cant get out

[ladydesigner]

How odd, to defend not telling as striking a nerve. Is encouraging honesty not a good thing?

 

As far as saying good people cheat, is an oxymoron. I see it as some people cheat, by inserting the word "good" in context to deceit is simply mental gymnastics.

 

Cheaters know it is wrong to cheat, otherwise they would not lie about it. it's music to their ears when they hear "good people cheat", especially those who have no remorse or those who have had more than one affair.

 

Thank You Furious!

[fellini]

As far as saying good people cheat, is an oxymoron. I see it as some people cheat, by inserting the word "good" in context to deceit is simply mental gymnastics.

 

Cheaters know it is wrong to cheat, otherwise they would not lie about it. it's music to their ears when they hear "good people cheat", especially those who have no remorse or those who have had more than one affair.

 

Well take that up with Mira Kirschenbaum then. Obviously it has worked wonders for her. And Esther Perel, and Glass: they have all used the phrase "Good people cheat" to great effect and were very serious when they wrote about it. I never laid claim to the phrase.

 

Mental gymnastics is what you are attempting to do here with my posts, not me.

[nightmare01]

Whether someone or something is "good" or "bad" is entirely subjective. In certain contexts Hitler was a good person, and in other contexts Mother Teresa may not have been.

 

Cheating is bad and wrong and evil. It's a deliberately selfish, destructive, and hurtful act.

 

"Good people cheat" - ok... good in what way? Certainly not a good husband or wife. Probably not a good mother or father. If it's a workplace affair, they aren't good employees. But maybe they are kind to animals.. so ok they're good.

 

If "good people cheat", then better people don't cheat.

 

Frankly I think the phrase "good people cheat" is uttered to make cheaters not feel so bad about themselves. Maybe then that are more amenable to counseling..?

[Furious]

Well take that up with Mira Kirschenbaum then. Obviously it has worked wonders for her. And Esther Perel, and Glass: they have all used the phrase "Good people cheat" to great effect and were very serious when they wrote about it. I never laid claim to the phrase.

 

Mental gymnastics is what you are attempting to do here with my posts, not me.

 

Not sure about Glass using that phrase, highly doubt it. As for Perel, her art therapy degree from a minor institution is not impressive and perhaps she's used that phrase. I do know Kirchenbaum was cheated on by her husband, and used an oxymoron as a book title.

 

I still see it as "some people cheat"., no mental gymnastics required.

[katielee]

I think we're splitting hairs here. And I think Kirshenbaum was wrong. People who are mentally unhealthy cheat. Was I a good person before I cheated? Probably by society standards. But I was mentally unhealthy, constantly looking for external validation. I believe THIS is what folks are looking for when they seek out WHYS. How could a good person do this? Heck I thought I was a good daughter, good mother and good wife (until I wasn't - for 3 months). But I really wasn't - as I look at my choices they were all about being validated - I lived vicariously though my kids and husband. That was damn unhealthy and hurt them. But good vs bad - I wish those terms weren't used. They're no where deep enough.

Edited December 12, 2015 by katielee

[wmacbride]

Well take that up with Mira Kirschenbaum then. Obviously it has worked wonders for her. And Esther Perel, and Glass: they have all used the phrase "Good people cheat" to great effect and were very serious when they wrote about it. I never laid claim to the phrase.

 

Mental gymnastics is what you are attempting to do here with my posts, not me.

 

 

Likely they were trying to sell books. Like anyone else, they want to get paid, and it's really easy to attract a buyer of you are telling them what they want to hear.

[Ladyjane14]

I think we're splitting hairs here. And I think Kirshenbaum was wrong. People who are mentally unhealthy cheat. Was I a good person before I cheated? Probably by society standards. But I was mentally unhealthy, constantly looking for external validation. I believe THIS is what folks are looking for when they seek out WHYS. How could a good person do this? Heck I thought I was a good daughter, good mother and good wife (until I wasn't - for 3 months). But I really wasn't - as I look at my choices they were all about being validated - I lived vicariously though my kids and husband. That was damn unhealthy and hurt them. But good vs bad - I wish those terms weren't used. They're no where deep enough.

 

"External validation". I think that's the key. And that's why I ask cheating spouses who WANT to recover to really open their eyes and LOOK at the AP. They're just not that special. They're usually somebody who's even more damaged; willing to involve themselves with a married person.

