Question for Catholics - spin-off thread from the "signs" thread

[HokeyReligions]

I saw on TV today that someone saw a 'picture of Jesus or Mary" (don't remember which now) in their apartment window. People began to gather around the window to pray and touch the glass---some claiming that their fingerprints disappeared when the touched the glass (the news announcer was saying this as the video showed someone wiping the outside of the glass with a papertowel!)

 

Anyway, I don't recall any other Christian-based religions who gather around liknesses in glass or in trees or mirrors or whatever. Why do so many catholics do this? Is there something in the Catholic faith that directs people to do this? Do any of you catholics believe these things to be some kind of sign from God? If so, what are these signs supposed to mean?

 

Is there a difference between seeing a likness in nature (a tree trunk comes to mind) or in a man-made object like the window?

 

Maybe because I'm in Texas and close to the Mexican border that I notice that the majority of the people who show up to witness these anomolaies are of Mexican decent. Is it that way throughout the world, or is this something more specific to a culture vs. religion?

 

Just curious.

[melina]

I'm Catholic and have been brought up with all sorts of funny beliefs. And then there is somewhat a saint for every problem you have and so on.

 

I guess the Catholic church has always very strongly used symbols (most of all earthly symbols). To me, that's more like blasphemy to insist you've seen christ or mary in a window.

[st8toftheheart]

I was born Catholic but don't profess to be one. There are many stranger traditions that I cannot fathom.

 

So many holidays and ceremonies were based on old Pagan traditions and ceremonies, but they the condem paganism.

 

They ask for coffers during mass, but the pope lives in a palace.

 

The list goes on. Sometimes people run to these images because they are looking for validation. Validation that there is in fact a higher being, that their lives are being lived the way they are supposed to be lived.

 

Some with truth faith, I would think, would not need that.

[quankanne]

the Church (i.e., the hierarchy, i.e., the BIG guys like the red hats and the guy in white) don't promote these alleged apparitions. In fact, there's a lot of red tape that someone's got to get through to authenticate a sighting. An example: in recent years, the Blessed Mother allegedly has appeared in Medjugorje, but Rome hasn't officially ruled on that, and prolly won't in our lifetime. They're very, very leery of these things.

 

however, that these "visions" inspire people to become more in touch with their spiritual side is something they are okay with, I think because it helps them take their faith more seriously. Do y'all remember the image of Our Lady of Guadalupe that "appeared" in an office high-rise in Florida several years ago? I met the guy who carved a larger than life sized crucifix that is displayed near there. he's a pretty pious guy, but this so-called vision encouraged him to do something to help share his faith with others as he donated time and materials to create this crucifix, which in turn became a kind of focal point for others to concentrate on their relationship with God/Christ.

 

Why do so many Catholics do this? Is there something in the Catholic faith that directs people to do this?

 

good question. I personally think it's because we have a long history and tradition of recognizing holy people ("saints" in our terminology) in our spiritual family. To have pictures or medals or other images of these folks is as normal as displaying pictures of Granny and little Johnny, or the babies in the family we're just crazy about. There was no such thing as KodaChrome back in the Dark Ages, so their memories are kept alive in books and painting. We don't do it to worship, but to remember and to remind us that here are people who love God so much that they've devoted themselves to him. Think along the lines of the pink ribbon breast cancer awareness campaign, or the "tie a yellow ribbon around the old oak tree for your soldier" campaign. Those people aren't being worshipped, just remembered.

 

Do any of you catholics believe these things to be some kind of sign from God

 

personally speaking? it's interesting stuff, but I find more awe-inspiring those things people try to give scientific basis and take for granted, but when you really think about it, it can only be of God. Like the human body. We see ourselves in the mirror every day; we pass others on our way to work, on our way to eat, on our way somewhere. But when you think about it, how amazing is it that Organ A knows precisely what to do and doesn't confuse itself with B or C? Or that the strands of DNA know what they're about? How does it know? Man can't replicate it, only try his best to figure it out. Those to me are signs of God, those things that seemingly are answerable, but when you look at them aren't. Though I guess i shouldn't tell you about the blessed miraculous medals I've got in the console in my car just waiting to be tossed on the property of the house we're hoping to close on, should I?

 

As for the Mexican connection, hokey, well, lets just say the closer you get to the border, the less inhibited people are about sharing their love of and dependency on God. It has to do with how they see stuff as stuff and rely fully on God and are happy to share it. Spiritual poverty, I think is the terminology.

 

They ask for coffers during Mass, but the pope lives in a palace

 

lol, you sound like my husband, who doesn't seem to realize that the Church is locally operated even though it is universal. The riches of one parish are not that of another, unless you're counting spiritual riches, which are shared through evangelization. So, the pope may live in splendor, but I think an average parish priest has more change in his pocket at any given time than the Holy Father.

 

interestingly enough, that raises another interesting bit of information. I've heard of churches in poor countries that are like gilded lillies; the people sacrifice and give all they have to God, building him a house of splendor while they live in squalor. And they're okay with it because they figure God gets the homage, not them.

[HokeyReligions]

Originally posted by quankanne

the Church (i.e., the hierarchy, i.e., the BIG guys like the red hats and the guy in white) don't promote these alleged apparitions. In fact, there's a lot of red tape that someone's got to get through to authenticate a sighting. An example: in recent years, the Blessed Mother allegedly has appeared in Medjugorje, but Rome hasn't officially ruled on that, and prolly won't in our lifetime. They're very, very leery of these things.

