then i

 

i personally think that the conversation should have a positive vibe especially knowing that we all have enough internal negative energy

 

i came here for 2 reasons first and most important to get some feedback on how to change my mind behavior and second i could talk and share my story and debate over it

 

and among some very good ideas the constant one coming up is

 

TELL YOUR WIFE

 

now this may sound ok to some of you, but as i wrote earlier telling my wife is out of the options because

1. 90% our marriage will be over right away

2. even if decide to stay together our marriage will never be the same

3. it will destroy my sons world

 

and as some of you were saying its better that she knows and bla bla i think and i have a very strong opinion on this one that it better stays on me forever and i deal with it than the other two people as well

 

and i do think that you guys should stop pushing others as well to tell their partner about the affair because to me it looks like going from a fire to a volcano you're not helping with that one thats for sure.

 

the moment you share that with your partner that you have cheated no way your life will be the same, every time all the time than there will be extra suspicion or talk or debate or even jokes

 

and if you get caught deal with it than, and its a complete different scenario

 

last thing related i dont believe any of you here that you dont have some secrets, that you hide something for years from you partners we all do even some very small things its human nature

 

 

Well, you have it all figured out. No intention to divorce, not going to be honest with your wife. Meanwhile, actively trying to continue a "friendship" with the ex-ow. Did you not get the memo, the ex-ow has moved on.

 

But just be reassured good people cheat.

[Mr. Lucky]

The other school is this. Good people cheat.

 

Yes they do. But we're talking about their actions, not their inherent "goodness". Infidelity is a chosen conduct and were my spouse unfaithful I could care less about her mindset or state of being. What's left for a BS to deal with is what their WS said, what they wrote, where they went, what they did and who they did it with, all actions that carry their own weight and consequences. The WS story arc while cheating is of little importance or relevance - what do you think jimmybronx will tell his wife when he eventually gets caught?

 

And on what basis will she judge what he's done ??? Here's hint - it won't be based on how good a person he was while he was doing it...

 

Mr. Lucky

[wmacbride]

You will find that the literature bears out that this is not how it works.

 

People who have held, at the fundamental core of their being, that cheating is an unacceptable option, can, at any point, go on to cheat.

 

These people believed at the deepest level they would never cheat. And yet, they did.

 

There is a school of thought in infidelity that takes this approach that we are all either born cheaters or born monogamists with a heart so full of gold it's practically a crime. I don't buy it and Im definately not going to get into a discussion about how the decision at some point in someones good life they fall into an A means that they always were ready for an A, that they were always prepared to screw the person they married, dedicated 10 years to loving, had kids with just to make things even deadlier, reveal they were a timebomb waiting to go off.

 

The other school is this. Good people cheat.

 

 

You are totally missing the point.

 

When a ws looks into the eyes of his or her bs who has asked them if they have been cheating and says "no" and then just goes on their way, there is something fundamentally flawed in that person, at least in that point in time.

 

If it's just how they respond to different social situations, then their ability to deceive and just keep on going is very troubling, and I could never, ever trust someone like that.

 

 

I think that there are bs who are willing to perform mental gymnastics to try and rationalize A's, though they will swear up and down that is not what they are doing. My belief for why they do this is it's easier to believe that than it is to face the fact their ws did something so heinous to them.

It's no different than how some ow will do anything to try and blame the A on anything other than their mm, and be so willing to make excuses when it's hurting his bs. It's easier to do that than it is to face the fact that the person they care about could be doing something so cruel.

[merrmeade]

I think that there are bs who are willing to perform mental gymnastics to try and rationalize A's, though they will swear up and down that is not what they are doing. My belief for why they do this is it's easier to believe that than it is to face the fact their ws did something so heinous to them.

It's no different than how some ow will do anything to try and blame the A on anything other than their mm, and be so willing to make excuses when it's hurting his bs. It's easier to do that than it is to face the fact that the person they care about could be doing something so cruel.

No BS rationalizes the A. We may be stupid about the remorse, believing their story or tacitly allowing rug-sweeping, but the A was the crime. It happened. There's no rationalizing it away.

[wmacbride]

No BS rationalizes the A. We may be stupid about the remorse, believing their story or tacitly allowing rug-sweeping, but the A was the crime. It happened. There's no rationalizing it away.