 

When a WS really looks, what they realize is that there was something inside themselves wanting validation at all costs... and that they never needed someone else/I] to give it to them. It was always something that had to come from the inside.

 

What a WS really needs is to face their own fears and insecurities, to allow themselves to feel those feelings. When they do, they realize the big bugaboos they expected aren't so bad. They're tolerable. And more so than the loss of honor a WS typically experiences through avoidance.

[wmacbride]

I think we're splitting hairs here. And I think Kirshenbaum was wrong. People who are mentally unhealthy cheat. Was I a good person before I cheated? Probably by society standards. But I was mentally unhealthy, constantly looking for external validation. I believe THIS is what folks are looking for when they seek out WHYS. How could a good person do this? Heck I thought I was a good daughter, good mother and good wife (until I wasn't - for 3 months). But I really wasn't - as I look at my choices they were all about being validated - I lived vicariously though my kids and husband. That was damn unhealthy and hurt them. But good vs bad - I wish those terms weren't used. They're no where deep enough.

 

I don't know your story, so I don't know if you came clean to your bs or not.

 

It does sound like you went through a period of personal growth. If you did come clean, do you think you would have if you had never told about the A?

[katielee]

Yes I confessed. And I can only say that I was going to live authentically or drive off a bridge. That was rock bottom.

[fellini]

Not sure about Glass using that phrase, highly doubt it. As for Perel, her art therapy degree from a minor institution is not impressive and perhaps she's used that phrase. I do know Kirchenbaum was cheated on by her husband, and used an oxymoron as a book title.

 

I still see it as "some people cheat"., no mental gymnastics required.

 

This crap about Perel is a broken record. Let me guess, your source is the illustrious Chumplady. Or maybe just the guy a couple pages back who tried to say exactly the same thing whose source was, surprise surprise, Chumplady.

 

Oh and by the way, Shirley Glass did all her education at one of the top notch IVY LEAGUE universities in America: Catholic University of America. Im sure it's there somewhere on the list among the very best, and surely, too, their Psych department is internationally renowned. Later, with this huge degree which she achived from a this far from "minor institution" she went on to develop the practice that would lead to her one day writing "Not Best Friends": The Baltimore City School System.

 

 

Shirley Glass, the guru of infidelity, among a handful of qualified psychologists publishing books not "just to make a profit" has been quoted as saying: "Good people in good marriages are having affairs at alarming rates". Now that is one twisted oxymoronic writer for you.

 

But you're right, it's highly doubtful that she said "good people cheat".

 

If you want to trash someone with the credentials of Esther Perel, you should do your homework on the same criteria you use to prop up equally popular best selling authors. That Mira K was cheated on makes her more qualified in my book. That Shirley Glass grew up in and continued to remain inside a Catholic view of marriage makes her less in my book.

 

But one thing is for certain, you know zero about the European universities where Perel studied, and even less how Art Therapy used for working with Holocaust survivors is considered fundamental work. What are your credentials for evaluating the choice of study of a woman who grew up in a community of holocaust victims and who decided to make her start in this selfless work?

 

So Esther Perel has no credentials but the Chumplady does. Wow. Exit stage right....

Edited December 12, 2015 by fellini

[waterwoman]

I think it's irrelevant whether cheaters are good or bad, or whether they are usually good but just bad when they cheat, or always bad but hide it well..... it doesn't matter. What matters is the impact their actions when cheating have on their lives and the lives of those close to them.

 

FWIW my FWH is a normal healthy mixture of good and bad and there were elements of his A that showed him objectively to be a good man - his care for his fairly unhappy OW in her chaotic dysfunctional life - but from my POV he was an utter s**t and I couldn't give a flying toss about her unhappiness (does that make me 'bad'?). If my kids knew I suspect they would have felt the same as me. I have a more measured reaction now so maybe I am back to being good?

[Cymbeline]

Surely Esther Perel takes a realistic and humane view of human sexuality and needs? the number of infidelities shows that whatever we are doing now isn't working.

[katielee]

I'm not sure a discussion on human sexuality or monogamy is merited. Its been my experience that infidelity really has nothing to do with either, in most cases... I don't think it has to do with wanting another partner, it has to do with feeling validated and wanted and getting our ego stroked. The sex usually comes way later.

[ladydesigner]

I'm not sure a discussion on human sexuality or monogamy is merited. Its been my experience that infidelity really has nothing to do with either, in most cases... I don't think it has to do with wanting another partner, it has to do with feeling validated and wanted and getting our ego stroked. The sex usually comes way later.