 

however, that these "visions" inspire people to become more in touch with their spiritual side is something they are okay with, I think because it helps them take their faith more seriously. Do y'all remember the image of Our Lady of Guadalupe that "appeared" in an office high-rise in Florida several years ago? I met the guy who carved a larger than life sized crucifix that is displayed near there. he's a pretty pious guy, but this so-called vision encouraged him to do something to help share his faith with others as he donated time and materials to create this crucifix, which in turn became a kind of focal point for others to concentrate on their relationship with God/Christ.

 

That makes sense. In every faith people have symbols which they use to maintain or create focus and to remind them of their Gods' love for them and which they many times use to inspire their worship -- like a string around a finger to remember something, only more structured and recognizable, and as a way of sharing a communion with each other in their God's name. The Baptist & Methodist churches (and others I've attended) have rituals and symbols too. I can't count the number of "last supper" paintings and pictures I've seen in homes!

 

As for the Mexican connection, hokey, well, lets just say the closer you get to the border, the less inhibited people are about sharing their love of and dependency on God. It has to do with how they see stuff as stuff and rely fully on God and are happy to share it. Spiritual poverty, I think is the terminology.

Less inhibited -- yes, I kinda thought it was more cultural. The further North we go in America, the more inhibited people are about a lot of things--religion among them. I noticed that when I first move out here to Texas from Michigan, and after having visited some of the east coast. People are only open and uninhibited in areas they designate, not so much in public and they don't share as much of themselves as openly as they do here, but that goes for all religions. The Church of Christ here is a lot 'looser' than the ones I went to back home!

 

They ask for coffers during Mass, but the pope lives in a palace

 

lol, you sound like my husband, who doesn't seem to realize that the Church is locally operated even though it is universal. The riches of one parish are not that of another, unless you're counting spiritual riches, which are shared through evangelization. So, the pope may live in splendor, but I think an average parish priest has more change in his pocket at any given time than the Holy Father.

 

interestingly enough, that raises another interesting bit of information. I've heard of churches in poor countries that are like gilded lillies; the people sacrifice and give all they have to God, building him a house of splendor while they live in squalor. And they're okay with it because they figure God gets the homage, not them.

 

I used to think that way too, that many religious leaders don't seem to live the way they expect their congregation to live and to apply that over all faiths is incomplete logic. There are what I call Religion Pimps who do it for the money and then there are those who are honest in their belief and their charisma carries their congregation and encourages them to give more. One has to really think about it though, a gloriously wealthy church does not belong to the minister who may dwell there---but to the congretation who are showing the devotion not just in love and works, but in a manner that any sinner can recognize---material wealth; and that God will see as them giving up their material wealth for His love. The Bible is full of bloody sacrifices -- but what is more precious to a farmer than his crop? If he raises sheep is not the lamb a valuable commodity with which he needs to support his family? To give one up where no one benifits from the meat or wool may seem like a waste to some---like throwing away money that one can ill afford. But to the farmer who believes, it is not a sacrifice, but an offering of love.

 

 

I do remember that image in Florida some years ago, many people came to see it and worship near it. My mother would have some choice words to say about it because as she sees it, these people were praying to an image -- a false image at that (in her opinion) -- and that was the same as blasphemy because she (and many) relate that to praying to graven images -- a big No-No in the Bible. As a child growing up and hearing only what my mother told me and what the Sunday School teacher said, I thought the same thing. As an adult I began to question and I have learned a LOT more than my family could have taught me.

 

I'll have to look up how the Catholic church actually does go about authenticating a sighting -- I think it would be interesting (possibly a bit boring too?) to look at the procedures and what it takes and how long it takes to say it is a true sign from God. What do they call it when it is officially 'stamped' authentic?

[moimeme]

she (and many) relate that to praying to graven images -- a big No-No in the Bible.

 

That was because the 'graven images' were of God the Cow and God the Big Cheeseburger and other guys who aren't the real magilla. And maybe even those folks believed the images themselves were gods. We don't. We no more think they're God than you think the photo of your husband is actually your husband. I wish people would get that because it's kind of tiring to have folks believe something so totally foolish.

[quankanne]

I wish people would get that because it's kind of tiring to have folks believe something so totally foolish.

 

ah, but moi, it's been my experience that people would prefer to stick to their own misinformed opinion than seek the truth. I cannot tell you how many times I've heard people tell me that I'm not Christian because I'm Catholic.

 

Hello? That little wafer and grape juice you call a symbol Christ we truly believe is Jesus present among us? That we're the oldest Christian faith tradition on the planet and all the others are fallen away groups who left in protest of the Church (hence the term "Protestant")? That the intercessory prayers we seek from our spiritual ancestors (saints) is nothing different from asking your local prayer chain to offer prayer on your behalf? That Mary is beloved because she is the first to say yes to Christ when she agreed to carry Him?

 

Catholics and other Christians sects have a lot in common, but sadly, most prefer to seek that which divides, not which unites.

[moimeme]

ah, but moi, it's been my experience that people would prefer to stick to their own misinformed opinion than seek the truth

 

Yup. I know. It's real depressing.

 

but sadly, most prefer to seek that which divides, not which unites

 

Humans have quite the way of finding reasons to dislike each other, it's true.