 

I'm not saying everyone does, and I'm not meaning that they pretend the A never happened.

 

what I mean is some bs who will twist the situation around to not be the fault of thews, and they will do anything, up and including blaming themselves , for it not to be the ws fault or for the ws to not have been acting badly.

[fellini]

Yes they do. But we're talking about their actions, not their inherent "goodness". Infidelity is a chosen conduct and were my spouse unfaithful I could care less about her mindset or state of being. What's left for a BS to deal with is what their WS said, what they wrote, where they went, what they did and who they did it with, all actions that carry their own weight and consequences.

 

 

Actually this whole sub discourse is in response to a poster claiming that

 

a) question of whether love is a factor

b) the declaring that the AP was toxic and NOT the WS.

 

There are posters here who clearly say that there is no "inherent goodness" in a cheating spouse.

 

There is one thing for certain though: It takes a WS to have an AP

There does not exist an AP without a WS.

 

Someone could work in an environment with all the potential AP's at his feet, but he needs to make the decision to convert them. An AP is an AP to the WS. No WS, no AP, and we are always FIRST talking about the orientation of the WS to the AP, not the other way round.

[fellini]

Well, you have it all figured out. No intention to divorce, not going to be honest with your wife. Meanwhile, actively trying to continue a "friendship" with the ex-ow. Did you not get the memo, the ex-ow has moved on.

 

But just be reassured good people cheat.

 

The phrase Good people cheat does not mean that anyone is saying it is good to cheat or you are a good person for cheating.

 

All it means is that good people also cheat. OP got the memo. He is asking how to end it in his head. But clearly his refusal to tell continues to strike a nerve here.

[Ladyjane14]

The phrase Good people cheat does not mean that anyone is saying it is good to cheat or you are a good person for cheating.

 

All it means is that good people also cheat. OP got the memo. He is asking how to end it in his head. But clearly his refusal to tell continues to strike a nerve here.

 

But you're NOT a "good person" when you cheat. THAT's the part you can't seem to wrap your mind around. And continuing to make excuses for why it's okay for the OP to keep his former OW on her pedestal isn't helpful because it doesn't break through the fog.

 

Can that dynamic change?... yes. But is the cheater a total ******* when they're looking you in the eye and LYING?... yes. And so too was the person they were cheating with.

 

If he's determined not to tell, than this is the other route. Accepting the shame of what he's done, allowing himself to FEEL that shame, clears the fog, removing the grandiosity. Really looking at the OW for the kind of rank person who would screw another woman's husband forces him to look at his own behavior.... clears the fog.

 

It's not about YOUR personal definition of "love" or whether YOU think it's a good enough excuse to stab your spouse in the back. It's about CLEARING THE FOG. It's a tool. When he looks at the OW and her no-good behavior, he sees his own. While he's making excuses for the OW and her no-good behavior, he's making excuses for his own.

[fellini]

Actually the pedastel metaphor is yours and yours alone.

 

I have completely wrapped my head around the part where my WW was not a "good person" to me, our daughter, our marriage when she was cheating.

 

She was a very good person until she began to interact with who later became her AP, and she is a very good person now that she has done the work to understand what she has done, why she has done it, what are her boundaries, what are the appropriate ways to deal with her own actions, etc. etc.

 

This fog you speak of is quite literally a foggy term. The OP has held a discussion with his AP and they have jointly ended their Affair. FOG is not the issue: his lingering emotions for his exAP are.

 

That he has failed to grasp the deeper personal issues of his infidelity in terms of his marriage I agree. But I do not call this FOG, I call this lack of introspection and a refusal to engage his own mind in these matters. He came here clearly out of the affair fog looking for a way to sweep his emotions aside and sweep aside the personal issues he has that allowed him to cheat, and in order to see himself as a good person. He needs to see he behaved badly and he needs to do something about it.

 

What he lacks in a nutshell is remorse, which I do not think he is ever going to have. And beyond that the desire look at himself in the mirror. This will prevent him from protecting himself and his family from cheating again in the future.

 

But you're NOT a "good person" when you cheat. THAT's the part you can't seem to wrap your mind around. And continuing to make excuses for why it's okay for the OP to keep his former OW on her pedestal isn't helpful because it doesn't break through the fog.