 

Yep I have to agree. When I put my xMOW hat on that is exactly how it felt to me as well!

[Furious]

This crap about Perel is a broken record. Let me guess, your source is the illustrious Chumplady. Or maybe just the guy a couple pages back who tried to say exactly the same thing whose source was, surprise surprise, Chumplady.

 

Oh and by the way, Shirley Glass did all her education at one of the top notch IVY LEAGUE universities in America: Catholic University of America. Im sure it's there somewhere on the list among the very best, and surely, too, their Psych department is internationally renowned. Later, with this huge degree which she achived from a this far from "minor institution" she went on to develop the practice that would lead to her one day writing "Not Best Friends": The Baltimore City School System.

 

 

Shirley Glass, the guru of infidelity, among a handful of qualified psychologists publishing books not "just to make a profit" has been quoted as saying: "Good people in good marriages are having affairs at alarming rates". Now that is one twisted oxymoronic writer for you.

 

But you're right, it's highly doubtful that she said "good people cheat".

 

If you want to trash someone with the credentials of Esther Perel, you should do your homework on the same criteria you use to prop up equally popular best selling authors. That Mira K was cheated on makes her more qualified in my book. That Shirley Glass grew up in and continued to remain inside a Catholic view of marriage makes her less in my book.

 

But one thing is for certain, you know zero about the European universities where Perel studied, and even less how Art Therapy used for working with Holocaust survivors is considered fundamental work. What are your credentials for evaluating the choice of study of a woman who grew up in a community of holocaust victims and who decided to make her start in this selfless work?

 

So Esther Perel has no credentials but the Chumplady does. Wow. Exit stage right....

 

 

I have no idea about this Chump lady you're referring to.

 

I have read many books on infidelity and do research the author as to their credentials. As for Dr. Shirley Glass, she based her work on her own clinical studies and other clinical studies. She wrote from a clinical perspective and backed it up with data.

 

As for Esther Perel, has no PhD degree, she has only an art therapy degree and has no clinical research to base her work on. She only makes assumptions without clinical research of her own. She has never published a clinical study . She has a degree from Lesley College,which is ranked #30 in in Massachusetts USA, and very low in worldwide rankings, perhaps you're confused about locations of European Universities.

 

I do have a degree from a University that has always been ranked in the top ten tier in worldwide rankings.

 

If Esther Perel, is your cup of tea, so be it.

Edited December 12, 2015 by Furious

[NewLeaf512]

This crap about Perel is a broken record. Let me guess, your source is the illustrious Chumplady. Or maybe just the guy a couple pages back who tried to say exactly the same thing whose source was, surprise surprise, Chumplady.

 

Oh and by the way, Shirley Glass did all her education at one of the top notch IVY LEAGUE universities in America: Catholic University of America. Im sure it's there somewhere on the list among the very best, and surely, too, their Psych department is internationally renowned. Later, with this huge degree which she achived from a this far from "minor institution" she went on to develop the practice that would lead to her one day writing "Not Best Friends": The Baltimore City School System.

 

 

Shirley Glass, the guru of infidelity, among a handful of qualified psychologists publishing books not "just to make a profit" has been quoted as saying: "Good people in good marriages are having affairs at alarming rates". Now that is one twisted oxymoronic writer for you.

 

But you're right, it's highly doubtful that she said "good people cheat".

 

If you want to trash someone with the credentials of Esther Perel, you should do your homework on the same criteria you use to prop up equally popular best selling authors. That Mira K was cheated on makes her more qualified in my book. That Shirley Glass grew up in and continued to remain inside a Catholic view of marriage makes her less in my book.

 

But one thing is for certain, you know zero about the European universities where Perel studied, and even less how Art Therapy used for working with Holocaust survivors is considered fundamental work. What are your credentials for evaluating the choice of study of a woman who grew up in a community of holocaust victims and who decided to make her start in this selfless work?

 

So Esther Perel has no credentials but the Chumplady does. Wow. Exit stage right....

 

As the granddaughter of 2 survivors I can attest how music and art therapy changed my grandparents lives. My grandmother was freed from a camp weighing 34 kg and unable to form words after being imprisioned and the only reason both she and my grandfather even made it that far is because when they were sent to Poland they were both highly skilled Austrian surgeons.