 

Can that dynamic change?... yes. But is the cheater a total ******* when they're looking you in the eye and LYING?... yes. And so too was the person they were cheating with.

 

If he's determined not to tell, than this is the other route. Accepting the shame of what he's done, allowing himself to FEEL that shame, clears the fog, removing the grandiosity. Really looking at the OW for the kind of rank person who would screw another woman's husband forces him to look at his own behavior.... clears the fog.

 

It's not about YOUR personal definition of "love" or whether YOU think it's a good enough excuse to stab your spouse in the back. It's about CLEARING THE FOG. It's a tool. When he looks at the OW and her no-good behavior, he sees his own. While he's making excuses for the OW and her no-good behavior, he's making excuses for his own.

[Furious]

The phrase Good people cheat does not mean that anyone is saying it is good to cheat or you are a good person for cheating.

 

All it means is that good people also cheat. OP got the memo. He is asking how to end it in his head. But clearly his refusal to tell continues to strike a nerve here.

 

How odd, to defend not telling as striking a nerve. Is encouraging honesty not a good thing?

 

As far as saying good people cheat, is an oxymoron. I see it as some people cheat, by inserting the word "good" in context to deceit is simply mental gymnastics.

 

Cheaters know it is wrong to cheat, otherwise they would not lie about it. it's music to their ears when they hear "good people cheat", especially those who have no remorse or those who have had more than one affair.

[fellini]

How odd, to defend not telling as striking a nerve. Is encouraging honesty not a good thing?

 

As far as saying good people cheat, is an oxymoron. I see it as some people cheat, by inserting the word "good" in context to deceit is simply mental gymnastics.

 

Cheaters know it is wrong to cheat, otherwise they would not lie about it. it's music to their ears when they hear "good people cheat", especially those who have no remorse or those who have had more than one affair.

 

No of course encouraging honesty is a good thing. But after dozens of posts, OP came back and explicitly said: I am not going to tell. Stop asking me too. And he gave his reasons. And then he said what he was looking for, but people continue to harp on the confession.

 

It's not that not telling is striking a nerve, it is that the LS community refuses to respect his wishes and acknowledge that that topic has been dealt with and it's time to move on. But here you are plugging it one more time.

[Furious]

No of course encouraging honesty is a good thing. But after dozens of posts, OP came back and explicitly said: I am not going to tell. Stop asking me too. And he gave his reasons. And then he said what he was looking for, but people continue to harp on the confession.

 

It's not that not telling is striking a nerve, it is that the LS community refuses to respect his wishes and acknowledge that that topic has been dealt with and it's time to move on. But here you are plugging it one more time.

 

The irony is you have been the most active in this thread and yet you admonish others for participating. It is not up to you to decide that this topic has been dealt with.

 

If the OP wishes to close this thread, it is his decision, not yours.

Edited December 11, 2015 by Furious

[Mr. Lucky]

There are posters here who clearly say that there is no "inherent goodness" in a cheating spouse.

 

Other than in ways manifested though one's actions and conduct, how would you determine someone's 'goodness' ?

 

Mr. Lucky

[ladydesigner]

How odd, to defend not telling as striking a nerve. Is encouraging honesty not a good thing?

 

As far as saying good people cheat, is an oxymoron. I see it as some people cheat, by inserting the word "good" in context to deceit is simply mental gymnastics.

 

Cheaters know it is wrong to cheat, otherwise they would not lie about it. it's music to their ears when they hear "good people cheat", especially those who have no remorse or those who have had more than one affair.

 

Thank You Furious!

[fellini]

As far as saying good people cheat, is an oxymoron. I see it as some people cheat, by inserting the word "good" in context to deceit is simply mental gymnastics.

 

Cheaters know it is wrong to cheat, otherwise they would not lie about it. it's music to their ears when they hear "good people cheat", especially those who have no remorse or those who have had more than one affair.

 

Well take that up with Mira Kirschenbaum then. Obviously it has worked wonders for her. And Esther Perel, and Glass: they have all used the phrase "Good people cheat" to great effect and were very serious when they wrote about it. I never laid claim to the phrase.

 

Mental gymnastics is what you are attempting to do here with my posts, not me.