 

To the collective YOU, if the comment fits you:

 

If anyone here has an opinion on the healing of emotional trauma, the soothing of PTSD or any of the other effects art therapy, music therapy or any other therapy has on Holocaust victims or someone like me who witnessed a suicide and shooting PM me. I am sick to the back teeth of people who have never had art or music therapy in their lives from a therapist qualified anywhere dispute the efficacy or validity of it. I hope to G-d that you never need any art or music therapy or your kids play therapy from a therapist qualified at a major or minor university. There aren't may because it's a labour of love since there is NO MONEY IN IT.

 

If as Fellini points out in his post quoting Furious that one's alma matter makes them more credible than others, I'm happy to put my credentials up at the start of each post I write, and as I have more degrees from "impressive" universities than most people perhaps that might be impressive. In reality what matters is our experiences and what we have learned from them.

 

Sorry about the high jack of your post Fellini but I am extremely hot about you having to defend this bollocks all the time.

 

And why on earth people keep bringing up Hitler is ghastly. Why are people doing that Fellini?

[NewLeaf512]

I have no idea about this Chump lady you're referring to.

 

I have read many books on infidelity and do research the author as to their credentials. As for Dr. Shirley Glass, she based her work on her own clinical studies and other clinical studies. She wrote from a clinical perspective and backed it up with data.

 

As for Esther Perel, has no PhD degree, she has only an art therapy degree and has no clinical research to base her work on. She only makes assumptions without clinical research of her own. She has never published a clinical study . She has a degree from Lesley College,which is ranked #30 in in Massachusetts USA, and very low in worldwide rankings, perhaps you're confused about locations of European Universities.

 

I do have a degree from a University that has always been ranked in the top ten tier in worldwide rankings.

 

If Esther Perel, is your cup of tea, so be it.

 

If you don't know who chump lady is I find that absolutely interesting. You have posted the EXACT same sentences as another poster in another thread. To what do you attribute that single mindedness?

[Cymbeline]

'.. I don't think it has to do with wanting another partner, it has to do with feeling validated and wanted and getting our ego stroked. The sex usually comes'

 

But this is exactly what Perel says. She states that if there is one message she wants us to take from her work it is that we do not become unfaithful in order to find a new partner, but to escape from the person we have become .

 

Have her critics actually read her? And she has done plenty of work that has value and resonance to those who have been involvedninbthe complexity of an affair in any way.

[cocorico]

 

so im kind of really messed up right now and i dont know what to do and how,

 

1. i tried to forget her for over 5 months and results were not great

2. i dont want to end up my marriage

3. i dont want a new affair or relationship with her

4. i would like her friendship (sometimes i think this could be risky)

 

 

your comments and advice would mean a lot to me, i really need to get out of this situation. thanks in advance to each and everyone.

 

Jimmy, you've indicated that the A is over, and you want to keep your M, but you are having difficulty moving on. It seems that your fOW is trying to move on herself, but has allowed interaction. I don't think that is good for either of you, as it keeps you connected.

 

A friendship will probably not be possible - or, not in the short term. You speak about moments with her being among your all time best - so the emotional investment is still there. And as long as it is, forgetting her will be hard.

 

I'm not going to recommend you diss her - her behaviour was certainly no worse than your own, so that would be hypocritical in the extreme. I'm also not going to recommend that you flail about in a pit of self-loathing - I don't believe that is constructive. Rather, read - books like "when good people have affairs", or journal articles if you have access to an academic library, or watch TED talks by people like Esther Perel - to try to understand what you were missing in your M or in yourself that led you to become vulnerable to an A. And then, work on fixing that. If relationship issues are at the source, enlist your wife's help in addressing those. If personal issues are the cause, consider counselling.

 

Trying to forget what you claim are highlights of your life isn't an easy task - but if you can create some even better memories, alone or with your family, those other memories will slowly pale and recede, and you will discover that you have moved on.

[cocorico]

'.. I don't think it has to do with wanting another partner, it has to do with feeling validated and wanted and getting our ego stroked. The sex usually comes'

 

But this is exactly what Perel says. She states that if there is one message she wants us to take from her work it is that we do not become unfaithful in order to find a new partner, but to escape from the person we have become .

 

Have her critics actually read her? And she has done plenty of work that has value and resonance to those who have been involvedninbthe complexity of an affair in any way.

 

This was certainly true for my H.

[fellini]

As you can see, arguments like Furious has made that "Good people Cheat" is an oxymoron, supported by others saying its a ploy to sell books etc. etc. is just ingenuous debate.

 

Im not going to prove that almost every best selling author has used that phrase and explained it, and therefore BACKS IT UP. Becuase Furious will never conceed that this is all just stirring up the pot.

 

He is wrong about that phrase, and has no arguments so he goes after people's credentials, again, which has has totally wrong. It's unbelievable form of discussion and I won't participate any longer.

[ladydesigner]

'.. I don't think it has to do with wanting another partner, it has to do with feeling validated and wanted and getting our ego stroked. The sex usually comes'

 

But this is exactly what Perel says. She states that if there is one message she wants us to take from her work it is that we do not become unfaithful in order to find a new partner, but to escape from the person we have become .

 

Have her critics actually read her? And she has done plenty of work that has value and resonance to those who have been involvedninbthe complexity of an affair in any way.

 

I have not read Perel, but find this very intriguing! When I had my own A the last thing I wanted was another partner (I mean I had just found out my WH had cheated). My A was an escape from pain. I'm sure my WH saw his own A that way because our M at the time was strained (due to BOTH of us) and MOW was an escape from pain for him too.

[NewLeaf512]

NL, not so long ago you were being disrespected by the very same poster you are now applauding. I've been kind to you and never disrespected you.

 

Something is off here. And as to your accusation, the credentials of Perel is public, you can seek it yourself.

 

That is absolutely true Fellini has insulted me more than once. I abhor some of the things Fellini says, and I've told him so.

 

Likewise it is true that you have always been kind and respectful to me.

 

What is off here is simply this: it's absolutely maddening for posters (whether I prefer them personally as I do you, or they rub me the wrong way, as Fellini mostly does) to use elitist phrases like "minor university".

 

You and I and who knows how many others here, through hard work or privilege were lucky enough to get to the Ivy League or "Oxbridge" the seven sisters, MIT or elsewhere like Cornell, Bard or Goldsmiths. Does that make us better people or our views more valid? I think not. Rather we are bestowed with a responsibility to do better and to use the reasoning, rationale and methods we have been taught to further our points and not use an easy "minor university" jab as a crutch not to make our point in our own words.

 

I point your post out to you not because I accuse you of anything, but merely to show how EASILY one can read something and subconsciously absorb a catty-ism which I believe you would never say to someone's face, and repeat it. The vilification of Perel is all over the chump lady site. I do not myself know if there is any validity to her work, I have never read her. What I do know is that for all the posts you have made, on that one you let yourself down because I know you have something better to offer.

[Cymbeline]

Some of Perel's work is easily available online . Here is a link to an interview with her.

 

Esther Perel on affairs: Spouses in happy marriages cheat and Americans don?t understand infidelity.

[Furious]

That is absolutely true Fellini has insulted me more than once. I abhor some of the things Fellini says, and I've told him so.

 

Likewise it is true that you have always been kind and respectful to me.

 

What is off here is simply this: it's absolutely maddening for posters (whether I prefer them personally as I do you, or they rub me the wrong way, as Fellini mostly does) to use elitist phrases like "minor university".

 

You and I and who knows how many others here, through hard work or privilege were lucky enough to get to the Ivy League or "Oxbridge" the seven sisters, MIT or elsewhere like Cornell, Bard or Goldsmiths. Does that make us better people or our views more valid? I think not. Rather we are bestowed with a responsibility to do better and to use the reasoning, rationale and methods we have been taught to further our points and not use an easy "minor university" jab as a crutch not to make our point in our own words.

 

I point your post out to you not because I accuse you of anything, but merely to show how EASILY one can read something and subconsciously absorb a catty-ism which I believe you would never say to someone's face, and repeat it. The vilification of Perel is all over the chump lady site. I do not myself know if there is any validity to her work, I have never read her. What I do know is that for all the posts you have made, on that one you let yourself down because I know you have something better to offer.

 

You're backtracking, you did accuse me of parroting another poster, and assumed much. Is it beyond sensibility that all authors credentials are available and it has bearing as to their work.

 

I was fortunate to receive a scholarship, and worked hard in my success, and these past 12 years have set up a scholarship to pay it forward.

 

The irony is you have had others here assume much of you, and you've set them straight with your story and experience. I would imagine you'd do the same for others.